Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[warpd]

All Ganon does is sit around eating potato chips waiting for Link to come.

Kirby should be able to eat Jigglypuff, but is it really ethical for one cream-puff to eat another?

 

[JOE!]

All Ganon does is sit around eating potato chips waiting for Link to come.

Kirby should be able to eat Jigglypuff, but is it really ethical for one cream-puff to eat another?

thats a good question...

what are the big-bads doing during the time the hero is questing/etc?

 

[PowerBomb]

thats a good question...

what are the big-bads doing during the time the hero is questing/etc?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, YEAH

Probably thinking of a way to extend their power or something.

And if the foe is small enough, Kirby should be able to ingest them.

 

[ElPanandero]

Why should Marth beat Ganny? He can canonically beat Link >_>

Only reason Link ever beats Ganny is because everyone else helps him.

Agree'd. 10 Chansey's

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ There is nothing to debate about with Kirby vs Jigglypuff, as long as I don't see "Kirby can only use Stone and defend himself and not change into another ability, lost for him", post like Fox vs Kirby. I can't say much about Lucas because I haven't played his game. ☆

 

[_clinton]

you know how the egg groups don't make sense?

Well, that is one of those things I've been saying for a while now as well in case this picture doesn’t clearly show it:

^_^

Cynthia states somewhere in the Arceus events that Arceus itself makes every egg from nothing and gives it to every Pokemon couple. Apparently, no mating involved, just Arceus spam.

I’m too lazy to actually hunt for this info, can you please post a video of it?

Marth, Link, Ike and Young Link should beat Ganondorf. Maybe Ness and Lucas to, but I'm not too sure yet.

Maybe Ness and Lucas? Please Psychic powers on a universe effecting scale > not even complete god powers that can barely effect the world most of the time.
You should also add Mario, Weegee, Wario, Bowser (**** even Peach, who is to say her sealing powers wouldn’t affect Ganon?), Pit, Kirby, MK, Samus, Tink (he has more than one game to get better compared to when he canon wise fought him and even before then he showed that he could almost match Ganondorf in sword fighting as well as protecting Zelda at the same time to a point), Fox, Falco, Wolf, Falcon, Pokemon Trainer, Mewtwo, Sonic (god that info in that match was so stupid), and Snake to that list as well.

Kirby should win btw.

Well yeah of course, but on that note I’m like shocked out of my mind that no one has tried to say Jiggs size would let her win considering how she more than 2x bigger height wise than Kirby canon wise.

Why should Marth beat Ganny? He can canonically beat Link >_>

?

Do you mean can't or what?

Because I'm pretty sure it depends on the Link.

Only reason Link ever beats Ganny is because everyone else helps him.

Funny how that is pretty much the reason why Ganny got his power anyway according to the original story from LttP, but whatever he killed everyone after that anyway because he is a ****er.

I’d like to try something different and point out that Majora has by far a greater power than anything Ganondorf has shown to have. He only needed a very “small amount of time” to destroy the world and he was also so powerful that even the 4 protective gods of that land (yes, those giants are gods ok, they made that land, but they got screwed by Majora though) couldn’t stop him from destroying it when he showed that he was in charge and not Skull Kid.

By “small amount of time” I’m saying that I’m aware that it was more than just 3 days. Majora was at least around for about a month causing issues because of what the Kafei and Anju side quest info shows, here is a picture in case you don’t know who I’m mainly talking about:

You’d think he would get a different set of clothes on instead of just wearing the stuff he was clearly in when he was jinxed like that, he is the Mayor’s son and his father (but not his mom at least from the looks of things such has how she hires “Link” to search for him anyway) seems to hint at knowing what has happened with him. But whatever, Majora turned Kafei into a little boy way before Link shows up as you can see in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iCG6wyKNIY&playnext_from=TL&videos=EyW3A_RhNik

I mean, even Majora’s reason for wanting to destroy the world is ****ed up.

Now my point about all this is that things like FD Link are said to have a power that is close to Majora's, so why would Yink using the FD mask lose to Ganondorf?

But really, noting on how there are better villains even in the Zelda series than Ganondorf (MM btw is awesome as far as games go as well) maybe I should just make a wonderful list of foes that have shown more power than Ganondorf has canon wise and ask how come Ganondorf is winning again? Really why is Ganondorf beating Mario when Mario has beat foes like the Shadow Queen or Bowser when he is packing universe destroying power? Why is Ganondorf beating Samus when something like Phazon has been in the series?

 

[warpd]

Mario needed help from godly powers in order to match Shadow Queen and Bowser. His power alone was not enough to beat them. I mean the Bowser fight was designed to defeat Mario, which would have worked had not Peach intervened. Still though, Mario should be able to defeat Ganondorf.

 

[PowerBomb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3dEmhd3DEU

6:00 to end. Cynthia says something about witnessing the very moment an egg is brought into the world. Since Arceus did that, it could be implied that Arceus makes all of the Pokemon couples have eggs- hence why the DCC says 'oh we didn't know it was there': obviously Arceus just makes it appear...

Yeah, the whole non-mating thing seems alien to us since mating is so normal in this world.

 

[REL38]

Wait, I forgot

Why are eggs and mating being argued?

 

[_clinton]

Mario needed help from godly powers in order to match Shadow Queen and Bowser.

I was actually talking about Mario Galaxy 1&2, not PM but I might as well factor this in, even if Mario has had better things these days.

His power alone was not enough to beat them.

The biggest power display the Shadow Queen has shown canon wise was making the Crystal Stars, am I the only one who notices that Mario is the only one of the PCs in that game who can use the Shadow Queen’s own power against her?

I mean even in the cases such as Mario 64, and Galaxy 1&2 the plot is just pretty much dealing with Mario pretty much effortlessly beating the **** out of whatever is holding the power star or in the case of a huge supply of power, Bowser himself and then retaking that power which he can use if he wants (you can even see some of that power in MG2, when Bowser loses the Grand Star he loses power, plus in general you see the stars allowing Mario to do some things as well such as fly).

Plus as I’ve said before, the power stars have been shown to have the power of creation in them in case you need a reminder of just how much power they have. The fact that most of the star children so far as in Mario (clear, I mean you play as him), Bowser (again very clear), Peach (she has been shown to directly work with star power such as in M&L:BIS), Luigi (Fully playable and in the same universe with Mario in SMG2), Wario (SM64DS, plus in general he has some other things in his games like the stars), and Yoshi (Again, SM64DS and SMG2, but he is clearly weaker than the others). The only one I haven’t seen grab a power star yet has been “a” DK, but the others have a clear direct link to this power.

I mean the Bowser fight was designed to defeat Mario, which would have worked had not Peach intervened.

Yes, who’d have thought technology > god power but not something like concentrated power of love? That is pretty much what Peach Beam is in the 1st place. Which I find is kind of funny, because the Star Rod and stuff like that could also be summed up as the power of love in a way.

Cynthia says something about witnessing the very moment an egg is brought into the world. Since Arceus did that, it could be implied that Arceus makes all of the Pokemon couples have eggs- hence why the DCC says 'oh we didn't know it was there': obviously Arceus just makes it appear...

There are several issues with that theory that I would like to address:
1. That “baby” is still a full grown pokemon, normal eggs laid by other pokemon only produce the weakest form of a pokemon (such as Pichu for example or other baby pokemon).
2. The “egg” you got didn’t need any walking to hatch, as in you directly got the pokemon at level 1. Even Cynthia goes on to say that “everything starts as an egg” which shows that maybe the “egg talk” thing is only a comparison to how you get it.
3. Legendary pokemon in general with pretty much only one exception can’t lay eggs at the daycare. That one exception is Manaphy with help from a Ditto, but even then Phione can’t become a Manaphy. Plus some other things are ****ed up about it such as how Phione is taller and bigger than Manaphy.
4. They are also for the most part genderless with again very few exceptions (I mean Heatran is the 1st legendary that can be male or female).
5. Plus they are seen as overall pretty powerful as well (even if in the metagame a good % of the pokemon will be worse than several others, but even then most of what is in the Uber level happen to be legendary). What I’m saying about that is that the 4th generation games have an explanation about why pokemon “change,” and that explanation has to do with power, and things that have power don’t have to change or produce new things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nnqri1yIdw&feature=related
(1:10-1:27, with the “complete as creatures” line)

Of course, legendary have a lot of things messed up with them like for example Mewtwo (again, he is a more powerful man made clone of the origin pokemon) was from a live birth instead of an egg according to the games, but eggs weren’t in the 1st generation of games I’ll admit, and things like Pikachu used to be quite different as a baby according to the anime before Pichu showed up.

Wait, I forgot

Why are eggs and mating being argued?

I don't know, and I don’t care really.

 

[PowerBomb]

It was something about how the egg groups don't make sense.

When Pokemon are born though, the lvl 1 thing can be seen as a 'baby'. A baby is an individual who, in some cases, is unable to defend itself and relies on its parent. Obviously, we don't see level 1 Pokemon in the wild, but we see level 2 - 65 or levels around that.

Oh, and Kanghaskan laughs at this.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Mario needed help from godly powers in order to match Shadow Queen and Bowser. His power alone was not enough to beat them. I mean the Bowser fight was designed to defeat Mario, which would have worked had not Peach intervened. Still though, Mario should be able to defeat Ganondorf.

What makes you say that? Unless Mario has something that "sparkles with the power to repel evil," he "cannot defeat [Ganon]." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtQ9zNXMyxE (2:04)

What does Mario have then that fits the criteria? Of course, I'm not going to make you go find something that literally sparkles or shines, but what of Mario's repels evil (as in, is designed to repel evil, not has the capability to repel evil)? And even that won't be enough to defeat Ganon (see: every final battle between Link and Ganon. Link always needs some kind of help).

(bump)

 

[JOE!]

this is what I've been saying...canonically only Link could defeat ganon, but even then he needs a whole lotta help

 

[Lord Viper]

☆ Though Crystal Stars can be used for good and evil, all seven of the Crystal Stars can repel evil, (look at the final battle in Paper Mario TTYD and reading the story of the past). ☆

 

[Diddy Kong]

Marth still makes a decent shot I think cause of the Shield of Seals. And seeing as Ganon could be hurt by various other swords than the Master Sword, Falchion would be able to hurt him as well.

 

[ElPanandero]

I like how "able to" and "can" are being used interchangeably. Even if Marth can hurt Ganon, Ganon can still morph into a giant teleporting bull-pig, cast magical spells, and weild a sword equally as well.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Haha, mentioning Ganon is like an electric shock to this thread. I think something that would help this thread stay more lively is if we were to go with Joe's suggestion, or if Raizen could move the match-ups a bit faster (not saying he should be checking this thread all the time, but if he can't be here daily or every other day, I think we should do clumped discussions).

 

[JOE!]

i really think it'd be best to switch to a "we know x beats y and loses to z" mode now that you've done so many MUs...my thread had the same cast (minus GW and ROB) and essentially stopped after 5 rounds due to us knowing everything about each char enough to say "oh, Samus really doesnt lose to anyone...and Ganon is very good, but good projectiles beat him"

and once the throw-away Mus are done, you can focus on the ones that remain for discussion, such as in the canonical sense: who beats ganondorf?

and then maybe you could move onto other characters beyond smash like TDB...or the Assist Trophies/etc

 

[Ganonsburg]

I think the problem there is that it's over too quickly. Just while going too slowly kills the thread, going to quickly will also have it die quickly. I don't know how we'd slow it down though. Or, we could start doing teams after singles....that would be insane. And would take a while, even with the group method. Ganon + Samus = unbeatable, haha. Or Ganon + Bowser for supervillain tyranny.

 

[ElPanandero]

I don't think Joe's system would work here because Clinton would be hard to convince on some match-ups

 

[Diddy Kong]

I like how "able to" and "can" are being used interchangeably. Even if Marth can hurt Ganon, Ganon can still morph into a giant teleporting bull-pig, cast magical spells, and weild a sword equally as well.

Yes Marth could hurt Ganon, and thanks to the Shield of Seals, he's invurnable to most of Ganon's magic, and he heals fully automatically after every "turn".

 

[PowerBomb]

Yes Marth could hurt Ganon, and thanks to the Shield of Seals, he's invurnable to most of Ganon's magic, and he heals fully automatically after every "turn".

The Fire Emblem is used by Marth to open chests without a key. although after it is upgraded into the Shield of Seals it gains the ability to repel Earth Dragons. Contrary to popular belief, it is not needed to wield the Falchion, although Marth does wield the two together

I don't see anything about repelling magic.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Well, if more people want me to go with Joe's system, then I might just do so. But you're going to have to bare with 1 char vs. the rest for MULTIPLE weeks.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Vs. the cast one by one.

Let's do this.

Re-evaluate the ones that have already been discussed if you have to.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Mario vs:

1) Bowser - Lose; all the battles that show Bowser at his finest require the help of some other.
2) Captain Falcon -
3) Diddy Kong -
4) Donkey Kong -
5) Falco -
6) Fox -
7) Ganon - Lose; Mario doesn't have the equipment to defeat Ganon.
8) Ice Climbers - Win.
9) Ike - Unsure of. How does Ike's blessing work? Is anyone sure of how it works?
10) Jiggly Puff - Win
11) King Dedede - Win (size)
12) Kirby - Win (size)
13) Lucario -
14) Lucas -
15) Luigi - Tie? Don't they almost always display the same abilities? I guess I'd give the edge to Mario because he's been the star of more games.
16) Mario - N/A
17) Marth -
18) Metaknight -
19) Mewtwo -
20) Mr. Game & Watch - Win (G&W is incapable of anything)
21) Ness -
22) Ocarina of Time (OoT) Link -
23) Olimar - Win (size)
24) Peach - Win, I think. Peach generally can't take care of herself, although I think her parasol might cause a few problems.
25) Pichu - Win
26) Pikachu -
27) Pit -
28) Pokemon Trainer -
29) R.O.B. - Win
30) Roy -
31) Samus - Lose
32) Snake -
33) Sonic - Tie? I don't know, it depends on how we define their limits
34) Toon Link -
35) Twilight Princess (TP) Link - Win
36) Wario -
37) Wolf -
38) Yoshi - Win
39) Young Link -
40) Zelda - Win
41) Zero Suit Samus - Win

Notice that I split Link into OoT and TP, considering they've both been in the Smash Bros games. If no one else likes it, we can put them back together.

I'm not that informed on Mario's abilities, so I just filled in what I felt confident on.

Win: 13 (13 x +1 = +13)
Lose: 3 (3 x -1 = -3)
Tie: 1 (1 x 0 = 0)
Undetermined: 23 (23 x 0 = 0)
Total: 40 ( sum = +10)

After we fill out all the match-ups, we'll have a better idea of where he ranks.

 

[JOE!]

I don't think Joe's system would work here because Clinton would be hard to convince on some match-ups

easy: we ignore him

 

[_clinton]

Oh, and Kanghaskan laughs at this.

Kanghaskan does laugh at it. I've already been talking about how I feel about levels though and how they don't make any real sense.

What makes you say that? Unless Mario has something that "sparkles with the power to repel evil," he "cannot defeat [Ganon]." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtQ9zNXMyxE (2:04)

I like how there are two things about that video that give the script away:
1. The sword is only a normal sword now because it lost that power (it lost it and became normal when Link got it)
2. The power to repel evil can be in pretty much anything.

I really want to know why the power to “repel evil” still isn’t just something such as an equivalent to a “holy” element like in so many RPGs/games in general. Really where again in the Zelda series do they distinguish between “repel” and “holy,” especially when stuff like the triforce is around? This is a neutral power in the 1st place, so why wouldn’t another power like the triforce from the canon (as in god power, even if the amount Ganondorf has is a small amount) not just work on that w/o the special side effect of so called “repel evil?” (I mean can you really say that the Master Sword is stronger than the triforce or the likes?)

Also I still want to know why you don’t think the power to repel evil isn’t linked with large amounts of things such as focused light, I mean how in the **** are the “light arrows” something other than the common “holy” element from games just from looking at how they work in the description as well? Or on another note how are they logically nothing more than just a concentrated blast of light? I mean looking at the logic behind what the games show now if you don’t mind (because that works a lot better than just saying something like lolgoddiditsorrybutyoulose):

The Zelda games clearly show that the light arrows are really nothing more than huge amounts of highly concentrated light based off what various puzzles they have been shown to solve in the 1st place. I really have got to <3 the mirror shield and how it pretty much shows that you can get the same effects of a light arrow just as long as you can find some direct source of light somewhere, then pick up the shield so that it is hit by the light (for the focused part), and then flash it at things.

The fact that we have games like WW, which I know there are some issues of course for comparison sense I’m aware that you get the light arrows near the end of the game, but if you go back to things like oh for example the Earth Temple you can see that the light arrows work on stuff here. The best example is from Stone Tower Temple though (MM, this is a really good source here, I really do <3 this game), but even in OoT if you want to look at certain puzzles right again (such as “sun switches” which I’m pointing out because the light arrows do come late in both WW and OoT) clearly show that you can use either the mirror shield or the light arrows to solve a lot of their puzzles.

Of course, the best part about this is that they kill the same enemies really well as well, but whatever ^_^

So why wouldn’t Samus’ light beam not work on ****ing Ganondorf again when it pretty much has the properties of a light arrow but more? (Especially because it also is called “holy” by the people who pretty much made it in case you didn’t know that)

However, what makes you think someone who is pretty much linked to a mini power of creation type skill can't harm "evil" (talking about Mario now). Considering how Mario is busting up evil all the time in his games (and it is usually given a reason for why) I really don't see why he couldn't just bust up Ganondorf and call it a day.

Really, how about an example of how silly you are being really fast with the whole “only evil busting stuff that is nothing more than the equivalent to holy beats Ganondorf:”

Are you really going to say some for some other canon battles for example that "God" (if you get my point from that one thing) couldn't harm Ganondorf just because "God" doesn't have Zelda's canon of busting evil?

How about Yune from the FE games (for an example that wouldn’t PO people as much)? What makes you think that if she were to fight Ganondorf (as in not Ike), she couldn’t just walk all over the ****er? I mean she pretty much just lols at the idea of “good and evil” as well in the 1st place.

Or Giygas? His power is only compared to a universe threat and people in the games do think he is a god. Plus even the dragon’s power/power of the earth from Ness and Lucas is clearly linked to being able to wipe out “anything” if it wants to, good or evil, which doesn’t help that much when Giygas has that as well.

How about stuff in the Castlevania games for a less extreme example but is pretty much showing a lot in common with the idea from Zelda in how stuff works? How would Ganondorf win vs. someone in the Belmont clan? They are pretty much only about destroying evil. I don’t know why someone couldn’t fling a flask of holy water on Ganondorf and watch as the ****er burns from touching it or show him what a super human vampire hunter wielding a holy whip can do to him.

1) Bowser - Lose; all the battles that show Bowser at his finest require the help of some other.

I’ll just talk about these really fast, SMB, SMB3, SMW, SM64, SMG, SMG2.

One has to question really about how much help others “give” Mario when by SM64 or that remake of it Bowser has pretty much only shown that he sees Mario as his rival (and it is usually Mario who beats him). Plus there is still the fact that the others who are so called helping Mario in the 1st place are in reality asking for his help in the 1st place.

Oh and personally if by finest you mean like SMG2 for example, Mario has shown that he can beat up Bowser to the point of just pretty much lol. Bowser being planet sized and powered up by a grand star of various amounts of power. Oh and just for how much power he has

Spoiler

clearly by the 3rd fight we see that Bowser is chances are being powered by the Cosmic Observatory again in case you wanted to know how Rosalina comes into play for SMG2, still Bowser

is still no match for a POed Mario even with that much power.

9) Ike - Unsure of. How does Ike's blessing work? Is anyone sure of how it works?

A large stat boost is what the thing is logically. In case you forgot highly trained warriors without a blessing or the equipment can canon wise still beat humans with a blessing (granted those humans aren’t trained, so that is why they really were not the biggest threat).

Personally, the king of the Dragons with a stronger blessing being backed by a bunch of smaller dragons is on Ike’s big list of things that he has beat up (even though he clearly has help, and a good % of them who also happen to be almost as strong as the big one didn’t want to fight in the 1st place, oh and the prince of the dragons was on Ike’s side as well).

Still, Mario has that on his list as well, even the powered up part, in fact they are always pretty much powered up, one in SMG2 had a grand star in his power source and guess what I’ve already said grand stars can do already? Of course Mario as far more on his list, but whatever.

15) Luigi - Tie? Don't they almost always display the same abilities? I guess I'd give the edge to Mario because he's been the star of more games.

A tie would be the best answer I guess based off what is known about Weegee anyway, even though canon wise he has by far more power than any of the other star children. Canon wise Mario and Luigi have saved each other a good number of times as well, so no to saying that Luigi wins just because canon wise he has a major game where he saves Mario from a bunch of boos (which btw really shows off how powerful boos can be, **** pokemon ghosts even if they are by far some of the biggest nightmare fuel pokemon, King Boo would destroy them all).

24) Peach - Win, I think. Peach generally can't take care of herself, although I think her parasol might cause a few problems.

Why would the parasol cause a few problems when Peach has shown that she can’t really fight w/o support protecting her to use her powers at their fullest anyway?

I’m pretty sure things like Perry, FLUDD, and Epona and the likes are banned anyway because as far as outside help goes they clearly have the ability to be separate characters from the discussion anyway.

33) Sonic - Tie? I don't know, it depends on how we define their limits

Oh ok, Mario can handle being shot through space at speeds that chances are happen to be light speed (you are aware that in SMG1 that is by far the case), the distance is pretty much the size of the universe and how that goes. Skill wise Mario has shown that he has super strength, speed, flight and so on with his power ups. He canon wise is linked to a mini power of creation.

Sorry Sonic, but I don’t see you travelling through the deep ends of space, travelling through a multiverse or the space between them, or even having a good game these days like Mario does ^_^

On that note, how did Samus win again other then lolspeedbooster/phazonBS?

 

[JOE!]

quick note....

are we factoring in blatant set-ups or game mechanics into this? or is this uppposed to be strictly canon...as with mario vs bowser....the bowser fights are designed to be beatable by the player

 

[REL38]

quick note....

are we factoring in blatant set-ups or game mechanics into this? or is this uppposed to be strictly canon...as with mario vs bowser....the bowser fights are designed to be beatable by the player

Strictly canon is silly since it ignores gameplay altogether in many cases

 

[JOE!]

yet at the same time, we run into some characters being designed to lose to the protagonist gameplay wise, wher ein canon they would easily win >.>

 

[Ganonsburg]

We just need to find the right balance of the two. How, who knows? If it's a problem, we'll see it when people disagree with each other. We debate, and then we're closer to having that balance.

 

[JOE!]

Indeed, but it's blatantly prevalent with what clinton said...

in 1 most instances Bowser pwns Mario, but in like 64 and Galay, Mario seesm to beta bowser with no "powers", as Bowser is designed to lose those fights...

 

[Ganonsburg]

Right, so in such a case we'd probably ignore the final battles in those games (still allowing them their powers) and develop our own results. Maybe we could come up with a list of abilities for the two and see how they stack up.

 

[gooolist]

This is so interesting thread. Bowers shouldn't be related yet! yeah vote towards link, same thing as POKE40 said.

 

[warpd]

It is offical. Kirby now wins every match-up because he has epic yarn.

 

[Diddy Kong]

**** Kirby, DKC4 baby! **** YEAH! ****, ****, ****, ****, **** YEAH!

Also, another cel shaded Zelda ftw. I liked the Wind Waker, but this sucks.

Also, also: Golden Sun Dark Dawn!

 

[REL38]

Yarn >>>> anything

Kirby now beats Ganon and Samus combined

 

[Diddy Kong]

Zelda was a bit disapointing though... >_> I had such high expectations for it.

 

[PowerBomb]

Cel-shaded? Really? >_> Whatever, maybe it'll grow on me like WW.

Finally, something for Kirby. Been waiting for this.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Cel-shaded? Really? >_> Whatever, maybe it'll grow on me like WW.

Finally, something for Kirby. Been waiting for this.

Have you seen it yourself? It's actually pretty nice, like an updated (less polygonal) OoT, and a mix between TP and WW.