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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

_clinton

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Uh, Sonic and Samus are both said to run at supersonic speeds or whatnot.
Yeah, and each Mario game has him exploring a large area in a very short period of time. Just looking at the platform games really fast you can see:

-Super Mario Brothers 1 has him and his bro saving the kingdom at the right moment right out of the real world from Mario Brothers or something
-Super Mario Brothers 2 has him doing it again with his brother (this game just is not remembered as well anymore lol)/or for the thing that seems to be canon I guess (or more so than "The Lost Levels") exploring the land of dreams with his brother, Peach, and a Toad (and the stuff from that went into later games lol).
-Super Mario Brothers 3 has him saving 7 themed kingdoms from Bowser's armies and then saving Peach from Bowser in his themed lava land
-Super Mario World has him and Luigi saving Dinosaur Land when Mario was trying to go on vacation (like Peach gets kidnapped when you start playing the game, in fact that happens a lot). Yoshi’s Island is only a small part of the land scape.
Super Mario 64 has him (and sense the remake I guess 3 others) exploring a ton of man-made dimensions in order to save Peach because I guess Bowser took her power or something again.
-Super Mario Sunshine has Bowser ruining Mario’s spare time (again) and it ends up causing Mario a lot of warping around a large tropical island in order to save the power source of it, which said power source is just a bunch of star power again, said source of energy has already been shown to create things (I’m just saying it in case this thread needs a reminder for why they are powerful in the 1st place). Still, I like how Mario, FLUDD, and just a certain breed of Yoshi was all that was needed to stop Bowser this time.
-Super Mario Galaxy has Mario ("and Luigi") stopping Bowser from using the power of the stars again on a larger scale to make his own Galaxy, the stopping of him destroys the universe, which ends up being remade and the energy from that is spread out for the events of the next game.
-Super Mario Galaxy 2 has Mario ("and Luigi") stopping Bowser again from using the power of the stars to save the universe this time again.

And although the gameplay may not exactly match what the game said, we can say that it's due to game limitations.
Yet you can’t see that as being the case with SMG? The game gives a clear hint that they are dealing with a large area that is certainly larger than our world (you know, considering how “our world” only makes up a small area of “world 2” in that game in case you haven’t got that already).

He may outrun a bullet, but those bullets aren't moving much faster than those turtles.
Yeah no, those turtles are moving a lot slower than bullet bills do.

Oh and he can also cover mountain ranges and so on in a short amount of time. I guess you have not noticed that the “universe” is pretty big as well though.

And for the record, the pokemon games make claims sometimes, but then doesn't back those claims up with gameplay (which is the opposite problem as what Mario has).
The funny thing about this part was that I was more or less pointing out the major cities in the pokemon world look small to the player on the outside, but I guess I can argue about the other thing again.
^_^

I like how you think that they don’t back up their claims in more than just the pokedex, the games have events going on all the time that back up some of the info thrown into the dex. such as with time travel and fighting a certain leader of Team Rocket in the 2nd generation remakes, but w/o talking about events and looking at just in game stuff I’ve seen things like the Lake of Rage, Hypno’s entry in the 1st generation remake is shown, about 3 games such as PMD showing off certain things like a person becoming a pokemon or a pokemon cursing someone else.

Still, the thing we all seem to hate is the dex saying nothing can break though this or the attack breaks though everything, but I thought this thread was going to ignore dex entries like that because I thought this thread had woken up about how stupid things like invulnerability is?
 

Crystanium

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There are limitations in games, but I need to know if it was said that Bowser was the size of a planet. If there is nothing that says that about Bowser in-game or in the instruction manuals, or even the official Nintendo strategy guide, I think we should reconsider the word "planet" for the size of Bowser. I don't mind if Bowser is huge. He was huge in Yoshi's Story.

On an unrelated note, I am resigning modship.
 

_clinton

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There are limitations in games, but I need to know if it was said that Bowser was the size of a planet.
Certain things like Starship Mario is called a “planetoid” right when it is shown to you when you 1st get on it, which means the size chart doesn’t really tell us much because while a planetoid may have been commonly used for larger objects in space, said objects do have some variety as far as size goes even though they are overall larger on average. Still though, there are plenty of other things bigger than Starship Mario in the game, such as every single level and of course Bowser himself.

He was huge in Yoshi's Story.
I think you are thinking of Yoshi’s Island 1 or 2 for the SNES and DS, and even then compared to what he is in SMG2, he sort of laughs at those sizes. This is the largest he has ever been really, any other game where he has used his giant Bowser form such as SMS, NSMBW, and so on had him using his own magic to power that form. However, in SMG2 he is using a Grand Star each and every time you fight him to make the form. The power stars and so on are again “planet level creation power” in high levels if you get my point for what role they have for the Mario games. Plus again Bowser’s goal is to make his own Galaxy using these powers with him at the center of it or something, and he sort of destroyed the universe at the end of SMG1 because of it and the time had to be reset.

Still, I mean just look at that planetoid you fight him on for the bulk of his fights, his arm is pretty much covering a good chunk of that when he hits the thing. It is funny how the game never really gives you a perfect up close shot comparison of Mario/Luigi and him (they are always somewhat away from him if you get my point) unless you try and make one yourself at the end of the game when he is trying to suck you into that black hole.



That is sadly the best I have found ATM.

Personally, I find it funny if Bowser was a planet though, because then the joke of "he is so fat he has his own gravitational pull" really actually applies to him.
 

Diddy Kong

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Bowser is also freakishly large in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. Also, one of the hardest Mario boss fights ever.
 

Crystanium

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Certain things like Starship Mario is called a “planetoid” right when it is shown to you when you 1st get on it, which means the size chart doesn’t really tell us much because while a planetoid may have been commonly used for larger objects in space, said objects do have some variety as far as size goes even though they are overall larger on average. Still though, there are plenty of other things bigger than Starship Mario in the game, such as every single level and of course Bowser himself.
Getting back to the comparison of Superman, can Mario lift Bowser? And how do we know how heavy Bowser is? No doubt he is heavy, but the weight of Earth is, for example is 5,973,600,000,000,000,000,000,000 kilograms, or 6,584,766,846,937,930,399,744 tons. I don't think Bowser even weighs as much as Mercury, which is like 5,000,000 tons. Another thing is that while the picture below shows the size of Bowser, we as human beings are specks when it comes to the size of Earth or any other planet. By the way, the link here shows Superman moving mulitple planets from one galaxy to another. Scroll down.

I think you are thinking of Yoshi’s Island 1 or 2 for the SNES and DS,
That's what I meant. ;)

That is sadly the best I have found ATM.
Quite huge. Um, is that Luigi in the middle?

Personally, I find it funny if Bowser was a planet though, because then the joke of "he is so fat he has his own gravitational pull" really actually applies to him.
Well, if he doesn't have a gravitational pull, I don't know if he could rightfully be called a planet. Still, in fiction, even human sized characters like the Blob has his own gravitational pull.
 

Crystanium

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Hmm, I doubt Bowser is -that- big, in the begining of SMG2 you see him, he is smaller than Princess Peach's Castle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Kzyf1jkMA

You're right when you say he's mad strong, not Superman strong though.

Sorry to hear you're resigning modship, Dryn =(
Well, I was going to resign, but I decided that I would rather not yesterday. The reason why I was going to resign was because I wasn't that involved in the Smash series. I am going to try to get back into the game though, and instead of using the Gravity Suit color, I am going to use the Dark Suit and call myself "Nightfall." "Night" will just be my tag online.
 

_clinton

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Getting back to the comparison of Superman, can Mario lift Bowser?
Not in this case, he was just kicking huge rocks/meteors at him, and he had enough force behind the kicks to really damage him, which is still impressive anyway.

Another thing is that while the picture below shows the size of Bowser, we as human beings are specks when it comes to the size of Earth or any other planet.
Yeah, and the earth is a speck of dust compared to the sun’s size, or like a marble compared to a hippity hop ball when looking at planets like Jupiter (or maybe Saturn, although that might be more like a basket ball in this case). The sun itself is pretty much less than a speck of dust when compared to other stars as well such as Antares.

Now, I don’t really expect the “type of fiction” coming from things like such as Mario or silver age (or whatever it was) Superman to show off stuff like that very well, not when stuff like this was around at the same time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kkc_Myyye20

I mean still though, also look at that link you gave me of Superman destroying a distant solar system or something like that with just a sneeze, they clearly aren’t drawing things to scale as well you know!

By the way, the link here shows Superman moving mulitple planets from one galaxy to another. Scroll down.
Personally, when I said Mario’s strength is compared to Superman, maybe I should have made it clear what one I was thinking about. I’m more or less thinking of the one that has trouble lifting a jet or a cruise ship, but whatever, at least I have some better ammo when I feel like trolling DBZ forms with Superman vs. Goku stuff ^_^

On that note about how silly fiction can get when the fan works from amateur writers = the real stuff from professional writers because the series is dead: how did Goku have “relations” with ChiChi in order to make Goten in the 1st place during the Cell Saga? Before he started training Gohan in the Cell Saga, ChiChi wouldn’t let him go of course and Goku just patted her on the back playfully while begging her to let him train Gohan and said light tap knocked her out of the house at like a “billion” MPH.

Of course this was during the anime where I saw this, so I don’t know if it was in the Manga, but whatever. Another example from the anime showing that Goku logically can’t have sex is during the boo Saga when they are entering into that tournament and there is a machine there that judges how much of a “punch” they have and how the DBZ fighters (except the ****er) barely tap the machine and it reads as like 900 pounds of force or something.

Quite huge. Um, is that Luigi in the middle?
Well, if you mean only close to Bowser’s arm there is a very small green guy (and still pretty far away if you think about it), than yes it is him dodging a direct attack from HUGE Bowser.

Well, if he doesn't have a gravitational pull, I don't know if he could rightfully be called a planet.
Sure, wreak my joke about him please >_>

Anyway, said rocks that Mario or Luigi kick at Bowser have clearly been around Bowser when fighting him as you can see in the games, so if you want to really care, than yes he has something around him maybe. Or they could just be around him because of magic, magic is in the series as well and Bowser is strong at it.

Hmm, I doubt Bowser is -that- big, in the begining of SMG2 you see him, he is smaller than Princess Peach's Castle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_Kzyf1jkMA
Bowser grows in size though when you are fighting him in SMG2 in case my screenshot of him trying to punch Luigi wasn’t showing that he grows (he also grows a bit bigger after the 1st two hits on him in each fight).
 

JOE!

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clinton, isnt that also a game mechanic?

in the same way a goomba can hurt mario equally as well as a punch from bowser can?
 

warpd

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We move on with life, sadden with our loss but stronger because of it.

Moment of silence everyone...(sniff)....
...kirby wins (runs)
 

JOE!

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......


*evil plot*


well, seeing as I have exp running the other "VS" thread.....

....and I have time off soon.....


<.<


>.>
 

PowerBomb

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Ask a mod before you actually do it though. I'm guessing a mod will want to approve this.

Get permission to make sure it's all right.

EDIT: Or the post below this post
 

UncleSam

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and then have it start over again? for the third time?
This thread has too many lives, I think it might be share stocking.
bad pun is really bad
 

Ganonsburg

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Because then you could either kill that one too or so you can brainwash the noobs into thinking Ness/Lucas pwn all and Samus and Ganon suck?

:034:
 

-Coco-

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Because then you could either kill that one too or so you can brainwash the noobs into thinking Ness/Lucas pwn all and Samus and Ganon suck?

:034:
If you don't like what he has to say then argue against him and disprove wat he says i've known him since the GFAQ days and I know for a fact that what he brings isn't totally obsurd.

why dont we all just ignore clinton if we all dislike what he brings to the thread?
He brings more to the discussion than you, I've seen what you posted and tbh you don't bring anything to the discussion.
 

JOE!

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thats because I am essentially the judge there

any time I say anything both sides attack me, so i find it better to observe and occassionaly talk
 

_clinton

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Because then you could either kill that one too or so you can brainwash the noobs into thinking Ness/Lucas pwn all and Samus and Ganon suck?
Please ***** some more why don't you? Funny how the 1st one didn't suck because people didn't take it seriously (yet it was closed at the end because of that, what BS).

Oh and it isn't "Samus and Ganon suck," it is just "Ganon sucks." The only issue I have with Samus is all that BS about her two so called invulnerability options the other side brings up which has given her some BS wins as far as I can see. Please explain to me again why no other character could stop Samus when she is in speed booster mode yet if a foe is big/bulky/strong enough Samus ends up going to a stop such as seen with things like Crocomire? Oh and I'm also pretty sure she couldn't run through Kraid or like 50 other bosses if the option came up as well.
 

Nova9000

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thats because I am essentially the judge there

any time I say anything both sides attack me, so i find it better to observe and occassionaly talk
And that's why I say you shouldn't take over this thread. Unlike TDB, neutrality isn't recognized in this thread. A lot of your points aren't necessarily on either side or just calling out clinton. I feel as if the people in here care about the thread, then one of them will step up and take ownership of it. Besides, you get bashed unnecessarily too often here.

*goes back to lurking*
 

Crystanium

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Please ***** some more why don't you? Funny how the 1st one didn't suck because people didn't take it seriously (yet it was closed at the end because of that, what BS).

Oh and it isn't "Samus and Ganon suck," it is just "Ganon sucks." The only issue I have with Samus is all that BS about her two so called invulnerability options the other side brings up which has given her some BS wins as far as I can see. Please explain to me again why no other character could stop Samus when she is in speed booster mode yet if a foe is big/bulky/strong enough Samus ends up going to a stop such as seen with things like Crocomire? Oh and I'm also pretty sure she couldn't run through Kraid or like 50 other bosses if the option came up as well.
Sorry to disappoint, but Samus is going to be even more broken. She apparently has this one technique in Other M called Concentration. She is allowed to use it after the Training Session. Now, it doesn't heal her all the way. That's yet to be observed and tested to see how much health she recovers. All that is said is that Samus heals enough to survive. However, all her Missiles are fully replenished. I don't know if Super Missiles and Power Bombs are can be refilled as well, but if they can, then Samus will have an unlimited supply of Crystal Flash.

Now, onto the Speed Booster thing, there are some things that I have observed, which can really end up being nothing but a game mechanic. I will give an example. I recall when you brought up the Kago stopping Samus from using her Speed Booster. I said that in reality, she would smash through the Kago. In Super Metroid, if you fly at a Kago, Samus will stop. In Metroid Fusion, however, she will fly right through the Kago and continue going until she runs into a wall. The second form of the Kago are destroyed on contact, whether Samus is running or flying.

As for Draygon in Super Metroid, when Samus flys right into Draygon, she kills it instantly. I know that Crocomire, as you have said, stops Samus. I don't know if this is when she is running or flying or both. Anyway, I don't really see the need to have Samus rely entirely on her Speed Booster to win her battles. She does fine enough throughout the Metroid series without using the Speed Booster at her aid. She can use this to do severe damage to her opponents, as well as avoid getting hit.

Anyway, that is all for now.
 

payasofobia

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What if I take this thread over?

I am willing to do it. That way I can abuse my powers to make the characters I like win have fun on the sidelines.
 

_clinton

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Sorry to disappoint, but Samus is going to be even more broken. She apparently has this one technique in Other M called Concentration. She is allowed to use it after the Training Session. Now, it doesn't heal her all the way. That's yet to be observed and tested to see how much health she recovers. All that is said is that Samus heals enough to survive. However, all her Missiles are fully replenished. I don't know if Super Missiles and Power Bombs are can be refilled as well, but if they can, then Samus will have an unlimited supply of Crystal Flash.
Oh yes, because no other character in the brawl universe has a way to restore "MP" for restoring "HP,” or a move that uses another stat to restore HP and MP.

Mario with star energy from something like TTYD lets him fill up an insane amount fast, and several other Mario characters aren't in danger of running out of “MP” anytime soon.
PSI is linked to "concentration" in the 1st place for the Mother games; that is why "butterflies" restore PP in M2/M3, they help the certain psychics “relax.”

Also, I'm pretty sure Super Missiles and Power Bombs are in a different category than missiles in the 1st place as far as weapons go, so I wouldn't count on them being fully restored, and if she has a way to restore all of her normal missiles anyway, than I'm sure she is going to be carrying less in that game as well, but that is just a guess.

Now, onto the Speed Booster thing, there are some things that I have observed, which can really end up being nothing but a game mechanic.
You know, I think you need to recall my main point about “game mechanics” in the 1st place. Things like HP/MP are game mechanics you know, but it certainly doesn’t mean that they aren’t going to be counted as something that isn’t “realistic” right? You are aware that if all of the game mechanics are thrown out of this thread, than you might as well not even talk about the games at all right?

Game mechanics/play are how a game tells its story in the 1st place, that is why as far as art goes, games have a lot more to do than other forms of media. After all, if the game isn’t fun or is buggy, just who will play it?

Now, how does the speed booster make Samus “invulnerable to everything” when it is clear that things can stop her while she is running in it? Especially when it is clear that out of those things that do stop her, they happen to be bulky in size (such as most bosses like Crocomire) or things that you wouldn’t want to run into in the 1st place (such as a wall or a bunch of spiky objects, or a claw).

You bringing up Kago is an interesting example though so I’ll talk about them. The places on just were you encounter them varies in the games, MF you encounter them said space station, where as in SM you deal with them in cave settings. There is clearly a lot more room to run around in a big “space station” than there is in a dark narrow “cave setting” so chances are they would be easier to get around them anyway. After all, just because the game is 2D doesn’t mean that realistically it is 2D. Still if that doesn’t work for you, keep in mind though that nothing Samus does can destroy the basic Kago foes in MF and they certainly don’t have little insects coming out of them when you blast them, which can be explained pretty well as well.

After all, you are aware that the X does more than just flat out copy their foes right? They morph the basic form of the object they eat and change it greatly, as you can see with this mainly (as far as backstory goes in “side notes”):
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Zombie_researcher

Oh, and this as well shows that they copy information to be used however they want to IMO:
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Fake_Chozo_Statue

However, please note things like these things as well:
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Arachnus-X
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Ridley-X
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/B.O.X._Security_Robot
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Mermen_Pirate
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Geron
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Nettori
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Halzyn
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Ki-Hunter
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Chute_Leech
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Dessgeega
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Fune
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Powamp
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Skultera

They can even do it to themselves:
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Cold_X
http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Mega_Core-X

Oh and I don’t know why you bring up Draygon considering he is one of the smaller and less armed boss fights that Samus fights (and I’m pretty sure it takes more than just one shine to do him in as well). Crocomire stops Samus when she is running, jumping, and flying, even the claw attack he has does damage to her. Oh and his claw isn’t the only attack in SM that does damage to Samus while boosting as well. Oh and I really have to wonder if you think Samus could speed boost through something like “mountain sized” Kraid or wouldn’t just be stopped in her tracks?

Anyway, I don't really see the need to have Samus rely entirely on her Speed Booster to win her battles.
How has she been winning battles again? Let’s look ok:
-The 1st time with Lucas it was just BS and you guys thinking Lucas will just be out fired and that his shields wouldn’t work (despite the fact that they aren’t armor if you get my point) despite the fact that Lucas is dealing with heavy arterially foes in his games all the time. Eventually you guys just keep bringing up so called invulnerability when it was brought up again.
-Pokemon trainer just brought up invulnerability as a coup out at the time, and you guys keep bringing it up for the next ones.
-Luigi again you guys just said that Samus will just keep running around.
-Mario was the same reason as Luigi, despite the fact that the Mario games make it pretty clear from what I see that various Mario characters deal with by far larger super speed based stuff.
-Samus vs. Ness was for the same reason as Mario and Luigi (Samus runs-no one can stop her BS)

Granted, not all of them are BS:
-Samus vs. Link I think it is clear biased on the Zelda side that someone would think that self trained warrior with dark ages equipment and magic of some sort would beat a super trained warrior packing Super Sci-fi weaponry and to some degree some limited psychic powers that let her use the weaponry better in the 1st place.
Oh and Samus will also beat Ganondorf IMO canon wise, but whatever.

If you think this thread hasn’t been overusing the speed booster, I really think you need to look again. Oh and for the games the speed booster is in, again I think you guys are overestimating just how much control Samus has at those speeds (again, once she “sparks” she can’t stop, and the normal “weaker” running isn’t much for control as well).
 

payasofobia

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And 5 arguments at the same time.

That is the catalyst for the wall of texts and the appearance of bad-quality arguments.

People responding to every little detail every post that oposses their argument.
 

warpd

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So do the discussions continue in this thread or is a different one going to be made?

I vote a new thread just because this one is long enough.
 

Crystanium

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If a new thread was made, it would need to have rules to be followed by. Seeing as how not every single person agrees with what someone else says when it comes to rules or the way something should be set up, this could be a problem. But, it would be entirely up to the OP. An example would be a character wearing powered armor versus a character who isn't. Despite the fact that the character with powered armor doesn't have HP, means that this character would be able to tolerate more powerful attacks. It would also need to stay on topic instead of jumping around from one character to another, and mentioning other characters not relevant to the discussion. I would also hope that everything need not be so scrutinized to the point that we have a fifty page essay, either. In the end, no one wants to read that. After all, a long page of written text is not a refutation at all.
 

Diddy Kong

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So.. what's happening in this thread? Why is it so dead?
 
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