Event - Apex 2015 Smash Bros. for Wii U & Melee (Disrespect)

[Quarium]

With how long the scene has been going now, I seriously expected this kind of thing to be left behind by now. I was really dissapointed when hearing this and I really hope things can work as the guy above me has perfectly stated, we need to give meaning to the words "smash community" and not divide ourselves when we all want to grow, it's easier working together.

 

[Mayday]

There is a market for competitive Melee and competitive Smash 4. Why can't both work together to try to create something bigger and better?

We moved and setup an entire venue together as a community. We donated ~$90k to charity to help push Melee to Evo as a community. How can anyone not be convinced that we are strongest as a whole community?

Just respect everyone and what they play

 

[B4ssick L3e]

Every Smash sequel has succeeded as a game in some aspect.
-Melee added the most content and developed a more faced paced game that has become a tournament staple.
-Brawl added an AMAZING story mode and I feel the only bad thing was the inclusion of tripping, if they had made tripping an option, instead of a mandatory game play element Brawl would have probably gotten and retained the attention it deserved.
-Smash 4 removed tripping and attempted to make the game for both the competitive scene and casual players. Smash 4 made the flaw of removing a story/adventure mode which I was looking forward too, but I think it makes up for this with it's game play mechanics, and amusing extra modes (smash tour/run).

Each game has elements that are better than the other games in a way. So by hating on one games community you are only making the Smash community as a whole look bad. I didn't talk about 64 and PM but those are great games as well for their own reasons. With PM especially the Smash players can do when we want a different game , so even if Nintendo won't patch their game then our community can, and will. So instead of hating on one game just stick to your favorite, or play them all, and don't promote hate.

Tl;DR : Don't h8 on smash m8's, the community will be really gr8

 

[SmashChu]

The reason that Melee clashed with Brawl and Sm4sh's scenes is because they were in competition with each other. Brawl nearly killed Melee, and people are worried that Nintendo is just using Melee's scene to get people to play Sm4sh, and that when the tides turn, Melee will end up dead.

To be honest though, I don't know if the common man can do anything about it. Imo if Nintendo released Melee HD for the WiiU console with the GC adapter support, Melee fans would be a lot more cool with Sm4sh. And if the people at VGBC stopped listening to Nintendo and forcing the scene with every commentator trying to say "Hey guys this game is so good I can't believe how good it is just like Melee yup yup this is quality competitive material." it would help.

Sm4sh fans should be objectively judging their game; after all, Nintendo is actually in a position to fix/balance things. Instead of pretending like Sm4sh is perfect, they should be voicing their opinions on what Nintendo should change/get right next time. (Of course I don't know if Nintendo is going to listen.)

I'm responding to this just because of the bold. When you say "kill" what is actually happening is change. It is normal in every community except Smash to move on to the next new game. Street Fighter 3 "killed" Street Fighter 2. Then Street Fighter 4 killed Street Fighter 3. Dota 2 killed Dota. Every Call of Duty game kills the other. The only exception I could think of is Startcraft to Starcraft 2 but that because that game was played in large stadiums, but the top players still moved eventually. It's only Smash Brothers that has this issue. And you hit it on the head. The issue is Melee fans won't let go to Melee. Like I said before, they aren't Smash fans (which is why #oneunit wont work), they are Melee fans. No surprise, a lot of the Smash 4 players I see were Brawl players.

The problem Smash 4 has is Melee fans are actively trying to destroy it like they tried to with Brawl. This is the only logical conclusion I can come up with that explains the hate for the game and why they still complain even after the developers went through so much effort to fix the complaints with Brawl. Smash 4 has more of an uphill battle because the same community is trying to kill it. Heck, look at the complaints. Is Smash 4 a slow game? No. Who would say that. Is it boring. Well maybe if you don't like Smash. But start putting in "compared to Melee" and you'll begin to see the real issue.

Communities move on and try the new game because they want something new and fresh. Melee fans only want more Melee. They see games in the same series as different. For example: there were many mods of Brawl. But the one that took off just so happened to be a carbon copy of Melee. It used the same menu design, have "M" in the name, and even changed some moves and animations back to Melee's version. If that isn't enough evidence, I don't know what is.

 

[anikom15]

Most of these posts are making me dislike the Smash 4 community. I might even start hating it at this rate.

 

[JmacAttack]

I don't disagree. Smash 4 only events can definitely bring in some numbers. Just saying that in a theoretical sense, having an already established tournament drop the largest Smash game is anything but an intelligent idea.

We're on the same page then. The idea of banning Melee is extremely petty and won't solve anything. It'll really only make things worse for the people who have the least to do with it.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Most of these posts are making me dislike the Smash 4 community. I might even start hating it at this rate.

Smash 4 has its own community? I thought it was the SMASH Community, not Smash 4 community.

 

[byebye]

I can give the benefit of the doubt that it was just due people being stressed due to the situation. But since it happened before (Nairo : Brawl) - I don't think so. There's just something deeper in here. If the schedule would have gone ok, I won't be surprised if the crowd chanted "Melee" the first chance they have, whatever the reason is.

You see - most people I believe wants for us to be one unit. People don't want PM to die. People don't want Melee to die. People wants all games to be in harmony. But it seems that some Melee people don't want that.

1st shallow evidence: when Mr. Wizard asked us which game should be at Evo.
There became a thread with a poll for:
a.) Melee only
b.) Smash 4 only
c.) Both games should be at Evo.

guess what? while most voted for C = Both. it is surprising that a whopping 1/3 of the votes wanted Melee only! and no one can answer why. given the option for both to be there, people chose Melee only.

2nd evidence is what happened to Nairo and Zero on Brawl and Smash4's tourneys respectively.

I mean, what did Smash4 people did to the Melee people to get this kind of treatment?

 

[Mayday]

I want to blame the issue on everyone being frustrated that the event went way longer than it was suppose to...if it didn't happen to Nairo last year

 

[Player -0]

@ #HBC | Red Ryu You said that Melee and P:M aren't as easy to get into as Smash 4. Can you explain?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@ #HBC | Red Ryu You said that Melee and P:M aren't as easy to get into as Smash 4. Can you explain?

There are a lot more tech barriers and in Melee's case practicing tech can be difficult when you are not sure you are doing it right, PM added the white flash and how many L-Cancels you did to at least help people get that down better.

The engine isn't as forgiving with ledges harder to grab and being quick on your fingers with some characters when you perform a combo. Though granted I play Peach/Zard/Roy/Lucario and I don't think it is that hard, at least compared to street fighter or other more mainstream games.

Smash 4 is a lot easier to pick up and learn because the game at it's core is about fundamentals, there might be a few tricks to learn but the core of the game is fundamentals with some strings and combos inside.

Melee and PM put a far stronger emphasis on tech skill being a prerequisite.

 

[TheDongWV]

Smash 4 has its own community? I thought it was the SMASH Community, not Smash 4 community.

Right?

It's still all the same community. The whole "my opinion is better than your opinion" crap is stupid. No matter how you look at it, if it has the words "Super Smash Bros" attached to it, its apart of the community. I've honestly heard more people locally call Smash 4 "Brawl 2.0" and just kind of scoff at the fact that people play it.

Both ends have done their wrong doing, but being spiteful to one another won't help at all on the matter.

 

[jmanup85]

Most of these posts are making me dislike the Smash 4 community. I might even start hating it at this rate.

#oneunit.....

 

[Player -0]

I see what you mean but when we talk about Nintendo/Sakurai's vision for a very accessible game like Smash I would think that we're talking about casually. Casually all games are amazing, although I do agree with the backwards ledge grab making life a lot easier for unknowledged/casual (I kind of hate the word casual) players, things like L-Cancelling and tech skill have no merit on them. In which I would argue that every game is as easy to get into.

I could also point out that you don't need a lot of tech skill to do well in Melee or Project M with good positioning like Smash 4.

So I'd have to disagree on entry level/beginners (first time playing Smash) having more trouble with getting into Melee or Project M than in Smash 4.

 

[Pwii]

I'm responding to this just because of the bold. When you say "kill" what is actually happening is change. It is normal in every community except Smash to move on to the next new game. Street Fighter 3 "killed" Street Fighter 2. Then Street Fighter 4 killed Street Fighter 3. Dota 2 killed Dota. Every Call of Duty game kills the other. The only exception I could think of is Startcraft to Starcraft 2 but that because that game was played in large stadiums, but the top players still moved eventually. It's only Smash Brothers that has this issue. And you hit it on the head. The issue is Melee fans won't let go to Melee. Like I said before, they aren't Smash fans (which is why #oneunit wont work), they are Melee fans. No surprise, a lot of the Smash 4 players I see were Brawl players.

The problem Smash 4 has is Melee fans are actively trying to destroy it like they tried to with Brawl. This is the only logical conclusion I can come up with that explains the hate for the game and why they still complain even after the developers went through so much effort to fix the complaints with Brawl. Smash 4 has more of an uphill battle because the same community is trying to kill it. Heck, look at the complaints. Is Smash 4 a slow game? No. Who would say that. Is it boring. Well maybe if you don't like Smash. But start putting in "compared to Melee" and you'll begin to see the real issue.

Communities move on and try the new game because they want something new and fresh. Melee fans only want more Melee. They see games in the same series as different. For example: there were many mods of Brawl. But the one that took off just so happened to be a carbon copy of Melee. It used the same menu design, have "M" in the name, and even changed some moves and animations back to Melee's version. If that isn't enough evidence, I don't know what is.

That probably would've happened if Brawl hadn't been anti-competitive. People wanted the next Smash game, they didn't want one with no combos, intense camping, one viable character, moon physics and no hype. But people went back to Melee, because the quality difference, and even the design difference was too great. And people might be moving to Sm4sh. Who knows, if Nintendo keeps supporting it, the Melee scene might shrink to what 64 is now. But that's what the conflict is about: Sm4sh fans want the newest game, Melee fans want the good one. If you had the chance to pick the best Street Fighter or whatever because its company decided to make it Mario Party, wouldn't you take it? People don't switch games because game designers outdo themselves every time; they switch because it's new. I don't know about you, but I'd rather play good games than new. Brawl being a giant middle finger to the competitive community opened up that possibility, showing that players have the choice of the best game instead of blindly consuming whatever's new.

Also I laugh at 18 minute sets not being objectively boring.

 

[Quarium]

Sm4sh fans want the newest game, Melee fans want the good one.

I understand saying things about Brawl, but this statement here it's pretty bold when talking about a game that came out barely months ago and has a young and growing Metagame. Also, generalizing it's bad. There are fan of both games playing both games.

But opinions are opinions, at the very least you are not going around a Sm4sh event shouting stuff like this. That's where the problem is. Wether one game is better or not falls into a subjective manner for every individual, we all enjoy different things and should be respectful of other's choices. Especially when we want to act proud of our unity.

This really bothers me as well, because I decided to join this forum afters years of lurking simply because of how amazed I was by the community saving Apex, then at the event itself disrespectful things like these happens.

 

[jmanup85]

That probably would've happened if Brawl hadn't been anti-competitive. People wanted the next Smash game, they didn't want one with no combos, intense camping, one viable character, moon physics and no hype. But people went back to Melee, because the quality difference, and even the design difference was too great. And people might be moving to Sm4sh. Who knows, if Nintendo keeps supporting it, the Melee scene might shrink to what 64 is now. But that's what the conflict is about: Sm4sh fans want the newest game, Melee fans want the good one. If you had the chance to pick the best Street Fighter or whatever because its company decided to make it Mario Party, wouldn't you take it? People don't switch games because game designers outdo themselves every time; they switch because it's new. I don't know about you, but I'd rather play good games than new. Brawl being a giant middle finger to the competitive community opened up that possibility, showing that players have the choice of the best game instead of blindly consuming whatever's new.

Also I laugh at 18 minute sets not being objectively boring.

Oh of course that's the issue here. How could I have been so blind? The issue is that while Sm4sh is new and stuff it's just not good. Like, at all. It can't be that "good" is subjective.

 

[Pwii]

First off,

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2upcs0/one_unit_and_the_melee_chant_at_apex/

This is relevant to the thread and everyone should read it. Scar makes valid points and some even relate to PM lower in reddit. Makes me glad Scar is stepping up for everyone on bad behavior and assumptions.



I'll talk about Melee at the end but focus on the Smash 4 and commentator stuff first.

I think a lot of the stuff people wanted, like talking about specific players is harder than Melee. Melee has a stronger history and more players people recognize and want to see play each other. 1k MM in bracket? that was hype. But with Smash 4 it's still in the works and no real rivalries have been made to that regard. People did mention some BS stuff with Diddy and Sonic if I recall, mostly on Sonic's Throws and Diddy's Uair being dumb. Still I kind of see what you mean. There was some sugarcoating in that. But at the same time, it's hard to see what people were expecting, I mean what did people want Sky and co to say?

If the game has issues there is no problem admitting it, but then the last part I can't agree with, "and participate in the game with the collectively agreed fewest flaws" This is where you need to think of this more from a critic, film and art perspective. Not everyone is going to persevere the same mindset or likes and dislikes. What might seem as a good thing to one person might be something another hates like the plague. What one sees as no big deal another sees this as game destroying.

At what point do people accept and dismiss when the quality of each smash game is indeed good even objectively in each one, but to what appeals to who and what people like the most is different. I'm not even talking on a casual level, I mean even on a competitive level.

Shields? kind of flow chart combos? Rolls? Ledges? Defense? I have no issues with this and many others don't either.

Which leads into Melee and PM. Melee is my #2, since I decided to only practice two games over all of them unless I want to out of interest since I like training. But from an aspect of somethings I don't like about Melee.

L-Cancelling, this mechanic sucks and has no purpose other than to alienate players more without adding any really good depth, I know about shields and weird situations where you don't want to. See I've played Street Fighter and still do to a decent level ever since I came into the smash scene, canceling a move for a better version, less lag or stronger hits/other properties, had a cost and real decision making. It added depth while improving gameplay.

This doesn't at all. You will never want to not L-Cancel, if that is the case, it had no purpose in the grand scheme of the game. Tech skill is a part of a game, but it should have a point to exist and I do not think this deserves to exist.

Crouch Canceling cancelling hitstun. I'm ok with reduced knockback and damage, not people being punished for hitting their opponent. I know this requires timing and seeing an attack come, but it just seems to add a universal option to everyone I really don't think should exist outside of a counter if they want something like that. I don't think it is proper to punish being hit like this in such a way where the only real fitting punishment for this is Peach's Dsmash which is a bogus move in melee on it's own right.

Spacies design being repeated in PM with love taps. I don't the the Spacies are OP ban worthy, but damn they are really good in Melee at what they do. Be a jack of all trades and a master of a few. Their main weakness is how combo'd they get when you break their neutral, but others have the same weakness but worse by far yet don't get a recovery with no endlag when they land? The best projectiles in the game? Win ever camp war with lasers alone? Have shine which cover 6 or more other options and does so much on just one move? Yet PM puts them back in and instead of toning them down tries to buff everyone to their level.

It created a speed chase to which the PM Dev team tried to make characters compete with them, and they succeeded but only making it so anyone who couldn't fight a spacie was doomed to them as well. It lead to characters being bloated with good traits without clear and defined weaknesses like Smash 4 and tried to fit into it's design. And when they do tone it down, they still pull bias balancing by leaving them untouched for the most part pretty much putting it back to square one.

From there, I pretty much agreed to stick with Melee since I didn't want to deal with the bias balancing, readding of mechanics I don't like and I've been generally been not a fan of non PC mods.

That's where my problems are in a nutshell, and pretty much why I don't agree with the idea that people seem to think Melee is the best when really the thing that has appealed to me the most at this point is Smash 4. I have issues with both games and other smash titles, but the I still like them and the smash series on a whole is my favorite of all time.

I can't tell you what Sky or D1 or whoever should've said, because I'm not a commentator. I just wanted them to be honest and stop the sugarcoating.

I've noticed that a lot of fans of Sm4sh and Brawl go to this argument of "But who can say what 'competitively good design' even is? It's all preference." Quality is not subjective. I'm not saying we're all going to agree on which is the best, but I'm saying there is a best, and I happen to think it's Melee. And I find it interesting that Sm4sh fans can't find any points that sm4sh has over Melee other than "It's new, and I like it."
EDIT: LOL two people said exactly this while I was typing this. ;^7

There's a reason people play chess at a national level and not pick-up-sticks. And it's not because of their elitist attitude.

As for the design flaws, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with PM. I don't think it's as bad as you say because of all the characters who can wreck spacies, but they're still too over-centralizing. Melee-wise, L-canceling is arbitrary, but it does have its strengths. It makes timing mix-ups harder on the person executing them. You can't just spam aerials with slightly different timings; you have to be precise and know what you're doing. I kind of half-way agree with you though.

Crouch cancelling, however, is amazing. You say "You shouldn't get hit for landing a move," you say while playing Sm4sh. And who could forget hitstun cancelling in Brawl? CC is a great mechanic that adds lots of depth because it requires understanding of what your opponent's about to do. Sure if you just dash attack with fox you're gonna have a bad time, but you can just shine, or uptilt, upSmash, falling uAir, or grab, or run up shield, or run up crouch, or make them come to you. CCing is one of my favorite Melee mechanics. It's not flat-out super armor, but it adds to the rps of the neutral.

I understand saying things about Brawl, but this statement here it's pretty bold when talking about a game that came out barely months ago and has a young and growing Metagame. Also, generalizing it's bad. There are fan of both games playing both games.

But opinions are opinions, at the very least you are not going around a Sm4sh event shouting stuff like this. That's where the problem is. Wether one game is better or not falls into a subjective manner for every individual, we all enjoy different things and should be respectful of other's choices. Especially when we want to act proud of our unity.

This really bothers me as well, because I decided to join this forum afters years of lurking simply because of how amazed I was by the community saving Apex, then at the event itself disrespectful things like these happens.

I actually hope that you're right, and that Sm4sh proves to be even more exciting than Melee. I doubt that'll happen seeing as some flaws that Nintendo doesn't seem to keen on changing are already apparent (talking game mechanics, not Diddy) but it'd be nice.

 

[jmanup85]

Just to sate my curiosity what gameplay mechanics do you mean?

 

[Pwii]

Just to sate my curiosity what gameplay mechanics do you mean?

Low falling speed, aerial lag time, lack of hitstun, fighter speed, lack of movement/control options (dashes take a long time to cancel without shielding or jumping, and using the c-stick for aerials often screws with your momentum thanks to the new macro), all take away from aggressive gameplay, and encourage defensive options. Not that everyone has to super-aggro, but the two options have to be at least balanced, preferably with the more exciting and fast-paced option being more viable. The more control/movement options you have, the deeper the game obviously, and they're nowhere to be seen (excluding Sonic, he looks pretty cool.)

The low hitstun makes it so n00bs can control their character again after getting hit, but it makes combo options limited to the move that can hit them the fastest. The aerial lag time decreases the creativity you can put into approaching because most if not all your aerials are not safe even upon hit, or if they do hit lead to nothing. Back in Melee, Fox could approach with a nair, bair, or even a fair if you did it right and your opponent wasn't expecting it. Sm4sh characters don't have these options, which leads to staleness in gameplay instead of creativity.

Low falling speed is just another way of slowing down the game so bad people can take breathers in between getting hit, but it also makes juggling the new combo game, only less creative and more linear. Not that juggling isn't cool, but it shouldn't replace combo games.

/off topic

 

[Quarium]

I actually hope that you're right, and that Sm4sh proves to be even more exciting than Melee. I doubt that'll happen seeing as some flaws that Nintendo doesn't seem to keen on changing are already apparent (talking game mechanics, not Diddy) but it'd be nice.

I never said that, IT will probably never be as exciting to look at as Melee, Melee is flashier and faster and there's a lot going on. We are human, those things just keeps up in. Having said that? At points I dropped Melee and went to look at Smash 4's stream. You know what? it wasn't as flashy or crazy, But it felt different, it wasn't a ''Crappier version of what goes on in Melee'', It was it's own game with it's own strategies and approaches. Same as people love smash 64 even though it's by far the slowest game between them all. But you know the speed of that game was built around it's Mechanics and the same seems to be the case for smash 4, that's the problem, everything must be compared to Melee and that mentality is what holds us back.

On the thread's subject: We are talking about respect here and not what game is better. I don't like Brawl for example but if people wanting to play Brawl had to wait ages for their top 8 to start and as it is finally happening it makes me wait longer for my Melee or Sm4sh matches. I would not act like a huge baby and complain about it ON THE ROOM THEY ARE PLAYING, because they deserve their time.(And if I did, an autority figure should of put me on my place right at that moment and not try to sound like a human resources last resort on twitter or something)

Someone also mentioned about Melee having more stories and rivalries and the such... well, after 14 years it will obviously have over a game that came out months ago, you gotta give it a chance yo, don't kill the hype and just let it grow.(Also still irrelevant when talking about freaking respecting others.)

 

[jmanup85]

But the aerials can be fixed if you switch the c stick layout to tilts and that gives you the control you need once more (do I wish it didn't change at all? yes. but it is what it is.) I like aerial lag time, you can't mindlessly spam your aerials all day like Brawl and Melee with l cancelling and have to think a bit more methodically about your approach although at higher levels of play you're screwed if you do that anyways. The hitstun isn't actually that bad and lots of characters have strings that can be performed. Could there be just a tad more hitstun and shield stun? Of course, but not too much more tbh. The best reason I can give for liking Sm4sh as much as I do and not Brawl and even Melee is because ALOT more characters feel tourney viable to me. In this game it's about fundamentals and how well you apply them to make your characters work. Perfect Pivots, while not wavedashes, are useful to me and some other strats are pretty cool too I guess. The difference between the characters in tiers feel so small in this game from all that I've played so far, Link isn't absolute trash and Ganondorf (while not his melee self) is pretty awesome to use and is my main. I dunno, I just genuinely like this game alot more and want it to thrive. The thing that bothers me in this thread is, if everyone agrees that it wasn't acceptable to do what was done in the GF of SSB Wii U then why is it that people are coming up with excuses for them? There shouldn't be any excuses, either it was acceptable or not. No johns, no bs.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I see what you mean but when we talk about Nintendo/Sakurai's vision for a very accessible game like Smash I would think that we're talking about casually. Casually all games are amazing, although I do agree with the backwards ledge grab making life a lot easier for unknowledged/casual (I kind of hate the word casual) players, things like L-Cancelling and tech skill have no merit on them. In which I would argue that every game is as easy to get into.

I could also point out that you don't need a lot of tech skill to do well in Melee or Project M with good positioning like Smash 4.

So I'd have to disagree on entry level/beginners (first time playing Smash) having more trouble with getting into Melee or Project M than in Smash 4.

For PM it might be easier but not for Melee, Melee if very unforgiving on someone trying to pick it up.

I agree you don't need it per say but it is far more helpful in many cases over nailing down fundamentals. I think Smash 4 is still easier by virtue of it's engine and how the speed of the game is.

Also I laugh at 18 minute sets not being objectively boring.

I can't tell you what Sky or D1 or whoever should've said, because I'm not a commentator. I just wanted them to be honest and stop the sugarcoating.

I've noticed that a lot of fans of Sm4sh and Brawl go to this argument of "But who can say what 'competitively good design' even is? It's all preference." Quality is not subjective. I'm not saying we're all going to agree on which is the best, but I'm saying there is a best, and I happen to think it's Melee. And I find it interesting that Sm4sh fans can't find any points that sm4sh has over Melee other than "It's new, and I like it."
EDIT: LOL two people said exactly this while I was typing this. ;^7

There's a reason people play chess at a national level and not pick-up-sticks. And it's not because of their elitist attitude.

As for the design flaws, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with PM. I don't think it's as bad as you say because of all the characters who can wreck spacies, but they're still too over-centralizing. Melee-wise, L-canceling is arbitrary, but it does have its strengths. It makes timing mix-ups harder on the person executing them. You can't just spam aerials with slightly different timings; you have to be precise and know what you're doing. I kind of half-way agree with you though.

Crouch cancelling, however, is amazing. You say "You shouldn't get hit for landing a move," you say while playing Sm4sh. And who could forget hitstun cancelling in Brawl? CC is a great mechanic that adds lots of depth because it requires understanding of what your opponent's about to do. Sure if you just dash attack with fox you're gonna have a bad time, but you can just shine, or uptilt, upSmash, falling uAir, or grab, or run up shield, or run up crouch, or make them come to you. CCing is one of my favorite Melee mechanics. It's not flat-out super armor, but it adds to the rps of the neutral.

I actually hope that you're right, and that Sm4sh proves to be even more exciting than Melee. I doubt that'll happen seeing as some flaws that Nintendo doesn't seem to keen on changing are already apparent (talking game mechanics, not Diddy) but it'd be nice.

Low falling speed, aerial lag time, lack of hitstun, fighter speed, lack of movement/control options (dashes take a long time to cancel without shielding or jumping, and using the c-stick for aerials often screws with your momentum thanks to the new macro), all take away from aggressive gameplay, and encourage defensive options. Not that everyone has to super-aggro, but the two options have to be at least balanced, preferably with the more exciting and fast-paced option being more viable. The more control/movement options you have, the deeper the game obviously, and there nowhere to be seen (excluding Sonic, he looks pretty cool.) The low hitstun makes it so n00bs can control their character again after getting hit, but it makes combo options limited to the move that can hit them the fastest. The aerial lag time decreases the creativity you can put into approaching because most if not all your aerials are not safe even upon hit, or if they do hit lead to nothing. Back in Melee, Fox could approach with a nair, bair, or even a fair if you did it right and your opponent wasn't expecting it. Sm4sh characters don't have these options, which leads to staleness in gameplay instead of creativity. Low falling speed is just another way of slowing down the game so bad people can take breathers in between getting hit, but it also makes juggling the new combo game, only less creative and more linear. Not that juggling isn't cool, but it shouldn't replace combo games.

/off topic

I'll cover this all,

For the sugarcoating, it'll get better when the game pushes forward more. Right now there isn't a lot that people can comment and get used to in a 2 month old game at this point. "It's dumb character can do x" when really this kind of came up with Diddy a little but still wasn't that bad in the long run but will get better later.

~

Now about game choice and objectiveness.

What is objective with entertainment or enjoyment? I think Twilight Breaking Dawn Part 2 is one of the funniest movies I have seen in a long time but my friends hate it, in a it's so bad it's good. Am I wrong for thinking this? Is this objectively correct? You seem to imply there is one which I take a very strong issue with.

You're trying to define what is objectively the best and more entertaining to people in a medium and area that is subjective. The only objective thing you could try to measure is larger groups but that doesn't change the fact there is a group that likes watching that and isn't small by any means. There is no such thing in this medium with what people objectively people like and you seem to think that the only answer is that Smash 4 is new while seemingly ignoring other aspects that people might have with Melee and PM like I brought up.

Is a person wrong to suggest this like I would?

Smash 4>=Melee>>>>>>PM>=Brawl>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>64

Am I wrong for having this as my thoughts of what is best to worst in terms of what it appeals to me for? The largest issue is that you are expecting an objective standpoint in a choice that people pick with fighters that is almost entirely subjective. There is a lot to like Smash 4 over Melee for but you seem to think it is a simple objective choice over one that is subjective in the end no matter how you try to argue it. I take a strong issue with this because you think it is a clear cut choice when isn't close to being that simple for each person.

Game quality is one thing, what appeals to people is another. None of the smash games fail at quality or appeal.

~

Now for design in games.

I don't like the design of making a fighter artificially harder just to make it harder if it doesn't add anything to the game itself or lacks actual choice with game-play. This is a turn off for me and I don't like this kind of thing showing up again in PM when I know there is a strong push for wanting it removed but are among a silent group. L-canceling does require, a little, bit of timing to it, but again it doesn't offer choice or make gameplay deeper even worse when a lot of those options people can try to mess with it are ruined if you L-cancel in a slightly tighter window, 4-5 frame window you can L-cancel and cover every single option your opponent can try to do to mess you up on this. If L-cancelling actually offered choice like Wavedashing does, I would be for it. But in the end it doesn't and it can be a legit turn off for many players. PM has made it better for people to practice it, but in the end it still is an arbitrary tech barrier that has no purpose other than to keep "bad people" out from performing.

I think Crouch cancelling removing hitstun is far more intrusive than anything Smash 4 could do by a long shot. You can at least plan against an air dodge or how someone will act in situations through bait and test with PvP. There isn't a whole lot of counter play and offers an option to everyone to really make a lot of options not viable or even make characters awful because it exists. It's far worse with punishing on hit, a lot worse. This might be more personal though, I have no issue with it being used to reduce knockback and damage, but reducing hitstun is where I have a legitimate issue with it. And I played Brawl since release.

Some of your comments on Smash 4's gameplay really isn't true at all. Fallspeed isn't Melee fast but it's faster than Brawl's might have been with control and raw speed. Might seem bad to some, but some people don't want to fall like a rock when they play smash sometimes. Yeah no one can convert ground mobility to air, but maybe that is a balancing factor for people who have good air speed vs characters with fast ground speed dominating a lot of the meta like Melee does. The only reason mention aerial lag is a backlash at some aerials getting higher landing lag as some of them rightfully should. A lot of aerials aren't that laggy depending on the user and what they do, not at all. Falcon's Knee? yes it has a ton of landing lag, that was done so you couldn't nail this on shield all day or Marth can outspace and pretty much make a lot of the cast unable to face him because he can just space them out with a huge sword all day. With all of the other good traits he already had. Movement and control isn't an issue either, the game is crisp smooth in that regard and offers pivoting and better dash options than Brawl had since tripping is gone.

To be fair on this point though, I don't think the smash series has gotten shield to a "good balanced" point. It's a little far on both sides of the spectrum but not terrible in some cases. 64 and Brawl Shields are pretty dumb for opposing reasons.

There are traits with design people can like and dislike, me and PM do not get along in this regard but I don't hate it. But there are valid reasons to consider another game over the others.

Sorry if this is long, but I wanted to make my points across and clear on what might work for one person over another and how design can be more appealing to other people.

 

[Player -0]

Melee might be hard for entry level competitive players but they aren't the audience that Sakurai is trying to cater to. For a 12 year old Melee -> Brawl is almost no different besides controller, new items and characters, and graphics. They don't have an idea that you can waveland onto things or moonwalk which makes the speed of the games much more similar.

I for one think that if Smash 4 had the ability to crouch out of a run it would feel a lot better.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Melee might be hard for entry level competitive players but they aren't the audience that Sakurai is trying to cater to. For a 12 year old Melee -> Brawl is almost no different besides controller, new items and characters, and graphics. They don't have an idea that you can waveland onto things or moonwalk which makes the speed of the games much more similar.

I for one think that if Smash 4 had the ability to crouch out of a run it would feel a lot better.

You can, sort of.

http://smashboards.com/threads/at-run-stop-cancel.364666/#post-17320373

 

[anikom15]

#oneunit.....

I don't want a unified Smash community....

 

[anikom15]

Melee might be hard for entry level competitive players but they aren't the audience that Sakurai is trying to cater to. For a 12 year old Melee -> Brawl is almost no different besides controller, new items and characters, and graphics. They don't have an idea that you can waveland onto things or moonwalk which makes the speed of the games much more similar.

I for one think that if Smash 4 had the ability to crouch out of a run it would feel a lot better.

This isn't strictly true. When Brawl came out I wasn't competitive at all, but I didn't like it because it was slower, it had tripping, and most returning characters felt unnaturally nerfed. Brawl is the game that actually got me interested in competitive fighting games.

 

[SmashChu]

That probably would've happened if Brawl hadn't been anti-competitive. People wanted the next Smash game, they didn't want one with no combos, intense camping, one viable character, moon physics and no hype. But people went back to Melee, because the quality difference, and even the design difference was too great. And people might be moving to Sm4sh. Who knows, if Nintendo keeps supporting it, the Melee scene might shrink to what 64 is now. But that's what the conflict is about: Sm4sh fans want the newest game, Melee fans want the good one. If you had the chance to pick the best Street Fighter or whatever because its company decided to make it Mario Party, wouldn't you take it? People don't switch games because game designers outdo themselves every time; they switch because it's new. I don't know about you, but I'd rather play good games than new. Brawl being a giant middle finger to the competitive community opened up that possibility, showing that players have the choice of the best game instead of blindly consuming whatever's new.

Also I laugh at 18 minute sets not being objectively boring.

You statement is based on an opinion. Melee being the "good" one is subjective. I could list a ton of issues with Melee, even now, as both a game and a spectator sport, but it's neither hear nor there.

The thing is, all of the games are Smash. All Street Fighters are Street Fighter. A lot of the complaints lobbied against Brawl were the same lobbied against Third Strike. SF2 only comes up for retro events. People complained about Marvel 3 when it first came out and said it wasn't as good as Marvel 2. Now, it's the standard. The community moves on because it makes the scene fresh. Melee is stagnant. Pools are irrelevant in that game because you could easily guess top 8. There is no surprise there. Maybe Top 8 is exciting because those players are really good, but outside of that, it's pointless. The same is true for the characters. Smash 4 had a very diverse cast in top 8. Melee had a lot of spacies. That's why other communities move on. it's a time to see new players, see new game mechanics, and just see new stuff. Melee is the same game it was 13 years ago. Smash 4 is less than a few months old. I'll direct you to this post because it explains it better than I could.

By the way. Soylent Green's made it into the water supply, and the Government is tracking your calls as well. Good ****. Paranoia. Nintendo hates you. Yeah guys...

That's why they gave you your most requested characters and spent millions licensing ridiculous amounts of remixed music for you. Good ****.

Hey guys... it's 1999. There's this new game called Third Strike out and it's trash. It's not as fast as ST, and it seems really turtle oriented with all the parry's and such. Plus Fireballs are garbage in this game. There are only three really amazing characters-- Chun, Yun, and Ken, and everybody else is kind of eh. In fact, Chun and Yun win EVERY tournament! I think Yun is a bit too cheap. Let's ban him guys? No really. I mean, EVERY tournament, everybody just uses Yun and it's free! What's the point of even trying to use the ideas we learned from Street Fighter II, He's Yun, and he's like Jesus... so there's no point. This game is so defense oriented I hate it! Somebody can just wait for you to do something and just Parry! It's Stupid as ****! You know what? I have an idea.

Yeah. It's a new day and age. Why don't we just go and take The STREET FIGHTER III engine, and just tweak the mechanics so it's exactly like ST! GENIUS! Let's just do that. **** parry's! I don't want to learn this new ****. Who want's to take the trouble of adapting to a new game. It's so slow and you need to use Normals. WHO NEEDS NORMAL?! I don't like new things! I'm 18! I want to be the same for the next 4 years playing this game!

ALL EVERYBODY DOES IS TURTLE! I WANT TO GO BACK TO ST! WHERE I CAN COMPLAIN HOW I CAN'T GET PAST SRKs BECAUSE THEY TAKE AWAY A QUARTER OF MY LIFE, AND FIREBALLS **** MY POOR HONDA! JESUS CHRIST THIS IS BULL****!


On the real though? This is SRK. when it comes to fighting games. You either Adapt or you move on, simple as that. A lot of those complaints I listed were legitimate complaints for 3s when it first came out(even though it was 10x an improvement over 2I). I played Brawl, Played Melee, Played 3s, Played ST, and now I play IV, and my advice? If you like a game, play it... if you don't, then do yourself a favor and shut the **** up, because no one wants to hear your stupid opinion on how you hate so called "Game that came out over a year ago, and gives my community a bad name, but really it has nothing to do with that and the reason everybody hates my community is people like me come over and act like Nintendo is communist russia, and they hate their people, and they want them all to suffer and die in cold scruffy bear skin hats with a hammer and sickle. We piss and moan about how brawl destroyed our community and get angry at the game and beat it like a redheaded stepchild for some of it's sloppy mechanics, failing to realize Melee at first had many sloppy mechanics when it was introduced back in 2001, until many people looked past those mechanics and enjoyed the game for what it was. We also fail to realize that we are just scapegoating, because most of us ignore the main tenants of a fighting game-- the idea behind adapting and mindgaming, and instead blame our losses on a character whose abilities we don't attempt to circumvent, but instead attempt to complain about, and ban because we can't get past him. "

It pisses me off so much... because I really enjoy those two games and people just ****ing ruined them for me. I expected a lot more from the Smash community and I kept seeing posts like that one. If you don't like the game, just kindly shut the **** up and go about your business. We don't hate you because of it. We hate you because you come here every so often and post childish rants on how it's the game's fault for everything, when really, it's the way you're acting towards it.

To close, the Melee community will always see not Melee as bad. The choice is always going to be "The new game or Melee again." It's like the community's life is in a rut. I don't see how 6 more years of Melee will do anyone any good.

 

[MegaSilver]

I don't want a unified Smash community....

Why not?

 

[Fujiwara]

Congratulations, Melee-Players. You've made it into the international gaming news as the "worst part" of the Smash Bros community. People are starting to suggesting that Melee will be banned from future events as an result. Well, that would be a nasty karma.

 

[byebye]

Congratulations, Melee-Players. You've made it into the international gaming news as the "worst part" of the Smash Bros community. People are starting to suggesting that Melee will be banned from future events as an result. Well, that would be a nasty karma.

where was that? I read a Kotaku one. hahahaha. funny.
but seriously banning? that's too much man. and who are those people?

 

[MegaSilver]

Congratulations, Melee-Players. You've made it into the international gaming news as the "worst part" of the Smash Bros community. People are starting to suggesting that Melee will be banned from future events as an result. Well, that would be a nasty karma.

 

[Roneblaster]

Regarding Melee/Smash 4 "drama":

What is said in Twitch chat is not an issue. Twitch is a place to be anonymous and you can't control other people, so you're wasting your time complaining or thinking of ways to change Twitch chat.

For in-person issues:

Reminder: taunting, trash-talk, booing, etc. are all apart of professional sports. Reminder #2: Basketball was invented in 1891. So what can we safely assume based on this information? This kind of behavior isn't going anywhere.

So what are our options to make things better?

Well the most common remedy that is used by professional athletes and other FGCers users is:

Headphones.

The other option you have readily available is to grow up. If you're a teenager you have spent enough time in the "real world" to realize that when you're in a public place, unless someone is breaking the law, no-one is obligated make your life better. You better accept your surroundings or leave.

There are exceptions:

For example, I think 99% of us can agree that if and adult is talking **** to a young child, that is a problem that is addressed on the spot, not on Facebook or Smashboards.

The other exception I can think of is that if someone is saying something particularly personal and venom-filled. Then what do you do? Well that's an issue people have been dealing with since the first insult was slung, and spoiler: people are still doing it.

The moral of the story:

I'm not saying don't try to make changes or make a difference, If you think you can, prove me wrong but... what I am saying is remember you're wasting your time and energy. There are much more productive things you could be doing. Not only that, but also keep in mind you are irritating people like myself and turning them away from your cause.

 

[MeteorD]

1st shallow evidence: when Mr. Wizard asked us which game should be at Evo.
There became a thread with a poll for:
a.) Melee only
b.) Smash 4 only
c.) Both games should be at Evo.

guess what? while most voted for C = Both. it is surprising that a whopping 1/3 of the votes wanted Melee only! and no one can answer why. given the option for both to be there, people chose Melee only.

2nd evidence is what happened to Nairo and Zero on Brawl and Smash4's tourneys respectively.

I mean, what did Smash4 people did to the Melee people to get this kind of treatment?

What does that have to do with any sort of treatment? It's clear that the 1/3rd who voted for Melee only didn't see Sm4sh fit for a competitive scene with the way the meta was at the moment. If they don't think that the high-tier matches are fit for EVO then that has nothing to do with any sort of treatment towards the Sm4sh community, that has to do with their opinion on whether or not it's fit for EVO and nothing else. If the top 8 at EVO plays out then endorsing Melee only wouldn't even be a weird statement to make. Stop trying to take everything as an offense to the community rather than the competitive meta.

People constantly say that the meta is underdeveloped which is why simple characters that beat certain matchups are used alot, like Diddy, but that's even more of a sign that people should consider when saying it's not fit for a competitive scene yet. If it does develop into an interesting spectator's sport then that's great, but at the moment it's even hard for tournament organizers to decide on what the rules should be. Defensive gameplay is heavily favoured which makes it frankly not enjoyable to watch, it's a miracle Zero somehow manages to play Diddy more offensively. Right now rules are trying to be established to change this, but it hasn't yet, and at the time of that poll even less had been decided. The poll argument is absolutely stupid for this reason, and just another example of having a victim complex to the big bad Melee scene or whatever.

 

[anikom15]

Why not?

Because a lot of Melee fans don't care about competitive Smash 4 and vice versa, and Smash 4 should be able to stand on its own.

 

[Froggy]

What does that have to do with any sort of treatment? It's clear that the 1/3rd who voted for Melee only didn't see Sm4sh fit for a competitive scene with the way the meta was at the moment. If they don't think that the high-tier matches are fit for EVO then that has nothing to do with any sort of treatment towards the Sm4sh community, that has to do with their opinion on whether or not it's fit for EVO and nothing else. If the top 8 at EVO plays out then endorsing Melee only wouldn't even be a weird statement to make. Stop trying to take everything as an offense to the community rather than the competitive meta.

People constantly say that the meta is underdeveloped which is why simple characters that beat certain matchups are used alot, like Diddy, but that's even more of a sign that people should consider when saying it's not fit for a competitive scene yet. If it does develop into an interesting spectator's sport then that's great, but at the moment it's even hard for tournament organizers to decide on what the rules should be. Defensive gameplay is heavily favoured which makes it frankly not enjoyable to watch, it's a miracle Zero somehow manages to play Diddy more offensively. Right now rules are trying to be established to change this, but it hasn't yet, and at the time of that poll even less had been decided. The poll argument is absolutely stupid for this reason, and just another example of having a victim complex to the big bad Melee scene or whatever.

You give the melee community way too much credit if you really think them voting for melee only was done out of concern about the overall spectator experience at Evo.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Because a lot of Melee fans don't care about competitive Smash 4 and vice versa, and Smash 4 should be able to stand on its own.

If Smash 4 came first, built up a heavy fanbase, and then Melee came out, would we still be insisting on Melee finding it's way alone? Just because Melee built up from it's roots doesn't mean every Smash needs to start from the ground up.

 

[MeteorD]

You give the melee community way too much credit if you really think them voting for melee only was done out of concern about the overall spectator experience at Evo.

Assuming that it's just out of hatred is even worse. If it was Brawl then yeah you could call it that considering Brawl was made specifically to be anti-competitive, whereas Sm4sh at least isn't doing it to that degree and has drastically less RNG elements to it than Brawl.

 

[byebye]

What does that have to do with any sort of treatment? It's clear that the 1/3rd who voted for Melee only didn't see Sm4sh fit for a competitive scene with the way the meta was at the moment. If they don't think that the high-tier matches are fit for EVO then that has nothing to do with any sort of treatment towards the Sm4sh community, that has to do with their opinion on whether or not it's fit for EVO and nothing else. If the top 8 at EVO plays out then endorsing Melee only wouldn't even be a weird statement to make. Stop trying to take everything as an offense to the community rather than the competitive meta.

Wow so you mean those 1/3 are like jedi masters that know those stuffs about a totally different and new game? So given the choice, they'll opt to select melee only instead of having more games? They'll select melee only instead of melee + tekken 7 or melee + pokken? Just because they feel, say, the current meta is not fit for the competitive scene? Wow. Just wow.

Just because of that, people are willing to put any other game down. Even if it really didn't directly affect them. Do those people realize that they are taking away opportunities for other people to watch the game, to play the game in a competitive stage, to win money, and to be something big. Just because of some opinion.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Assuming that it's just out of hatred is even worse. If it was Brawl then yeah you could call it that considering Brawl was made specifically to be anti-competitive, whereas Sm4sh at least isn't doing it to that degree and has drastically less RNG elements to it than Brawl.

Even less than Melee given how much they nerfed Peach's Turnip pulls in percent chance and how her Fsmash comes out in a fixed order, and Olimars Pikmin. Which I happily welcome with Peach given how I love how I can control which one she uses now.

Tripping being removed is a godsent either way.