Smash Bros vs. Playstation All Stars

[Dark Phazon]

Looool Wow...

 

[El Duderino]

To each their own.

Funny you should say that. Those are the same exact words that make your whole pursuit of using sales to define quality pointless.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Every time I skim over the smash 4 board, it's always smashchu vs the world LMAOOOOO

 

[Biz_R_0]

I got PS All-Stars for Christmas and I was playing it earlier today. Actually not bad, although if you didn't like Brawl you'd probably hate this. I played Kratos, Parappa, and FP so far. Kratos is ****ing awesome, Parappa is really fun and not super OP like I thought he'd be, and FP...I didn't care for her.

 

[Crispy4001]

Beiber being bad is not an opinion. Not having taste nor recognising basic aspects that go into music theory and creation isn't an opinion, it's simply wrong.

That implies that he writes all his own material.

Should also be said, pop music usually isn't heavy on the theory. What people like/hate about it comes down more to the lyrics, melody and mixing.

 

[flyinfilipino]

The point I'm trying to make is aggregate quality. This means I can say one game is higher quality because more people find the product of high quality and bought it as a result. Games that can't sell have less quality.

Um, isn't that just aggregate demand? Sure, more people wanted to buy the product, but why? Total sales don't mean anything to each individual customer and have nothing to do with the value they find in the product. There are two different definitions of quality floating around here, yet you're only choosing to acknowledge one for the sake of this argument.

To each their own.

Truth is, everyone is the same.

And finally, this basic contradiction here, as El Duderino offered, is what undermines your whole argument, and no amount of attempting to sound like an elite businessperson is going to change that. (I mean, really?) If you can't get past this, then there really isn't anything to talk about.

 

[3Bismyname]

I got PS All-Stars for Christmas and I was playing it earlier today. Actually not bad, although if you didn't like Brawl you'd probably hate this. I played Kratos, Parappa, and FP so far. Kratos is ****ing awesome, Parappa is really fun and not super OP like I thought he'd be, and FP...I didn't care for her.

yeah i dont like FP either. however i am personally not a fan of Kratos either but maybe that's just cause i dont like GOW. my top 3 characters are Spike, Cole, and Ratchet and Clank.

 

[MarioNPinkie]

i like to play as heihachi parappa and sly cooper i fully havent gotten the chance to play with every single character just yet (part of it is due to me not having my own copy of the game) but those 3 i really like as of now

 

[Opossum]

From what I played, Sackboy, Kratos, and Parappa were pretty fun.

 

[Ferio_Kun]

Beiber being bad is not an opinion.

I would need some clarification on how Beiber being bad is not an opinion...

Seems like a pretty blatant opinion to me?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I would need some clarification on how Beiber being bad is not an opinion...

Seems like a pretty blatant opinion to me?

I'm sure we can find scientific data such as wave structures in the songs having negative connotations on the humans psyche

 

[El Duderino]

Sure, more people wanted to buy the product, but why?

Perceived quality. The buisness definition clearly states perceived quality may have little to do with the actual excellence of the product. With that in mind, it is impossible to use resulting sales as an absolute measurement of quality.

Sorry SmashChu, unless you want to argue against the definition, it's over.

 

[Dark Phazon]

This thread should be renamed ''L-Cancel Argument part.2.

 

[SmashChu]

Good luck with that business model of yours, SmashChu. I sincerely hope it works out for you and Chu-Chu Ltd..

You do realize your saying "Oh, I hope your business model of treating customers like smart savvy buyers and giving them products will work out for you (idiot.)"

The customer is always right is rule #1 in any business (which is why Grocery store regurgitate it over and over). Being rich isn't hard. It's quite simple actually. But you have to be smart or get ready to get your *** handed to you. I can tell Kink-Link that you'd fail quickly, mostly because you don't respect the very people who pay your bills. Customer are right. Period. What they say goes. If they like X, give them X. Your comment about people liking a certain artist (really, could be anyone, but for this run, it was Beiber) are tasteless shows your ignorance.

I'm writing this as a cautionary tale more than anything. There is a lot of money in this world that is waiting for a good owner. Also, at the same time, we are going into the greatest depression we have ever seen (it will make the 1930s look like good times). There will be no middle class; there will be only the rich and the poor. Financial education will only become even more important. That's why I implore you to listen and understand this. I don't think you or anyone else cares about learning, only about being right. The irony is that those people are often wrong. So learn something about money. Wouldn't hurt.

 

[Inawordyes]

I got PS All-Stars for Christmas and I was playing it earlier today. Actually not bad, although if you didn't like Brawl you'd probably hate this. I played Kratos, Parappa, and FP so far. Kratos is ****ing awesome, Parappa is really fun and not super OP like I thought he'd be, and FP...I didn't care for her.

yeah i dont like FP either. however i am personally not a fan of Kratos either but maybe that's just cause i dont like GOW. my top 3 characters are Spike, Cole, and Ratchet and Clank.

When I first played, I went through and played a match with everybody to see how it was, and I didn't much care for FP either. But then a did a super-long AI match and used FP as my character, and I figured out during the course of the match how she plays and her type of style. I won that match in the end, and I now consider FP one of my favorite characters to play as, now that I have a grasp on her controls. Dante will always be my favorite to play, though, because his style is right up my alley.

Of course, this is just my opinion and personal experience. I wouldn't dare attempt to detract from the wonderfully-enlightening discussion about why PSASBR sucks. [/sarcasm]

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I just found out they make Microsoft Office for Macs.

That is so weird.

It reminded me of this thread

 

[Kink-Link5]

That implies that he writes all his own material.

Should also be said, pop music usually isn't heavy on the theory. What people like/hate about it comes down more to the lyrics, melody and mixing.

Thank you for elaborating on my point, and yes, I meant the music itself, obviously. I'm sure Justin himself is a nice and warm-hearted individual.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Thank you for elaborating on my point, and yes, I meant the music itself, obviously. I'm sure Justin himself is a nice and warm-hearted individual.

You mean the incarnation of everything wrong in the world when you say a nice, warm-hearted individual...right?

 

[Kink-Link5]

I don't know, he seems to put on a pretty good facade as a decent and humble human being in his interviews and public appearances.

Just because he makes pop music doesn't make he himself a bad person.

**** music and ****ty personality would be like, Stefani Germanotta.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I heard if you play his songs backwards it opens a portal into the 7th level of hell

 

[Biz_R_0]

@inawordyes Don't get me wrong, she's not bad, I just don't like her.

I played a little more today, here are my thoughts:

Killzone guy: ****ing awesome, can build meter and kill really well without even touching the guy, with a great juggling and escape game.

Sweet Tooth: Also awesome, great zoning game with good kill moves. Also I need to play Twisted Metal and I really wish this guy was my ice cream man.

Sly Cooper: ...Sorry. I love Sly more than anyone else n this game combined, but I wasn't partial to his playstyle. It's definitely very well put together, but it's just not my style.

Nathan Drake: This guy is awesome. Great guns, awesome specials. My only problem is that his level 1 is abysmal.

After playing a bit more, I discovered how OP Kratos is NOT. He's great, but he has the problem of not being able to KO very well, especially in multiplayer. His level 1 is not good. It's rather easy to dodge, doesn't have priority, and can only be comboed into from a full charged down-circle. In addition, his level 3 is easy to run away from as Kratos is pretty slow. However, multiple things can seamlessly combo into level 2, which is also great for punishing, and he has a wall combo that gives him almost a full bar, so he's still good.

But what I REALLY want to talk about is Raiden, more specifically his level 2. To save us all some time, I'm going to list all the things it DOESN'T guarantee a kill through combo or frame trap:
-up throw
-all three jab combos (although you can interrupt it after the first jab, for a frame trap)
-aerial up square
-side circle

And that's it. Not only that, but you're fast and can OHKO everything for a period of time, and you can use the circle button to stun. 11/10 too stronk.

I'll try out the Coles in the morning.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If you're using Raiden's level 2 at all you're doing it very wrong. He has easy hitconfirms into his level 1 and builds enough meter to get it in a very fast combo. Couple with the fact that it kills ****ing everybody the thing is very easily his most cost-effective super.

Fat Princess is great in one on one, where her frame traps, spacing tools, and slow-but-steady chipping work wonders. In FFA she's a little more awkward since her highest meter outputs are also her most open moves. She's pretty crap in doubles.

Cole has ridiculous mobility. He dominates stock matches since only the fastest and most effective characters can even touch him. Evil Cole seems to be by far the most capable of taking a 2v1 situation.

 

[Biz_R_0]

If you're using Raiden's level 2 at all you're doing it very wrong. He has easy hitconfirms into his level 1 and builds enough meter to get it in a very fast combo. Couple with the fact that it kills ****ing everybody the thing is very easily his most cost-effective super.

If you're good, level 2 can kill up to three times in 1v1, I'd say that's well worth it. Although, his level 1 is definitely awesome, and I'd like to know about these hit confirms. Also, can you block level 1?

Cole has ridiculous mobility. He dominates stock matches since only the fastest and most effective characters can even touch him. Evil Cole seems to be by far the most capable of taking a 2v1 situation.

Can't wait to try 'em out, as pretty much everyone who's winning is either using one of them, Raiden, Sasuke Uchiha new Dante, or Kratos.

 

[Kink-Link5]

You can't block any supers in PSA.

I don't know much about the hit confirm, but I think it involves either his down throw or whatever it is where he stabs the enemy and they slowly drop to the floor. I've not played as him to know what move is what, but saw his ridiculousness when Joker's buddy was using him.

Sir Dan is so fun it's so sad that he's atrociously terrible and plays in slow motion.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I think that's his forward. However, that's one move and one kill. Level 2 works with almost every move and is anywhere from 1 to 3. They're both excellent, though.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It's pretty easy to get the confirm is the point, and easy to build meter up to it.

If one move or tactic is good enough to so everything you need, dismissing it as just being one thing is silly. It's the utility that counts. Whether that utility comes from looking for openings using minion fireballs, frame trapping with a barrel, or using high mobility to secure hits one at a time, the matter is that the job gets done.

Trust me, this experience comes from playing with a level 999 Raiden. It's good, it's effective, it's quick, and it's easy to initiate.


Also remember that building the first meter is much faster than the second and third, so having a good level 1 is an extremely strong tool.

 

[Biz_R_0]

And if you knock someone down with a level 1, they're ****ed. Yeah, level 1 is more practical, although level 2 is still excellent on its own merit and might be worth investing in if you're down a few stocks.

I'm thinking of writing a guide to Kratos after I get some more time in.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I just feel like if you're in a situation where you need to recover a stock defecate, being good with 2 level ones is more efficient and desirable than using a level 2 that leaves you open to counter-supers (recall that level 2 supers are NOT invincible). If you're in a more desperate situation where you have a level 2 ready and are low on time, you're better off just getting a long combo to use your level 3 to freeze the clock (and prevent counter-supers). Not everyone can have Parapa's awesome level 2 or Drake's phenomenal coverage to prevent counter-strategies at all.

 

[Biz_R_0]

But you can freeze people with level 2, all but nullifying the freezing issue. And level 3 adds that stupid mix-up box bull**** that wastes a bunch of time and makes it so you can't combo into it, unlike level 2.

 

[SmashChu]

It look like everyone wants to talk about the game, so it's a good time to leave this topic. I will finish with this. Maybe it will make what I was trying to say clearer.

One of the things I wanted to do, but couldn't, we talk about why the game did badly. Unfortunately, I have to start with the basics. You can't run before you walk. So things like "customers buy what they like, they don't buy what they don't like," are the foundation of what would be more interesting to talk about. Sadly, no one here really got it (except for a person or two. I did get a PM from someone). I think one problem is people look at this from a philosophical stand point and not a business stand point. They see the world as how they think it should be, not how it is. This is why one person said that an artist he didn't like was bad and it was a fact. Any third grader would have told you that was an opinion. But when your context is out of whack, then the rules of the world are different and usually off. I'm going to try and finish the basics and see if they make sense.

A lot of people said "Hey, you can't look at one thing and make an argument about it." The truth is, you can. It depends on hat your talking about. Let say I wanted to judge a company. What might I look at. A lot of people would tell me many different things. But there is really only one thing I need. It's called Net Income. This is, "Is the company making money." No income means they wont survive. Funny enough? Guess what the first line is of an income statement? Yep. SALES. You can see why this is so important. Net Income keeps a company viable and augments their equity (which is what the owners actually own). It's the whole reason people invest in companies and make them. To make a profit. Sales are the first line in that. If I want to tell how well a game did, look at sales. If sales are good, the company makes a lot of money and can keep making games. If the company has bad sales, they will not be able to fund the games and may go under.

The next step is to ask why. Again, I wasn't able to get here as the above didn't make sense. From looking at Smash Brothers sales, I can ask "why." Everyone know I say Smash shouldn't be competitive. Well, this is why. Smash Brothers has great sales. What does it do differently? It's not competitive friendly game. Sakurai has stated "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years." Her pretty much answered my question. Here is why sales are important. If Smash was more competitive friendly, it's sales would decline. i can tell this because the games that do do this have weak sales (they are beaten by WWE and Naruto games). This means Nintendo can not fund Smahs like they did before. The games will naturally get smaller as will the player base. With Smash being profitable (making Net Income), Nintendo can get companies like Namco to develop it as well as have as long as they want to make it and can add a lot of stuff to it. One of the problems Sony Smash had is it lacked the financial backing. Given, it could have done better on it's own accord (Smash 64 had a weak budget), but it doesn't help the product.

Lastly, "sales equal quality," is analytical. It simply states that "People buy things they like, and they don't buy thinks they don't like." I know this is true because the people who argue against it follow the same rules. I have yet to hear someone say they buy things they hate, yet they will claim everyone does. I mentioned people have a philosophical context. They see the world as they think it should be. As a result, it typically happens that they say anything that isn't successful that they don't like lacks quality and the people who like it are no better than barbarians. This is also called rationalization. They want to believe it is bad and it sold because it's bad qualities. They don't want to believe that it is successful because it's good. However, someone liking something is an opinion, so they can't be wrong for liking it. Still, some people assert that they are wrong for liking it. However, in a logical world, it would make sense that people send money on music and books (something they don't need to survive) because they like it. If this is true, then successful products are good products. Again, this is because people buy what they like. If it sold better, it mean more people liked it. If it sold less, it means fewer people didn't like it. It's very simple. People do not argue this from a logical stand point, but from a moral stand point.

Sony Smash is a case study more than anything because of it's poor sales. It tried to make a Smash like game and make Smash like sales, but it came up very short. The goal is to understand why. To judge a product, it would make the most sense to look at the product itself. Looking too much at other factors is poor analysis because it doesn't look at the root of the problem. Remember, the audience is always right. To be successful in business, you need to understand this.

I wrote a lot, but I hope more people become encouraged about business and look into it. Most people I'm sure could not read financial statements. Sadly, you too have a financial statement. If you do not understand it, you will be poor. Instead, learn and become rich.

 

[3Bismyname]

Who cares. Wasn't this thread started as a mere comparison of the two to see if any of the things featured in battle royale could similarly be implemented into smash. We aren't here to talk about sales, we're simply here to talk about what we like about both games and see if either could learn from another

 

[Biz_R_0]

Good Cole is a-freakin'-mazing, great level 1 and can get a whole meter in no time. I'm gonna go try Evil Cole in a bit.

And I'm still waiting on those hit confirms, Kink.

 

[3Bismyname]

Yeah the Coles are pretty well liked overall.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

Occam's Razor: The simplest answer is the best.

This is the part where I just forever regard you as a complete, irreparable moron. I'm not even going to bother with the rest of your post. I'm afraid it will include stupidity of this magnitude.

I'm a philosophy major where logic and argumentation are one of the most fundamental things taught (and a physics major too where Occam's Razor is used extensively). Let me tell you, if you were to take even the most basic logic class (even PHI 101 mentioned it), you would know that you're using the term for Occam's Razor incorrectly and you would know how truly disgusted academics are at helpless pseudo-intellectual morons like you that misuse the term to justify fallacious reasoning.

Occam's Razor DOES NOT state that the simplest answer is the best.

What Occam's Razor truly says is to not include unnecessary agents in the explanation of something that can be sufficiently explained without it. The razor applies against things such as mind-body dualism, magic, karma, gods, ghosts, etc. For example, if consciousness and emotions can be sufficiently explained through neuroscience and the physicality in the brain, then there is no need to add unnecessary concepts like spirits or the devil's influence or magic monsters or whatever people come up with.

Occam's Razor would never support oversimplification fallacy, otherwise it would even be taken seriously by anyone and you would have never heard of it.

Please, just stay away from the internet, get an education before speaking, and learn your place.



Edit:

Okay, I read the rest of the post and it's not as bad. It's just another typical run-of-the-mill buffoon that went into a major for babies that teaches things that are obvious, pretends that knows something that we don't, and likes to confuse money-making strategies with what the scholars like to call LOGIC. Not even an intelligent businessman either since any businessman worth his weight has truer insight to causation and correlation than this dip****. "Oh boy, Occam's Razor derp herp. let's get rid of the marketing team!"

Actually, I don't even think he's a business major because he's using the wrong terms and follows them in non sequitur. I mean, from his claim about quality (which is false, hence Chinese exports and Wal-Mart have an industry) does not follow the "derr customer be alwys rite" platitude, which he's taking too literally. Customer walks in believing my good burgers should be only 1 cent, then he's leaving my location in humiliation. Sounds like SmashChu is one of those wannabe business majors, which is just harsh.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Well, what logic is there in getting a philosophy degree?

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

Well, what logic is there in getting a philosophy degree?

For one, it's the major that teaches logic. (Particularly useful for the people that just weren't born with the gift.)

I'm one of those rare people that value the truth, practicing proper reasoning, and understanding the world better rather than talking out of my ***, confusing pretending to be intelligent with no effort or sacrifice with being truly intelligent, and making the world a dumber place like some other notable characters in here.

And the physics major is a little bit in the same vein, but focuses more on the fundamental contingency in the universe, more complex reasoning and science, and it also has more numerous and credible job opportunities.


Philosophy and Physics are the grandmasters of all majors and fields. Get at me.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Well, what logic is there in getting a philosophy degree?

So you can wave it in people's faces during arguments.

Alright, tested out Evil Cole and he is the ****. Awesome finishers and can build like crazy. However, I'm sticking with Kratos, who is not OP stop johning.

I have to make a retraction; Sweet Tooth is underpowered. He has awesome finishers but no reliable way to build and his circles aren't great aside from down circle.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

So you can wave it in people's faces during arguments.

This is also true. It saves me quite a lot of time to help people know their place and little they truly know with one sentence.

 

[El Duderino]

Occam's Razor DOES NOT state that the simplest answer is the best.

Pretty much explains where the logic ends with many of SmashChu's arguments. In an attempt to simplifly the situation, he overlooks key details, in this case customer perceived quality, that would otherwise prevent him from making the lopsided defacto conclusions he favors.

I really wish SmashChu's theories were the only examples of overzealous sales interpretation out there, but it certainly is a trap plenty of game publishers fall into as well.

 

[nessokman]

let me just say these-

Sony has a habit of blatantly knocking off Nintendo products. (Mario kart, wii, SMASH)
They tend to love knocking off the other company thinking "hell it worked for them so it will work for us." They then go off making knockoffs.

While this could work for them, they seem to always go off making knockoffs NOT KNOWING why it worked for Nintendo. It worked because everyone recognizes the characters.If you know Mario, you probably know peach, luigi, bowser, and donkey kong (Mario used to be his enemy) if you know DK, you've probably heard of DKC so you know diddy.

The characters in a sense are part of a large family that everyone knows, minus the games nobody cares about now (Ice climbers, rob, etc.) You have to be an old long time sony fanboy to know some of these characters in PSABR, there is where they messed up sales wise.

And whats with having to finish others with specials? Way to screw the competitive scene before it forms. (probably what sakurai will do to screw the competitive scene in ssb4)

there is my opinion, anyone care to rebut?