Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[PowerBomb]

Red can always have his first Pokemon be a Steelix, which he can ride on as it uses Protect.

 

[justaway12]

For the first hit, while Magneton is still using Lock-on, then Mario attacks since Protect just gets worse and worse, even if Magneton attacks first, Mario can easily guard from Sonic Boom, then Attack.

I kinda agree with clinton that it would take more time to command all his pokemon at the same time, it takes longer to issue commands.

Also, the red essence in SMRPG make you invincible for 3 turns, enough time to kill Clefairy, Red, whatever and be prtected from sonic boom.

 

[JOE!]

now....is red allowed 4th gen pokemon, even though he only appeared in gen 1 and 3?

 

[Ganonsburg]

now....is red allowed 4th gen pokemon, even though he only appeared in gen 1 and 3?

Yeah. We see that, as the games are remade, that the older regions are able to get the pokemon of the newer regions. This tells us that the only reason that the newer gen pokemon weren't in the older regions is because Nintendo didn't make them yet.

If that's an acceptable answer, I won't explain further. If people argue or ask for a better explanation (except Clinton), then I'll explain better.

 

[PowerBomb]

You can battle Red with Gen IV Pokemon, so I'm guessing it's safe to assume he's seen and can obtain them.

 

[EKO_Fury]

do we have any indication that mario can ward off attacks on the mind? I dont think that he has any experience against it. I havent played like every single mario game ever or anything but I do believe every single attack he has ever faced was to his exterior and was physical. Couldn't red just pull out a psychic like mewtwo or something and just like wipe his mind with like psychic or confusion or something?

 

[_clinton]

Mario has fought foes that are clearly psychic and work in brainwashing foes such as in SPM.

 

[PowerBomb]

do we have any indication that mario can ward off attacks on the mind? I dont think that he has any experience against it. I havent played like every single mario game ever or anything but I do believe every single attack he has ever faced was to his exterior and was physical. Couldn't red just pull out a psychic like mewtwo or something and just like wipe his mind with like psychic or confusion or something?

Psychic and Confusion don't wipe minds.

 

[_clinton]

Psychic powers or at least "powers" dealing with mind **** are in Pokemon though, as seen with pretty much Darkrai and that kid he ****s up in D/P/P.

 

[PowerBomb]

Not so much wiping minds clean. Sure, Darkrai causes horrific nightmares to those sleeping when he is near them, but nothing wipes minds clean except Uxie, iirc.

And Uxie needs to open its eyes and look directly at the foe to do that.

EDIT: And I think that's debatable as well.

 

[_clinton]

Not so much wiping minds clean.

I never said it was wiping minds clean, but I guess that would be hard to tell based off how I had it censored:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MindRape

On that note, pretty much every psychic seems to be able to do that here in some form in this thread, and there are plenty of canon examples of it in Pokemon just from w/o looking at Mewtwo. I'm pretty sure dream eater itself is a form of that if you look at just what it does right (the whole forced violation part of the target(s) for starters if you catch my point ), and there are other move examples of course.

Plus I don't see how Darkrai or others having to have a foe sleeping before he can use the move is such a big deal. After all, he can "hypnotized" his foe as well then use his full mind **** them, so I don't see it a handicap in a logical sense, when logically you would have to be hypnotized in the 1st place before you could control someone. After all, a foe being hypnotized by a psychic in game is pretty limited as far as game mechanics go, but both Pokemon and Mother games clearly show that once a foe is hypnotized, they are at the mercy of who did the move as well in general.

 

[ElPanandero]

EDIT: just kidding missed a page >.>

 

[EKO_Fury]

Well I know not necessarily mind wiping, but I mean an attack on the mind in general. Like something like a darkrai did or something. And do we really know what a move like psychic would do to a human's mind? For all we know, it could totlly ravage and utterly destory a mind. Pokemon seem to be able to take intense fire, earthquakes, things like that and press on. They could have stronger mental toughness as well causing them to live through attacks on the mind that would kill humans (correct me if I'm wrong, MArio is interpreted as a human) And one more question, if there are things the pokemon are described as being able to do or maybe seen in movies or something but they never necessarily made a move depicting it. Like dialga is described as being able to tavel freely through time yet in game there is no move where you can go straight through time or something. Cuz if so, couldn't Red use Dialga and say"stop time, and beat the hell out of him while he can't move with flash cannon or something." Or he could say "go back in time to when mario was a ababy and beat him up then while he is powerless or at least significantly less powerful" Would Mario have an answer to that Do those types of things count or are they irrelavent in this discussion?

 

[PowerBomb]

You mean the Pokedex-like abilities that sometimes have little proof? We actually take a look at their dex entries to see if their Dex abilities are proven, and if so, they can use those abilities. If not... then they can't.

Dialga is allowed to do time BS because in PMD: Sky, he is shown to actually manipulate time (albeit he loses a very substantial amount of energy by doing it).

Sure, Psychic and Confusion could do whatever to humans, but we really don't know. I mean, the kid in DPPt had horrific nightmares, but he woke up and was like 'k' (yes, I'm exaggerating).

 

[_clinton]

And do we really know what a move like psychic would do to a human's mind?

There are psychic humans in the pokemon world as well as humans who became pokemon, and the move psychic in general is just using TK to **** up someone, it isn't telepathy.

(correct me if I'm wrong, MArio is interpreted as a human)

Mario is interpreted as more than just a human, note the "Super" title in his name.

He power wise is comparable to characters like Superman really, and it really shows if you look at him before the silver age Superman where Superman was pretty much given a new power each new book for some reason, like Superweaving.

Cuz if so, couldn't Red use Dialga and say"stop time, and beat the hell out of him while he can't move with flash cannon or something."

Why would time stop work on Mario when he has fought foes that use such powers and he himself can alter dimensions to work for him freely and use something like that himself (such as seen in SPM for the Wii)?

 

[JOE!]

superman blows

dude, how the HELL can you compare him to superman when touching a goomba = death?

 

[ElPanandero]

Well for superman touch a green rock= Death...yea pretty analogous

 

[JOE!]

no, not really as Superman has even found ways around kryptonite, and it doesnt kill him immediatley, it just takes away his powers.

mario can die from just about anything if he isnt careful

 

[the king of murder]

mario can die from just about anything if he isnt careful

Only in the 2D games. We can't use that as a fact that Mario can die from a weak attack. We can say it's a game mechanic. Mario has survived various explosions, powerful attacks ect..

 

[Crystanium]

He power wise is comparable to characters like Superman really,

I don't think so. Superman's strength falls under "Incalculable" in the Strength Scale, both Pre- and Post-Crisis.

and it really shows if you look at him before the silver age Superman where Superman was pretty much given a new power each new book for some reason, like Superweaving.

New Powers As the Plot Demands.

 

[JOE!]

Only in the 2D games. We can't use that as a fact that Mario can die from a weak attack. We can say it's a game mechanic. Mario has survived various explosions, powerful attacks ect..

did he actually survive them? or just avoid being hit?

 

[justaway12]

Come now, that can be applied to a lot of things, like how Sonic can touch one thing and lose a life or all of his coins =P
And yes, King of murder is right, in one game he dies by touching a koopa yet in another taking more powerful moves like in the RPGs.
Health in mario games are silly.

 

[JOE!]

couldnt the HP arguemtn for the RPGs aslo be written off as a game mechanic then?

 

[justaway12]

Couldn't walking into Goomba be written off as a game mechanic seeing as how games have much more powerful enemys?
The point isn't he has the HP, it's that he survived much more powerful moves, much more powerful than walking into a goomba.

 

[JOE!]

yet he dies from walking into a goomba in his most iconic games....

and the at least really hurt him in all the times he has goombas against him except the RPGs


so are we gonna write off his frailty to goombas, even though the MAJORITY of the time they are seen as (while lulzy) threats to his well being, because in the RPGs they arent that impressive?

 

[justaway12]

Not even RPGs, even in 3D games, he can survive an earthquake by a humongous Bowser, yet take the same amount of damage from it from a Goomba in the same game, it doesn't make sense that falling into a lava, getting hit by fireballs and getting electrified etc makes the same amount of damage as a Goomba.

Even in 2D games, balls of fire do the same amount of damage, it would be pretty silly saying he has to watch out for every thing because he dies from a Goomba, same thing could be said for Sonic too =/

Unless we're suddenly comparing Bowser to a bunch of Goombas =/

 

[JOE!]

fisrt off, earthquakes never directly damage anyone.

its the crap falling around FROM the earthquake that does damage.

second, did you argue making sense about a guy who can jump 9001x his height and land fine?

 

[_clinton]

I don't think so. Superman's strength falls under "Incalculable" in the Strength Scale, both Pre- and Post-Crisis.

I have to wonder what Mario's strength falls under, because he has been seen effortlessly lifting huge "building like" foes in some games.

New Powers As the Plot Demands.

Well, you got me there ^_^

Still it isn't like Mario doesn't do that as well, you have to love just how many power up items he has these days total.

second, did you argue making sense about a guy who can jump 9001x his height and land fine?

This is coming from a guy who put every brawl character and then some into a IRL setting for a thread.

 

[justaway12]

@JOE:Even though Mario games don't make sense, it's pretty common knowledge that Goombas are less powerful the Bowser, alot of games have common enemy doing similar damage than a boss, like some Sonic games, for example but we're not suddenly going to go, "LOL, just one hit and he's dead"

Though, to be honest, I'm not sure why we're having this conversation, so I'll stop =P

 

[JOE!]

but at the same time those are legit measurements of mario's average HP...which we have used in this thread before right? (or are we assuming everyone is like at 100hp or something?)

@clinton:

yeah, because we bring them into the RL setting. Here they have all their abilities and go against physics...then are tested with logic when there is no real logic about them

 

[_clinton]

Though, to be honest, I'm not sure why we're having this conversation, so I'll stop =P

I don't know, but it could be because Joe is trying to think that this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CollisionDamage

Is being realistic to the various game's canon, you'd think that someone who is made a IRL thread would be able to tell when something is pretty fake or not.



A lot of games also use contact damage for their game play as well, but for some reason a certain user is only bringing up Mario, what is up with that?

Besides Sonic and Mario, we of course see it in:
Zelda games
Kid Icarus
Metroid games
Donkey Kong Country games
Wario games
Yoshi games
Ice Climbers
Kirby games
Stuff like Star Fox Adventures or when on foot in SF Assault in certain cases
The list goes on, but I think it should be clear for the most part.

Oh and certain Superman games have it as well

Funny how most of these are platform/adventure games, which is also funny because these games are the ones that mainly contain invulnerability power ups, how about that?

 

[Crystanium]

I have to wonder what Mario's strength falls under, because he has been seen effortlessly lifting huge "building like" foes in some games.

I know Mario is a superhuman, but Pre-Crisis Superman was able to move planets. Anyway, if I had to guess, I'd probably say 800+ to 2 tons. Maybe slightly more. I would like to know who Mario has been lifting up lately, and if he was lifting whoever off the ground.

Well, you got me there ^_^

Not really. I was just throwing that out there because it seemed that's what you were trying to point out. All I did was just find the name because I recalled it.

Still it isn't like Mario doesn't do that as well, you have to love just how many power up items he has these days total.

Yeah.

 

[_clinton]

I know Mario is a superhuman, but Pre-Crisis Superman was able to move planets.

Well Mario is dealing with a bunch of powers that end up altering the structures of planets and the like. I mean Bowser was planet sized in SMG2 pretty much and Mario just knocked a bunch of meteors at him to beat him.

The final battle has Bowser trying to suck Mario into a black hole for example (and Mario ends up knocking him in it instead). Plus in SMG1 Mario did fight Bowser pretty much right by a sun.

 

[Crystanium]

Well Mario is dealing with a bunch of powers that end up altering the structures of planets and the like. I mean Bowser was planet sized in SMG2 pretty much and Mario just knocked a bunch of meteors at him to beat him.

The final battle has Bowser trying to suck Mario into a black hole for example (and Mario ends up knocking him in it instead). Plus in SMG1 Mario did fight Bowser pretty much right by a sun.

I've never played any of the SMG games. About Bowser being the size of a planet, we need to know what makes one worthy of being compared to the size of a planet. How big does a chunk of rock in space need to be to be considered a planet, let alone an asteroid? I doubt Bowser was the size of Ceres or the Moon, for example. Also, even if Bowser was a planet size, it doesn't mean he would have the same weight as a planet.

 

[PowerBomb]

Living things have different densities. I doubt Bowser would have a gravitational pull as strong as say, Earth's.

Also, the 'planets' in SMG are pathetic. They are not planets, they are colored asteroids capable of projecting a random gravitational pull.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Living things have different densities. I doubt Bowser would have a gravitational pull as strong as say, Earth's.

Also, the 'planets' in SMG are pathetic. They are not planets, they are colored asteroids capable of projecting a random gravitational pull.

Even better, they're called galaxies. One chunk of rock the size of a few football fields at best does not constitute a planet, let alone an entire galaxy, lol.

 

[_clinton]

I think you guys are again being way too picky about the size. How come no one is saying the same about Sonic or Samus when they are running at super sonic speeds in their games? I'm pretty sure that it is because we are all aware that if they were to actually move at those speeds the game would be unplayable right? Well the same could be said for those areas in Mario Galaxy as well, the areas are just scaled down from their actual size for the player's sack.

Mario is hardly the only game to do this, in fact it does it all the time, SMW, and SMB3 are too big examples, unless you want to explain to me why Mario shrinks whenever he runs up to a ghost house/fort in those games. Pokemon does it, Mother does it (ever look at Fourside?)

Still, I'll admit that they have the terms a bit off in SMG for when it comes to talking about things, but I'm pretty sure that it is done on purpose, sure Mario Galaxy calls even the smallest area a "galaxy," but they call the large area you go to a "world" for the game.

Now, do I really have to explain that the places you explore in SMG2 are more than just a "world" in size? I mean the "2nd World" is our solar system!

It is clear as day though that the story for SMG2 has Mario exploring the universe trying to stop Bowser (SMG1 only had him pretty much exploring a man made Galaxy, that when fully stopped somewhat destroyed the universe or something, and the story for SMG2 is pretty much a remake of SMG1's setting and more).

 

[Ganonsburg]

Uh, Sonic and Samus are both said to run at supersonic speeds or whatnot. Then we see in-game that they run fast, due to graphics and relative speed and all. So, if the game tells us something, and then the game backs it up with gameplay, that makes the statement true pretty much 100% of the time. And although the gameplay may not exactly match what the game said, we can say that it's due to game limitations.

However, Mario is not said to run at supersonic speeds. He may outrun a bullet, but those bullets aren't moving much faster than those turtles. So the game shows us that he runs kind of fast, but it never tells us that those speeds are anything extraordinary. Which means you're interpreting crap into the game, and many of us don't agree with your insane conclusions.

And for the record, the pokemon games make claims sometimes, but then doesn't back those claims up with gameplay (which is the opposite problem as what Mario has). So we still can't use the stuff that's not backed up.

So:
Story says something, game shows something similar-->Claim is valid
Story says something, game does not show something similar-->Claim is probably not valid
Story does not say something, game shows something-->Claim is not valid beyond what the game shows

And of course there may be a few exceptions, but that's generally the way it goes.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Edit: Disregard this. I opened a separate tab for this so that I wouldn't end up double posting during the server's burp, but that didn't really prevent much I guess.

 

[Zega]

realism? in that case, mario is a freak of nature-type ******, his tiny legs wouldnt be able to support his torso and gigantic head

he would just fall over and be a sitting duck

A sitting duck that can become invisible and shoot fire out of his hands.