Event - Apex 2015 Smash Bros. for Wii U & Melee (Disrespect)

[anikom15]

Okay, so you're a heckler. I'm legitimately curious. Why does Smash 4 need heckling?

Because I was super tired ... and I was on the west coast.

See Matieo's post, but my solution is to just separate the games entirely. If Smash 4 is a good fighting game, it can attract players on its own.

 

[Zork]

I can't think of any competitive fighter that made more drastic changes in the series over the years than Smash. And yes that includes Street Fighter which isn't nearly the same thing.

Once again I cannot stress this enough. At the biggest Smash 4 event by far the crowd:

1. Was literally booing players during the more campy matches.
2. Was constantly asking for Melee (you heard chants like 'next game' and 'Melee).
3. Was cheering for whatever player would end the set sooner. This was especially prominent in Grand Finals when the crowd cheered for Zero to end it quickly despite all the hate Diddy normally gets.
4. Was silent at any other time (except for when they were HOO HAHing).

And this is going to continue to happen if you have Melee and Smash 4 at the same Smash event and Smash 4 is taking up Melee time.

 

[Pwii]

Smash 4 shoved the more popular smash to the side for the sake of "one unit." Why is anyone surprised the majority of fans didnt like that? It didnt have to be one or the other. Just do smash 4on a different stream or stream the top 8 people actually wanted to see.

 

[MegaSilver]

So we should have separate events for Smash 4, (with 64, and Brawl on the side), and a separate event for Melee?

Why can't people just, you know, respect that different people have different tastes?

 

[anikom15]

So we should have separate events for Smash 4, (with 64, and Brawl on the side), and a separate event for Melee?

Why can't people just, you know, respect that different people have different tastes?

Yeah, esp. when it's getting late.

 

[Arcsine]

Each event should in the future have it's own day as there are few players that play both and would no doubt like the opportunity to make coin off of both events.

Over all I'm pretty concerned being someone who is just revisiting these boards for the first time in 10 years. Is this what the community is all about now?

 

[Kuraudo]

Each event should in the future have it's own day as there are few players that play both and would no doubt like the opportunity to make coin off of both events.

Over all I'm pretty concerned being someone who is just revisiting these boards for the first time in 10 years. Is this what the community is all about now?

Oh boy have you missed a lot over 10 years.

 

[MegaSilver]

Each event should in the future have it's own day as there are few players that play both and would no doubt like the opportunity to make coin off of both events.

I still don't know why we have to keep them apart like they're rival gangs, but I don't think this is a bad idea either. There were a few times, especially with m2k I think where they were like "We gotta wait on the next round because this guy has to finish up a Melee match quick before getting on with Smash 4."

I just hate the idea that we have to have people who hate each other within the same fandom when this is all supposed to be fun.

 

[anikom15]

I still don't know why we have to keep them apart like they're rival gangs, but I don't think this is a bad idea either. There were a few times, especially with m2k I think where they were like "We gotta wait on the next round because this guy has to finish up a Melee match quick before getting on with Smash 4."

I just hate the idea that we have to have people who hate each other within the same fandom when this is all supposed to be fun.

Who's saying we have to hate people?

 

[Nintenpro]

Just put Smash4 before Melee in the stream/main stage, it will not solve the real problem but at least meleefags shouldn't be so toxic.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I can't think of any competitive fighter that made more drastic changes in the series over the years than Smash. And yes that includes Street Fighter which isn't nearly the same thing.

Once again I cannot stress this enough. At the biggest Smash 4 event by far the crowd:

1. Was literally booing players during the more campy matches.
2. Was constantly asking for Melee (you heard chants like 'next game' and 'Melee).
3. Was cheering for whatever player would end the set sooner. This was especially prominent in Grand Finals when the crowd cheered for Zero to end it quickly despite all the hate Diddy normally gets.
4. Was silent at any other time (except for when they were HOO HAHing).

And this is going to continue to happen if you have Melee and Smash 4 at the same Smash event and Smash 4 is taking up Melee time.

After Melee made them wait longer to stream other stuff like top 48. After the tournament lost a day, after the coaching that needed to stop. They should have had two streams.

But it was what it was.

 

[revengeska]

See, even in this thread we're seeing #ButItsNotMelee type contempt towards Smash 4. I found it exciting to watch and didn't think it was too slow at all. Judging by the 15k-20k viewers watching it on TeamSp00ky's stream, I wasn't alone. Trying to pass off the opposite as consensus is exactly what the Melee community does, and that's why we have this problem. It's pretty easy to pick out the individuals in this thread that are doing this.

 

[infomon]

I don't have the thread link right now, but someone has been collecting data on the length of time that matches take in 2-stock vs. 3-stock, and the data shows that actually 3-stock Smash4 goes faster than 2-stock. I think the main reason is that it gives more of an advantage to aggressive gameplay; with 2-stocks players are more likely to play defensive (because the penalty of getting hit is higher) and more matches get close to time which results in time-out strategies.

 

[anikom15]

Coaching didn't help the situation.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Actually, Zork. Many of the top Melee players have been rather respectful to Smash 4. PPMD only spoke of his dislike of Smash 4 when he was asked about it, and you don't see him causing a ruckus.

It's absolutely legit to not like smash 4 [I'm not particularly impressed by it either] and to make that opinion known, especially when specifically asked. There's no problem if somebody points out what s/he perceives as the game's flaws and why it can be seen as a turn-off. You specifically mention PP here and from my what I've seen and heard of him he's a very respectful person. He's not one of those people that make the melee community so cancerous.

I'm talking about people that I have encountered on the boards, on social media and in real life - people that have spent 6 years doing their hardest to sabotage any potential success Brawl could have had and ultimately succeeded. They've ruined Brawl and they will not hesitate to do the same with Smash 4 unless something is done about them.

 

[MegaSilver]

It's absolutely legit to not like smash 4 [I'm not particularly impressed by it either] and to make that opinion known, especially when specifically asked. There's no problem if somebody points out what s/he perceives as the game's flaws and why it can be seen as a turn-off. You specifically mention PP here and from my what I've seen and heard of him he's a very respectful person. He's not one of those people that make the melee community so cancerous.

I'm talking about people that I have encountered on the boards, on social media and in real life - people that have spent 6 years doing their hardest to sabotage any potential success Brawl could have had and ultimately succeeded. They've ruined Brawl and they will not hesitate to do the same with Smash 4 unless something is done about them.

Basically this. It's one thing to not like an entry or two of a series, but to try to destroy it is just...childish. It's unbecoming of Nintendo fans, who are usually the nicest and most respectful people in gaming.

Saying "I don't like Smash 4" isn't what this is even about. There are a lot of things I don't like in Smash 4, but I wasn't doing everything in my power to try to sabotage the Smash 4 tournament over the weekend or going all over social media trashing the existence of the game.

 

[Darklink401]

Blame the Apex plague.

No but seriously, Melee fans need to chill.

 

[TreK]

I don't even play Smash Wii U and it pisses me off greatly.

Srsly the Melee community needs to be put back in its place sometimes.

 

[MegaSilver]

Blame the Apex plague.

No but seriously, Melee fans need to chill.

See, but even just labeling it broadly as "Melee fans" isn't helping, you know? It'll just rile up not-rude Melee fans.

 

[TreK]

See, but even just labeling it broadly as "Melee fans" isn't helping, you know? It'll just rile up not-rude Melee fans.

If the not-rude Melee fans want us to take them seriously, they have to be louder than the rude ones.
Lead by example.

 

[MegaSilver]

If the not-rude Melee fans want us to take them seriously, they have to be louder than the rude ones.
Lead by example.

Haha I suddenly feel like we're talking about radical Islam.

Look, I just think in something like gaming, and especially Smash which is supposed to be about fun and competition, the less civil war the better. If it's Smash versus other franchises at EVO or something, have at it. We Smashers need to get together. That includes snobby Melee fans and Smash 4 fans who counter attack trying to defend Smash 4. APEX this year was a ton of fun, there are things in the community that need to be addressed, sure, but this all out war stuff is unnecessary and needs to be dropped. Easier said than done, I know.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well this is classy.

 

[Darklink401]

See, but even just labeling it broadly as "Melee fans" isn't helping, you know? It'll just rile up not-rude Melee fans.

I broadly lably because we as a community need to fix this.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Well this is classy.

jesus christ, talk about haters galor. i know not everyone likes sm4sh, but come on, grow up haters. if they hate the game so much, why did they even bother watching the stream to begin...oh wait, we all know why...same thing happened to brawl >.>

uuggghhh...i guess some of the community hasn't grown up after all.

 

[Kuraudo]

Twitch is on the same level as 4Chan as far as scum goes. I wouldn't give too much attention to twitch chat. It kills brain cells because nobody in that chat has any left.

 

[Dragoomba]

I don't remember the Brawl community spreading anti-melee propaganda on youtube disguised as a "smash documentary".

Holy **** I'm dying. Next thing you know you'll tell me Melee players did 9/11.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Twitch is on the same level as 4Chan as far as scum goes. I wouldn't give too much attention to twitch chat. It kills brain cells because nobody in that chat has any left.

that's exactly how i felt when i read that post of twitch comments. i have no problem if people don't like the game, but some of them are obviously being haters and trolls. it pisses me off and kills my brain cells.

 

[KiD Clutch]

Why do people cry about diddy but in melee all you see is fox or falco?
Armada droped peach beacause fox is the best character in the game.

 

[TreK]

Look, I just think in something like gaming, and especially Smash which is supposed to be about fun and competition, the less civil war the better. If it's Smash versus other franchises at EVO or something, have at it. We Smashers need to get together. That includes snobby Melee fans and Smash 4 fans who counter attack trying to defend Smash 4. APEX this year was a ton of fun, there are things in the community that need to be addressed, sure, but this all out war stuff is unnecessary and needs to be dropped. Easier said than done, I know.

I tried shutting my mouth for 7 years, apparently it didn't work.
Learn from my mistakes bruh.

 

[wannabe33]

1. A game where two thirds of the cast, or arguably every character except one, is unviable is a competitive failure, Smash community is just so used to balance issues that they ignore them completely. Characters make a fighting game for a lot of people.

2. Taking the above point into consideration, while Melee's physics certainly make it more spectator friendly, seeing the same characters over and over may get fairly bland for a lot of people including myself. Maybe Smash 4 will end up this way too, but as of now that's not the case.

3. Smash 4 has been out for 2 months, Melee for 14 years. Besides not everyone is into drama and ego puffing.

4. I agree and most probably do, but I respect him going against the popular opinion and playing to get the win in his own way. Not many have the balls to not care about appealing to the crowds.

Now can we stop saying things like these and quit judging a new game because a 14 year old game of the same series has had more development? I don't see people around saying that USF4 or LoL is a better competitive game than Melee even though by their scenes and popularity they are. That's because they're different enough that everyone understands they're different games that people play for different reasons. This is something the Melee crowd was unable to do for Brawl and now keeps showing further incapability with Smash 4. Do they feel like something is stepping on Melees toes and they have to defend their game god, now having some sort of justification to disrespect the other one? It's completely thoughtless mob culture and a damn shame.

You missed the purpose of my post entirely.

I'm not trying to start a Melee vs. Smash 4 argument -- I don't really care about your opinion on the matter, to be frank. I'm trying to illustrate the mindset of the APEX audience and what led many of them to applaud sarcastically. How they acted was rude, understandable, and ultimately not a big deal.

People in this thread need to stop being melodramatic.

 

[Kuraudo]

If faces of the community like Prog are addressing it, I think it's fair that we can discuss it too.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

What I hate about this situation is that it's the typical group vs group, which means there are perfectly good people on both sides.Sadly it's easy to judge a side based only on those who do the bad things and not the good things.There are people on the Smash 4 side who want to see Melee dead.Let's not forget that.

The problem with trying to stop the Melee people attempting to destroy Smash 4 by cutting Melee from events is unfair to the good people on the Melee side, just as hating on Smash 4 is unfair to the good people on the Smash 4 side.

I guess what I want to say is, don't judge a person on the group their from, and don't forget your side isn't perfect either.


Honestly I don't think anyone can stop the haters. People are going to act terrible no matter what.

Streaming both Smash 4 and Melee at once would stop *some* of the problems.

 

[Trifroze]

Loud minority of anything-but-melee haters isn't to blame for killing off Brawl and won't be to blame if Smash 4 dies. Don't get me wrong, they're making it a ****ton harder for new Smash games to attract new players, but in the end they're all weak individuals typing behind a keyboard because other weak individuals are doing the same, and will be shut up if we, the Smash 4 community, give the game an equal or greater amount of good reputation and exposure. In the end it's all on us.

If reason doesn't reach them then all we can do is overpower their voices, now whether this will happen or not depends on whether the community has enough motivation for it and whether the higher-ups take this seriously or not. I can only speak for my own scene; Finland holds combined Smash 4/Brawl/Melee monthlies of 40-50 people organized by @Draver where stuff like this doesn't happen. Not everyone is interested in every game, but most participate in at least 2 in some way just to try them out, and most importantly there's no booing or chanting or passive aggressive comments. There is a Melee elitist community elsewhere in Finland too though.

The point is, if you want Smash 4 to not corrode from the inside, accept the fact that there will always be dickheads who cannot be reasoned with. After accepting this, organize things in a way that the whining of the aforementioned dickheads is minimized, and show the game enough love that even the whines they let out get stemmed away.

 

[SmashChu]

I think Melee fans have shown their true colors. They aren't fans of Smash but fans of Melee. They don't care about Smash, just Melee. Many of the responses in this thread show just that. "Oh, they were just saying that because Smash 4 took so long." Smash 4 took the same about of time as Melee. You also got to love the double standard. Melee fans think it's OK to go into the Smash 4 stream and bash it, but are quick to complain and ***** when you do the same to Melee.

The idea behind #oneunit was to try and make the community work together which is a unique problem to Smash. In every other community, the players are all willing to support a new game even if it is not their favorite. Fans of SF2 and SF3 wont complain much when SF4 gets the spotlight and the same will happen when SF5 releases. In Smash, Melee must ALWAYS be in the spotlight and it's a big ****ing deal when it's not. Melee fans will try to claim it's because the games are so different, yet they somehow don't realize that every sequel is different. Street Fighter fans have not been playing updated versions of 2 for the last 15 to 20 years. Heck, Marvel vs Capcom 3 uses an entirely new buttons. So Melee being different is only an issue to them. Overall, they are reluctant to try something different and to play something new. Let's be honest, the Melee metagame is stagnant. You see the same players and characters in top 8. Apex was no different. There is no new blood or new characters (except for that one guy who does Yoshi). It will likely get worse as Armada is planning on dropping Peach. I see nothing wrong with sharing (not even giving, sharing), the spotlight with another game.

It seems like most tournaments are willing to run both Melee and Smash 4 so there really isn't an issue with not getting to play or watch the game. The issue is thinking it's OK to act like a 12 year old and try to bash another game because it's not your game. You all don't watch Melee streams and have other games come in and give you **** so why do it to everyone else. When Melee was slowing down CEO, did Street Fighter and Marvel fans yell and scream to stop Melee? Or bash your game in the stream? I was in the audience for CEO and I can say the only thing they did was put a timer up because the coaching was getting WAY out of hand. But no one was bashing Melee. But for some reason, Melee fans think it's OK to do that to Smash 4, to their own community. I'm sorry, that's not acceptable behavior.

It really comes down to the fact that the Melee community is toxic and no one will really call them out on it. Everyone circles the wagon because the assumption is always "Melee is the best game ever made." (I'm not kidding, there were people saying this back in 2004). I always said the problem with Brawl was the Melee community, not Brawl itself. Smash 4 tries to correct Brawl's problems but for some reason it is still bad. I think because of this the Melee fans are showing their true colors. All this does is makes the community look like little children to Nintendo and others. The hastag oneunit should be replaced with #Can_you_Melee_fans_chill_out_for_one_minute_and_let_us_play_our_goddamn_game

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Hard to compromise on that given the legal issues with supporting that.

Yeah but you didn't see many showing any sympathy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah but you didn't see many showing any sympathy.

I was even if I don't like PM all that much.

The issue is people don't get that the true hurdle for PM is getting around that, which is pretty much impossible.

 

[MegaSilver]

I tried shutting my mouth for 7 years, apparently it didn't work.
Learn from my mistakes bruh.

Hey, I'm speaking my mind here, I'm not shutting up. I just think you have to go after obnoxious people in general.

 

[Zork]

Basically this. It's one thing to not like an entry or two of a series, but to try to destroy it is just...childish. It's unbecoming of Nintendo fans, who are usually the nicest and most respectful people in gaming.

Saying "I don't like Smash 4" isn't what this is even about. There are a lot of things I don't like in Smash 4, but I wasn't doing everything in my power to try to sabotage the Smash 4 tournament over the weekend or going all over social media trashing the existence of the game.

I'm in the same boat as both of you. There are plenty of things I don't like about Smash 4 as you can tell from my other topic. But at the same time, I do believe the Melee community just gives Smash a bad name in general and literally booing players and screaming for Melee while finals were going on was completely uncalled for.

The worst part is this kind of behavior is not going to stop because it's deemed as 100% acceptable. And it's going to remain that way until prominent members of the Melee community publicly and in person condemn this sort of conduct.

Either that or someone makes a Brawl/Smash 4 "Smash documentary" and says it speaks for all of Smash like the Melee community did Kappa

Edit:

With that said the Smash 4 community isn't exactly innocent either. They've bashed Brawl and Project M plenty of times for extremely ironic reasons. But the Melee community is definitely the worst.

Edit:

Some people are saying the hate was justified because they had to wait for Melee top 8 to start. You guys do realize Smash 4 viewers had to wait even longer for THEIR top 8 to start after all the winners Melee matches being streamed right?

 

[Squii The Fish]

I am gonna go out on a limb here.

I enjoy smash 4 as a game, and i enjoy watching matches they CAN be very entertaining.

But as viewer I feel melee just is more entertaining to watch. i think its more important for the smash 4 community to persevere and prove itself by having players develop there game and start finding strats to deal with HOO HAH then it is to worry about what melee fans think. if you are asking for respect and things like that i am not sure what to tell you.

Melee is like basketball, smash 4 is like hockey. When they are sharing the same stage some people are going to get irritated that there game isn't up. smash 4 has the skills to make it on its own and is a cool game. It's the communities job to put THAT out first and foremost. Just play the game. if people don't come around then thats just life. Every community has disrespectful fans woop de doo.

 

[Zork]

I am gonna go out on a limb here.

I enjoy smash 4 as a game, and i enjoy watching matches they CAN be very entertaining.

But as viewer I feel melee just is more entertaining to watch. i think its more important for the smash 4 community to persevere and prove itself by having players develop there game and start finding strats to deal with HOO HAH then it is to worry about what melee fans think. if you are asking for respect and things like that i am not sure what to tell you.

Melee is like basketball, smash 4 is like hockey. When they are sharing the same stage some people are going to get irritated that there game isn't up. smash 4 has the skills to make it on its own and is a cool game. It's the communities job to put THAT out first and foremost. Just play the game. if people don't come around then thats just life. Every community has disrespectful fans woop de doo.

But that's just it. Smash 4 viewers had to wait for their top 8 for even longer as all the Melee winners bracket matches were being streamed.

They actually finished up to top 8 in the afternoon and it was like 7PM when top 8 finally started on the mainstage.

Now were any of these viewers heckling Melee players that were on stream in the meantime?