Event - Apex 2015 Smash Bros. for Wii U & Melee (Disrespect)

[HeroMystic]

There is so much misinformation about Brawl and Smash 4 that it makes my head hurt.

If you don't know about the game, then stop talking as if you do.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think this topic was created to compare smash4 and melee. Especially when you can't accept that people can prefer brawl/smash4 physics. Why do you always want to prove that your game is better ? Just play the game(s) you like.


No you're clearly not the only one. There a lot of people who enjoyed the Smash 4 tournament, people who disliked it are just the most vocal.

I'm not trying to argue one is better.

I'm arguing against the concept of "objectively better" and show there is a valid reason to prefer Smash 4 over Melee but also acknowledge not everything will be for objective reasoning.

 

[revengeska]

First of all the initial assumption of your post is that Sm4sh is in the same shoes as Brawl, which might be considered believable until you realize the fact that literally every Melee player had a good reason to be pissed off at Brawl, and any attempt for it to buy its way into the competitive scene. Brawl was literally made to be anti-competitive, that part is not even up for debate with how many forced RNG additions, and Sakurai's own statements about thinking Melee as having too much of a skill ceiling.

When Zero won, people weren't cheering against him, they were cheering for him managing to win the set fast when the overall tournament had dragged on, and then afterwards finally cheered for Melee finally being able to start. Apparently this is considered wrong. You say that there is no "objective" fun but watching the top 8 of the Sm4sh 8 tournament was a ****ing pain for everyone involved since the vast majority wanted it to end. Claiming that some people might've enjoyed it doesn't even cut it, the fact of the matter is that there was virtually no hype that wasn't artificial. Pools had hyped up matches, top 8 did not. If Sm4sh had been exciting then the so-called backlash would've been far milder, if not non-existant. I highly doubt someone would be screaming cheers of joy if the top 8 had been like the BB finals or some ****. It's frankly annoying as **** to see people pretend like it was, it's like they're in denial or something and keep making up excuses while actively saying it was enjoyable to watch.

Metaphores are generally pretty stupid, there was not even a need for that. Don't bring up #oneunit anymore, it's dead anyway to the point where I can't consider it anything other than a joke. However I will give you credit on properly explaining one thing; Sm4sh didn't have to work to get where it is today. In fact, you can't even call Melee being "jealous" of the free ride, just annoyed that it delayed incredibly hyped up matches that were going to appear in the top 8 of Melee. Right now Melee and Sm4sh are only similar by name, with some of the players overlapping, however that doesn't create some obligation for them to be more than indifferent to it. When Sm4sh is placed right before the hype top 8 rather than after while simultaneously proving itself to be ridiculously boring; expecting anything other than negative feedback would be weird as ****, and players who are indifferent to it would still be indifferent to it's existant. Only difference is that in that particular situation, they have the right to have a negative reaction to it.

Basically what you're trying to say is that you "sympathize" with their negative reactions but don't consider it justified, which makes me confused over what you can even consider enough of a reason for it, considering it was dreadful this time. When something stupid as **** happens then they have a right to be mad at it, you can't pretend that the behavior that arose from this can be considered pure hate. That's simply interpreting the situation as according to a massive victim problem. I get that Sm4sh is new to the scene, but by the looks of it there's very little **** that's willing to take. Taking responsibility for being incredibly unhype, and the Nintendo sponsorship causing it to jump over to the VGBC stream. This entire thread has basically been telling Melee players to deal with it and not react at all or otherwise they'll point them out as a hate group, which is ****ing unreasonable to say the least.

Don't bring PM into this, Sm4sh is indirectly responsible for the rejection of PM due to it not being exciting enough at the moment to support itself at tournaments and requires Nintendo's backing to do it. Trying to sneak in a "quiet farewell" about it is just disgusting. The only respect at the moment that should be given between the two games at the moment is indifference, the same indifference they would give any other game that's in the schedule of the same tournament as it. Making it out to be anything more just forces on more duties on the Melee community since they're the ones that don't benefit from some sort of high regard towards eachother, because it already stands on it's own 2 legs and isn't prone to dying anytime soon.

Don't know why I'm bothering with all of this but the fact that the Sm4sh community is trying to paint Melee as hateful group for justifiable reactions for a situation that Sm4sh involvement was a major part of is incredibly idiotic, and I don't see how I'm supposed to respect that behavior at all.

Blah blah blah #ButItsNotMelee. Clearly this Melee elitist group IS a hateful group and you're proving it by continuing to talk trash about how "bad" Smash 4 is. Why do you continue to bother posting when all you're doing is saying the same thing over and over again and are clearly unwilling to listen to anything that anyone is trying to tell you?

 

[Pwii]

So you're saying that the 0-death combo being anti-competitive argument is garbage, yet you freely ADMIT that it's in the game and your only argument that it's not anti-competitive is that it doesn't happen every time? Also, your preference of movement or physics is irrelevant to whether something is anti-competitive or not.

Why waste everyone's time making yourself look like a complete moron?

Interesting that you keep coming back to Chess as a comparison, because I actually DO play Chess at a national level, most recently at the 2014 US Open.

I look at Melee, and I see L-canceling, Wave-dashing, inescapable combos, etc, and it reminds me of chess opening theory. In high level tournament play, you need to memorize specific move orders of a number of different openings because you can expect your opponent has done the same and if you don't do it you are bound to go wrong and end up worse or even crushed right out of the gate. I see having to practice a lot of muscle memory and memorizing lots of different things in order to play Melee at any sort of competitive level. I dislike studying opening theory because it's boring, and I have no inclination to practice L-canceling timing or what combos will achieve what knockback against what characters to ensure death, either.

I look at Smash 4, and I see a wide variety of characters with unique strengths and movesets. There isn't a lot of tech to practice, it's all about strategy and mind games and outwitting your opponent. And you have to do this on a consistent basis. There are no inescapable combos to die from on one mistake, so it allows the better player with the superior strategy to consistently outplay the opponent and win the game. I don't care that characters didn't always bounce up and down real fast or that a character wasn't getting hit 6 times in the course of a blink, I highly enjoyed the Smash 4 stream because I saw an incredible depth to the gameplay and the speed had no bearing on that. This to me is comparable to the middle game in Chess, where you rely on your skills to outplay your opponent in a position neither of you have ever seen before. It's not always an exciting, action packed game, but if you understand what's going on it can be very interesting nonetheless.

I'm okay with you preferring Melee over Smash 4 or every other game in existence that doesn't model itself after Melee. Really, I am. But I do take offense to the #ButItsNotMelee attitude of pretending that anything that's not Melee and anyone who prefers other games are inferior and should be looked down upon. I would rather the communities split and host their own tournaments than be in a community with people with that attitude. I want no part of it.

You know nothing about combos in Melee. Most if not all can be escaped with proper predictive DI/SDI. Touch of death requires you to properly condition/predict your opponent as well as react to the combo as it progresses. It also places risk on the person executing the combo. You still don't seem to get it, so let me break it down for you:

When you get hit/grabbed in Melee, you are placed in a disadvantageous situation. Your opponent now has momentum, and can choose how to follow the hit up. You need to react to, or predict what the follow up will be. Depending on the situation, you can DI properly to avoid any follow up, or minimize the follow ups. You can also use SDI to escape even further. Now, if your opponent is better than you, they might react to/predict your defense and choose a follow up that properly counters it. Then you are again, in the same disadvantageous position. Not to mention if your opponent misreads your defense, depending on their level of commitment and risk to their offensive choice, you can turn the tables on them (see: fox dittos). You don't seem to like the idea that you cannot escape a bad situation for free, and that's stupid. If you mess up, you should get punished. The combo philosophy from Melee is more dynamic, requires and allows for more creativity, and requires enormous amounts of skill. It allows for interesting matchups where one character can lose the neutral game in general, but make up for it with a superior punish game, instead of overcentralizing the game on the neutral (see: Falon vs Marth as opposed to Brawl MK vs anyone.)

The problems with an objective concept is that is offers what a main goal of something is and what it tries to appeal to.

The issue is you say everything is done better but is it? Is falling faster better for a competitive game? It's not objectively better.

Game design is not that cut and clear outside of obvious bad ideas like tripping or L-Cancelling. Or good innovative ideas like custom movesets, amazing idea actually.

Gaming no matter how you cut it is a subjective medium in this way. The audience and players will decide it's fate. And so far Smash 4 is looking strong on both a competitive and casual level.

Smash 4 isn't at all outclassed by Melee and Melee is not without it's flaws that Smash 4 fixes.

The issue is the elitism and people really having a "this or go home" mentality. It's really why I'm not a big fan of PM in the first place.

Your logic can be used to say that Yahtzee is as competitive as Boxing. Do you really believe that? Do you really believe in total subjectivity when it comes to what's good competitive design and what isn't? Because if you can tell me that, I don't think I can convince you.

 

[revengeska]

You know nothing about combos in Melee. Most if not all can be escaped with proper predictive DI/SDI. Touch of death requires you to properly condition/predict your opponent as well as react to the combo as it progresses. It also places risk on the person executing the combo. You still don't seem to get it, so let me break it down for you:

When you get hit/grabbed in Melee, you are placed in a disadvantageous situation. Your opponent now has momentum, and can choose how to follow the hit up. You need to react to, or predict what the follow up will be. Depending on the situation, you can DI properly to avoid any follow up, or minimize the follow ups. You can also use SDI to escape even further. Now, if your opponent is better than you, they might react to/predict your defense and choose a follow up that properly counters it. Then you are again, in the same disadvantageous position. Not to mention if your opponent misreads your defense, depending on their level of commitment and risk to their offensive choice, you can turn the tables on them (see: fox dittos). You don't seem to like the idea that you cannot escape a bad situation for free, and that's stupid. If you mess up, you should get punished. The combo philosophy from Melee is more dynamic, requires and allows for more creativity, and requires enormous amounts of skill. It allows for interesting matchups where one character can lose the neutral game in general, but make up for it with a superior punish game, instead of overcentralizing the game on the neutral (see: Falon vs Marth as opposed to Brawl MK vs anyone.)


Your logic can be used to say that Yahtzee is as competitive as Boxing. Do you really believe that? Do you really believe in total subjectivity when it comes to what's good competitive design and what isn't? Because if you can tell me that, I don't think I can convince you.

Funny, because I hear lots of #ButItsNotMelee talk about the lack of inescapable combos in Smash 4 and Brawl, and yet you're telling me that you can minimize or avoid followups with DI in Melee. If that's true, it sounds a lot like Smash 4 to me. Being hit in the air and being below an opponent, or being hit off stage where you're being edgeguarded put you at a disadvantage too. This isn't escaping a bad situation for free. How is this different.

The hallmark of a competitive game is one where the best players will consistently win. We see this in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. We(mostly) all agree that ZeRo won because he was the best player at Apex. This shouldn't even be an argument because it's ridiculous.

 

[jsmoe]

You know nothing about combos in Melee. Most if not all can be escaped with proper predictive DI/SDI. Touch of death requires you to properly condition/predict your opponent as well as react to the combo as it progresses. It also places risk on the person executing the combo. You still don't seem to get it, so let me break it down for you:

When you get hit/grabbed in Melee, you are placed in a disadvantageous situation. Your opponent now has momentum, and can choose how to follow the hit up. You need to react to, or predict what the follow up will be. Depending on the situation, you can DI properly to avoid any follow up, or minimize the follow ups. You can also use SDI to escape even further. Now, if your opponent is better than you, they might react to/predict your defense and choose a follow up that properly counters it. Then you are again, in the same disadvantageous position. Not to mention if your opponent misreads your defense, depending on their level of commitment and risk to their offensive choice, you can turn the tables on them (see: fox dittos). You don't seem to like the idea that you cannot escape a bad situation for free, and that's stupid. If you mess up, you should get punished. The combo philosophy from Melee is more dynamic, requires and allows for more creativity, and requires enormous amounts of skill. It allows for interesting matchups where one character can lose the neutral game in general, but make up for it with a superior punish game, instead of overcentralizing the game on the neutral (see: Falon vs Marth as opposed to Brawl MK vs anyone.)


Your logic can be used to say that Yahtzee is as competitive as Boxing. Do you really believe that? Do you really believe in total subjectivity when it comes to what's good competitive design and what isn't? Because if you can tell me that, I don't think I can convince you.

You see this is where i disagree with you, melee is competitive yes, but calling a game like sm4sh not competitive because it dosen't have an offense-centric style is like saying that USF4 is not competitive because UMVC has more offensive combos

as far as lack of creativity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMuYDCiXEb0
i'd say that people can still be pretty creative

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Your logic can be used to say that Yahtzee is as competitive as Boxing. Do you really believe that? Do you really believe in total subjectivity when it comes to what's good competitive design and what isn't? Because if you can tell me that, I don't think I can convince you.

Of course not, but I wouldn't compare two fighters right here that have a lot of differences but at the same time offer something the other cannot that adds a lot to it's community.

I don't believe in complete subjectivity, but saying fast falling is "better competitive design" is not something I would support as being objective at all.

 

[jmanup85]

I don't see how someone can say that literally everyone from Melee had a reason to be pissed at Brawl when obviously that wasn't the case. Stop using that word haphazardly because it just makes you an open target for a rebuttal very easily. Were people upset about it? Yes. Was everyone pissed at the game? No. They adapted and moved on to play it or not play it. And now it isn't that they were cheering sarcastically or anything, it's because he finished a set fast? I didn't know we have a person who could see into each and every person's mind and heart and know what they are thinking here. As far as I know a game didn't make the staff of Apex stream the game first through mind control. But please continue blaming it for everything under the sun. Since obviously it stole your first newborn. Basically, blame the APEX staff for the mismanagement of time, not the damned game. Unless that's too hard for some people (and honestly going by the responses in this thread, it isn't too surprising that it could very well be)

 

[Pwii]

Funny, because I hear lots of #ButItsNotMelee talk about the lack of inescapable combos in Smash 4 and Brawl, and yet you're telling me that you can minimize or avoid followups with DI in Melee. If that's true, it sounds a lot like Smash 4 to me. Being hit in the air and being below an opponent, or being hit off stage where you're being edgeguarded put you at a disadvantage too. This isn't escaping a bad situation for free. How is this different.

The hallmark of a competitive game is one where the best players will consistently win. We see this in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. We(mostly) all agree that ZeRo won because he was the best player at Apex. This shouldn't even be an argument because it's ridiculous.

I'm not saying you can escape all bad situations in Sm4sh; it is similar to Melee after all. I'm just saying in Melee, there is more pressure on the person being combo'd, as they can't just double jump+airdodge out of most combos. In Sm4sh, after the first hit, follow ups are harder than defenses to follow ups, encouraging a one-hit-then-neutral playstyle that made Brawl terrible. Melee's neutral game matters because of the hard punishes you can get off of movement reads in the neutral. Sm4sh's neutral game doesn't matter as much if you lose one encounter because you can just return to neutral for almost free, then try again. Sm4sh makes the neutral simultaneously over-centralizing while at the same time low-stakes.

I might be exaggerating/comparing to Brawl too much, but that paragraph still applies to Sm4sh, even if it applies moreso to Brawl.

You see this is where i disagree with you, melee is competitive yes, but calling a game like sm4sh not competitive because it dosen't have an offense-centric style is like saying that USF4 is not competitive because UMVC has more offensive combos

as far as lack of creativity https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMuYDCiXEb0
i'd say that people can still be pretty creative

1. In Melee, offense and defense were viable styles, with offense being more viable. You can still play puff, or a defensive Sheik. It's somewhat balanced, with more favor towards the more exciting playstyle, making a good defense hard to pull off, so it's still exciting to watch.
2. I'm not putting down Boss, but the only two creative parts of that combo were the late nair-> grab and the swaggin edgeguard. My other point was not that Sm4sh can't be creative, I'm saying that the design doesn't allow for as much creativity as Melee.

I'm actually not trying to say that Sm4sh is a bad game, because it isn't. I'm saying Melee's better.

I don't see how someone can say that literally everyone from Melee had a reason to be pissed at Brawl when obviously that wasn't the case. Stop using that word haphazardly because it just makes you an open target for a rebuttal very easily. Were people upset about it? Yes. Was everyone pissed at the game? No. They adapted and moved on to play it or not play it. And now it isn't that they were cheering sarcastically or anything, it's because he finished a set fast? I didn't know we have a person who could see into each and every person's mind and heart and know what they are thinking here. As far as I know a game didn't make the staff of Apex stream the game first through mind control. But please continue blaming it for everything under the sun. Since obviously it stole your first newborn. Basically, blame the APEX staff for the mismanagement of time, not the damned game. Unless that's too hard for some people (and honestly going by the responses in this thread, it isn't too surprising that it could very well be)

As far as I've seen, most everyone here has been complaining about the Apex management, not the game itself. I know I've gotten sidetracked, but I didn't come in here piping mad at Sm4sh, I came in here angry at the people who pushed Sm4sh onto me when I wanted to see the better, more popular, more exciting top 8 at a decent hour.

Let's assume that Sm4sh vs Melee is just personal opinion, with none of my bias. More people play/watch Melee. This is not my opinion, this is fact. Right now, for the competitive scene, Melee is more popular. Now the majority of people's personal opinions was that they wanted Melee top 8 during the better timeslot. Now this is just preference, as I'm sure the Sm4sh fans wanted the better timeslot too. This is normal. Now, what should Apex have done?

They should have streamed the popular game during primetime. What did they do?

Stream the less popular game during primetime. Why?

Because they wanted to suck Nintendo's sponsor ****. They don't care if esports means frustrating the MAJORITY fanbase, or if it means quietly dropping PM. They'll just tell their commentators to try and make Sm4sh hype, turn on subscriber mode, blame "Le toxic Melee h8rs" and hope nobody will notice.

What will happen if VGBC's sugar daddy tells them to stop streaming Melee? Would they just go to Sm4sh so they can get sponsorship moneys? Because something tells me instead of #OneUnit, those guys should start using the hashtag #OneDollar.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Time management was indeed a large problem with APEX this year.

As for the streams one after another, if they had 3 days instead of 2, I think they could have kept it on time. But as it stands they still wanted to use the main stage to showcase both of them just one was first the the big event of Melee later.

It wasn't so much forcing people to watch it as much as they were trying to showcase the two biggest events that were at APEX.

 

[Pwii]

Time management was indeed a large problem with APEX this year.

As for the streams one after another, if they had 3 days instead of 2, I think they could have kept it on time. But as it stands they still wanted to use the main stage to showcase both of them just one was first the the big event of Melee later.

It wasn't so much forcing people to watch it as much as they were trying to showcase the two biggest events that were at APEX.

Why do you think they streamed Sm4sh at the better time? (the time slot that was originally slotted for Melee)

 

[jsmoe]

Sm4sh was slotted before melee, so when the scheduele was pushed up so was smash and melee. The loss of a day is what killed it.

 

[xaszatm]

I'm not saying you can escape all bad situations in Sm4sh; it is similar to Melee after all. I'm just saying in Melee, there is more pressure on the person being combo'd, as they can't just double jump+airdodge out of most combos. In Sm4sh, after the first hit, follow ups are harder than defenses to follow ups, encouraging a one-hit-then-neutral playstyle that made Brawl terrible. Melee's neutral game matters because of the hard punishes you can get off of movement reads in the neutral. Sm4sh's neutral game doesn't matter as much if you lose one encounter because you can just return to neutral for almost free, then try again. Sm4sh makes the neutral simultaneously over-centralizing while at the same time low-stakes.

I might be exaggerating/comparing to Brawl too much, but that paragraph still applies to Sm4sh, even if it applies moreso to Brawl.


1. In Melee, offense and defense were viable styles, with offense being more viable. You can still play puff, or a defensive Sheik. It's somewhat balanced, with more favor towards the more exciting playstyle, making a good defense hard to pull off, so it's still exciting to watch.
2. I'm not putting down Boss, but the only two creative parts of that combo were the late nair-> grab and the swaggin edgeguard. My other point was not that Sm4sh can't be creative, I'm saying that the design doesn't allow for as much creativity as Melee.

I'm actually not trying to say that Sm4sh is a bad game, because it isn't. I'm saying Melee's better.

As far as I've seen, most everyone here has been complaining about the Apex management, not the game itself. I know I've gotten sidetracked, but I didn't come in here piping mad at Sm4sh, I came in here angry at the people who pushed Sm4sh onto me when I wanted to see the better, more popular, more exciting top 8 at a decent hour.

Let's assume that Sm4sh vs Melee is just personal opinion, with none of my bias. More people play/watch Melee. This is not my opinion, this is fact. Right now, for the competitive scene, Melee is more popular. Now the majority of people's personal opinions was that they wanted Melee top 8 during the better timeslot. Now this is just preference, as I'm sure the Sm4sh fans wanted the better timeslot too. This is normal. Now, what should Apex have done?

They should have streamed the popular game during primetime. What did they do?

Stream the less popular game during primetime. Why?

Because they wanted to suck Nintendo's sponsor ****. They don't care if esports means frustrating the MAJORITY fanbase, or if it means quietly dropping PM. They'll just tell their commentators to try and make Sm4sh hype, turn on subscriber mode, blame "Le toxic Melee h8rs" and hope nobody will notice.

What will happen if VGBC's sugar daddy tells them to stop streaming Melee? Would they just go to Sm4sh so they can get sponsorship moneys? Because something tells me instead of #OneUnit, those guys should start using the hashtag #OneDollar.

No...they streamed Melee last because it was the biggest tournament. You know, like EVERY ORGANIZED TOURNAMENT! Don't pretend that Melee being last was some sort of "sucking up" to Nintendo. You think a tournament that had 800+ contestants didn't deserve its spotlight on the main screen? The tournament only took so long because a day was lost and Melee was taking way too long to finish. Smash 4 was ready on time. People just had to wait until Melee's games were finished. But sure, keep pretending that Smash 4 was a "sucking up" moment.

Besides, I thought that by now you guys would be used to a late Melee. It happened plenty of times before.

 

[jmanup85]

Le sigh, look man I'm not against you being upset about it. It was all a big snowball effect since even Sm4sh top 8 was delayed earlier because of Melee top 48 and that was delayed because of 2v2's from what I remember. I get being upset at that, but I found Sm4sh Finals more entertaining than the Top 8 of Melee with the exception of Leffen v Mango only to see who loses a giant wad of cash. I do not condone the actions of those chants and I don't even sympathize or empathize with them because had that been anyone one of us we'd be pissed. It's just that simple and like I said before, no excuses, no johns, nothing. That's what this thread was originally about, it was just disrespectful and tasteless. All I wanna say is if you believe the top 8 of Melee is better? Some would disagree with that. More popular? Well sure the game is already established and rivalries are established and such. More exciting is also subjective but many will agree with you while some won't. Personally, for Sm4sh to develop further the rules need to be broader because this game has things that need to be evaluated that weren't present in other games of this series. Notably the presence of Miis and Palutena, and obviously custom moves for all characters.

 

[lijero13ss]

Was very disappointed in the Melee community with their embarrassing acts at apex. smh

 

[Yong Dekonk]

The smash community is bigger than the people at apex. I think we all need to accept that melee and smash 4 are different types of games that are good in their own ways. What happened at apex was circumstantial and not personal or hateful. It was a result of tiredness and frustration. Pay no attention to the haters at melee as there are plenty of people who respect and admire Zero for winning.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why do you think they streamed Sm4sh at the better time? (the time slot that was originally slotted for Melee)

The biggest event is always put last.

Also they were behind on time.

 

[TheFlyingCule]

The only thing Apex taught me was that people lack the ability to predict the obvious. What did people expect? To not be up until 3am when a WHOLE ****ING DAY was lost? It was obvious from the beginning that events are gonna be really damn late when a 3 day schedule is shoved into a 2 day timeslot. The fact that they even managed to fit it in by 4am while still running all events including the Salty Suite is almost surprising

Melee finals needed to occur at a respectable hour? Was Sm4sh supposed to wait even longer for their top 8 when they spent the last few hours waiting for Melee top 48 to finish? I guess so, who care about the Sm4sh players, just have them wait more than half a day.

Why couldn't Sm4sh be on another stream? Its not like Smash 64 needs a stream, after all, Brawl didn't get one either, so how about we just throw another Smash game out the door because it's not Melee.

Seriously its like people don't realize losing a day means that you have to make some adjustments, and that usually means using hour available. If you attended Apex and expected it to conclude at a normal time when day 1 is lost, quite frankly, you are an idiot. The only way to do that is actively remove events altogether, screwing over those that actually came to Apex just to compete in said event.

On a side note, yeah i understand people were tired and frustrated, but there will never be an excuse for being immature. If you are an adult, you wouldn't partake in what occurred during Sm4sh finals, nor would you try to justify it.

 

[Mayday]

Stop making this about which game is objectively "better" or which games is more competitive. Both games are good. Both games are competitively viable. It's about the disrespect that was shown during Smash 4 finals and what we can do to improve the situation so nothing of this caliber will happen again

 

[Hegemony]

First of all the initial assumption of your post is that Sm4sh is in the same shoes as Brawl, which might be considered believable until you realize the fact that literally every Melee player had a good reason to be pissed off at Brawl, and any attempt for it to buy its way into the competitive scene. Brawl was literally made to be anti-competitive, that part is not even up for debate with how many forced RNG additions, and Sakurai's own statements about thinking Melee as having too much of a skill ceiling.

So they should take it out on the player? Yeah yeah, you're probably gonna say 'no they're just mad about the game', but they took it out on Nairo by extension and you can't deny that. Take a step back from your Melee goggles for a second and think about what's being said. The deeper issue I'm addressing are about people like you who believe that it's justifiable, that it's alright to be disrespectful, because you know what? They had a 'reason' and that reason is that they were not playing Melee. I am frankly disgusted that you're saying the Melee chants towards Nairo were alright because Brawl (and its players) deserved to be pissed on for not playing the 'real competitive game' and instead playing 'the anti-competitive insult to my Melee'.

You wanna know something? Being respectful isn't hard. Being in control of your personal agenda to celebrate the fact that someone worked really hard to win a national tournament isn't hard. I hate tennis, but I don't go up to tennis players and spit on their achievements. I still wouldn't, even if I was forced to watch tennis so I could watch soccer after.

When Zero won, people weren't cheering against him, they were cheering for him managing to win the set fast when the overall tournament had dragged on, and then afterwards finally cheered for Melee finally being able to start. Apparently this is considered wrong.

Let's flip the situation and say Smash 4 happened after Melee; they're now disgruntled at having had to wait for so long, especially after top 48. If Sm4sh people cheered 'Smash 4! Smash 4!' during PPMD's crowning moment, you'd be alright with that? It's justified? And pretend the situations are the same, because I get this ominous feeling you're going to say that Melee wouldn't have taken as long as Smash 4 or it's so hype and better that no one would do that. Think about it for the sake of argument, please.

Also, cheering for someone for ending a game is not cheering for someone because they won a goddamn national tournament of said game. How do you not understand the disrespect behind this? ZeRo said as much on his post that he felt the difference. Think about this deeply, like with the depth that Melee has competitively, since that's your baseline for depth.

It's frankly annoying as **** to see people pretend like it was, it's like they're in denial or something and keep making up excuses while actively saying it was enjoyable to watch.

Is it really that hard for you to respect that some people enjoyed it? Is it really that difficult? Vast majority =! everyone. Why does that annoy you? Why do you believe they're in denial? No really, what's your reason for even getting this irritated over people's tastes? Do you get mad at your grandmother if she plays solitaire and gets excited over it? There is no objective rule to fun outside of having fun. It's not hard to get.

Only difference is that in that particular situation, they have the right to have a negative reaction to it. Basically what you're trying to say is that you "sympathize" with their negative reactions but don't consider it justified, which makes me confused over what you can even consider enough of a reason for it, considering it was dreadful this time. When something stupid as **** happens then they have a right to be mad at it, you can't pretend that the behavior that arose from this can be considered pure hate. That's simply interpreting the situation as according to a massive victim problem.

Think back to the parent example, because metaphors are there to make ideas more accessible. I can sympathize with people being frustrated. I will not sympathize with people taking out their frustration on others, because you could have expressed that frustration in a respectful way.

This entire thread has basically been telling Melee players to deal with it and not react at all or otherwise they'll point them out as a hate group, which is ****ing unreasonable to say the least.

I don't even know what to say to this. If you are so deeply entrenched in this outlandish idea that everyone and their dog is out to get the Melee community, then nothing I say will deter you. Let me just say this: actions speak louder than words and the actions of select members of the Melee community are what is doing more harm, not what the rest of the people have to say. P.S. you can react and not be a douche about it.

Don't bring PM into this, Sm4sh is indirectly responsible for the rejection of PM due to it not being exciting enough at the moment to support itself at tournaments and requires Nintendo's backing to do it. Trying to sneak in a "quiet farewell" about it is just disgusting.

Dude, I meant Brawl. You know, the game "that literally every Melee player had a good reason to be pissed off at" (MeteorD, last post) and the game that got snuffed out competitively because of numerous factors, one of which being attitudes like yours. And for the love of everything, please don't say it's solely because it's the anti-competitive insult to your Melee. People played Brawl and they dared to play it competitively, so there is more to this than just that.

So far, I don't know about you, but the PM stepchild seems to be alive and kicking. Thanks for assuming otherwise?

 

[revengeska]

I'm not saying you can escape all bad situations in Sm4sh; it is similar to Melee after all. I'm just saying in Melee, there is more pressure on the person being combo'd, as they can't just double jump+airdodge out of most combos. In Sm4sh, after the first hit, follow ups are harder than defenses to follow ups, encouraging a one-hit-then-neutral playstyle that made Brawl terrible. Melee's neutral game matters because of the hard punishes you can get off of movement reads in the neutral. Sm4sh's neutral game doesn't matter as much if you lose one encounter because you can just return to neutral for almost free, then try again. Sm4sh makes the neutral simultaneously over-centralizing while at the same time low-stakes.

I might be exaggerating/comparing to Brawl too much, but that paragraph still applies to Sm4sh, even if it applies moreso to Brawl.


1. In Melee, offense and defense were viable styles, with offense being more viable. You can still play puff, or a defensive Sheik. It's somewhat balanced, with more favor towards the more exciting playstyle, making a good defense hard to pull off, so it's still exciting to watch.
2. I'm not putting down Boss, but the only two creative parts of that combo were the late nair-> grab and the swaggin edgeguard. My other point was not that Sm4sh can't be creative, I'm saying that the design doesn't allow for as much creativity as Melee.

I'm actually not trying to say that Sm4sh is a bad game, because it isn't. I'm saying Melee's better.

As far as I've seen, most everyone here has been complaining about the Apex management, not the game itself. I know I've gotten sidetracked, but I didn't come in here piping mad at Sm4sh, I came in here angry at the people who pushed Sm4sh onto me when I wanted to see the better, more popular, more exciting top 8 at a decent hour.

Let's assume that Sm4sh vs Melee is just personal opinion, with none of my bias. More people play/watch Melee. This is not my opinion, this is fact. Right now, for the competitive scene, Melee is more popular. Now the majority of people's personal opinions was that they wanted Melee top 8 during the better timeslot. Now this is just preference, as I'm sure the Sm4sh fans wanted the better timeslot too. This is normal. Now, what should Apex have done?

They should have streamed the popular game during primetime. What did they do?

Stream the less popular game during primetime. Why?

Because they wanted to suck Nintendo's sponsor ****. They don't care if esports means frustrating the MAJORITY fanbase, or if it means quietly dropping PM. They'll just tell their commentators to try and make Sm4sh hype, turn on subscriber mode, blame "Le toxic Melee h8rs" and hope nobody will notice.

What will happen if VGBC's sugar daddy tells them to stop streaming Melee? Would they just go to Sm4sh so they can get sponsorship moneys? Because something tells me instead of #OneUnit, those guys should start using the hashtag #OneDollar.

We've gotten off track here; I really am fine with you preferring Melee over anything else. I've outlined the reasons why I and many others prefer Smash 4 over Melee, you can accept that or not accept that. All I'm asking for is that we're free to have that preference and not be looked down upon or ridiculed for it.

 

[MellowTV]

****s cray....

 

[JmacAttack]

I would just like to point out that Smash 64 was supposed to go on the main stage too, before Smash 4, but the event was so behind on time that they were the ones who got sent to the secondary stream. They were furious, but Smash64 players are used to getting shafted so much by now that they never raised a stink. That's kind of sad.

So yeah, before anyone repeats the line "just send them to different streams!" or "Melee got shafted because of Smash 4!" don't forget that 64 would've had nothing if Smash 4 was on the secondary stream, and the Smash64 players still sacrificed way more than Melee at Apex, and they took it without so much as a peep.

 

[TheFlyingCule]

I would just like to point out that Smash 64 was supposed to go on the main stage too, before Smash 4, but the event was so behind on time that they were the ones who got sent to the secondary stream. They were furious, but Smash64 players are used to getting shafted so much by now that they never raised a stink. That's kind of sad.

So yeah, before anyone repeats the line "just send them to different streams!" or "Melee got shafted because of Smash 4!" don't forget that 64 would've had nothing if Smash 4 was on the secondary stream, and the Smash64 players still sacrificed way more than Melee at Apex, and they took it without so much as a peep.

All things considered, Melee and Smash 4 fans are really spoiled to think they got screwed in any way really. Smash 64 and Brawl basically got completely swept under the rug as always yet they didn't cause a stir. Smash 64 like you and I stated were forced onto a backup stream while Brawl was completely dropped from streaming altogether.

 

[pokemario]

I would just like to point out that Smash 64 was supposed to go on the main stage too, before Smash 4, but the event was so behind on time that they were the ones who got sent to the secondary stream. They were furious, but Smash64 players are used to getting shafted so much by now that they never raised a stink. That's kind of sad.

So yeah, before anyone repeats the line "just send them to different streams!" or "Melee got shafted because of Smash 4!" don't forget that 64 would've had nothing if Smash 4 was on the secondary stream, and the Smash64 players still sacrificed way more than Melee at Apex, and they took it without so much as a peep.

It would've been better if Sm4sh could have gotten streamed on Screwattack/VGBootcamp2/Bifuteki.