Event - Apex 2015 Smash Bros. for Wii U & Melee (Disrespect)

[MeteorD]

Wow so you mean those 1/3 are like jedi masters that know those stuffs about a totally different and new game? So given the choice, they'll opt to select melee only instead of having more games? They'll select melee only instead of melee + tekken 7 or melee + pokken? Just because they feel, say, the current meta is not fit for the competitive scene? Wow. Just wow.

Just because of that, people are willing to put any other game down. Even if it really didn't directly affect them. Do those people realize that they are taking away opportunities for other people to watch the game, to play the game in a competitive stage, to win money, and to be something big. Just because of some opinion.

Of course Melee players are going to bother with finding out things about Sm4sh. Nobody is going to bother ****talking it before finding out whether or not it has the depth and/or speed for them to be interested in it, you seem to be under the assumption Melee players **** on Sm4sh without knowing anything about it.

I'm really not sure what you're even implying here, if Tekken 7 and Pokken were slow as **** and had a terribly boring meta, then why the in hell wouldn't you vote against it rather than let that spot be taken for something more worthy of a slot? I don't even know why you're dragging Pokken or Tekken into this to begin with though.

You don't seem to realize that having a certain game appear at EVO means it will take up time on the schedule, and locale space, which could've gone to a more fitting fighting game with a meta that isn't that bad. This has jack **** to do with opinions, this has to do with what game is more beneficial to have at EVO. Sm4sh got a free ride this time because of Nintendo, but that doesn't change that alot of people would still be against it appearing because of the way it plays.

If the world was some sort of fair paradise where there is endless amount of space and fighting game tournaments can feature absolutely every single game ever then you'd have a point, but that's not how it works at all. Your viewpoint is so ridiculously childish and takes very little things into consideration when trying to form an opinion on this, and frankly it comes across as ignorant, especially with the whole "why can't EVERY game be there". Well tough break, that's not how the world works, and if it did work that way then Skullgirls players wouldn't have been pissed during the game announcements. I can only imagine what your reaction would've been if there had been 100 options for different fighting games and everyone didn't vote "all of them".

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Of course Melee players are going to bother with finding out things about Sm4sh. Nobody is going to bother ****talking it before finding out whether or not it has the depth and/or speed for them to be interested in it, you seem to be under the assumption Melee players **** on Sm4sh without knowing anything about it.

Given what I have seen people say and not know this is actually very much true right now.

Though some of it is forgivable given the age of the game, but they look really foolish when a lot of them show they really don't know what they are talking about.

 

[byebye]

Of course Melee players are going to bother with finding out things about Sm4sh. Nobody is going to bother ****talking it before finding out whether or not it has the depth and/or speed for them to be interested in it, you seem to be under the assumption Melee players **** on Sm4sh without knowing anything about it.

I'm really not sure what you're even implying here, if Tekken 7 and Pokken were slow as **** and had a terribly boring meta, then why the in hell wouldn't you vote against it rather than let that spot be taken for something more worthy of a slot? I don't even know why you're dragging Pokken or Tekken into this to begin with though.

You don't seem to realize that having a certain game appear at EVO means it will take up time on the schedule, and locale space, which could've gone to a more fitting fighting game with a meta that isn't that bad. This has jack **** to do with opinions, this has to do with what game is more beneficial to have at EVO. Sm4sh got a free ride this time because of Nintendo, but that doesn't change that alot of people would still be against it appearing because of the way it plays.

If the world was some sort of fair paradise where there is endless amount of space and fighting game tournaments can feature absolutely every single game ever then you'd have a point, but that's not how it works at all. Your viewpoint is so ridiculously childish and takes very little things into consideration when trying to form an opinion on this, and frankly it comes across as ignorant, especially with the whole "why can't EVERY game be there". Well tough break, that's not how the world works, and if it did work that way then Skullgirls players wouldn't have been pissed during the game announcements. I can only imagine what your reaction would've been if there had been 100 options for different fighting games and everyone didn't vote "all of them".

Look are you a TO or something?

Don't put in the discussion about time space and cost and stuff.

Because the question back then was really a fair paradise situation. Its as simple as melee, smash 4 or both? Nothing more, nothing less.

I understand you're trying to justify people picking melee only. But on that situation what will you lose ifboth games are in?

It's like, which would you like to have a candy? You, your younger brother, or both?

 

[MeteorD]

Look are you a TO or something?

Don't put in the discussion about time space and cost and stuff.

Because the question back then was really a fair paradise situation. Its as simple as melee, smash 4 or both? Nothing more, nothing less.

I understand you're trying to justify people picking melee only. But on that situation what will you lose ifboth games are in?

It's like, which would you like to have a candy? You, your younger brother, or both?

Are you trying to write off cost as something irrelevant, because when deciding games it's very relevant. Melee players personally don't lose anything from Sm4sh appearing at EVO, but it will take up time on the schedule and space in the local which could've gone for a fighting game that deserves it more and has a more exciting meta. Stop trying to write this down into poor metaphores, just aknowledge the fact that voting for Melee only has jack point **** to do with hatred towards the game.

You're trying to write off Melee players as inconsiderate when in reality voting both from their viewpoint would've been even more inconsiderate, as there are other fighting games more in need of appearing at EVO. Games like KoF and Skullgirls are examples of games that could possibly have made it in instead of Sm4sh, which the people in question could've considered more fit for those spots. It's like you don't take any of the factors into consideration and see anyone who does as a heartless monster.

 

[byebye]

Are you trying to write off cost as something irrelevant, because when deciding games it's very relevant. Melee players personally don't lose anything from Sm4sh appearing at EVO, but it will take up time on the schedule and space in the local which could've gone for a fighting game that deserves it more and has a more exciting meta. Stop trying to write this down into poor metaphores, just aknowledge the fact that voting for Melee only has jack point **** to do with hatred towards the game.

You're trying to write off Melee players as inconsiderate when in reality voting both from their viewpoint would've been even more inconsiderate, as there are other fighting games more in need of appearing at EVO. Games like KoF and Skullgirls are examples of games that could possibly have made it in instead of Sm4sh, which the people in question could've considered more fit for those spots. It's like you don't take any of the factors into consideration and see anyone who does as a heartless monster.

Look, we have 8 games in evo last year and 8 games too, 2 years back. This year we have 9. Which includes smash wii u. Now tell me all about how smash 4 stole a slot for kof.

Going back. Melee + 7 other games or melee + smash 4 + 7 other games. And you'll pick melee only?

Its not even about a slot. It's just melee, 4, or both. No other games are in question.

 

[Mayday]

Are you trying to write off cost as something irrelevant, because when deciding games it's very relevant. Melee players personally don't lose anything from Sm4sh appearing at EVO, but it will take up time on the schedule and space in the local which could've gone for a fighting game that deserves it more and has a more exciting meta. Stop trying to write this down into poor metaphores, just aknowledge the fact that voting for Melee only has jack point **** to do with hatred towards the game.

You're trying to write off Melee players as inconsiderate when in reality voting both from their viewpoint would've been even more inconsiderate, as there are other fighting games more in need of appearing at EVO. Games like KoF and Skullgirls are examples of games that could possibly have made it in instead of Sm4sh, which the people in question could've considered more fit for those spots. It's like you don't take any of the factors into consideration and see anyone who does as a heartless monster.

KoF had a horrible showing last year at Evo. Most people knew it wasn't going to be back

 

[MegaSilver]

Because a lot of Melee fans don't care about competitive Smash 4 and vice versa, and Smash 4 should be able to stand on its own.

So that means fans of the same franchise can't get along, even if they play different entries in said series?

 

[MeteorD]

Look, we have 8 games in evo last year and 8 games too, 2 years back. This year we have 9. Which includes smash wii u. Now tell me all about how smash 4 stole a slot for kof.

Going back. Melee + 7 other games or melee + smash 4 + 7 other games. And you'll pick melee only?

Its not even about a slot. It's just melee, 4, or both. No other games are in question.

The point is that Melee + Sm4sh + 7 other games would mean that it takes up time in a schedule which could've gone to another game that's actually exciting to watch, what part about this don't you understand? I'm not saying that Sm4sh stole a spot from KoF, I'm telling you that there is a large possibility that if it had not been entered into EVO then another game would've been able to fit into the schedule.

KoF had a horrible showing last year at Evo. Most people knew it wasn't going to be back

KoF was an example, personally I didn't even bother watching it last EVO. It's been considered tradition at EVO by now though, so removing it was still a controversial point when it got replaced by a game that the majority of communities of the other represented games don't approve of.

 

[anikom15]

So that means fans of the same franchise can't get along, even if they play different entries in said series?

Did I say that? You can't expect people to 'get along' when a tournament is causing their own tournament to be delayed to early Monday morning. People despise Mondays.

 

[jsmoe]

The point is that Melee + Sm4sh + 7 other games would mean that it takes up time in a schedule which could've gone to another game that's actually exciting to watch, what part about this don't you understand? I'm not saying that Sm4sh stole a spot from KoF, I'm telling you that there is a large possibility that if it had not been entered into EVO then another game would've been able to fit into the schedule.



KoF was an example, personally I didn't even bother watching it last EVO. It's been considered tradition at EVO by now though, so removing it was still a controversial point when it got replaced by a game that the majority of communities of the other represented games don't approve of.

A. traditions break
B. saying sm4sh 4 isnt fun to watch is COMPLETELY subjective
C.there are as many sm4sh fans as there are melee fans.

it was 1am on a sunday, most people (myself included) had obligations the next day and with the worsening weather it was becoming more and more unsafe. i personally called out of work (5 hour drive in a blizzard, work was more of a secondary)

 

[MegaSilver]

Did I say that? You can't expect people to 'get along' when a tournament is causing their own tournament to be delayed to early Monday morning. People despise Mondays.

Don't you think that had more to do with losing 1/3 of the tournament time with the issues on Friday?

 

[byebye]

The point is that Melee + Sm4sh + 7 other games would mean that it takes up time in a schedule which could've gone to another game that's actually exciting to watch, what part about this don't you understand? I'm not saying that Sm4sh stole a spot from KoF, I'm telling you that there is a large possibility that if it had not been entered into EVO then another game would've been able to fit into the schedule.

and my point was the question just focuses on melee and smash4. along the lines of there are no other games existed and infinite resources, would you have liked melee only, 4 only or both.

besides, if we consider your point, which is along the lines of:
melee + some other game > melee + smash 4

are you saying that you support some other game out there that you may or may not like than to put your support on smash 4?

also what is exciting to watch for you may or may not be exciting to watch for others.

also, are you saying that you're willing to have the chance to watch those other games than give an opportunity to your co-smashers to play their game?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

KoF was an example, personally I didn't even bother watching it last EVO. It's been considered tradition at EVO by now though, so removing it was still a controversial point when it got replaced by a game that the majority of communities of the other represented games don't approve of.

Anyone who hates smash isn't going to like either version. I wouldn't be worried about views either way on that hate.

Melee and Smash 4 both have gotten pretty strong viewership.

 

[MeteorD]

and my point was the question just focuses on melee and smash4. along the lines of there are no other games existed and infinite resources, would you have liked melee only, 4 only or both.

besides, if we consider your point, which is along the lines of:
melee + some other game > melee + smash 4

are you saying that you support some other game out there that you may or may not like than to put your support on smash 4?

also what is exciting to watch for you may or may not be exciting to watch for others.

also, are you saying that you're willing to have the chance to watch those other games than give an opportunity to your co-smashers to play their game?

I'm saying that the people who voted Melee most likely considered Melee + some other game being better than Melee + Sm4sh. The general reaction to the top 8 of Sm4sh explains itself, especially with the commentators making terrible attempts at playing of very minor things as incredibly hype simply because there was no genuine hype. Melee players don't have a duty to vote for Sm4sh for EVO, while all that #oneunit **** is going on, that doesn't change that players are individuals. Putting some weird obligation to Sm4sh simply because they enjoy Melee seems incredibly backwards, and a terrible attempt to gain false support just because they're from the same franchise.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm saying that the people who voted Melee most likely considered Melee + some other game being better than Melee + Sm4sh. The general reaction to the top 8 of Sm4sh explains itself, especially with the commentators making terrible attempts at playing of very minor things as incredibly hype simply because there was no genuine hype. Melee players don't have a duty to vote for Sm4sh for EVO, while all that #oneunit **** is going on, that doesn't change that players are individuals. Putting some weird obligation to Sm4sh simply because they enjoy Melee seems incredibly backwards, and a terrible attempt to gain false support just because they're from the same franchise.

General? I've heard mixed things at worst. There is no general concencous outside of telling people to stop the in between game coaching in some form and starting best of 5 as early as they did.

Otherwise the reaction to the top 8 isn't clear and cut.

 

[Mayday]

Anyone who hates smash isn't going to like either version. I wouldn't be worried about views either way on that hate.

Melee and Smash 4 both have gotten pretty strong viewership.

And they have had a solid number of entrants. I can't think of any other new game they could have added that will pull more entrants and viewers than Smash 4 that's not already there

 

[platomaker]

Imagine if the Superbowl was pushed off until late-night so the channel could show women's soccer? Not saying Soccer doesn't take skill, but it's not nearly as dynamic as Football, so American viewers prefer football.

This hate didn't happen because Melee players hate Sm4sh. It happened because no one was tuning/attending for Sm4sh, they were there for Melee. It's bigger, it's more popular. Did anyone else see all the 1's pressed when someone said "Press 1 if you're just here waiting for Melee." during Sm4sh top 8?

When it had its own stream, Sm4sh had around 20k viewers. Melee top 8 was happening at 1 in the morning on a Sunday night and it had 80. Whoever made the decision to stream Sm4sh first was trying to boost Sm4sh's popularity by getting Melee viewers to watch it before their top 8. Did you expect them to see the 18 minute sets and be happy? The bigger fanbase deserves the better airtime. This is what happens when you don't give the people what they want.

Funny you mentioned super bowl, since it was on, but also if you're comparing Melee to the super bowl you're putting it on a pretty high pedestal.

In my opinion it seems more like Nascar, what with the AT that MUST be followed in higher play (why would anyone NOT L-cancel? It be like trying turn to right instead of left during a Nascar race). The analogy makes even more sense when considering how obsessed leets are with how technical the game is, just as actual Nascar is. Sure enough, the "cars" that can exploit those "curves" better are the ones to rise to the top with some extraordinary exceptions.

Now you look at Smash 4, women's basketball you say. I can see that from someone who hasn't tried playing against some of these high level players. It really is a chess match that requires patience at times, and commitment at other times. Its just a pity that these tournaments are two stock only- that first stock means so much that even the Apex matches were extra campy, with good reason.

But I digress; bottom line here is for viewers- if the stream you're watching was interrupted to bring another game then go to another stream (or just stop watching). The people who were there live will have to be polite, put their egos to rest, and wait so others who traveled, paid real money, and endured the blizzard can have a chance at enjoying themselves.


byebye said: ↑

I can give the benefit of the doubt that it was just due people being stressed due to the situation. But since it happened before (Nairo : Brawl) - I don't think so. There's just something deeper in here. If the schedule would have gone ok, I won't be surprised if the crowd chanted "Melee" the first chance they have, whatever the reason is.

You see - most people I believe wants for us to be one unit. People don't want PM to die. People don't want Melee to die. People wants all games to be in harmony. But it seems that some Melee people don't want that.

1st shallow evidence: when Mr. Wizard asked us which game should be at Evo.
There became a thread with a poll for:
a.) Melee only
b.) Smash 4 only
c.) Both games should be at Evo.

guess what? while most voted for C = Both. it is surprising that a whopping 1/3 of the votes wanted Melee only! and no one can answer why. given the option for both to be there, people chose Melee only.

2nd evidence is what happened to Nairo and Zero on Brawl and Smash4's tourneys respectively.

I mean, what did Smash4 people did to the Melee people to get this kind of treatment?
Click to expand...

I'm not surpirsed, a lot of replies in this thread alone were eye openers to what extent people hate smash 4, brawl, and their player base. A small minority have already voiced that they love melee and hate smash bros. A lot of hate in one place.

I am curious to know what the results were for B, and if you have a link for this thread?


MeteorD said: ↑

I'm saying that the people who voted Melee most likely considered Melee + some other game being better than Melee + Sm4sh. The general reaction to the top 8 of Sm4sh explains itself, especially with the commentators making terrible attempts at playing of very minor things as incredibly hype simply because there was no genuine hype. Melee players don't have a duty to vote for Sm4sh for EVO, while all that #oneunit **** is going on, that doesn't change that players are individuals. Putting some weird obligation to Sm4sh simply because they enjoy Melee seems incredibly backwards, and a terrible attempt to gain false support just because they're from the same franchise.
Click to expand...

Let me toss some hypotheticals:

If you support the hashtag "oneunit", what does that really mean? Does that mean supporting all smash games? Does that mean tolerating all smash games?

"melee and some other game being better than Melee + Sm4sh", this completely defeats any notion of "oneunit". You can defend your choice- I just hope you can empathize and understand what that choice means to other people: if there's a choice between the two then there's a split in the community and "oneunit" IS indeed that weird obligation you spoke of.

So, trick question, do you support or tolerate Smash 4?

 

[platomaker]

deleted triple post. see above comment.

 

[platomaker]

deleted triple post see above comment and comment above that too.

 

[Player -0]

Can you edit your posts please? You just triple posted reallly hard.

 

[platomaker]

Can you edit your posts please? You just triple posted reallly hard.

me? I replied to three different posts. I couldn't reply while I was at work so I just did it all in succession just now.

I re-edited them into one post that can be safely ignored as the wall of text it is.

 

[MeteorD]

Let me toss some hypotheticals:

If you support the hashtag "oneunit", what does that really mean? Does that mean supporting all smash games? Does that mean tolerating all smash games?

"melee and some other game being better than Melee + Sm4sh", this completely defeats any notion of "oneunit". You can defend your choice- I just hope you can empathize and understand what that choice means to other people: if there's a choice between the two then there's a split in the community and "oneunit" IS indeed that weird obligation you spoke of.

So, trick question, do you support or tolerate Smash 4?

#oneunit always seemed unnecessarily forced to me, considering that the community is pretty split anyway. Personally I can't really say that I support Sm4sh appearing at tournaments at major tournaments at the moment, despite the fact that I still stay up to watch Sm4sh streams and ****. This is specifically because while the game itself is good, that doesn't change the fact that the metagame right now is ridiculously dull. I'm not opposed to the notion of Sm4sh at tournaments, but I am opposed to Sm4sh appearing at tournaments with very little enjoyability to offer.

 

[Pwii]

But the aerials can be fixed if you switch the c stick layout to tilts and that gives you the control you need once more (do I wish it didn't change at all? yes. but it is what it is.) I like aerial lag time, you can't mindlessly spam your aerials all day like Brawl and Melee with l cancelling and have to think a bit more methodically about your approach although at higher levels of play you're screwed if you do that anyways. The hitstun isn't actually that bad and lots of characters have strings that can be performed. Could there be just a tad more hitstun and shield stun? Of course, but not too much more tbh. The best reason I can give for liking Sm4sh as much as I do and not Brawl and even Melee is because ALOT more characters feel tourney viable to me. In this game it's about fundamentals and how well you apply them to make your characters work. Perfect Pivots, while not wavedashes, are useful to me and some other strats are pretty cool too I guess. The difference between the characters in tiers feel so small in this game from all that I've played so far, Link isn't absolute trash and Ganondorf (while not his melee self) is pretty awesome to use and is my main. I dunno, I just genuinely like this game alot more and want it to thrive. The thing that bothers me in this thread is, if everyone agrees that it wasn't acceptable to do what was done in the GF of SSB Wii U then why is it that people are coming up with excuses for them? There shouldn't be any excuses, either it was acceptable or not. No johns, no bs.

1. Switching to tilts takes away the option to do quick, easy Smashes. It forces a choice of control where there shouldn't be one.

2. It has nothing to do with spamming, it has everything to do with creativity. More lag time limits options and possibilities. inb4 "Some people like games without creativity, it's subjective!"

3. Characters have strings that can be performed, yes, but only a limited number of moves can be chosen for those strings. It takes away creativity, unless you want to rely on your opponent's bad DI/not airdodging.

4. The reason more characters feel viable is because the meta is young. PM 3.0 was not balanced very well, but it had lots of diversity because it was a relatively new meta. Also consider that Melee is the most balanced Smash game.

64 had Pikachu, Brawl had Metaknight. Previous versions of PM had Ivysaur, Sonic, Ike, and 3.0 had 6 characters. Which is still pretty impressive compared to most smashes, but Melee has 8. No matter what people tell you, Fox is not Metaknight. Sm4sh appears to be balanced, but only time will tell. Same goes for 3.5.

Not that I don't understand the appeal of a new meta, it's what made me want to pick up PM in the first place.

5. Not one person is making excuses. Find me one quote from this thread and I will edit this post admitting that you are 100% right. It's just that all the people getting buttblasted over this topic are misunderstanding why it happened, and blaming "Melee Elitism" #ButIt'sNotMelee when that's not why it happened. The chants were a rude way of communicating reasonable frustrations that a lot of people have, and most of the people in this thread are saying that they're "Toxic" for even having them.

 

[pokemario]

This is getting kinda off topic.

 

[Slaudial]

0-death combos for example are anti-competitive, and the fact that L-canceling and wave-dashing are highly touted aspects of the game by the community speaks to the actual lack of depth of the game, and thus needs ATs to separate the good players from the bad.

Damn it's like the most generic bad melee arguments ever right here

1. 0-death combos in Melee, wtf? Yeah, only somebody that doesn't know **** about Melee would blow things out of proportion so much. I swear, half the time someone on gamefaqs trashes Melee they spew the same garbage ' "Durrrr Melee is dum becuz the entire game is touch of death." No. Yeah, you can die off a single hit. Does it happen every time? No.
2. Don't know about how people feel about L-canceling, but things like wave-dashing and dash dancing aren't just things that are like "Lol get out casuals tourny**** only allowed." They make the game run smoothly. It's fun. I like having some goddamn control of my movement rather then these pseudo-platforming controls with goddamn moon physics that we have in some certain other smash games.

these arguments are seriously garbage okay

 

[Pwii]

For PM it might be easier but not for Melee, Melee if very unforgiving on someone trying to pick it up.

I agree you don't need it per say but it is far more helpful in many cases over nailing down fundamentals. I think Smash 4 is still easier by virtue of it's engine and how the speed of the game is.







I'll cover this all,

For the sugarcoating, it'll get better when the game pushes forward more. Right now there isn't a lot that people can comment and get used to in a 2 month old game at this point. "It's dumb character can do x" when really this kind of came up with Diddy a little but still wasn't that bad in the long run but will get better later.

~

Now about game choice and objectiveness.

What is objective with entertainment or enjoyment? I think Twilight Breaking Dawn Part 2 is one of the funniest movies I have seen in a long time but my friends hate it, in a it's so bad it's good. Am I wrong for thinking this? Is this objectively correct? You seem to imply there is one which I take a very strong issue with.

You're trying to define what is objectively the best and more entertaining to people in a medium and area that is subjective. The only objective thing you could try to measure is larger groups but that doesn't change the fact there is a group that likes watching that and isn't small by any means. There is no such thing in this medium with what people objectively people like and you seem to think that the only answer is that Smash 4 is new while seemingly ignoring other aspects that people might have with Melee and PM like I brought up.

Is a person wrong to suggest this like I would?

Smash 4>=Melee>>>>>>PM>=Brawl>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>64

Am I wrong for having this as my thoughts of what is best to worst in terms of what it appeals to me for? The largest issue is that you are expecting an objective standpoint in a choice that people pick with fighters that is almost entirely subjective. There is a lot to like Smash 4 over Melee for but you seem to think it is a simple objective choice over one that is subjective in the end no matter how you try to argue it. I take a strong issue with this because you think it is a clear cut choice when isn't close to being that simple for each person.

Game quality is one thing, what appeals to people is another. None of the smash games fail at quality or appeal.

~

Now for design in games.

I don't like the design of making a fighter artificially harder just to make it harder if it doesn't add anything to the game itself or lacks actual choice with game-play. This is a turn off for me and I don't like this kind of thing showing up again in PM when I know there is a strong push for wanting it removed but are among a silent group. L-canceling does require, a little, bit of timing to it, but again it doesn't offer choice or make gameplay deeper even worse when a lot of those options people can try to mess with it are ruined if you L-cancel in a slightly tighter window, 4-5 frame window you can L-cancel and cover every single option your opponent can try to do to mess you up on this. If L-cancelling actually offered choice like Wavedashing does, I would be for it. But in the end it doesn't and it can be a legit turn off for many players. PM has made it better for people to practice it, but in the end it still is an arbitrary tech barrier that has no purpose other than to keep "bad people" out from performing.

I think Crouch cancelling removing hitstun is far more intrusive than anything Smash 4 could do by a long shot. You can at least plan against an air dodge or how someone will act in situations through bait and test with PvP. There isn't a whole lot of counter play and offers an option to everyone to really make a lot of options not viable or even make characters awful because it exists. It's far worse with punishing on hit, a lot worse. This might be more personal though, I have no issue with it being used to reduce knockback and damage, but reducing hitstun is where I have a legitimate issue with it. And I played Brawl since release.

Some of your comments on Smash 4's gameplay really isn't true at all. Fallspeed isn't Melee fast but it's faster than Brawl's might have been with control and raw speed. Might seem bad to some, but some people don't want to fall like a rock when they play smash sometimes. Yeah no one can convert ground mobility to air, but maybe that is a balancing factor for people who have good air speed vs characters with fast ground speed dominating a lot of the meta like Melee does. The only reason mention aerial lag is a backlash at some aerials getting higher landing lag as some of them rightfully should. A lot of aerials aren't that laggy depending on the user and what they do, not at all. Falcon's Knee? yes it has a ton of landing lag, that was done so you couldn't nail this on shield all day or Marth can outspace and pretty much make a lot of the cast unable to face him because he can just space them out with a huge sword all day. With all of the other good traits he already had. Movement and control isn't an issue either, the game is crisp smooth in that regard and offers pivoting and better dash options than Brawl had since tripping is gone.

To be fair on this point though, I don't think the smash series has gotten shield to a "good balanced" point. It's a little far on both sides of the spectrum but not terrible in some cases. 64 and Brawl Shields are pretty dumb for opposing reasons.

There are traits with design people can like and dislike, me and PM do not get along in this regard but I don't hate it. But there are valid reasons to consider another game over the others.

Sorry if this is long, but I wanted to make my points across and clear on what might work for one person over another and how design can be more appealing to other people.

Objectiveness when it comes to entertainment is not what I am talking about. I am talking about objectiveness in competition. Tripping is an objectively bad competitive mechanic, which added to Brawl being an objectively bad competitive game. Can you refute that?

"Sm4sh's fallspeed it's not as bad as Brawl, but not as good as Melee". How is this not proving me right? Higher fall speed adds for faster and more fluid movement options (See: Tomahawk, empty jump fakeouts). As for "Some people don't want to fall like a rock," I'm not speaking of what most fans want, I'm speaking of what's best competitively, which is obviously faster characters.

Also in your section on movement, all you can say is "It's not as bad as Brawl." I know that, let's see you compare it to Melee's options. Melee's movement, even if you take out wavedashing, is incredible. The Dashdance system is fluid, while not being completely unpunishable with characters breaking into runs after a bit. You can quickly and easily cancel dashes with crouches, and even jump cancel into upsmashes or grabs.

Funny you mentioned super bowl, since it was on, but also if you're comparing Melee to the super bowl you're putting it on a pretty high pedestal.

In my opinion it seems more like Nascar, what with the AT that MUST be followed in higher play (why would anyone NOT L-cancel? It be like trying turn to right instead of left during a Nascar race). The analogy makes even more sense when considering how obsessed leets are with how technical the game is, just as actual Nascar is. Sure enough, the "cars" that can exploit those "curves" better are the ones to rise to the top with some extraordinary exceptions.

Now you look at Smash 4, women's basketball you say. I can see that from someone who hasn't tried playing against some of these high level players. It really is a chess match that requires patience at times, and commitment at other times. Its just a pity that these tournaments are two stock only- that first stock means so much that even the Apex matches were extra campy, with good reason.

But I digress; bottom line here is for viewers- if the stream you're watching was interrupted to bring another game then go to another stream (or just stop watching). The people who were there live will have to be polite, put their egos to rest, and wait so others who traveled, paid real money, and endured the blizzard can have a chance at enjoying themselves.


byebye said: ↑

I can give the benefit of the doubt that it was just due people being stressed due to the situation. But since it happened before (Nairo : Brawl) - I don't think so. There's just something deeper in here. If the schedule would have gone ok, I won't be surprised if the crowd chanted "Melee" the first chance they have, whatever the reason is.

You see - most people I believe wants for us to be one unit. People don't want PM to die. People don't want Melee to die. People wants all games to be in harmony. But it seems that some Melee people don't want that.

1st shallow evidence: when Mr. Wizard asked us which game should be at Evo.
There became a thread with a poll for:
a.) Melee only
b.) Smash 4 only
c.) Both games should be at Evo.

guess what? while most voted for C = Both. it is surprising that a whopping 1/3 of the votes wanted Melee only! and no one can answer why. given the option for both to be there, people chose Melee only.

2nd evidence is what happened to Nairo and Zero on Brawl and Smash4's tourneys respectively.

I mean, what did Smash4 people did to the Melee people to get this kind of treatment?
Click to expand...

I'm not surpirsed, a lot of replies in this thread alone were eye openers to what extent people hate smash 4, brawl, and their player base. A small minority have already voiced that they love melee and hate smash bros. A lot of hate in one place.

I am curious to know what the results were for B, and if you have a link for this thread?


MeteorD said: ↑

I'm saying that the people who voted Melee most likely considered Melee + some other game being better than Melee + Sm4sh. The general reaction to the top 8 of Sm4sh explains itself, especially with the commentators making terrible attempts at playing of very minor things as incredibly hype simply because there was no genuine hype. Melee players don't have a duty to vote for Sm4sh for EVO, while all that #oneunit **** is going on, that doesn't change that players are individuals. Putting some weird obligation to Sm4sh simply because they enjoy Melee seems incredibly backwards, and a terrible attempt to gain false support just because they're from the same franchise.
Click to expand...

Let me toss some hypotheticals:

If you support the hashtag "oneunit", what does that really mean? Does that mean supporting all smash games? Does that mean tolerating all smash games?

"melee and some other game being better than Melee + Sm4sh", this completely defeats any notion of "oneunit". You can defend your choice- I just hope you can empathize and understand what that choice means to other people: if there's a choice between the two then there's a split in the community and "oneunit" IS indeed that weird obligation you spoke of.

So, trick question, do you support or tolerate Smash 4?

My analogy was hyperbolicly referring to popularity levels, not gameplay similarities. And comparing Sm4sh to Chess is an insult to chess; it's meta has been around longer than video games, and even with the Queen buff that everyone complained about for a while, it's a far superior competitive game than any video game I've seen in my life. You can play tons of viable styles, and it requires insane levels of intelligence.

I guess what you were going for was the intense thought that has to be put into every move. But what you don't understand is that Melee has this too; it just requires it to be performed in a smaller time frame, with more options, along with more creativity. Watch PP do analysis of his match vs Armada and you'll see what I mean.

Also lol it wasn't Twitch chat that was ruining the experience for the attendees. That would be the Apex staff.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Objectiveness when it comes to entertainment is not what I am talking about. I am talking about objectiveness in competition. Tripping is an objectively bad competitive mechanic, which added to Brawl being an objectively bad competitive game. Can you refute that?

"Sm4sh's fallspeed t's not as bad as Brawl, but not as good as Melee". How is this not proving me right? Higher fall speed adds for faster and more fluid movement options (See: Tomahawk, empty jump fakeouts). As for "Some people don't want to fall like a rock," I'm not speaking of what most fans want, I'm speaking of what's best competitively, which is obviously faster characters.

Also in your section on movement, all you can say is "It's not as bad as Brawl." I know that, let's see you compare it to Melee's options. Melee's movement, even if you take out wavedashing, is incredible. The Dashdance system is fluid, while not being completely unpunishable with characters breaking into runs after a bit. You can quickly and easily cancel dashes with crouches, and even jump cancel into upsmashes or grabs.

My analogy was hyperbolicly referring to popularity levels, not gameplay similarities. And comparing Sm4sh to Chess is an insult to chess; it's meta has been around longer than video games, and even with the Queen buff that everyone complained about for a while, it's a far superior competitive game than any video game I've seen in my life. You can play tons of viable styles, and it requires insane levels of intelligence.

I guess what you were going for was the intense thought that has to be put into every move. But what you don't understand is that Melee has this too; it just requires it to be performed in a smaller time frame, with more options, along with more creativity. Watch PP do analysis of his match vs Armada and you'll see what I mean.

Also lol it wasn't Twitch chat that was ruining the experience for the attendees. That would be the Apex staff.

Tripping is objective.

The rest is not, definitely the ones about fall speed.

If raw options is all that mattered we would all play tekken.

Again when you ignore the subjective angle you miss entirely how different fighters can have an appeal. Smash 4 offers that appeal in a lot of ways Melee does not even in gameplay.

 

[Pwii]

You can, sort of.

http://smashboards.com/threads/at-run-stop-cancel.364666/#post-17320373

EDIT: All the info I posted was wrong... sorry

lol

Tripping is objective.

The rest is not, definitely the ones about fall speed.

If raw options is all that mattered we would all play tekken.

Again when you ignore the subjective angle you miss entirely how different fighters can have an appeal. Smash 4 offers that appeal in a lot of ways Melee does not even in gameplay.

Explain to me how one element of a game can be anti-competitive while the rest is up to opinion? Some people like tripping; my little sister thinks it's funny and it adds to the gameplay :^)

You actually have made the first good point in favor of Sm4sh I have ever seen. New fighters are cool, and it adds more ways to play the game. This is one good point it has over Melee, assuming these new creative fighters are viable. I still think Melee's combined advantages that it has over Sm4sh outweigh this, but that is a valid argument.

Also brb getting Tekken

 

[NewLandofSand]

Hmm, idk what to think

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

lol

Not the OP of the thread, try again. That info is still valid.

Explain to me how one element of a game can be anti-competitive while the rest is up to opinion? Some people like tripping; my little sister thinks it's funny and it adds to the gameplay :^)

You actually have made the first good point in favor of Sm4sh I have ever seen. New fighters are cool, and it adds more ways to play the game. This is one good point it has over Melee, assuming these new creative fighters are viable. I still think Melee's combined advantages that it has over Sm4sh outweigh this, but that is a valid argument.

Also brb getting Tekken

Faster falling is anti-competitive? No it is a trait of the game. It's not even just fighters, its how it can be played and practiced, the use of custom moves in sets, it is still fluid in movement and offers options not present in Melee.

A different balance a different engine.

You keep trying to dismiss these as invalid when really they are very valid reasons for people to pick up on game or another. It's not all about what is the best competitive game, people don't walk up and ask this when they pick up and try to get good at something.

They do it because they enjoy it for one reason or another.

 

[Pwii]

Not the OP of the thread, try again. That info is still valid.



Faster falling is anti-competitive? No it is a trait of the game. It's not even just fighters, its how it can be played and practiced, the use of custom moves in sets, it is still fluid in movement and offers options not present in Melee.

A different balance a different engine.

You keep trying to dismiss these as invalid when really they are very valid reasons for people to pick up on game or another. It's not all about what is the best competitive game, people don't walk up and ask this when they pick up and try to get good at something.

They do it because they enjoy it for one reason or another.

I know that quality=/= likelyhood of players choosing it. This doesn't mean quality as an objective concept doesn't exist.

Different games are going to be played differently. I don't actually play Chess even though I think its meta is better than Melee because I enjoy the way I play Melee more. What I AM saying is that when you compare Melee to Sm4sh, pretty much everything that makes Sm4sh fun is done better in Melee (except that one point you made). The combos allow for more creativity. The movement is more fluid and less restrictive. Attack options are more abundant. It plays faster. There is no limit to how to express your talent. People could not Waveshine->Usmash in 06. But because of the depth of the game, players can push themselves to techniques considered impossible. Are you going to tell me that having no ceiling on skill is just a subjective thing that players might not like? 20XX already arrived for Brawl and it's nauseating. Melee can still evolve, and I think that's exciting.

Also lol I should've read that thread all the way through. I'm actually going to try and do that now.

EDIT: Maybe we should get back on topic. I'll say this: You can't compare apples to oranges (Chess to Smash) when it comes to games, but Smash games are similar enough so that you can compare them to see which one is better.

EDIT EDIT: Crap that's not even the original topic.

 

[revengeska]

0-death combos for example are anti-competitive, and the fact that L-canceling and wave-dashing are highly touted aspects of the game by the community speaks to the actual lack of depth of the game, and thus needs ATs to separate the good players from the bad.

Damn it's like the most generic bad melee arguments ever right here

1. 0-death combos in Melee, wtf? Yeah, only somebody that doesn't know **** about Melee would blow things out of proportion so much. I swear, half the time someone on gamefaqs trashes Melee they spew the same garbage ' "Durrrr Melee is dum becuz the entire game is touch of death." No. Yeah, you can die off a single hit. Does it happen every time? No.
2. Don't know about how people feel about L-canceling, but things like wave-dashing and dash dancing aren't just things that are like "Lol get out casuals tourny**** only allowed." They make the game run smoothly. It's fun. I like having some goddamn control of my movement rather then these pseudo-platforming controls with goddamn moon physics that we have in some certain other smash games.

these arguments are seriously garbage okay

So you're saying that the 0-death combo being anti-competitive argument is garbage, yet you freely ADMIT that it's in the game and your only argument that it's not anti-competitive is that it doesn't happen every time? Also, your preference of movement or physics is irrelevant to whether something is anti-competitive or not.

Why waste everyone's time making yourself look like a complete moron?

I know that quality=/= likelyhood of players choosing it. This doesn't mean quality as an objective concept doesn't exist.

Different games are going to be played differently. I don't actually play Chess even though I think its meta is better than Melee because I enjoy the way I play Melee more. What I AM saying is that when you compare Melee to Sm4sh, pretty much everything that makes Sm4sh fun is done better in Melee (except that one point you made). The combos allow for more creativity. The movement is more fluid and less restrictive. Attack options are more abundant. It plays faster. There is no limit to how to express your talent. People could not Waveshine->Usmash in 06. But because of the depth of the game, players can push themselves to techniques considered impossible. Are you going to tell me that having no ceiling on skill is just a subjective thing that players might not like? 20XX already arrived for Brawl and it's nauseating. Melee can still evolve, and I think that's exciting.

Also lol I should've read that thread all the way through. I'm actually going to try and do that now.

EDIT: Maybe we should get back on topic. I'll say this: You can't compare apples to oranges (Chess to Smash) when it comes to games, but Smash games are similar enough so that you can compare them to see which one is better.

EDIT EDIT: Crap that's not even the original topic.

Interesting that you keep coming back to Chess as a comparison, because I actually DO play Chess at a national level, most recently at the 2014 US Open.

I look at Melee, and I see L-canceling, Wave-dashing, inescapable combos, etc, and it reminds me of chess opening theory. In high level tournament play, you need to memorize specific move orders of a number of different openings because you can expect your opponent has done the same and if you don't do it you are bound to go wrong and end up worse or even crushed right out of the gate. I see having to practice a lot of muscle memory and memorizing lots of different things in order to play Melee at any sort of competitive level. I dislike studying opening theory because it's boring, and I have no inclination to practice L-canceling timing or what combos will achieve what knockback against what characters to ensure death, either.

I look at Smash 4, and I see a wide variety of characters with unique strengths and movesets. There isn't a lot of tech to practice, it's all about strategy and mind games and outwitting your opponent. And you have to do this on a consistent basis. There are no inescapable combos to die from on one mistake, so it allows the better player with the superior strategy to consistently outplay the opponent and win the game. I don't care that characters didn't always bounce up and down real fast or that a character wasn't getting hit 6 times in the course of a blink, I highly enjoyed the Smash 4 stream because I saw an incredible depth to the gameplay and the speed had no bearing on that. This to me is comparable to the middle game in Chess, where you rely on your skills to outplay your opponent in a position neither of you have ever seen before. It's not always an exciting, action packed game, but if you understand what's going on it can be very interesting nonetheless.

I'm okay with you preferring Melee over Smash 4 or every other game in existence that doesn't model itself after Melee. Really, I am. But I do take offense to the #ButItsNotMelee attitude of pretending that anything that's not Melee and anyone who prefers other games are inferior and should be looked down upon. I would rather the communities split and host their own tournaments than be in a community with people with that attitude. I want no part of it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I know that quality=/= likelyhood of players choosing it. This doesn't mean quality as an objective concept doesn't exist.

Different games are going to be played differently. I don't actually play Chess even though I think its meta is better than Melee because I enjoy the way I play Melee more. What I AM saying is that when you compare Melee to Sm4sh, pretty much everything that makes Sm4sh fun is done better in Melee (except that one point you made). The combos allow for more creativity. The movement is more fluid and less restrictive. Attack options are more abundant. It plays faster. There is no limit to how to express your talent. People could not Waveshine->Usmash in 06. But because of the depth of the game, players can push themselves to techniques considered impossible. Are you going to tell me that having no ceiling on skill is just a subjective thing that players might not like? 20XX already arrived for Brawl and it's nauseating. Melee can still evolve, and I think that's exciting.

Also lol I should've read that thread all the way through. I'm actually going to try and do that now.

The problems with an objective concept is that is offers what a main goal of something is and what it tries to appeal to.

The issue is you say everything is done better but is it? Is falling faster better for a competitive game? It's not objectively better.

Game design is not that cut and clear outside of obvious bad ideas like tripping or L-Cancelling. Or good innovative ideas like custom movesets, amazing idea actually.

Gaming no matter how you cut it is a subjective medium in this way. The audience and players will decide it's fate. And so far Smash 4 is looking strong on both a competitive and casual level.

Smash 4 isn't at all outclassed by Melee and Melee is not without it's flaws that Smash 4 fixes.

The issue is the elitism and people really having a "this or go home" mentality. It's really why I'm not a big fan of PM in the first place.

 

[xaszatm]

So...was I truly the only person who enjoyed the Smash 4 tournament? Including the top 8? Because the vibe i'm getting here is that I shouldn't even try to play Smash 4 competitively because everyone has already decided that the game isn't going to be competitive. Like, what? I thought Smash 4 had 800+ people playing, a number that trumped Apex 2014's Melee numbers. People are saying that a tournament that big didn't deserve the big screen?

I like Melee but the fact that Zero got this much disrespect really hurts me and makes me and many players like me less wiling to join the community.

 

[Nintenpro]

I don't think this topic was created to compare smash4 and melee. Especially when you can't accept that people can prefer brawl/smash4 physics. Why do you always want to prove that your game is better ? Just play the game(s) you like.

So...was I truly the only person who enjoyed the Smash 4 tournament? Including the top 8?

No you're clearly not the only one. There a lot of people who enjoyed the Smash 4 tournament, people who disliked it are just the most vocal.

 

[xaszatm]

I don't think this topic was created to compare smash4 and melee. Especially when you can't accept that people can prefer brawl/smash4 physics. Why do you always want to prove that your game is better ? Just play the game(s) you like.


No you're clearly not the only one. There a lot of people who enjoyed the Smash 4 tournament, people who disliked it are just the most vocal.

But simply reading the news and the comments underneath them seems to imply that Smash 4 is horrible because of how different the mechanics are in comparison to Melee. I know there were people who watched Smash 4 but going by the youtube like/dislike system the videos are split at best compared to Melee's all likes. That doesn't scream a system everyone likes. I honestly had no idea that Melee was this loved that it would see any sequel a threat.

 

[Hegemony]

This is something absolutely any community would've done if their game got delayed by something which plays heavily different from their own. [...] this is how any regular human would've acted.

See. This sounds believable until you remember that the very same happened to Nairo when he won Brawl. I certainly don't recall there being any delays or, as you put it, absolutely justifiable cause for "Let's express our relief by chanting Melee and robbing the guy of his victory!" That very fact makes it very obvious that there is something deeper running afoot. These are not simply isolated incidents and you trying to justify people's bad behaviors is somewhat appalling.

Let's use an example. Have you ever seen a parent yell at their kid because they were frustrated and tired? Yeah, I sympathize with being tired, but I will not sympathize nor will I justify a parent taking out their exhaustion and frustration on a third-party, much less their own child. This is exactly the same with the members who took part in the Melee chant against ZeRo. In fact, I very much feel like this is what this entire spat is: an in-family fight (though I must say Melee is less the parent and more the older brother in this metaphor). Hmm, you know what, I'm going to take this metaphor the full-ride and hopefully it works; they're caricatures, so please don't take it as generalizations.

So we have the older brother, who is undoubtedly cooler for having survived a rougher time with their parents (who didn't want him to become the way he did), and is now kind of enjoying a rejuvenated life that he believes (rightfully so) that he's earned. Hell, he's even got a cool documentary about him and the eldest brother who's off doing something or another. Then comes the youngest, who is not only adored by his parents, but also has support from his parents to become what the older brother is. On top of that, he's trying to stand next to his older brother and all the older can see is this little snot of a kid who has it so much easier than him and thinks he's on par with him. What nerve! The older struggled through with his own willpower to get this far and here's this brother of his. Sure, the younger brother is young and doesn't know much about himself yet, but he's definitely uncool and boring.

Right now, we seem to be at the point where the older brother believes that he is absolutely unrelated to this lame younger brother and that all they have in common is their last name and their parents. Moments of frustration come and go as he sees the younger auntil eventually, circumstances beyond their control come between them and they both pop off, leading to this tension and looming presence of a split.

But you know, in the end, you're family. You're related, whether you hate to admit it or not. And I can only hope that the community realizes this in a kinder light someday, especially with the quiet farewell of the middle brother. You don't have to live in the same house (#oneunit all that business), but you can certainly respect each other and let the other do what they want to do. If you're not a family person, sorry about this metaphor.

P.S. Please stop trying to be objective about what 'fun' is. I know critics love to try and people will say X and Y is objectively not-fun, but by virtue or vice of human diversity, there will be someone out there who considers it fun. Stating your opinion is fine, but do you really gain anything out of coming up to someone enjoying something and saying 'you're doing it wrong'?

 

[MeteorD]

See. This sounds believable until you remember that the very same happened to Nairo when he won Brawl. I certainly don't recall there being any delays or, as you put it, absolutely justifiable cause for "Let's express our relief by chanting Melee and robbing the guy of his victory!" That very fact makes it very obvious that there is something deeper running afoot. These are not simply isolated incidents and you trying to justify people's bad behaviors is somewhat appalling.

Let's use an example. Have you ever seen a parent yell at their kid because they were frustrated and tired? Yeah, I sympathize with being tired, but I will not sympathize nor will I justify a parent taking out their exhaustion and frustration on a third-party, much less their own child. This is exactly the same with the members who took part in the Melee chant against ZeRo. In fact, I very much feel like this is what this entire spat is: an in-family fight (though I must say Melee is less the parent and more the older brother in this metaphor). Hmm, you know what, I'm going to take this metaphor the full-ride and hopefully it works; they're caricatures, so please don't take it as generalizations.

So we have the older brother, who is undoubtedly cooler for having survived a rougher time with their parents (who didn't want him to become the way he did), and is now kind of enjoying a rejuvenated life that he believes (rightfully so) that he's earned. Hell, he's even got a cool documentary about him and the eldest brother who's off doing something or another. Then comes the youngest, who is not only adored by his parents, but also has support from his parents to become what the older brother is. On top of that, he's trying to stand next to his older brother and all the older can see is this little snot of a kid who has it so much easier than him and thinks he's on par with him. What nerve! The older struggled through with his own willpower to get this far and here's this brother of his. Sure, the younger brother is young and doesn't know much about himself yet, but he's definitely uncool and boring.

Right now, we seem to be at the point where the older brother believes that he is absolutely unrelated to this lame younger brother and that all they have in common is their last name and their parents. Moments of frustration come and go as he sees the younger auntil eventually, circumstances beyond their control come between them and they both pop off, leading to this tension and looming presence of a split.

But you know, in the end, you're family. You're related, whether you hate to admit it or not. And I can only hope that the community realizes this in a kinder light someday, especially with the quiet farewell of the middle brother. You don't have to live in the same house (#oneunit all that business), but you can certainly respect each other and let the other do what they want to do. If you're not a family person, sorry about this metaphor.

P.S. Please stop trying to be objective about what 'fun' is. I know critics love to try and people will say X and Y is objectively not-fun, but by virtue or vice of human diversity, there will be someone out there who considers it fun. Stating your opinion is fine, but do you really gain anything out of coming up to someone enjoying something and saying 'you're doing it wrong'?

First of all the initial assumption of your post is that Sm4sh is in the same shoes as Brawl, which might be considered believable until you realize the fact that literally every Melee player had a good reason to be pissed off at Brawl, and any attempt for it to buy its way into the competitive scene. Brawl was literally made to be anti-competitive, that part is not even up for debate with how many forced RNG additions, and Sakurai's own statements about thinking Melee as having too much of a skill ceiling.

When Zero won, people weren't cheering against him, they were cheering for him managing to win the set fast when the overall tournament had dragged on, and then afterwards finally cheered for Melee finally being able to start. Apparently this is considered wrong. You say that there is no "objective" fun but watching the top 8 of the Sm4sh 8 tournament was a ****ing pain for everyone involved since the vast majority wanted it to end. Claiming that some people might've enjoyed it doesn't even cut it, the fact of the matter is that there was virtually no hype that wasn't artificial. Pools had hyped up matches, top 8 did not. If Sm4sh had been exciting then the so-called backlash would've been far milder, if not non-existant. I highly doubt someone would be screaming cheers of joy if the top 8 had been like the BB finals or some ****. It's frankly annoying as **** to see people pretend like it was, it's like they're in denial or something and keep making up excuses while actively saying it was enjoyable to watch.

Metaphores are generally pretty stupid, there was not even a need for that. Don't bring up #oneunit anymore, it's dead anyway to the point where I can't consider it anything other than a joke. However I will give you credit on properly explaining one thing; Sm4sh didn't have to work to get where it is today. In fact, you can't even call Melee being "jealous" of the free ride, just annoyed that it delayed incredibly hyped up matches that were going to appear in the top 8 of Melee. Right now Melee and Sm4sh are only similar by name, with some of the players overlapping, however that doesn't create some obligation for them to be more than indifferent to it. When Sm4sh is placed right before the hype top 8 rather than after while simultaneously proving itself to be ridiculously boring; expecting anything other than negative feedback would be weird as ****, and players who are indifferent to it would still be indifferent to it's existant. Only difference is that in that particular situation, they have the right to have a negative reaction to it.

Basically what you're trying to say is that you "sympathize" with their negative reactions but don't consider it justified, which makes me confused over what you can even consider enough of a reason for it, considering it was dreadful this time. When something stupid as **** happens then they have a right to be mad at it, you can't pretend that the behavior that arose from this can be considered pure hate. That's simply interpreting the situation as according to a massive victim problem. I get that Sm4sh is new to the scene, but by the looks of it there's very little **** that's willing to take. Taking responsibility for being incredibly unhype, and the Nintendo sponsorship causing it to jump over to the VGBC stream. This entire thread has basically been telling Melee players to deal with it and not react at all or otherwise they'll point them out as a hate group, which is ****ing unreasonable to say the least.

Don't bring PM into this, Sm4sh is indirectly responsible for the rejection of PM due to it not being exciting enough at the moment to support itself at tournaments and requires Nintendo's backing to do it. Trying to sneak in a "quiet farewell" about it is just disgusting. The only respect at the moment that should be given between the two games at the moment is indifference, the same indifference they would give any other game that's in the schedule of the same tournament as it. Making it out to be anything more just forces on more duties on the Melee community since they're the ones that don't benefit from some sort of high regard towards eachother, because it already stands on it's own 2 legs and isn't prone to dying anytime soon.

Don't know why I'm bothering with all of this but the fact that the Sm4sh community is trying to paint Melee as hateful group for justifiable reactions for a situation that Sm4sh involvement was a major part of is incredibly idiotic, and I don't see how I'm supposed to respect that behavior at all.

 

[Nintenpro]

First of all the initial assumption of your post is that Sm4sh is in the same shoes as Brawl, which might be considered believable until you realize the fact that literally every Melee player had a good reason to be pissed off at Brawl, and any attempt for it to buy its way into the competitive scene.

It's relevant because the brawl community is basically the smash 4 community now. And believing that brawl is "anti-competitive" doesn't allow you to be disrespectful towards brawl players (cf Nairo when he won brawl).

Brawl was literally made to be anti-competitive, that part is not even up for debate with how many forced RNG additions

Only one: the tripping.

 

[jsmoe]

First of all the initial assumption of your post is that Sm4sh is in the same shoes as Brawl, which might be considered believable until you realize the fact that literally every Melee player had a good reason to be pissed off at Brawl, and any attempt for it to buy its way into the competitive scene. Brawl was literally made to be anti-competitive, that part is not even up for debate with how many forced RNG additions, and Sakurai's own statements about thinking Melee as having too much of a skill ceiling.

When Zero won, people weren't cheering against him, they were cheering for him managing to win the set fast when the overall tournament had dragged on, and then afterwards finally cheered for Melee finally being able to start. Apparently this is considered wrong. You say that there is no "objective" fun but watching the top 8 of the Sm4sh 8 tournament was a ****ing pain for everyone involved since the vast majority wanted it to end. Claiming that some people might've enjoyed it doesn't even cut it, the fact of the matter is that there was virtually no hype that wasn't artificial. Pools had hyped up matches, top 8 did not. If Sm4sh had been exciting then the so-called backlash would've been far milder, if not non-existant. I highly doubt someone would be screaming cheers of joy if the top 8 had been like the BB finals or some ****. It's frankly annoying as **** to see people pretend like it was, it's like they're in denial or something and keep making up excuses while actively saying it was enjoyable to watch.

Metaphores are generally pretty stupid, there was not even a need for that. Don't bring up #oneunit anymore, it's dead anyway to the point where I can't consider it anything other than a joke. However I will give you credit on properly explaining one thing; Sm4sh didn't have to work to get where it is today. In fact, you can't even call Melee being "jealous" of the free ride, just annoyed that it delayed incredibly hyped up matches that were going to appear in the top 8 of Melee. Right now Melee and Sm4sh are only similar by name, with some of the players overlapping, however that doesn't create some obligation for them to be more than indifferent to it. When Sm4sh is placed right before the hype top 8 rather than after while simultaneously proving itself to be ridiculously boring; expecting anything other than negative feedback would be weird as ****, and players who are indifferent to it would still be indifferent to it's existant. Only difference is that in that particular situation, they have the right to have a negative reaction to it.

Basically what you're trying to say is that you "sympathize" with their negative reactions but don't consider it justified, which makes me confused over what you can even consider enough of a reason for it, considering it was dreadful this time. When something stupid as **** happens then they have a right to be mad at it, you can't pretend that the behavior that arose from this can be considered pure hate. That's simply interpreting the situation as according to a massive victim problem. I get that Sm4sh is new to the scene, but by the looks of it there's very little **** that's willing to take. Taking responsibility for being incredibly unhype, and the Nintendo sponsorship causing it to jump over to the VGBC stream. This entire thread has basically been telling Melee players to deal with it and not react at all or otherwise they'll point them out as a hate group, which is ****ing unreasonable to say the least.

Don't bring PM into this, Sm4sh is indirectly responsible for the rejection of PM due to it not being exciting enough at the moment to support itself at tournaments and requires Nintendo's backing to do it. Trying to sneak in a "quiet farewell" about it is just disgusting. The only respect at the moment that should be given between the two games at the moment is indifference, the same indifference they would give any other game that's in the schedule of the same tournament as it. Making it out to be anything more just forces on more duties on the Melee community since they're the ones that don't benefit from some sort of high regard towards eachother, because it already stands on it's own 2 legs and isn't prone to dying anytime soon.

Don't know why I'm bothering with all of this but the fact that the Sm4sh community is trying to paint Melee as hateful group for justifiable reactions for a situation that Sm4sh involvement was a major part of is incredibly idiotic, and I don't see how I'm supposed to respect that behavior at all.

" I am going to scream my subjective thoughs on a game i dont like with a bunch of cuse words to get my point across"
This has literally been the basis of all your posts. The fact that you think sm4sh isnt good is all you. I personally thought it was hype the only problem is (and it happens in EVERY game) the coaching between matches and since sm4sh is newer the coaching was longer. I personally thought the top 8 matches themselves were hype. Also sm4sh does not need nintendos help to go anywhere. there are plenty of non-nintendo sponsored tournaments for sm4sh and the number is only increasing.

Please refrain from posting the same thing with a few new curses in it, thank you