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Official Smash for Switch 2 - Speculation & Discussion Thread

LiveStudioAudience

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Years before I discovered tiers lists, I loved Mewtwo in Melee, just for sheer aesthetics. The telekinetic control of fighters for grabs and the visual floatiness of him made him feel like distinctly cool character. Of course, he's completely impractical for competitive play I realize now, but there's a unique aura to him few other Smash figures have even these days.

As far as Punch Out vs ARMS in terms of being fighting games, I can see the argument more for the latter than the former. There's a greater ease for competitive multiplayer and an approach to ARMS that at least feels adjacent to traditional fighting titles. Punch Out is an odd case because it's really belonging to a genre (arcade boxing game with a puzzle like approach to enemies) that doesn't really exist all that much these days, and so fighting game is about as close as a contemporary genre there is to describe it.
 
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Ivander

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insert joke about the Game Awards here
They are the joke. :4pacman:
Plot twist: we get ARMS 2, and they add the OG cast to Mario Kart as guest characters to promote it.
I'd be good with them. Though no joke, it'll be bizarre looking at the ARMS cast without their signature namesake, despite the fact that they do have artwork of them having normal arms.

I get the ARMS are supposed to be more akin to a superhero transformation, aside from Mechanica who uses a Mech and Twintelle whose ARMS ability manifested with her hair instead, but it's still bizarre seeing the likes of Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Min-Min and whatnot with just plain normal arms and just imagining them riding a kart with them instead of their ARMS just looks weird in my mind.
 
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Watuna4343

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I guess my thoughts on Min Min have always been that she is a 50/50 character. Here's the thing for me, even with her being a 1st party character representing a franchise all by herself (and a fighting one at that), her staying power rests almost fully on ARMS as a franchise. Here's the thing, for me if ARMS gets ANY kind of future content (and I am not just talking necessarily about a new game, but like even a Switch 2 edition of ARMS would be sufficient) then Min Min is very much coming back. But if ARMS is so dead that we leave it behind and Min Min being in Smash truly was a last minute effort to push the franchise... I think that she moves down the priority list by a lot and can absolutely see her miss out on the new game.
 

SharkLord

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They are the joke. :4pacman:

I'd be good with them. Though no joke, it'll be bizarre looking at the ARMS cast without their signature namesake, despite the fact that they do have artwork of them having normal arms.

I get the ARMS are supposed to be more akin to a superhero transformation, aside from Mechanica who uses a Mech and Twintelle whose ARMS ability manifested with her hair instead, but it's still bizarre seeing the likes of Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Min-Min and whatnot with just plain normal arms and just imagining them riding a kart with them instead of their ARMS looks weird.
They do still have ARMS, they just contracted them to normal length. You can still see Max Brass and Lola Pop have their active (And Dr. Coyle, but she built her ARMS herself so you'd be forgiven for assuming she wanted to show them off). It's just that most people are wearing fancy clothes that either A: have full sleeves, or B: are the same color as their ARMS, so it makes them less noticeable.
 

Thegameandwatch

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Well, with what I said initially above as well as the second thing, I would say that, assuming Mewtwo was hated more competitively than casually, that still did not mean he was cut for being a bad character. There are different reasons.

In fact, I am sure Sakurai did not like the idea of Smash being competitive at all. That is why he added random tripping in Brawl where Mewtwo was cut from.
If cuts were about competitive then there is chance that Meta Knight would have been cut in Smash 4 but that’s unlikely regardless because of Sakurai Bias.
Given that he was planned to be in Brawl, it's likely that good ol' time constraints is what got him out, especially since he actually had some work done based on what was found.

Sakurai doesn't look at public perceptions as reasons to cut characters.
I hope we get more information in general but Sakurai doesn’t mention scrapped characters that much unless it’s relevant.

I think the reason why nothing was leaked is because stuff related to Smash are presumably either with the main developers such as HAL in the older games or Sakurai whose company is always listed since Brawl. Nintendo probably has stuff but not as drastic.
 

Ivander

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They do still have ARMS, they just contracted them to normal length. You can still see Max Brass and Lola Pop have their active (And Dr. Coyle, but she built her ARMS herself so you'd be forgiven for assuming she wanted to show them off). It's just that most people are wearing fancy clothes that either A: have full sleeves, or B: are the same color as their ARMS, so it makes them less noticeable.
So what happens when the sleeves are off?

Those clearly look like normal arms. Especially notable when Min-Min comes back after her reveal where her arms are different.

You can clearly see the springs on her arms in the latter, but not in the former, which makes her arms beforehand look like perfectly normal arms.
 
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GoldenYuiitusin

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So what happens when the sleeves are off?

Those clearly look like normal arms. Especially notable when Min-Min comes back after her reveal where her arms are different.

You can clearly see the springs on her arms in the latter, but not in the former, which makes her arms beforehand look like perfectly normal arms.
Technically that's not even supposed to be possible.

From what I understand, someone who has ARMS would have them unravel and be limp if they're not wearing the mask.

So by her trailer's logic, she didn't even have her ARMS mutation until snatching the invite.
 

Will

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I still think it'd be pretty cool to see the Elder Scrolls represented in Smash somehow, especially Oblivion. But DOOM probably has a better chance of getting in as Bethesda representation.
Unless Oblivion Remastered finds its way on Switch 2, I think the Dragonborn would still remain the strongest TES candidate.

What would you even name the Oblivion character? “Imperial”? :191:
 
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fogbadge

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Technically that's not even supposed to be possible.

From what I understand, someone who has ARMS would have them unravel and be limp if they're not wearing the mask.

So by her trailer's logic, she didn't even have her ARMS mutation until snatching the invite.
yep. sakurai does that at times
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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nsert joke about the Game Awards here
I knew someone would go for that. :4pacman:

So what happens when the sleeves are off?

Those clearly look like normal arms. Especially notable when Min-Min comes back after her reveal where her arms are different.

You can clearly see the springs on her arms in the latter, but not in the former, which makes her arms beforehand look like perfectly normal arms.
Likely a creative liberty to have this "she was there all along?!" moment.

Unrelated but that is a wonderful outfit for Captain Falcon. Man needs his own restaurant ASAP.
 
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chocolatejr9

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Technically that's not even supposed to be possible.

From what I understand, someone who has ARMS would have them unravel and be limp if they're not wearing the mask.

So by her trailer's logic, she didn't even have her ARMS mutation until snatching the invite.
Boy, I hope someone got fired for THAT blunder...

(Sorry, had to make that reference, I know Smash takes creative liberties a bunch.)
 

Ivander

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So by her trailer's logic, she didn't even have her ARMS mutation until snatching the invite.
"I am Min-Min, owner of the secrets of Mintendo Noodle House. These are Captain Falcon and Kirby, my fearless friends. Fabulous secret powers were revealed to me the day I held aloft my SB Invitation and said "By the power of Smash Bros! I HAVE THE POWER!""
Unrelated but that is a wonderful outfit for Captain Falcon. Man needs his own restaurant ASAP.
I think he did in the anime when undercover. Including his own uniform.

Heck, someone even did an artwork of Falcon and Min-Min in their restaurant outfits.
 

Pupp135

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While ARMS doesn’t seem to have the brightest future at the moment, I could see Min Min return to help provide a somewhat contemporary angle to the roster. In this case, Min Min is the only playable character from an IP that debuted during the Switch era, which is something that I don’t see being heavily expanded upon in the next game (The main frontrunners here are Ring Fit Adventure and potentially Astral Chain). This distinction could help add value to Min Min going forward.
 

Nabbitfan730

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I forgot to post this video before but Source Gaming has returned with their Fighter's Spirit series.

It's to speculate new characters and how they would function but honestly, i think there is more intrigue in analyzing the characters we have already, how they function and what purpose they serve on the roster gameplay-wise.

Also another way on uncover how other characters can work as well.

 

Louie G.

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I think people are far too doom and gloom about Min-Min. I don't like using this excuse because I think certain conventions will be broken as we'll be losing more characters than usual next game, but Min-Min really does not mark a single box of what a typically 'expendable' character would be.

ARMS is the most recent IP on the roster, with Min-Min being one of the only Switch-era characters added to Smash thus far. Assuming next game wants to focus on looking ahead and implementing new faces, it would be somewhat counterintuitive to get rid of one of Nintendo's latest new properties while subbing them in with idk, Officer Howard or whoever. Instead I feel like you'd want to hold onto what little Switch content we have right now and keep expanding on that. Nintendo isn't really pumping out IP the way they used to anyway.

It's also a non-retro, in-house IP. The only Nintendo series that has been spliced from the roster so far is Ice Climber for technical issues. This is NOT saying that we won't lose any of the first party IP next game, when conditions will be extremely tight. However I don't think ARMS would be the first series they deem to be expendable - instead, I do think eyes would wander toward the less active 'retro' series. I think the condition of "if there's an ARMS 2" is really only relevant for the distant, distant future of Smash 7. For now it's in a perfectly solid position. Maybe not a "lock" but I think sitting more comfortably than some.

And gameplay wise, like her or not, Min-Min is unique. She's kind of a pseudo stance change, distance demon character and while I would love to see her iterated on further to be more engaging I think her gameplay is at least something Sakurai and the team might believe in. If we're weighing out gameplay roles and roster dynamics, she's kind of an interesting presence even if you hate her guts. I think she's at least owed a second pass in Smash 6 and then we can truly judge if this character is a lost cause. As we all know by now being a nuisance or a dysfunctional mess isn't enough on its own to be cut loose.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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The weirdest thing about these guy's ARMS is that their normal arms are fully intact while retracted and then just disappear when they stretch back out. You can see it in this image where both characters have well defined musculature on their arms as if they were just wearing tight sleeves, and you can even see Master Mummy's skin under the bandages on his right arm. Meanwhile, his left arm just kinda...doesn't exist. This also doesn't appear to impact his strength at all since he's crushing a metal support beam with it.
1745888240878.jpeg

I am pretty sure they did. In fact, I am pretty sure if I recall that Mewtwo was among the bottom tiers on the tier list, if not THE bottom tier.
The biggest issue with Mewtwo in Melee was with how slow he was in both attacks and speed. You could easily attack him while he's starting up most of his attacks and he was slower than most other characters. He also had a Forward-Air that required you to be very precise to hit with it.
He became a much better character in Smash 4 simply because he got a much needed speed boost for his attacks and general speed and got a much more forgivable Forward Air. He's not the best in Ultimate, but he still feels very playable because he can move fast and he can actually hit other characters.
I knew he was bad in Melee, but I was more thinking along the lines of the issues people take with the move concepts he has. More specifically, the tail attacks, and how all of his special moves (except Shadow Ball) take inspiration from garbo Pokémon moves.
 
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Ivander

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I knew he was bad in Melee, but I was more thinking along the lines of the issues people take with the move concepts he has. More specifically, the tail attacks, and how all of his special moves (except Shadow Ball) take inspiration from garbo Pokémon moves.
Complaining about the tail attacks seems weird when in Gen 2, he could learn Iron Tail. And the Special moves's effects and whatnot were clearly taken from the anime, where they were portrayed as powerful compared to the games(And even then, in Gen 1, Confusion was a pretty good move early on, especially if you got either a Butterfree or an Abra and manage to evolve it into Kadabra very early).
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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I think she's at least owed a second pass in Smash 6 and then we can truly judge if this character is a lost cause. As we all know by now being a nuisance or a dysfunctional mess isn't enough on its own to be cut loose.
Entirely fair point.

We can say Lucario's Aura and Mac's entire design ****ing suck ass because we've had to deal with them for multiple games.

Min Min's only got this one game and while her design is very extreme, I do feel like it's only a few specific things that are outright terribly to deal with (mostly Ramram tbh) and she isn't nearly bad enough to warrant the "iredeemable" label either. Give her one extra game.
 
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ninjahmos

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I think Min-Min's best chance of making it into the next Smash game is if ARMS gets a sequel before the next Smash game is even announced or teased.

That being said, if Min-Min does make it into the next game…I still think Twintelle would make a pretty good second ARMS rep.
 

Idon

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I knew he was bad in Melee, but I was more thinking along the lines of the issues people take with the move concepts he has. More specifically, the tail attacks, and how all of his special moves (except Shadow Ball) take inspiration from garbo Pokémon moves.
This is why I loved his representation in Pokken.

He uses a TON of moves, many you wouldn't expect for a psychic alien thing.

The "shadowball" is just a basic move for Mewtwo, but for specials he pulls out the BIG GUNS like Hyper Beam, Focus Blast, Fire/Ice/Thunder Punch, Psycho Cut, the SIGNATURE MOVE Psystrike, and even has a Barrier counterattack that leads to either Drain Punch, Telekinesis, or Confusion.

And if we include Shadow Mewtwo, even more cool moves are used like Zen Headbutt and Earthquake.

Really shows off its terrifying potential power and versatility beyond smash which is really just using its physical characteristics with the movepool of a damn Abra.
 
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SharkLord

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I haven't given much thought to Mewtwo, and his moveset is probably why. Much of his popularity seems to come from his title as the strongest Pokemon, a monster created in a lab with immesurable power (Plus his villanous but tragic role in the movie). Smash doesn't have much room for character work, and he's kinda relegated to just being the funky tricky guy. I haven't been into Pokemon in a long time, so with just the Smash incarnation to go off of, he doesn't leave much impact on me
 

Louie G.

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I actually don't mind Mewtwo's tail attacks, but I'd like to see a revamp that puts Mewtwo's threat level on par with someone like Sephiroth. I think Sephiroth really raised the bar for flashy, boss / god-level attacks and it's something I think certain characters like Mewtwo and Palutena could take some pointers from and gain some more sauce. They feel weirdly restrained for... well, what their characters actually are. And I'm not talking about 'modernizing' them by making them mechanically complex or anything, Sephiroth is probably one of the more straightforward DLC newcomers.

Like in Palutena's case... she's fine, she's got some attacks that feel apt (up smash is cool!), but then the best we've got is... auto reticle, counter, teleport. I'm still a little disappointed that they opted for the lamest default attacks instead of retooling some of the really flashy ones like say, Heavenly Light which feel way more evocative of Palutena as a character and her dynamic as a goddess. Mewtwo has pretty much the same issue, down to THREE of his special attacks being conditional non-offensive moves (which they at least walked back for Palutena by marrying Reflect / Counter and giving her Explosive Flame).

And unfortunately I think part of the issue is these aforementioned moves are not visually interesting. Mewtwo waves his hand. He glares at you. He teleports. Maybe putting some more oomph into some of these animations, and adding some extra effects could help move the dial on this but I can't really blame anyone for not feeling too strongly about Mewtwo in his current state. I just like him a lot because I already like Mewtwo... and he is fun, but I feel like a lot of his attacks leave something to be desired and could be far more rewarding to land.
 
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Idon

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Entirely fair point.

We can say Lucario's Aura and Mac's entire design ****ing suck ass because we've had to deal with them for multiple games.

Min Min's only got this one game and while her design is very extreme, I do feel like it's only a few specific things that are outright terribly to deal with (mostly Ramram tbh) and she isn't nearly bad enough to warrant the "iredeemable" label either. Give her one extra game.
I disagree I think. Those characters suck because they suck fundamentally. Whether we're with them for 1 game or 3.

There isn't any way that I can think of where that type of design is well-implemented whether they be bad characters (Lucario/Little Mac) or good ones (Min Min). Imagine a world where we live in with a "toned down" version of her moveset, it's still not engaging or interesting or fun. Smash already only has like 25-ish moves, making it so that 20 of them are the same move with permutations and that move being "Get away from me" isn't something I'm interested in exploring further.

That said, a character being obnoxious or poorly designed to me has never stopped anyone in Smash from returning or being significantly changed. Sonic the Spindash has spent nearly 20 years doing the same thing that nobody likes and he's here forever.
:4pacman:
 

Louie G.

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That said, a character being obnoxious or poorly designed to me has never stopped anyone in Smash from returning or being significantly changed. Sonic the Spindash has spent nearly 20 years doing the same thing that nobody likes and he's here forever.
:4pacman:
Yeah, this was mostly what I was getting at with it. I honestly don't have a whole lot of faith in a Min-Min rework that I'd actually be happy with, or enjoy playing all that much. But her playstyle simply being unpopular is demonstrably not a death sentence, and being the sole representative of a modern Nintendo IP makes her feel all the less expendable compared to hypothetically characters within substantial series like Mario, Pokemon etc who could suffer from this issue.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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I think for the most part Smash has a hard time selling the power of its strongest characters, which does kind of hurt it's character design since a lot of these guys have "powerful" as their power fantasy. Of these kinds of characters:
  • Ganondorf does have the raw power he should, but gets bullied by most of the cast in just about every game.
  • Mewtwo is a proper glass cannon, but the attack concepts of his normals don't really flex that power. I do think his special moves are way better in this regard than people give them credit for however.
  • Meta Knight is the most powerful swordsman, able to defeat threats powerful enough to destroy existence, and after Brawl his moveset really lacks oomph.
    • Once could argue that Kirby is just as powerful, and they would be right, but Kirby's power fantasy relies more on power stealing and being cute, and he has both of those aspects down pat, so I don't think this really harms him.
  • Rosalina is probably the first "basically a god" character that hits this mark, though their power is visually softer than the others so it's a bit easier; They were able to pretty much just give her sparkly princess magic and then add the ability to summon galaxies on top of that, which does admittedly go super hard.
  • Palutena is also kind of supposed to be on the lighter end, but underneath her comedy is supposed to be a very competent goddess that could absolutely destroy you if she wanted, and I'm not sure she quite hits that mark.
  • Sephiroth's animation and attack concepts display his power really well, but in practice it's kind of hard to hit anyone with him so it's kinda wonky in execution.
  • Aegis works pretty well with Pyra being part heavy and both her and Mythra having attack concepts that feel quite powerful.
  • Kazuya...Well he can't not feel powerful when everything he does makes opponents virtually disappear so...
 
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Louie G.

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Mewtwo is a proper glass cannon, but the attack concepts of his normals don't really flex that power. I do think his special moves are way better in this regard than people give them credit for however.
Well, I actually like Disable quite a bit and I have no real issues with Shadow Ball. Confusion and Teleport are fine on paper, but I think we've gotten to the point where moves like this are so prevalent that Mewtwo's versions feel kind of basic. It's an unfortunate byproduct of "roster creep". Back in Melee a lot of what Mewtwo was doing made it stand out more, but nowadays it gets muddled in with characters who do the same thing and often do it better or cooler.

I'm not sure what I'd suggest these moves are changed to, if anything. But I think he lacks some visual flair that would go a long way in making Mewtwo feel more threatening and compelling. Then again I think MOST characters could use a visual overhaul, since many of them are still touting recycled animations from Brawl. It's just that Mewtwo, for all that it is, feels especially lacking in "oomph" for a LEGENDARY Pokemon.
 

SharkLord

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I think for the most part Smash has a hard time selling the power of its strongest characters, which does kind of hurt it's character design since a lot of these guys have "powerful" as their power fantasy. Of these kinds of characters:
  • Ganondorf does have the raw power he should, but gets bullied by most of the cast in just about every game.
  • Mewtwo is a proper glass cannon, but the attack concepts of his normals don't really flex that power. I do think his special moves are way better in this regard than people give them credit for however.
  • Meta Knight is the most powerful swordsman, able to defeat threats powerful enough to destroy existence, and after Brawl his moveset really lacks oomph.
    • Once could argue that Kirby is just as powerful, and they would be right, but Kirby's power fantasy relies more on power stealing and being cute, and he has both of those aspects down pat, so I don't think this really harms him.
  • Rosalina is probably the first "basically a god" character that hits this mark, though their power is visually softer than the others so it's a bit easier; They were able to pretty much just give her sparkly princess magic and then add the ability to summon galaxies on top of that, which does admittedly go super hard.
  • Palutena is also kind of supposed to be on the lighter end, but underneath her comedy is supposed to be a very competent goddess that could absolutely destroy you if she wanted, and I'm not sure she quite hits that mark.
  • Sephiroth's animation and attack concepts display his power really well, but in practice it's kind of hard to hit anyone with him so it's kinda wonky in execution.
  • Aegis works pretty well with Pyra being part heavy and both her and Mythra having attack concepts that feel quite powerful.
  • Kazuya...Well he can't not feel powerful when everything he does makes opponents virtually disappear so...
Yeah, Kirby is insanely powerful, but aside from minigames like Megaton Punch, he's not overt about it. His truly crazy moves are usually relegated to his strongest copy abilities. Most of his power is shown just by defeating powerful eldritch horrors, or through statements offhandedly noting "by the way this guy has infinite power."
 

Thegameandwatch

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how all of his special moves (except Shadow Ball) take inspiration from garbo Pokémon moves.
Some of the special moves in general in lot of the earlier games were unusual such as some just having original moves such as Peach and Luigi's side specials. It still happens but it's more rare unless a character doesn't as much moveset potential. Alolan Whip is one of the exceptions.

We can say Lucario's Aura
Lucario feels like an example where they designed a mechanic rather than a character since Aura is too centralized.
 

Thegameandwatch

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I think we may have discussed this before but…how many characters' movesets do you think actually need to be reworked/revamped?
Probably examples that are commonly mention such as Ganondorf, Sonic, Lucario, Little Mac, Min Min and etc.

I think lot of characters just need to be updated or get new moves rather than being revamped.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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The thing about Mewtwo is that it'd be way too powerful if made closer to canon. A balance would be nicer, but it's forgetting the intent behind it; the moves used, bar Disable at best, make a ton of sense for their purposes. Confusion is a powerful move at the time, and the way it's used heavily fits the anime inspiration. Teleport is a blatant Up B option. Shadow Ball is actually still good too. The tail attacks are a good way to give it reasonable appendage usage that's easy to animate. The elemental attacks show that it's a versatile Pokemon(though this is somewhat more Mew's things, but it was cloned from Mew, so it still works out).

The glass cannon thing isn't that accurate. It doesn't have massive power. By being a floaty character, this means that they're designed to... be knocked around a tad easier. Floating implies a bit of lightness weight-wise, especially since you can't directly grip the ground since you're outright hovering above it. This is actual reasonable game design. Note that those with special jumps don't always float like Mewtwo does, so they have a different defense option in return. Though it can vary(as some still may have lower defense due to having better jumps so they're more balanced out in a platform fighter and all).

Mewtwo does need more power, imo, to counter balance the particular defensive style and floatiness. But beyond that, it's fine. I'm sure Disable could be changed up better, and Confusion not reflecting a projectile is a bit odd(though considering in the anime it was mostly to move said projectile to the side or pick up a character and throw them aside, it's actually very accurate to its design. The fact it is fairly meh at throwing the enemy is where I feel it could be fixed up. The way it handles projectiles is fine, though. It's a good contrast to how it isn't using a regular Reflector nor was intended to).

---------------

As for others, I don't think anyone should be outright redesigned. It misses the point. Now, updated so they work better is fine. Little Mac having a horrific air game is unnecessary. It doesn't need to be awesome either. Sonic is an oddball in that the point behind the two spins were that he was good at being fast and could throw people off their game by having two very similar moves that worked differently. This concept is fine. He's actually a fairly good character anyway. He's literally 2nd in the Ultimate Tier List. It's clear that he doesn't need changes to make him good. The only real thing he could have at most is nerfs, honestly. Steve/Alex is a different mess that has a problematic tech(which did lead to some banning it or the character) that would be nice to remedy for the next game.

Lucario I like the idea, but I do feel it needs more non-aura moves as strong options so it's not Aura or Bust. This also could be a good case for having something like an alternate playstyle(not as an Echo, of course) that would focus on a different way to play. Of course, this is probably never going to happen anyway, so it doesn't matter, heh. That said, my only thought on Ganondorf is his inability to reflect a projectile. That's kind of a major thing that would vastly help him(and he's already at his most viable since Brawl with Ultimate's buffs and unique mixups he now has). Otherwise, Up A is a pretty bleh move in practice(it's kind of okay at edgeguarding, but it has zero super armor, making only Warlock Punch something that at least encompasses his massive power and is actually usable thanks to that super armor).
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
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I think thats only in Melee since it was fixed in the later games to work like a regular reflector unless you mean something else.
Nah, tis what I meant. It was a pure oddball in Melee only(though only cause other moves properly reflected, but that said, it was more faithful in Melee, but way worse in return). It's why I don't think being faithful is that important compared to making a flowing moveset. Most characters flow as intended, it's just some will never be good due to how the meta works. Generally, in an item-based game, the whole tier list would be shuffled around(though some will still have an advantage, like Sonic's speed makes getting items way easier), which is closer to what the balance was intended as. Ultimate still holds this, though it and 4 were clearly also balanced to make single play work well respectively. Thank you, Bandai-Namco, for changing it up so both core ways to play are done well~
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I think we may have discussed this before but…how many characters' movesets do you think actually need to be reworked/revamped?
At a glance my thoughts are something like this:
Good:
:ultfalcon::ultcloud::ultduckhunt::ultfox::ultgreninja::ulticeclimbers::ultincineroar::ultjigglypuff::ultjoker::ultkrool::ultmarth::ultgnw::ultness::ultpeach::ultpokemontrainer::ultsquirtle::ultivysaur::ultpyra::ultrob::ultroy::ultsheik::ultsimon::ultsnake::ult_terry::ultvillager::ultwolf::ultyounglink::ultzss:
Tweak Mechanics:
:ultbanjokazooie::ultcorrin::ultdoc::ultfalco::ulthero::ultike::ultkazuya::ultlucas::ultminmin:ultpichu::ultpiranha::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultmythra::ultridley::ultrosalina::ultryu::ultken::ultshulk::ultrichter::ultsora::ultsteve:
Overhaul Visuals:
:ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultdiddy::ultdk::ultmegaman::ultolimar::ultwiifittrainer:
Change A Move or Two:
:ultganondorf::ultkirby::ultlink::ultluigi::ultmario::ultmewtwo::ultbrawler::ultgunner::ultswordfighter::ultolimar::ultdaisy::ultzelda:
Overhaul Moveset:
:ultkingdedede::ultlittlemac::ultlucario::ultmetaknight::ultsonic:
Not Sure What They Need:
:ultbayonetta::ultbowser::ultbowserjr::ultinkling::ultisabelle::ultlucina::ultpacman::ultpalutena::ultpikachu::ultcharizard::ultrobin::ultchrom::ultsephiroth::ultsamus::ultdarksamus::ulttoonlink::ultwario::ultyoshi:
My Hatred for Byleth's Moveset Direction is Irreconcilable with my Philosophy of not Taking Character Gimmicks Away so all I Can Say is that He's Fine I Guess:
:ultbyleth:
I feel I kind of need to explain a lot of these placements, as two characters can be in the same tier for completely different reasons and some don't neatly fall into any single category, but ain't no way anyone's reading my post if I write a full length novel. lol

That kinda sounds like fun though. Maybe I should do one at a time character writeups.
 
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