Event - Apex 2015 Smash Bros. for Wii U & Melee (Disrespect)

[Kuraudo]

We have a serious problem on our hands. I know it, you know it, and it doesn't matter what side of the coin you're on, the whole concept of #OneUnit is a complete and total lie. Rewind the clocks a little bit to January 30th 2015. APEX 2015 was just about to begin and we almost had our event shut down. As a community, Twitch.TV, Red Bull, all the fans, we rallied together to revive what could have been a fallen tournament series. APEX is a grand celebration of everything Smash Bros. and how far we have come. We're sponsored by Nintendo. We're crowning new champions and harboring amazing upsets.

That takes us to Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, live on stream, 80k viewers strong going through finals. And what does the community do? Slander the game and make calls for Melee, WHILE THE EVENT IS GOING ON. This isn't just Twitch people. The live crowd turned into a Twitch chat full of live stream monsters. Whatever your preference is, the Melee community is showing just how big they are by putting themselves out there like this.

https://twitter.com/progducto/status/562097970955714560

This HAS to stop. The exact same thing happened in Brawl's time when the game first came out. It needs to be addressed and it needs to be taken care of. SOMEHOW. I'm not a big name in the community, but we gotta step up together. I'm losing hope, but I'm hoping for a miracle that can prove me wrong that we can't be One Unit.

Enjoy your Melee, ladies and gentlemen. It's gonna be hype. But at what cost? By trying to undermine and make your fellow game a joke.

 

[TheDongWV]

I actually enjoyed watching some of the matches for Wii U. The fact that some of the matches went on to the time running out just shows you how intricate some of the matches can be.

This is just the same as the "When's Marvel?" stuff that happens at EVO. Just because Smash 4 isn't super flashy and REALLY fast doesn't not make it a great competitive game. It may not be Melee, but at least it's not Brawl.

 

[Ulevo]

I think part of the problem was that the game is unfortunately turning in to a Diddy Kong gong show. The crowd chanting hoo-ha, DaBuzz swapping out his dedicated character to deal with the inevitable, M2K/Zero having to turn their tournament set in to an entertainment show to make the Diddy vs Diddy palatable. These are all bad signs in my mind. The character is obviously ridiculous and it's making a lot of people roll their eyes, and I can sort of sympathize with that. Hopefully Diddy receives some kind of tuning given that Nintendo was watching this event.

 

[ninrok]

Yeah, tonight really annoyed me as someone new to the scene, and I thoroughly enjoyed almost all the sets from top 8... This behavior isn't new, but no less ridiculous.

 

[dahuterschuter]

Probably because the ridiculous duration of the Smash4U matches sent Melee into a day 4 several hours behind schedule. People are a little miffed about having to play their sets at 2AM because of it.

 

[Clemente]

You shouldn't give a crap what people on Twitch have to say, they're anonymous and everyone is trolling and trying to be funny.

As for the crowd, shouting Melee right after he won Sm4sh was inappropriate, but I guess people just don't like him that much. and I loved them making the monkey noises.

Probably because the ridiculous duration of the Smash4U matches sent Melee into a day 4 several hours behind schedule. People are a little miffed about having to play their sets at 2AM because of it.

Also this. It's better that people got a little too silly than things getting dramatic.

 

[Trifroze]

This will affect Smash 4 and its future in a very negative way if it continues. New players come look at the game and all they see are the unreasonable and toxic comments from the majority (judging by today) of Melee viewers, most of who have probably never touched any game competitively because they think a fast pace and technical depth are absolute values and there's nothing else to it (such as character and style variety, balance, yomi and most importantly accessibility which contributes to growing the community), and who keep getting fed by select few Melee elitists and comments like "Woah is this Melee?" when something spectator-friendly happens in Smash 4. Stop comparing the two games or putting Melee on a pedestal, no matter how innocent it is.

I think it's pretty clear there's no way to avoid this conflict because we already went through 6 years of it. Hence, the people putting Smash 4 and Melee events together will ultimately be the ones responsible for scaring away the potential new players because they're putting our events in the middle of monkeys who keep throwing feces at them. From this viewpoint, streaming Smash 4 in the middle of Melee at VGBC was a huge mistake on someone's part, although I doubt the meleelords would've stayed out even if Spooky kept streaming Smash 4, as long as Melee wasn't spoonfed to them at the same time to keep them out.

I'm glad there are streamers like Nakat, FOW, Nairo, Zero, ClashTournaments, RushHourSmash and countless local scenes who show the game for what it really is and hence give it the reputation it deserves. However if every big Smash 4 event will be connected to Melee, today's **** will continue to happen in the future. If the Melee viewers can't stand this game and don't have anything better to do than complain and chant for Melee while watching it and literally can't just keep quiet and go away during Smash 4, I'd rather have Smash 4 events be completely separated from Melee whenever possible, and events like Apex and EVO having dedicated streams for Smash 4 with good mods unlike VGBC today. If Nintendo is going to support the scene it's at least certain to support the newer game out of the two.

 

[Clemente]

This will affect Smash 4 and its future in a very negative way if it continues. New players come look at the game and all they see are the unreasonable and toxic comments from the majority (judging by today) of Melee viewers, most of who have probably never touched any game competitively because they think a fast pace and technical depth are absolute values and there's nothing else to it (such as character and style variety, balance, yomi and most importantly accessibility which contributes to growing the community), and who keep getting fed by select few Melee elitists and comments like "Woah is this Melee?" when something spectator-friendly happens in Smash 4. Stop comparing the two games or putting Melee on a pedestal, no matter how innocent it is.

I think it's pretty clear there's no way to avoid this conflict because we already went through 6 years of it. Hence, the people putting Smash 4 and Melee events together will ultimately be the ones responsible for scaring away the potential new players because they're putting our events in the middle of monkeys who keep throwing feces at them. From this viewpoint, streaming Smash 4 in the middle of Melee at VGBC was a huge mistake on someone's part, although I doubt the meleelords would've stayed out even if Spooky kept streaming Smash 4, as long as Melee wasn't spoonfed to them at the same time to keep them out.

I'm glad there are streamers like Nakat, FOW, Nairo, Zero, ClashTournaments, RushHourSmash and countless local scenes who show the game for what it really is and hence give it the reputation it deserves. However if every big Smash 4 event will be connected to Melee, today's **** will continue to happen in the future. If the Melee viewers can't stand this game and don't have anything better to do than complain and chant for Melee while watching it and literally can't just keep quiet and go away during Smash 4, I'd rather have Smash 4 events be completely separated from Melee whenever possible, and events like Apex and EVO having dedicated streams for Smash 4 with good mods unlike VGBC today. If Nintendo is going to support the scene it's at least certain to support the newer game out of the two.

Most Smash fans are fans of every entry. No matter how much you try to divide people up, you're going to get a lot of comparison discussion between the games. It's inevitable. People always compare games in a series, there's no need to be so babyish about it.

I frankly felt that Sm4sh was not very enjoyable to watch today, besides maybe a couple games between M2k and Zero. I'm purely a Sm4sh player now, and I haven't touched Melee for years, but I was glad to see people poking fun at it, such as making monkey noises at the repetitive Diddy play. The matches were too long and too campy and that's before you take into account whatever event organizing issues were going on.

 

[Oobz]

Only people having to play at 2 AM are the elite in the finals. And if they are grumpy because they haven't had a chance to take a nap they can drink some red bull and push on.

 

[Jiggernauts]

First, let me preface this by saying I'm a complete noob that has only owned the Wii & WiiU versions of Smash, I play only single player or multi player online, and have logged less than 50 hours between both combined with maybe 35 of those hours on Sm4sh. In addition, I don't often watch live gaming events but have watched my share of live let's plays, speed runs and other Twitch gaming broadcasts. However I do watch and participate in countless live sporting events, TV shows, community events and other various simultaneous broadcasts where I actively communicate in message boards, forums, Twitter etc. So with that said, I am familiar with online communities' and specifically online communities in regards to live broadcasts.
Now onto the point, today I decided to watch the streams of Apex while communicating on the boards about matches and other relevant topics. The first thing I realized was that the smash community is one of the most difficult communities for a newcomer to join in to. The broadcasters and people chatting online have their own language almost, with nothing but catch phrases, past references, memes, insider jokes, lingo and oddities that make following it almost impossible. I was doing nothing but using my phone to search what terms meant and every answer was some obscure moment that people latched onto and forced into the Smash vocabulary.
Now in addition to that and more on the topic of this post, the community treats anybody who plays or likes sm4sh like they are wrong and are an idiot, basically casting them out. They expect everyone regardless of age or experience to go out, find an old console and purchase and play melee exclusively or don't even bother playing at all because you are obviously doing it wrong. How is anybody suppose to get into the community if this is how people are treated for joining in with the newest game as their entry point?
Then.. then things really got bad when the stream switched from melee to sm4sh for the singles final 8. I've never seen a bunch of people whine, *****, moan, cry and complain as much as the Smash community when this happened. No amount of logic mattered because melee is the only game that matters and if that's not taking priority, then people are obviously stupid because melee rules all.
Nobody for once thought that MAYBE with Nintendo being a sponsor that they would want their marketing money to go towards having their newest game shown to the 80k people at home watching. After all, they are running a business and you don't throw money at something without the hopes of some return on investment. That is why it was smart that they sandwich sm4sh between melee so that people would watch, almost the same way TV networks sandwich a lesser show between 2 great shows. Of course when that was pointed out then the community immediately responds with that's why they are pissed Nintendo is a sponsor and they wish they weren't because Nintendo is ruining it by having sm4sh hold up melee.
I can honestly say that at that moment I gave up on the community, I realized that it is impossible for this community to grow because despite the fact they say they want it to, they wont let it. I felt as though it was nothing but 13-16 year old boys arguing and being elitists for no reason at all. They are actually alienating everyone who want's to join.
It's sad to see because I'd be willing to bet that next year Nintendo will not be a sponsor again and they may go back to distancing themselves from the community because of this, and that will only hurt the community more.
If the Smash community continues this attitude towards melee and everything not melee, then the group will get smaller and smaller till it eventually fizzles out.
Normally the saying is "vocal minority" vs "Silent majority", but I honestly feel like it is the vocal majority of people who are holding back the silent minority from pushing this community further. You better hope that silent minority doesn't throw up their hands and leave because of the antics of the Smash community, because you may just lose all your tournament organizers and Sponsorship shoppers quicker than you think, then things will really fall apart and you will only have yourselves to blame.

 

[RanserSSF4]

i never heard about this till recently and i was watching the top 8 for smash 4.

i honestly agree! i am so disappointed within the community right now

it's fine if you don't like smash 4, but there's no point of being so immature and being disrespectful just because your game isn't on stage.

i will agree that the smash 4 top 8 took a long time and some matches were boring, but it would've easily been more faster and entertaining if they fixed the two following problems:

- not making every match Bo5
- seperated both games on different streams. they did this the past 2 days with no problems and it ran fine, so why didn't they do that here?

i did like the top 8, but the TOs could've scheduled it better and the crowd was being so disrespectful! i am disappointed!

 

[Mericus]

Twitch chats in almost any context have been nothing but a writhing mass of angry frustrated people.
I think I've only seen it calm during a few Speed Run streams or when it's view count is low.

Pleasing them isn't easy ( or possible at times ) and if Twitch had been around since before Melee then they would still find a way to whine / moan. It's just how people are :I

 

[Pwii]

People are telling VGBC what they want. And your response is to tell them to shut up? I know it all looks fine and dandy now, but if Smash dies, it won't be because people have opinions. It'll be because moderators and people who think they know what's best for the scene exert too much control over what people say while trying to push Sm4sh to become just as big as Melee.

The people know what the people want, and you can't shame, mod, or scare away their opinions.

If Sm4sh can really stand alongside Melee as an equal, give it its own national and see how many people come.

 

[infomon]

I think part of the problem was that the game is unfortunately turning in to a Diddy Kong gong show.

It really isn't. Out of the top 16 of singles, only 4 used Diddy, and the only one in top 4 was ZeRo. Dabuz switched to not Diddy to counter Diddy and that seemed to work fine.

Diddy dominance had nothing to do with the crowd chanting for Melee. They simply wanted Melee, and didn't care about Smash WiiU. That's fine except they were disrespectful in expressing that. It's like these people will never stop voicing their opinion that they don't like Smash4, in as loud ways as they can find. It's ridiculous.

Several random people would try to strike up a casual conversation with me throughout Apex by stating an opinion along the lines of "lol Melee's the best, there's no other smash". Sick of it.

 

[Pwii]

Several random people would try to strike up a casual conversation with me throughout Apex by stating an opinion along the lines of "lol Melee's the best, there's no other smash". Sick of it.

Well I guess Project M fans are just more tolerant of opinions than you because I don't see them whining about Melee fans.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It really isn't. Out of the top 16 of singles, only 4 used Diddy, and the only one in top 4 was ZeRo. Dabuz switched to not Diddy to counter Diddy and that seemed to work fine.

Diddy dominance had nothing to do with the crowd chanting for Melee. They simply wanted Melee, and didn't care about Smash WiiU. That's fine except they were disrespectful in expressing that. It's like these people will never stop voicing their opinion that they don't like Smash4, in as loud ways as they can find. It's ridiculous.

Several random people would try to strike up a casual conversation with me throughout Apex by stating an opinion along the lines of "lol Melee's the best, there's no other smash". Sick of it.

Yeah there wasn't a saturation of Diddy at all. One Diddy mirror is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, really, it isn't

The main problem was the TO and how it was Bo5 even in stuff like Quarters....

 

[Tiberious]

Gee, I saw this crap coming a mile away. You know, what really needs to start happening is whenever the Meleeturds pull this disrespectful ****, and that's what it is, ****, just start dropping Melee from future tournaments. Once a few majors have Melee canceled, I'm sure the community will start cleaning itself up or risk becoming an ostracized subset.

It takes some balls for the various TOs to take this step, but this kind of trash is what Nintendo is going to remember most, and just proves Sakurai right that the 'hardcore' are to be dismissed entirely.

 

[infomon]

Well I guess Project M fans are just more tolerant of opinions than you because I don't see them whining about Melee fans.

I'm not sick of Melee fans; I am a Melee fan. I'm sick of people whining about games they don't like, which for whatever reason comes predominantly from the Melee crowd (I don't know that I've ever particularly heard PM dudes whining about anything which just says something about their awesome community I think).

Edit: On second reading, maybe you're right that PM fans are more tolerant of opinions than me. :D

 

[adom4]

Gee, I saw this crap coming a mile away. You know, what really needs to start happening is whenever the Meleeturds pull this disrespectful ****, and that's what it is, ****, just start dropping Melee from future tournaments. Once a few majors have Melee canceled, I'm sure the community will start cleaning itself up or risk becoming an ostracized subset.

It takes some balls for the various TOs to take this step, but this kind of trash is what Nintendo is going to remember most, and just proves Sakurai right that the 'hardcore' are to be dismissed entirely.

Your not acting any better yourself.
I prefer smash 4 over Melee personally but show some respect.

 

[Pwii]

I'm not sick of Melee fans; I am a Melee fan. I'm sick of people whining about games they don't like, which for whatever reason comes predominantly from the Melee crowd (I don't know that I've ever particularly heard PM dudes whining about anything which just says something about their awesome community I think).

Ok, that's fair. But Melee 'whiners' don't hate 64 or PM. Do you know why? Because those games are not pretending to be them. Brawl and Sm4sh both tried to be "just like Melee look at our hype, look at how competitive we are!" when 64 and PM seek to stand on their own feet. Even with PM literally trying to become Melee it doesn't feel the need to shut Melee whiners up. 64 doesn't even care when Melee whiners say their game is the best. Because they are games that can stand on their own without dressing up in older sister Melee's lipstick and D-cup bras.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Gee, I saw this crap coming a mile away. You know, what really needs to start happening is whenever the Meleeturds pull this disrespectful ****, and that's what it is, ****, just start dropping Melee from future tournaments. Once a few majors have Melee canceled, I'm sure the community will start cleaning itself up or risk becoming an ostracized subset.

It takes some balls for the various TOs to take this step, but this kind of trash is what Nintendo is going to remember most, and just proves Sakurai right that the 'hardcore' are to be dismissed entirely.

that would be a bad thing to do! it will make the melee fanbase hate smash 4 even more and we don't want that!

 

[Pwii]

that would be a bad thing to do! it will make the melee fanbase hate smash 4 even more and we don't want that!

I don't think you guys understand. Melee survived without Nintendo, in spite of Nintendo, for years. I fully support the split so Melee isn't hampered by Sm4sh, and we can see exactly what this new game is made up of.

 

[JmacAttack]

This reddit comment says everything.

 

[Tiberious]

that would be a bad thing to do! it will make the melee fanbase hate smash 4 even more and we don't want that!

So what? Let them hate. I really don't care what they think, as long as they have the common decency to not act like a bunch of uncultured swine whenever "their game" isn't on.

And the worst part is TOs have been letting them get away with this for years. It's time to put the proverbial foot down, and if it takes dumping the game that has the most toxic playerbase, then fine. Let them go elsewhere and do their own thing.

 

[JmacAttack]

Ok, that's fair. But Melee 'whiners' don't hate 64 or PM. Do you know why? Because those games are not pretending to be them. Brawl and Sm4sh both tried to be "just like Melee look at our hype, look at how competitive we are!" when 64 and PM seek to stand on their own feet. Even with PM literally trying to become Melee it doesn't feel the need to shut Melee whiners up. 64 doesn't even care when Melee whiners say their game is the best. Because they are games that can stand on their own without dressing up in older sister Melee's lipstick and D-cup bras.

You have that backwards. People forget this because of the great revival going on right now, but Melee's scene almost ****ing died! Brawl was the dominant game for years! Brawl DID stand on its own two legs, and Melee was the game that had to fight for any scraps it could get. You know that big revival happening right now in the West? That hasn't happened in Japan! Melee is as widely played over there as Brawl is here!

The truth of the matter isn't that Smash 4 and Brawl are trying to act like Melee, it's that Melee fans know Smash 4 can surpass them if given a chance, just as Brawl did, and given the views of the series creator being against them, that scares them. They feel threatened by Smash 4, just as they were with Brawl, because they love Melee, and they don't want Melee to go away, despite the fact that Sakurai seems to wish it would (which sucks, by the way). I don't want to see Melee go away either. If they gave Smash 4 a Melee Mode, I'd be happy. Genuinely happy. Melee HD? If that had been the big announcement, I'd have been hype.

Given the snobby attitude that Melee fans continue to have, though, I'm not sure they've earned Melee HD anymore. If they want to drive away anyone that's not like them because they feel like Smash 4 has to prove themselves worthy just to stand side-by-side, they can keep their grassroots, their CRTs, and their standard definition. Don't kid yourself about 64, either; the only reason Melee fans don't rip on 64 is because it's old, and nostalgic, and they respect Isaiah too much, not because it "stands on its own". If it stood on its own, it would have built a scene up before Melee was even conceived, not years after. Truth is, if it weren't for Melee, it wouldn't be at Apex, and you damn well know it.

Drop the attitude. We all agree that Melee deserves to be acknowledged, and Smash 4 being here too doesn't mean we aren't. Smash 4 is a great gateway for newcomers to get into the scene, and it stands a good chance of pulling people into Melee too as long as you maintain the goodwill and accept that there will be multiple major Smash scenes going on at the same time, under the same banner. Don't make the newcomers feel bad just because they don't play Melee, or Melee really will die out.

 

[revengeska]

Honestly, " but ____ is not Melee!" should be a meme. This Melee elitist attitude is a joke and should be treated as such. Sm4sh isn't even being given a chance because #butitsnotmelee.

Luckily my local community largely keeps the elitist attitude in check. I'm still disappointed that many are so focused on Melee that I don't always have a steady stream of opponents, but at least it's not in your face "Melee is better than ____". However, the community needs a culture shift, and it probably won't happen without dropping support for Melee from at least the large events.

 

[wannabe33]

Here are four claims:

1. Melee is a better competitive game than Smash 4.
2. High-level Melee is more fun to watch than high-level Smash 4.
3. The Melee competitive community contains better rivalries and better storylines than the Smash 4 competitive community.
4. Dabuz's playstyle and Diddy Kong are snooze-inducing.

Most of the APEX audience would agree with all of these claims. From their perspective, a superior and more enjoyable competitive experience with deeper levels of mastery and tense rivalries was being pushed deep into the night in order to showcase long, tedious Smash 4 matches.

You don't have to share that perspective, but from their vantage point the sarcastic cheering was perfectly understandable. They eagerly wanted to see a $1000 money match, the return of PPMD, Armada's miraculous Fox, and Leffen's ascent to godhood, yet their time-tested, tournament-proven object of affection was getting the shaft for HOO HAH and Dabuz camp. Wouldn't you be frustrated? I would. I was.

No question the audience was a bit rude, but Prog and others are making mountains out of molehills. A bunch of twenty-somethings got irritable about scheduling issues, wanted to see Melee, and sarcastically applauded when Smash 4 ended. It's not the end of the world and it's not evidence of a toxic community. If anything, it reinforces the importance of keeping schedules and should call into question whether Bo5 Smash 4 sets should be reserved for later in the bracket.

No question #oneunit is a sham, though. Always has been.

 

[Tiberious]

Honestly, " but ____ is not Melee!" should be a meme. This Melee elitist attitude is a joke and should be treated as such. Sm4sh isn't even being given a chance because #butitsnotmelee.

Luckily my local community largely keeps the elitist attitude in check. I'm still disappointed that many are so focused on Melee that I don't always have a steady stream of opponents, but at least it's not in your face "Melee is better than ____". However, the community needs a culture shift, and it probably won't happen without dropping support for Melee from at least the large events.

So much this. Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one, and some of 'em stink. But just like it's good form not to intentionally fart in a crowded space, it's good form to not disrespect those playing a game you may not personally like.

Oh, and let's get something straight here. You didn't hear of this crap happening at Evo, but with how things have been progressing, I actually kinda hope it does, just to give the Melee 'community' a taste of their own medicine.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Here are four claims:

1. Melee is a better competitive game than Smash 4.
2. High-level Melee is more fun to watch than high-level Smash 4.
3. The Melee competitive community contains better rivalries and better storylines than the Smash 4 competitive community.
4. Dabuz's playstyle and Diddy Kong are snooze-inducing.

Most of the APEX audience would agree with all of these claims. From their perspective, a superior and more enjoyable competitive experience with deeper levels of mastery and tense rivalries was being pushed deep into the night in order to showcase long, tedious Smash 4 matches.

You don't have to share that perspective, but from their vantage point the sarcastic cheering was perfectly understandable. They eagerly wanted to see a $1000 money match, the return of PPMD, Armada's miraculous Fox, and Leffen's ascent to godhood, yet their time-tested, tournament-proven object of affection was getting the shaft for HOO HAH and Dabuz camp. Wouldn't you be frustrated? I would. I was.

No question the audience was a bit rude, but Prog and others are making mountains out of molehills. A bunch of twenty-somethings got irritable about scheduling issues, wanted to see Melee, and sarcastically applauded when Smash 4 ended. It's not the end of the world and it's not evidence of a toxic community. If anything, it reinforces the importance of keeping schedules and should call into question whether Bo5 Smash 4 sets should be reserved for later in the bracket.

No question #oneunit is a sham, though. Always has been.

IMO, despite i enjoyed the top 8 (outside of dabuzs campy play), the schedule and Bo5 rules did make smash 4 last too long. i do agree that melee is the better game, but it's all a matter of preference.

 

[Pwii]

You have that backwards. People forget this because of the great revival going on right now, but Melee's scene almost ****ing died! Brawl was the dominant game for years! Brawl DID stand on its own two legs, and Melee was the game that had to fight for any scraps it could get. You know that big revival happening right now in the West? That hasn't happened in Japan! Melee is as widely played over there as Brawl is here!

The truth of the matter isn't that Smash 4 and Brawl are trying to act like Melee, it's that Melee fans know Smash 4 can surpass them if given a chance, just as Brawl did, and given the views of the series creator being against them, that scares them. They feel threatened by Smash 4, just as they were with Brawl, because they love Melee, and they don't want Melee to go away, despite the fact that Sakurai seems to wish it would (which sucks, by the way). I don't want to see Melee go away either. If they gave Smash 4 a Melee Mode, I'd be happy. Genuinely happy. Melee HD? If that had been the big announcement, I'd have been hype.

Given the snobby attitude that Melee fans continue to have, though, I'm not sure they've earned Melee HD anymore. If they want to drive away anyone that's not like them because they feel like Smash 4 has to prove themselves worthy just to stand side-by-side, they can keep their grassroots, their CRTs, and their standard definition. Don't kid yourself about 64, either; the only reason Melee fans don't rip on 64 is because it's old, and nostalgic, and they respect Isaiah too much, not because it "stands on its own". If it stood on its own, it would have built a scene up before Melee was even conceived, not years after. Truth is, if it weren't for Melee, it wouldn't be at Apex, and you damn well know it.

Drop the attitude. We all agree that Melee deserves to be acknowledged, and Smash 4 being here too doesn't mean we aren't. Smash 4 is a great gateway for newcomers to get into the scene, and it stands a good chance of pulling people into Melee too as long as you maintain the goodwill and accept that there will be multiple major Smash scenes going on at the same time, under the same banner. Don't make the newcomers feel bad just because they don't play Melee, or Melee really will die out.

First off, Damn. Pretty much every word you just said was absolute truth. (Except for the BS about 'earning' HD Melee wtf) I was just salty because nosleep for Melee.

Second off, I still say Sm4sh is riding Melee's coattails. The way it's picking up steam, it might not need to do so at Apex 2016, but there's a reason they played Sm4sh top 8 before Melee. It's because no one would stay up till 3 watching Sm4sh. VGBC usually puts the matches the viewers want to see on stream, but this time they put off the matches most people wanted to see unti late-night to try and give a popularity boost to a game that can't compete with Melee in terms of hype, competitive skill, and compelling competitors. You said Sm4sh could surpass Melee if given the chance, but the people at Apex didn't just give it a chance, (which I'm all for) they slighted Melee so Sm4sh could be promoted over it.

 

[revengeska]

Don't get me wrong; I've played and enjoyed Melee. But just because you have a louder voice when stating that Melee is deeper and more competitive doesn't make it any less absurd. 0-death combos for example are anti-competitive, and the fact that L-canceling and wave-dashing are highly touted aspects of the game by the community speaks to the actual lack of depth of the game, and thus needs ATs to separate the good players from the bad.

Those are my personal opinions, and I don't expect everyone to share them. I will even politely keep my mouth shut and play Melee/PM with the crowd and enjoy it, even though I'm often not at the same level. But PLEASE don't force your ridiculous #butitsnotmelee assertions about Melee being superior to ____, because I promise you that I want Sm4sh to succeed and become the dominant tournament game just as badly or more so than you want Melee to stay relevant.

Now, setting aside comparisons, I enjoyed watching Sm4sh on stream. Abadango in particular was fantastic to watch. While I prefer three stocks, the Bo3 matches took about 15-20 minutes each, which was a decent enough pace. Bo5 championship matches lasting up to 30 minutes are fine, and that amount of time gives serious respect to the climax of an epic event with several hundred entrants.

My roommate has said that he finds defensive play fun to watch. I think defensive options in the game might be a bit too strong for my preference, but I like watching players execute mind games and strategies consistently to earn kills and wins. Sm4sh is shaping up to be incredible in terms of balance and character's strategic diversity, and Apex highlighted that.

We need to move on from the #butitsnotmelee attitude. If you can't, that's fine, just stop trying to bring us down.

 

[HeroMystic]

I fully expected this to happen. Why? Because it happens all the time. VGBC's audience has been dissing Smash 4 long before Apex, even when Melee isn't running on the same day, so this is nothing new. It's just this time, people are actually starting to notice.

To note, VGBC had to put on Smash 4 because the secondary stream had to run Smash 64. They literally could not run Smash 4 on the second stream because Smash 64 was severely delayed, and so we had to wait for Melee to be done so Smash 4 could be put back on stream. Maybe the APEX staff wanted to put Smash 4 on blast to attract it to the crowd, but that's the main reason.

Smash 4 is not Melee, and I don't want it to be Melee. I enjoy both games and I want them both to continue thriving. But the media is going to have to realize our community is splintered as ****. I'm tired of seeing this **** happen.

Oh, and to note, Smash 4 had 25k+ viewers on the secondary stream until they all migrated to VGBC. A paltry amount to what Melee got but there are plenty of people who want Smash 4 to be taken seriously as a competitive game.

 

[Dragoomba]

Gee, I saw this crap coming a mile away. You know, what really needs to start happening is whenever the Meleeturds pull this disrespectful ****, and that's what it is, ****, just start dropping Melee from future tournaments. Once a few majors have Melee canceled, I'm sure the community will start cleaning itself up or risk becoming an ostracized subset.

It takes some balls for the various TOs to take this step, but this kind of trash is what Nintendo is going to remember most, and just proves Sakurai right that the 'hardcore' are to be dismissed entirely.

Yeah, drop the biggest competitive Smash game and have your event lose tons of potential entrants, viewers, and sponsors. That'll show em!

I know it, you know it, and it doesn't matter what side of the coin you're on, the whole concept of #OneUnit is a complete and total lie.

We already knew this the moment Project M was excluded from APEX.

 

[JmacAttack]

Yeah, drop the biggest competitive Smash game and have your event lose tons of potential entrants, viewers, and sponsors. That'll show em!

Smash 4 can pack the venues too. Final Battle was so full, we couldn't all fit inside. Melee loves to think the scene would die without them, but just like with the Grinch on Christmas, the show would go on despite them.

That said, excluding Melee from events is a silly idea that would only make the schism worse. What we need are leaders to step up and publicly condemn the hecklers, not on Facebook, not on Twitter, but in person on the mic.

 

[Dragoomba]

Smash 4 can pack the venues too. Final Battle was so full, we couldn't all fit inside. Melee loves to think the scene would die without them, but just like with the Grinch on Christmas, the show would go on despite them.

I don't disagree. Smash 4 only events can definitely bring in some numbers. Just saying that in a theoretical sense, having an already established tournament drop the largest Smash game is anything but an intelligent idea.

 

[ThatNintendoDude]

APEX lost all of Friday due to the venue switch, and quarters were Bo5 instead of Bo3. Sure, Smash 4 matches last longer than Melee on average, but there's your main reason why the timing was so off.

I love watching competitive Smash, both Melee and Smash 4. But this toxic community splintering makes me not want get involved on a deeper level.

The biggest thing for me is, you don't HAVE to like Smash 4. You're not obligated. It's more than ok if you prefer Melee. The only thing the community has to do is NOT BE A **** to other games and their fans. But they can't even handle that. Elitism and entitlement just for the hell of it is so disappointing to see. I think most of the top players and the level headed members of the community acknowledge and and understand this, but their voices get drowned out in the mob.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The Melee community is a problem and will continue to be one unless their representants actually step it up and call the obvious problem by name. I have a lot of respect for what D1 and prog are doing but they are two [+ a few other good people] outnumbered in a crowd of thousands of melee jihadists. The Brawl genocide by the Melee community has already happened, Smash 4 will be next in line without a doubt.

What the Melee community does and did was and will always be wrong. Unless they face this fact they will continue to make things terrible for everybody else [and themselves eventually].

 

[FormlessD]

I know there's the "When's Mahvel" meme but I don't remember seeing such blatant disrespect from the actual audience/commentators from FGC games. Maybe for Street Fighter x Tekken? Twitch chat will always degenerate.

Very disappointed that D1 broke out with that joke and that the audience couldn't stay civil.

 

[ThatNintendoDude]

Very disappointed that D1 broke out with that joke and that the audience couldn't stay civil.

I was actually pretty disappointed about that too. I know he had been watching a lot of Diddy and Smash 4 that day, and everyone was tired, but it just looks bad when you're such a public figure in the community.

 

[FormlessD]

I was actually pretty disappointed about that too. I know he had been watching a lot of Diddy and Smash 4 that day, and everyone was tired, but it just looks bad when you're such a public figure in the community.

At the end of the day it was a joke, but it just goes to show that certain people do prefer Melee and treat Smash 4 as the tonto little brother or pay lip service. It would've just been best to give D1 a break and put on someone who focuses on Smash 4 the mic.