Event - Apex 2015 Smash Bros. for Wii U & Melee (Disrespect)

[MegaSilver]

I am gonna go out on a limb here.

I enjoy smash 4 as a game, and i enjoy watching matches they CAN be very entertaining.

But as viewer I feel melee just is more entertaining to watch. i think its more important for the smash 4 community to persevere and prove itself by having players develop there game and start finding strats to deal with HOO HAH then it is to worry about what melee fans think. if you are asking for respect and things like that i am not sure what to tell you.

Melee is like basketball, smash 4 is like hockey. When they are sharing the same stage some people are going to get irritated that there game isn't up. smash 4 has the skills to make it on its own and is a cool game. It's the communities job to put THAT out first and foremost. Just play the game. if people don't come around then thats just life. Every community has disrespectful fans woop de doo.

I think that's totally cool and fair. My only problem is when you have a group that are actively trying to destroy every new game that comes out, or making mod games that have become so widely accepted that they're usually in tournaments or even have a slot here on the boards for your main in that mod.

From someone who's honestly never played Project M...was it necessary? Why not just keep playing Melee? Was Project M's real reason for being to splinter the Brawl community? That's what concerns me.

 

[Zork]

I think that's totally cool and fair. My only problem is when you have a group that are actively trying to destroy every new game that comes out, or making mod games that have become so widely accepted that they're usually in tournaments or even have a slot here on the boards for your main in that mod.

From someone who's honestly never played Project M...was it necessary? Why not just keep playing Melee? Was Project M's real reason for being to splinter the Brawl community? That's what concerns me.

Project M is fine and a great game. I don't know what you mean by necessary, no game is necessary. But PM is literally the only Smash game that listens to the competitive fan base and has loads of features and nods to the competitive community. One cannot blame Smash 4 for there being no PM at Apex, that was because of Nintendo.

 

[Small Waves]

Smash 4 tested the patience of many that night. While the Melee top 48 brackets were something that you could objectively lay the blame on due to sloppy scheduling, the Sm4sh quarters were a drone. We saw Dabuz win by time out back to back. We have seen many of the BO5s reach their fifth round. Match lengths up until the finals averaged around 4:30, which is still quite rare in Melee even with characters who slow down the game due to the neutral game becoming a spaghettifest with Peach, Jigglypuff, or Samus on the field.

After people have grown out their beards nice and thick throughout the entire top 8, we come to finals. Naturally, with what we have seen so far, this should go on for a long time, but instead, it was over in a flash. Dabuz, the man with the half hour sets, was effortlessly rolled 3-0 in less stage time than it took for the Pacman to get a round off him. It showed that while you COULD win by running the clock, you would be doing everyone else a huge favor by stop being campy and kick their teeth in. Three hours of buildup and it was over just as quickly as Melee Paragon finals, with two matches going to less than two and a half minutes and the last closing out before the clock struck below 4. I think that's what REALLY got people angry. We had these looooong sets that resulted from people walking on eggshells only to see him get his face rolled in.

I hate Diddy. I REEEEEEEEEEEALLY hate Diddy, but by the end of it, I was rooting for Zero since he demonstrated that Sm4sh does not have to be slow and campy. The man who built up a nasty reputation of running down clocks in Brawl and even at the International made the Apex finals look like he was sandbagging a locals. Given that many of these other players were former Brawl players and a Melee player or two in the brackets, there was seemingly no excuse as to why this had to move at a snail's pace since not even Mr. Time-Out himself tried to use the clock in his favor.

 

[Zork]

On a lighter note I found the surprisingly well coordinated HOO HAHs to be entertaining and personally would probably enjoy it if it happened to me. They even started happening in Melee later lol. Probably the only thing that the crowd did that added to Smash 4 instead of taking away from it.

 

[Squii The Fish]

But that's just it. Smash 4 viewers had to wait for their top 8 for even longer as all the Melee winners bracket matches were being streamed.

They actually finished up to top 8 in the afternoon and it was like 7PM when top 8 finally started on the mainstage.

Now were any of these viewers heckling Melee players that were on stream in the meantime?

this is going to sound kinda mean.

But i feel that smash 4 could have gone a lot smoother for everyone if it had its own stage and stream. mind you i wasn't there for the big ole brawl/melee split but from people's responses I don't think it would be a bad thing if they were both going on at the same time.

Worst case scenario VGbootcamp and Spooky get more youtube views so people could watch both tourneys

I think that's totally cool and fair. My only problem is when you have a group that are actively trying to destroy every new game that comes out, or making mod games that have become so widely accepted that they're usually in tournaments or even have a slot here on the boards for your main in that mod.

From someone who's honestly never played Project M...was it necessary? Why not just keep playing Melee? Was Project M's real reason for being to splinter the Brawl community? That's what concerns me.

Ah in regards to P:M that is kinda a different subject bro. But no at the end of the day P:M is a different game from Melee. And a really good one too. I feel you should get the 3.5 hackless build and play it for a while before making any comments on Project M. It's literally free. But do what you want no biggie.

And while I never was a big member of the brawl community I have heard that the game had a couple of things going for it that killed it, one of things is that the game kinda devoured itself or so i hear. i am completely uneducated though so take that with a grain of salt. If P:M did it then you all should have kept playing brawl instead of moving over to the new, exciting and fun new game.

 

[byebye]

On a lighter note I found the surprisingly well coordinated HOO HAHs to be entertaining and personally would probably enjoy it if it happened to me. They even started happening in Melee later lol. Probably the only thing that the crowd did that added to Smash 4 instead of taking away from it.

sure - this was very applicable to foxes uair which is as abundant as diddy's uair.
HOO HAH HAH HAH HAH

 

[MegaSilver]

Ah in regards to P:M that is kinda a different subject bro. But no at the end of the day P:M is a different game from Melee. And a really good one too. I feel you should get the 3.5 hackless build and play it for a while before making any comments on Project M. It's literally free. But do what you want no biggie.

I have nothing against it. I'm just saying from the perspective of someone who's never played it, from a distance, that's what it seemed like.

Believe it or not, Smash 4 kinda got me back into Smash. I really liked Brawl, but I fell out of it fast, unlike Melee, but 4 has me hooked all over again. That's the only reason I missed out on Project M. It was a bad timing thing. I should definitely check it out, especially if it's that easy to get access to.

 

[Zork]

sure - this was very applicable to foxes uair which is as abundant as diddy's uair.
HOO HAH HAH HAH HAH

Yeah I don't get why people love it when that happens but hate on Diddy so much. Funny thing is Fox's version is actually better. It's a true combo at kill percents unless the Fox player messes up. Sure it can be a bit hard to do at times but that doesn't make it any less guaranteed.

On the other hand the Diddy has to space himself perfectly to frame trap a potential air dodge and even if he does everything right (spacing, reacting to the DI etc.) he STILL might not get any followup if they DI perfectly. Indeed that's why I think Diddy won't be as strong in the long run. Right now no one is DIing the down throw properly.

Of course I would agree that Melee/PM Fox is infinitely more entertaining than Smash 4 Diddy atm. But once people learn the matchup and start DIing better, Diddys will have to start getting creative instead of relying on the same 2-3 seemingly OP options right now.

 

[MeteorD]

It's not like I can blame them for the vocal complaints. Losing an entire day kind of changed the entire schedule altogether, having to sit through Top 8 Sm4sh was frankly painful. It's not even that I dislike it, the Shiek mirror and Zero vs m2k was pretty interesting, and alot of matches in pools were nice to watch.

Regardless of whether it went overtime or not, there were so many things going on in the top 8 Melee that people wanted to see the outcome for, getting mad over having to sit through something entirely different just to get to it is silly to say the least. I'm not blaming Sm4sh players, since all of this was due to losing the 1st day of Apex, but claiming this is "the true colors of Melee players" is absolutely stupid. Not wanting to be bored out of your skull is an entirely justifiable reason for complaining, nobody would've been complaining about Sm4sh going on for too long if it wasn't for how defensive the current meta is.

 

[Small Waves]

sure - this was very applicable to foxes uair which is as abundant as diddy's uair.
HOO HAH HAH HAH HAH

I think I heard it during Melee several times when Sheik went for dthrow to fair.

 

[MegaSilver]

 

[Squii The Fish]

Separate streams would have been nice.

i see where D1 is coming from but....
This is video games and money not civil rights LOL

 

[Ulevo]

They will do it again though.



... there is. Just wait a couple of weeks or months if you can't see it yet. There's already massive Smash 4 hatred going on on social media by Melee folks and it's bound to get worse unless the melee community starts to change its ways.

And why is it that the Melee community is the only one that has to start changing its ways? This thread is proof that the Melee community isn't the only potential issue; the entire community is.

Yes, the audience whined about the Melee finals being delayed. But why is it being interpreted as hate towards Smash Wii U? Maybe those people were really hyped, love Melee, and having to wait was a buzz kill. I really enjoy Smash Wii U, but I was disappointed that they halted the finals just like the crowd was. But suddenly this is taken as hate?

Believe it or not, not everyone that loves Melee hates everything else, and that opinion has to change from you guys. Pointing fingers only goes so far.

All that said, I still don't see a community divide. The community divide happened because Brawl was a **** game, and SWU is not. I feel they can coexist just fine.

 

[Ragemos]

It was my first time attending Apex. I'm a newbie in the smash scene and am trying to play competitively. Well... yeah I did feel that the matches were taking long, being as how they were best of five. Though I was still enjoying it. My heart dropped as soon as I heard the Melee chant. As others jumped from their chairs chanting I stayed in my seat frustrated. As hype as Leffen and Mango's match was, It still was sad to see the crowd become an angry mob of screaming kids just to rush into melee. I deeply am disappointed and I'm sure Nintendo was watching. This BETTER stop, otherwise we'll undoubtedly see the Smash scene divide and crumble.

 

[pokemario]

We have a serious problem on our hands. I know it, you know it, and it doesn't matter what side of the coin you're on, the whole concept of #OneUnit is a complete and total lie. Rewind the clocks a little bit to January 30th 2015. APEX 2015 was just about to begin and we almost had our event shut down. As a community, Twitch.TV, Red Bull, all the fans, we rallied together to revive what could have been a fallen tournament series. APEX is a grand celebration of everything Smash Bros. and how far we have come. We're sponsored by Nintendo. We're crowning new champions and harboring amazing upsets.

That takes us to Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, live on stream, 80k viewers strong going through finals. And what does the community do? Slander the game and make calls for Melee, WHILE THE EVENT IS GOING ON. This isn't just Twitch people. The live crowd turned into a Twitch chat full of live stream monsters. Whatever your preference is, the Melee community is showing just how big they are by putting themselves out there like this.

https://twitter.com/progducto/status/562097970955714560

This HAS to stop. The exact same thing happened in Brawl's time when the game first came out. It needs to be addressed and it needs to be taken care of. SOMEHOW. I'm not a big name in the community, but we gotta step up together. I'm losing hope, but I'm hoping for a miracle that can prove me wrong that we can't be One Unit.

Enjoy your Melee, ladies and gentlemen. It's gonna be hype. But at what cost? By trying to undermine and make your fellow game a joke.

I love SM4SH, equally to Melee. In the chat, I was exclaiming that Melee and Sm4sh should be on separate streams, so everyone could get there chance. I was very angry that Melee started at about 11:30. I do think SM4SH should always be best 2/3, 3/5 is way too much. I was annoyed, NOT HATING ON ZERO'S WIN. I'm glad he won, but I felt it was a slap in the face for us who have to do stuff on Monday, and preferring to watch it before 11:30. The stream chat pissed me off, but SM4SH not being on a separate stream from Melee also ticked me off. Way too long to put them on the same one.

 

[SmashChu]

It's not like I can blame them for the vocal complaints. Losing an entire day kind of changed the entire schedule altogether, having to sit through Top 8 Sm4sh was frankly painful. It's not even that I dislike it, the Shiek mirror and Zero vs m2k was pretty interesting, and alot of matches in pools were nice to watch.

Regardless of whether it went overtime or not, there were so many things going on in the top 8 Melee that people wanted to see the outcome for, getting mad over having to sit through something entirely different just to get to it is silly to say the least. I'm not blaming Sm4sh players, since all of this was due to losing the 1st day of Apex, but claiming this is "the true colors of Melee players" is absolutely stupid. Not wanting to be bored out of your skull is an entirely justifiable reason for complaining, nobody would've been complaining about Sm4sh going on for too long if it wasn't for how defensive the current meta is.

There is not liking a game and acting like an ass because you don't like a game. Image going to CEO or EVO next year and having everyone yell "STREET FIGHTER" and "WHENS MARVEL." They don't do that even though Melee delays games at those tournaments. What do you think those people feel like when they have to sit through something entirely different, twice (CEO had Project M and Melee). Melee delayed the entire tournament and I know this wasn't the only time. See, that's the issue. When it happens to other games, no one says anything. Yeah, they may be upset, but they wont ruin the experience for everyone else. When Melee players don't get what they want, they try to ruin the experience for everyone else. They act like little kids and throw a temper tantrum.

If you are so bored by Smash 4, go somewhere else. Don't sit there and act like a spoiled little kid. I heard people were being disrespectful to Zero when he one. I'm not his biggest fan, but you shouldn't try to spit on someone like that. it's disrespectful. The reason we are saying "the true colors of Melee players" is because Melee players are acting like little kids. If you don't have something nice to say, keep it too yourself. The Melee community's actions were unjustifiable, plain and simple.

 

[Mayday]

It's not about which game is better, it's about respecting both communities and the people within them

 

[pokemario]

We have a serious problem on our hands. I know it, you know it, and it doesn't matter what side of the coin you're on, the whole concept of #OneUnit is a complete and total lie. Rewind the clocks a little bit to January 30th 2015. APEX 2015 was just about to begin and we almost had our event shut down. As a community, Twitch.TV, Red Bull, all the fans, we rallied together to revive what could have been a fallen tournament series. APEX is a grand celebration of everything Smash Bros. and how far we have come. We're sponsored by Nintendo. We're crowning new champions and harboring amazing upsets.

That takes us to Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, live on stream, 80k viewers strong going through finals. And what does the community do? Slander the game and make calls for Melee, WHILE THE EVENT IS GOING ON. This isn't just Twitch people. The live crowd turned into a Twitch chat full of live stream monsters. Whatever your preference is, the Melee community is showing just how big they are by putting themselves out there like this.

https://twitter.com/progducto/status/562097970955714560

This HAS to stop. The exact same thing happened in Brawl's time when the game first came out. It needs to be addressed and it needs to be taken care of. SOMEHOW. I'm not a big name in the community, but we gotta step up together. I'm losing hope, but I'm hoping for a miracle that can prove me wrong that we can't be One Unit.

Enjoy your Melee, ladies and gentlemen. It's gonna be hype. But at what cost? By trying to undermine and make your fellow game a joke.

My second direct reply to this first post.

(THIS IS POVERTY CHAT BTW) There was one thing in the chat that really pissed me off. In the chat, I was saying that they should be on separate streams, while everyone else was ******** about how "bad" SM4SH is. I made a constructive post saying why I like SM4SH and why people should respect it even if not liking it. I then got a comment that almost made me cry, if someone said this out of pure opinion, then I would at least somewhat respect it. But this person said one of the most hateful things he could possibly say. This is the closest I remember the post being.

"@Pokemario24 STFU you ****ing casual, why don't you just play Mario Party. This series of games is ****, overall, the Smash series is a ****ing piece of garbage. The only good game in the series just happened to be a shining piece of gold. Melee is fast and great, SM4SH is just a slow piece of ****."

Where do I start? Where do I genuinely start? If someone thinks Melee is the only good game, FINE. IF YOU JUST COME OUT AND SAY THAT THE ENTIRE SERIES IS GARBAGE OVERALL AND MELEE IS A SHINING PIECE OF GOLD, THAN THAT'S FINE. BUT IF YOU GENERALLY SAY THIS IN THE MOST OFFENSIVE WAY POSSIBLE, THAT'S DISRESPECT. I don't get offended easily, I barely get offended at all, this didn't even offend me. But this just made me lose hope in some people. This comment was not offensive, it was hope depriving.

IMO: =>>
My opinion. No **** you's, no casual hate, no disrespect.

 

[SmashChu]

My second direct reply to this first post.

(THIS IS POVERTY CHAT BTW) There was one thing in the chat that really pissed me off. In the chat, I was saying that they should be on separate streams, while everyone else was *****ing about how "bad" SM4SH is. I made a constructive post saying why I like SM4SH and why people should respect it even if not liking it. I then got a comment that almost made me cry, if someone said this out of pure opinion, then I would at least somewhat respect it. But this person said one of the most hateful things he could possibly say. This is the closest I remember the post being.

"@Pokemario24 STFU you ****ing casual, why don't you just play Mario Party. This series of games is ****, overall, the Smash series is a ****ing piece of garbage. The only good game in the series just happened to be a shining piece of gold. Melee is fast and great, SM4SH is just a slow piece of ****."

Where do I start? Where do I genuinely start? If someone thinks Melee is the only good game, FINE. IF YOU JUST COME OUT AND SAY THAT THE ENTIRE SERIES IS GARBAGE OVERALL AND MELEE IS A SHINING PIECE OF GOLD, THAN THAT'S FINE. BUT IF YOU GENERALLY SAY THIS IN THE MOST OFFENSIVE WAY POSSIBLE, THAT'S DISRESPECT. I don't get offended easily, I barely get offended at all, this didn't even offend me. But this just made me lose hope in some people. This comment was not offensive, it was hope depriving.

IMO: =>>
My opinion. No **** you's, no casual hate, no disrespect.

Like I said, they aren't Smash Bros fans, they are Melee fans. People are going to have to recognize it.

I do think that, at a minimum, the games will need separate streams.

 

[pokemario]

Like I said, they aren't Smash Bros fans, they are Melee fans. People are going to have to recognize it.

I do think that, at a minimum, the games will need separate streams.

At the time, I was angry at GimR. I was angry with him and I said a few things I regret towards him. Nothing horrible like the chat, but it wasn't pleasant. I do think they should have had separate streams, I have school on Monday :I

 

[Darklink401]

I feel Dabuz was the only really campy guy there who bogged it down. The chat was actually rooting for him to lose.

Amsa's matches were exciting. Mr R vs Nietono was SO good, cuz it was fast AND you can tell they were thinking VERY deeply about everything. (at least, I was on the edge of my seat)

Abadango's matches went on for a bit, but they were simply fun, like Megaman vs Pacman

And of course....6WX...like...Sonic tho. Gotta go fast.


Mr R vs Jtails though, had me more hype than ANY match I saw that night. It was SO good, and made me realize that, this metagame, when it reaches its full potential, will be VERY fast. Zero also showed that.

But hey, I could be wrong.

Seein this turn into Melee vs brawl again tho, would be a shame.

 

[anikom15]

I'm tired of the Smash 4 side painting Melee fans as instigators when we just wanted to watch our favorite players at a reasonable hour.

 

[Darklink401]

I'm tired of the Smash 4 side painting Melee fans as instigators when we just wanted to watch our favorite players at a reasonable hour.

That is NO excuse for the childish, nay, HATEFUL way in which they acted.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm tired of the Smash 4 side painting Melee fans as instigators when we just wanted to watch our favorite players at a reasonable hour.

-We- wanted to watch Smash 4 at a reasonable hour.

I had to sit through Melee because Smash 64 took over Smash 4's stream (which I had no problems with), and I went and did something else during that time. Melee is cool but it doesn't get me hyped.

Did we **** on Melee for taking so long? No. We let it go through because we respect Melee as a game. The only thing we want is the same in return.

And I want to reiterate again, this is not the only time this has happened.

 

[Squii The Fish]

-We- wanted to watch Smash 4 at a reasonable hour.

I had to sit through Melee because Smash 64 took over Smash 4's stream (which I had no problems with), and I went and did something else during that time. Melee is cool but it doesn't get me hyped.

Did we **** on Melee for taking so long? No. We let it go through because we respect Melee as a game. The only thing we want is the same in return.

And I want to reiterate again, this is not the only time this has happened.

So what your saying is....

Spoiler

Melee is sometimes a turable turable makah?

 

[Mom?]

There are a few key things that I've read over and over again in this thread that are really starting to bother me as a melee player.
First off, let me tackle the argument that the melee "community" is toxic.

This is not a "silent majority vs. vocal minority" argument here. The vast number of people being incredibly disrespectful in the crowd and on the stream are not even really proper members of the community. I can safely bet that only a small portion of the people in the twitch chat have ever been to a tournament, let alone place well or are active members in their local communities. A very similar thing can definitely be said for the crowd (though obviously all of them attended apex at the very least). I reside in Colorado, and we have a very strong melee PM and smash 4 scene, and a lot of our best players play all 3 (including 64, though that game is struggling here). Even if they only play one game you rarely see people just outright bashing the other entries. The majority of the players here that bash on brawl or smash 4 are new the scene (or post hate in our facebook group and never show up to events.... sound familiar?), whereas nearly all of our relevant players are incredibly supportive of the other games.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's far more likely that the "spectator community" is way more toxic than the actual real community comprised mostly of respectful, wonderful, and passionate players. Twitch chat is always disgusting, you can go on any stream with over 1000+ people and see this. I'm not sure if the chat was in slow mode + sub only, but if it wasn't then you have your problem there. VGBC also needs way more dedicated mods willing to dish out the ban hammer, and this is a big issue for most large streams. Hell, even AGDQ which is a charity event had atrocious mods and a toxic chat. As it stands the chat for apex was some of the worst I've ever seen, and that needs to be fixed.

The melee community is not going to die anytime soon though, and it baffles me that people are even suggesting that. Melee (and smash in general) has almost always been an incredibly small grassroots community, only in the past few years has it grown to such incredible heights. Even if it stops getting such high attendance or viewers, the core passionate community is going nowhere.

So, yes... Most people can agree that the crowd and chat were disgustingly rude and disrespectful... but please stop saying that most of them are key to melee's community because they most certainly are not. The big question for the next major is this... should smash 4 and melee be on separate streams/stages for top 8, or should they be on the same main stream/stage? Regardless of the answer, the streams need better mods and at least sub mode to make sure it doesn't become too toxic. As for really rude audiences, I really don't know how to fix that aside from separating the two games entirely.

 

[Darklink401]

There are a few key things that I've read over and over again in this thread that are really starting to bother me as a melee player.
First off, let me tackle the argument that the melee "community" is toxic.

This is not a "silent majority vs. vocal minority" argument here. The vast number of people being incredibly disrespectful in the crowd and on the stream are not even really proper members of the community. I can safely bet that only a small portion of the people in the twitch chat have ever been to a tournament, let alone place well or are active members in their local communities. A very similar thing can definitely be said for the crowd (though obviously all of them attended apex at the very least). I reside in Colorado, and we have a very strong melee PM and smash 4 scene, and a lot of our best players play all 3 (including 64, though that game is struggling here). Even if they only play one game you rarely see people just outright bashing the other entries. The majority of the players here that bash on brawl or smash 4 are new the scene (or post hate in our facebook group and never show up to events.... sound familiar?), whereas nearly all of our relevant players are incredibly supportive of the other games.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's far more likely that the "spectator community" is way more toxic than the actual real community comprised mostly of respectful, wonderful, and passionate players. Twitch chat is always disgusting, you can go on any stream with over 1000+ people and see this. I'm not sure if the chat was in slow mode + sub only, but if it wasn't then you have your problem there. VGBC also needs way more dedicated mods willing to dish out the ban hammer, and this is a big issue for most large streams. Hell, even AGDQ which is a charity event had atrocious mods and a toxic chat. As it stands the chat for apex was some of the worst I've ever seen, and that needs to be fixed.

The melee community is not going to die anytime soon though, and it baffles me that people are even suggesting that. Melee (and smash in general) has almost always been an incredibly small grassroots community, only in the past few years has it grown to such incredible heights. Even if it stops getting such high attendance or viewers, the core passionate community is going nowhere.

So, yes... Most people can agree that the crowd and chat were disgustingly rude and disrespectful... but please stop saying that most of them are key to melee's community because they most certainly are not. The big question for the next major is this... should smash 4 and melee be on separate streams/stages for top 8, or should they be on the same main stream/stage? Regardless of the answer, the streams need better mods and at least sub mode to make sure it doesn't become too toxic. As for really rude audiences, I really don't know how to fix that aside from separating the two games entirely.

It was sub mode for a lot of it.

Also I'd say same events is fine, but DEFINITELY different streams. I don't even see why mix them up XP

 

[aethermaster]

I'm just gonna say this. Make of it what you will.

I remember M2K saying very recently that he's getting tired of Melee because he's getting bored of the MUs whereas sm4sh he feels like the MUs are fresh and bring something different. This couldn't be said in Brawl because literally half of all the viable MUs included Meta Knight in it and Meta Knight completely dominated from the start. Not everybody is using Diddy Kong as people are thinking either which is why this top 8 had a series of different characters. I'm not gonna speak for m2k and say he's gonna switch over completely to sm4sh, but think about he said about the game that makes it different.

Before you guys think I'm bagging on Melee, I'm really not. It is an amazing game and one that is getting bigger and more hype and all of that is great and all. I enjoyed it a lot more than sm4sh myself, and I don't even play Melee anymore. But immediately dismissing 4 as a Brawl clone where:

• A lot of the cast are viable. Olimar was considered BOTTOM tier because nobody took the time to learn him
• Movement on the ground is faster overall than Brawl
• There's no "Meta Knight" like character (Diddy is not that)

Also, as an added note, Melee fans totally pissed off my local smash scene. I live in Norcal by the way and I read HUNDREDS of FB comments by people who were not very happy with how Sm4sh was treated at the venue. Remember that part of a good community is a good local scene for tournaments so take that as you will.

TL;DR Let both games be played.

 

[Blubolouis]

Relevant Melee figures (and that DEFINITLY includes players) would have to say something about these matters, and these opinions shared through social media and smashboards if we want to see things change (kinda like this twitter post by prog that someone posted in this thread). The crowd reactions on one part and the supposed agressiveness of the melee fanbase towards the other smash fanbases on the other would have to be adressed.
Because nobodies discussing these matters won't change a damn thing, it'll stay the same old smashboards rambling it's always been and no one will change their opinions or behaviours.

Even with that, I doubt it'll actually be possible to change this type of negative behavior. Partly because as melee grows older while maintaining/increasing its player base and hype, its bad representatives and vocal (supposed) minority feel more confident to openly hate on the other games.

 

[Dragoomba]

Why do people cry about diddy but in melee all you see is fox or falco?
Armada droped peach beacause fox is the best character in the game.

Lol, create an account just to make one uninformed post. Seems like somebody didn't watch Melee top 8, you do know a Marth won APEX right?

 

[Darklink401]

Lol, create an account just to make one uninformed post. Seems like somebody didn't watch Melee top 8, you do know a Marth won APEX right?

I mean let's be honest here, Fox IS the best character in the game.

Marth just happens to have a good matchup against Fox, but its still very volatile.

Also PPMD is insane with those dash dances.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lol, create an account just to make one uninformed post. Seems like somebody didn't watch Melee top 8, you do know a Marth won APEX right?

Both are wrong here to be quite frank.

Everyone in the top 4 still used Fox or Falco to a degree. You can call him a Marth main but he still used Falco to some legitimate extent. The Rest not so much, so he is wrong on that account. Hell aMSa got 5th with Yoshi of all characters.

Even in Smash 4 only 4 people in the top 16 used Diddy. The only reason people were salty is because a Diddy who with or without Diddy was by far better than all of the other players at APEX and it showed.

 

[platomaker]

I watched smash 4 on stream. When that was interrupted, I stopped watching.

 

[Darklink401]

Both are wrong here to be quite frank.

Everyone in the top 4 still used Fox or Falco to a degree. You can call him a Marth main but he still used Falco to some legitimate extent. The Rest not so much, so he is wrong on that account. Hell aMSa got 5th with Yoshi of all characters.

Even in Smash 4 only 4 people in the top 16 used Diddy. The only reason people were salty is because a Diddy who with or without Diddy was by far better than all of the other players at APEX and it showed.

I'd say Mr R was just a step below him tho.

If he had played just a bit more on point, he coulda taken it.

 

[byebye]

Lol, create an account just to make one uninformed post. Seems like somebody didn't watch Melee top 8, you do know a Marth won APEX right?

Let's set something straight.

Melee top 16
9 unique chars
12 of 16 players uses either Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik
6 of those uses Fox. then 4 Marths and 3 Shieks
only 4 players do not use the top characters (Puff, Yoshi, Pika, Ice Climbers)

Sm4sh top 16
17 unique chars
4 of 16 used diddy, 3 of 16 used Shiek

 

[MegaSilver]

There are a few key things that I've read over and over again in this thread that are really starting to bother me as a melee player.
First off, let me tackle the argument that the melee "community" is toxic.

This is not a "silent majority vs. vocal minority" argument here. The vast number of people being incredibly disrespectful in the crowd and on the stream are not even really proper members of the community. I can safely bet that only a small portion of the people in the twitch chat have ever been to a tournament, let alone place well or are active members in their local communities. A very similar thing can definitely be said for the crowd (though obviously all of them attended apex at the very least). I reside in Colorado, and we have a very strong melee PM and smash 4 scene, and a lot of our best players play all 3 (including 64, though that game is struggling here). Even if they only play one game you rarely see people just outright bashing the other entries. The majority of the players here that bash on brawl or smash 4 are new the scene (or post hate in our facebook group and never show up to events.... sound familiar?), whereas nearly all of our relevant players are incredibly supportive of the other games.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's far more likely that the "spectator community" is way more toxic than the actual real community comprised mostly of respectful, wonderful, and passionate players. Twitch chat is always disgusting, you can go on any stream with over 1000+ people and see this. I'm not sure if the chat was in slow mode + sub only, but if it wasn't then you have your problem there. VGBC also needs way more dedicated mods willing to dish out the ban hammer, and this is a big issue for most large streams. Hell, even AGDQ which is a charity event had atrocious mods and a toxic chat. As it stands the chat for apex was some of the worst I've ever seen, and that needs to be fixed.

The melee community is not going to die anytime soon though, and it baffles me that people are even suggesting that. Melee (and smash in general) has almost always been an incredibly small grassroots community, only in the past few years has it grown to such incredible heights. Even if it stops getting such high attendance or viewers, the core passionate community is going nowhere.

So, yes... Most people can agree that the crowd and chat were disgustingly rude and disrespectful... but please stop saying that most of them are key to melee's community because they most certainly are not. The big question for the next major is this... should smash 4 and melee be on separate streams/stages for top 8, or should they be on the same main stream/stage? Regardless of the answer, the streams need better mods and at least sub mode to make sure it doesn't become too toxic. As for really rude audiences, I really don't know how to fix that aside from separating the two games entirely.

Okay, this is what I was trying to get at before by saying it's not everyone who plays Melee, and calling it "Melee players" is wrong. Obviously you're not one of these hecklers, made even more evident by the fact that you didn't end this entire post with "But I just think people were frustrated by..." as a backhanded justification for being obnoxious. So you're proof that it's not everyone.

Twitch chats are Twitch chats, the really concerning thing is when you have paying spectators or registered and paid players at an event heckling. What is it that makes them act this way so in your face against Smash 4 players (and Brawl before them)? Obviously its not all Melee players, as every big one I saw that was prominently featured at APEX didn't even say anything about Smash 4...which is fine. They don't and shouldn't have to weigh in on a feud.

Nobody's asking Melee to die or go away. We just have to figure out why we have a group of people, vocal minority or silent and vocal majority, that feel the need to try to tear down every new game that comes out in the series because its not as close to Melee as Project M is.

Also, for the record, I did download PM last night and play around with it, so now I see what it is finally.

 

[FormlessD]

I don't understand why any Melee fans feel threatened by Smash 4. Melee's huge and has a hardcore fanbase, and I think many of them due to the technical play would rather keep it hardcore. These people aren't just gonna migrate to Smash 4 and forget about Melee because they play differently. Yeah M2K didn't get top 4 but he chooses to play other games and has for a while, also sick kappa.

For those talking about how they have to sit through a certain game -- the rest of FGC does this for Grand Finals and for the most part respects. If you're watching from home, you have the choice to just watch something else (like the Melee losers stream that eventually went up) or do something else. The sky is not falling for Melee, but it could be for Smash 4 if people keep attacking it.

PM somewhat different.

 

[MeteorD]

There is not liking a game and acting like an *** because you don't like a game. Image going to CEO or EVO next year and having everyone yell "STREET FIGHTER" and "WHENS MARVEL." They don't do that even though Melee delays games at those tournaments. What do you think those people feel like when they have to sit through something entirely different, twice (CEO had Project M and Melee). Melee delayed the entire tournament and I know this wasn't the only time. See, that's the issue. When it happens to other games, no one says anything. Yeah, they may be upset, but they wont ruin the experience for everyone else. When Melee players don't get what they want, they try to ruin the experience for everyone else. They act like little kids and throw a temper tantrum.

If you are so bored by Smash 4, go somewhere else. Don't sit there and act like a spoiled little kid. I heard people were being disrespectful to Zero when he one. I'm not his biggest fan, but you shouldn't try to spit on someone like that. it's disrespectful. The reason we are saying "the true colors of Melee players" is because Melee players are acting like little kids. If you don't have something nice to say, keep it too yourself. The Melee community's actions were unjustifiable, plain and simple.

That's a straight-up lie though. Last year at EVO, the delays caused by Melee caused a very similar backlash to the one Sm4sh caused at Apex, stop pretending this is something that happened because people hate Sm4sh. This is something absolutely any community would've done if their game got delayed by something which plays heavily different from their own. Going up and insulting Zero is flat-out unacceptable, that much I can agree with since the guy just won a tournament. However the crowd and the Twitch chat being relieved it was finally over is still something I considere entirely justified. Keeping a good seat live is pretty hard, and sitting through something you don't enjoy when it's being played incredibly stale even by Sm4sh players standards is nothing short of ridiculous.

Throwing around accusations like being "spoiled" won't help your cause, since this is how any regular human would've acted. Nobody is blaming Sm4sh players for this, the people who are are plainly put wrong. The top 8 played the game to win, thus used playstyles that were required to win, regardless if boring or not. That doesn't change the fact that it was a very poor spectators sport, very few people can it on that ground. Call it a temper tantrum if you want but that doesn't change the plain fact that people were forced to stay up for very long, especially european players, to watch a top 8 even alot of Sm4sh players can't defend as "entertaining".

Stop trying to take the moral high-ground and guilt-trip players for doing something completely natural. If you want to say that it was insulting to the Sm4sh community then fine, believe that. If the Melee top 8 had been played before the Sm4sh top 8 and been equally as boring somehow, you can bet your goddamn as that Sm4sh players would've been ******** about a 10+ year old game delaying their finals. But of course you won't accept something like that because you consider behaviour like this to be something personal rather than natural.

 

[Dragoomba]

Let's set something straight.

Melee top 16
9 unique chars
12 of 16 players uses either Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik
6 of those uses Fox. then 4 Marths and 3 Shieks
only 4 players do not use the top characters (Puff, Yoshi, Pika, Ice Climbers)

Sm4sh top 16
17 unique chars
4 of 16 used diddy, 3 of 16 used Shiek

Let's set something straight.

9 characters =/= 2 characters

 

[revengeska]

That's a straight-up lie though. Last year at EVO, the delays caused by Melee caused a very similar backlash to the one Sm4sh caused at Apex, stop pretending this is something that happened because people hate Sm4sh. This is something absolutely any community would've done if their game got delayed by something which plays heavily different from their own. Going up and insulting Zero is flat-out unacceptable, that much I can agree with since the guy just won a tournament. However the crowd and the Twitch chat being relieved it was finally over is still something I considere entirely justified. Keeping a good seat live is pretty hard, and sitting through something you don't enjoy when it's being played incredibly stale even by Sm4sh players standards is nothing short of ridiculous.

Throwing around accusations like being "spoiled" won't help your cause, since this is how any regular human would've acted. Nobody is blaming Sm4sh players for this, the people who are are plainly put wrong. The top 8 played the game to win, thus used playstyles that were required to win, regardless if boring or not. That doesn't change the fact that it was a very poor spectators sport, very few people can it on that ground. Call it a temper tantrum if you want but that doesn't change the plain fact that people were forced to stay up for very long, especially european players, to watch a top 8 even alot of Sm4sh players can't defend as "entertaining".

Stop trying to take the moral high-ground and guilt-trip players for doing something completely natural. If you want to say that it was insulting to the Sm4sh community then fine, believe that. If the Melee top 8 had been played before the Sm4sh top 8 and been equally as boring somehow, you can bet your goddamn as that Sm4sh players would've been *****ing about a 10+ year old game delaying their finals. But of course you won't accept something like that because you consider behaviour like this to be something personal rather than natural.

This post is a perfect example of #ButItsNotMelee. Spouting nonsense about Smash 4 being boring and pretending that this is the consensus for "any regular human", when reality is there were many thousands watching Smash 4 before it switched streams.

Yet a new player hears this and never gives Smash 4 a chance, but instead parrots this rhetoric. Melee elitists did this with Brawl and are now trying to do this with Smash 4. I don't see people stopping themselves from doing this so the the only recourse may be for Smash 4 TOs to drop Melee from their events.