PowerBomb
Smash Master
Yo warpd, the time stopping portion of Mike/Crash is a game mechanic. It isn't really explained why time stops.
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Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10
- Thread starter WhatIsRaizen?
- Start date
The reason why Lucas/Ness don't use PSI Fire might be the same reason everyone else can't use Rocken/Love. Just an idea.
K, my bad. IGNORE THAT PART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
missingnomaster
Smash Lord
If an ability causes a time stop, and the time stop is not explained by anything in game, and the ability is not said to cause a time stop, the time stop is generally treated as a game mechanic in this thread and ignored. (EDIT: Powerbomb ninja'd me)
~~~
That really makes no sense and directly contradicts what happens in the game.
Abilities should take as long as they do in game, if _clinton can't agree to that, that's his problem.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Quite a bit worse actually. >.< Like an eight wheeler, full cargo. With spikes.
PowerBomb
Smash Master
Doesn't spinning increase the power or something?
_clinton
Smash Master
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- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
PowerBomb, the problem with your analogy is the simple fact that there are literally tons of fighting styles:
http://www.fightauthority.com/martial-arts-styles.php
So…the whole reason that something like Infernape learning close combat and why Blaziken can’t could logically just be debated that Infernape just learned a different fighting style then what Blaziken learned in his path of becoming an expert **** fighter…
But…the thing I’m trying to debate here is that there is only “one type” of PK (by definition of what the move is and as seen in the actual canon for the games)…and the logical reasoning behind it is that psychokinesis is used to change matter/ect. in some shape or form…there is no difference between the style…all of the moves do what I just said in some way…except for PK Love/Rockin…
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588301/34560
Kirby standing ready with a power on would be the equivalent to Lucas in his battle menu getting ready to select what he was going to do for his turn…
The second Kirby attacks with that power would be the equivalent to Lucas using his turn…
Here…this is even what Kirby’s battle menu could look like in order if it was Mother 3 ^_^
Attack, Power, Item, Guard
Compared to what Lucas has:
Attack, PSI, Item, Guard
Oh my ^_^, that I think could explain why time “freezes” when Kirby does whatever…
Does that explain it a bit better?
Nothing in the descriptions for Fire, Freeze, Thunder, and so on says that only such and such can canon wise learn them…Fire, Freeze, Thunder and so on also aren’t connected to a bloody world+ altering power…
I like you a lot
^_^
Well...I'm off for now...bye everybody!
http://www.fightauthority.com/martial-arts-styles.php
So…the whole reason that something like Infernape learning close combat and why Blaziken can’t could logically just be debated that Infernape just learned a different fighting style then what Blaziken learned in his path of becoming an expert **** fighter…
But…the thing I’m trying to debate here is that there is only “one type” of PK (by definition of what the move is and as seen in the actual canon for the games)…and the logical reasoning behind it is that psychokinesis is used to change matter/ect. in some shape or form…there is no difference between the style…all of the moves do what I just said in some way…except for PK Love/Rockin…
Only by appearance from us does it seem to have a long start up time...but by the definition of what is actually going on while it is happening...it isn't short at all...in fact...according to the monkey that showed Ness how to use it...it happens in an instant:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588301/34560
Hell...the fact that it happens in an instant is even shown for the game...because time has "seems to have stopped" for those around you when you are actually using the move...oh and the fact that you can't use it in a cave/whatever is a lie as well...Mother 1 you could use it in a cave...and canonwise you even break the rule two times in Mother 2 (once with Poo, the other when Ness returns)
If I may…I wish to try and compare Kirby’s game play to that of Mother 3 for a second…
Kirby standing ready with a power on would be the equivalent to Lucas in his battle menu getting ready to select what he was going to do for his turn…
The second Kirby attacks with that power would be the equivalent to Lucas using his turn…
Here…this is even what Kirby’s battle menu could look like in order if it was Mother 3 ^_^
Attack, Power, Item, Guard
Compared to what Lucas has:
Attack, PSI, Item, Guard
Oh my ^_^, that I think could explain why time “freezes” when Kirby does whatever…
Does that explain it a bit better?
Ah no…there is actual canon evidence for the game stating in at least 3 areas that I can think of off the top of my head that only Lucas/Ness can use PK Love/Rockin…hell…
Nothing in the descriptions for Fire, Freeze, Thunder, and so on says that only such and such can canon wise learn them…Fire, Freeze, Thunder and so on also aren’t connected to a bloody world+ altering power…
^_^
I like you a lot
^_^
Spinning IMO is the thing that is preventing Newton's 3rd law from ****ing Sonic for moving at those speeds when he hits something...sort of like how Samus' armor is IMO the reason for her not getting ****ed as well at those speeds from hitting something...
Well...I'm off for now...bye everybody!
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Yep, adds even more force >.<
Its also as clinton said too, including that odd aura he projects though im guessng its the speed or wind barrier created. Though its always there even at hyper sonic speeds
PowerBomb
Smash Master
AND THAT'S WHY SONIC HURTS
@_clinton: Except for PK Love/Rockin'? >_>
And there is no evidence towards that for Infernape and Blaziken. Fine, how about this? They both can learn Normal-type moves, they both can learn Scratch. They both have fingers (claws), and have a similar stature. However, Infernape knows Fury Swipes whilst Blaziken does not. If Blaziken gets hit by Fury Swipes, does he learn that move? No, he doesn't.
And I don't think there are so many 'scratching' styles.
@_clinton: Except for PK Love/Rockin'? >_>
And there is no evidence towards that for Infernape and Blaziken. Fine, how about this? They both can learn Normal-type moves, they both can learn Scratch. They both have fingers (claws), and have a similar stature. However, Infernape knows Fury Swipes whilst Blaziken does not. If Blaziken gets hit by Fury Swipes, does he learn that move? No, he doesn't.
And I don't think there are so many 'scratching' styles.
REL38
Smash Lord
@Clinton
While I try to catch up with what I've skimmed through, I have a few questions.
Why pass off the start-up lag of moves such as PSi Shield or PK Love as gimick/for show?
That means just about everyone's moves come out instantly if tossed off as gimick.
Where do you find Mother 3 game scripts?
A link would be appreciated. Can't seem to find one :/
Is teleportation the only move Ness learns by simply watching?
If yes, then I'm not buying "look n' learn" moves.
While I try to catch up with what I've skimmed through, I have a few questions.
Why pass off the start-up lag of moves such as PSi Shield or PK Love as gimick/for show?
That means just about everyone's moves come out instantly if tossed off as gimick.
Where do you find Mother 3 game scripts?
A link would be appreciated. Can't seem to find one :/
Is teleportation the only move Ness learns by simply watching?
If yes, then I'm not buying "look n' learn" moves.
Samochan
Smash Master
Anyone can learn a move if it's demonstrated to them by a teacher, sheesh. >_> We learn things all the time from demonstrations. Someone shows us, then tell us what to do and then we try it ourselves. Besides the monkey tells ness how to perform the move and shows it, you're implying ness just watches a move and by watching, learns how to do it.
"'I'll give you a special skill to help you move through space as you wish.
'Learn the skill from the monkey over there...
'Would you like to learn this special power?
>>Yes
>>No
If "No":
'Ha ha ha. That's your prerogative.
'Be sure that you do not talk to the monkey, and go.
If "Yes":
'Ha ha ha. That's wonderful!
'Speak to the monkey over there.
(Monkey)
'Kyakyekyai kya
'(I'll teach you teleportation.)
'Kyakyakya
'(Let's go outside.)
(Monkey)
'Hikikki.
'(Follow me, like this way.)
(Monkey)
'Kyakya Kyokyo
'(Ok, I'll do a teacher's demonstration.)
'Kyakyakyak Kyakkya
'(If you learn this, you can go anywhere you've been previously.)
'Kyakkyaki kiki
'(You can go there instantly.)
'Kyakki Kyaki
'(This skill can't be used in a room or underground, though.)
'Ukkie
'(I went to Fourside and returned.)
'Kyaakyakkya
'(I showed you the basic, straight course,
'but you can also build up enough speed while turning, if you have enough
room.)
'Ukkikie
'(Ok! Why don't you try it, young man!)
'Ness learned how to use PSI Teleportatin.
'Kyaho!
'(Great! Okay, the teacher is going home now.)"
Ness doesn't learn random moves just by watching someone else do it. He needs to teacher to teach it to him just like everyone else. <_< He might've learned it on first try, but not everyone need to do it the hard way and through errors. Not forgetting it cannot be that hard of a skill in earthbound universe, considering how a monkey has learned it... psi must be so awesome when even monkeys can do it. =)
Oh and btw, Lucas nor Ness are not your average 13 year old kid size but shrimps. About half of the human lenght is due to their feet, but neither boys have long feet, if almost any feet at all. Ness' head is 2,5x of the size of his own body, same with Lucas. I do not have accurate measurements here, but circumference of adult human head would be around 50-60cm and head is approximately 30-40cm tall, give or take. So that would make Ness & Lucas the size of a small kid (well duh, they are supersmall), 100cm long at maximum, but seems to lean more toward 70-80cm tall. Not forgetting neither kid has gone through any puberty obviously, them being shrimps as they are, therefore making it impossiblity for them to hit the average kid height of 150 even. Personally I'm very short, 154cm but with Lucas and Ness having no feet at all, they'd be only at half of my size.
"'I'll give you a special skill to help you move through space as you wish.
'Learn the skill from the monkey over there...
'Would you like to learn this special power?
>>Yes
>>No
If "No":
'Ha ha ha. That's your prerogative.
'Be sure that you do not talk to the monkey, and go.
If "Yes":
'Ha ha ha. That's wonderful!
'Speak to the monkey over there.
(Monkey)
'Kyakyekyai kya
'(I'll teach you teleportation.)
'Kyakyakya
'(Let's go outside.)
(Monkey)
'Hikikki.
'(Follow me, like this way.)
(Monkey)
'Kyakya Kyokyo
'(Ok, I'll do a teacher's demonstration.)
'Kyakyakyak Kyakkya
'(If you learn this, you can go anywhere you've been previously.)
'Kyakkyaki kiki
'(You can go there instantly.)
'Kyakki Kyaki
'(This skill can't be used in a room or underground, though.)
'Ukkie
'(I went to Fourside and returned.)
'Kyaakyakkya
'(I showed you the basic, straight course,
'but you can also build up enough speed while turning, if you have enough
room.)
'Ukkikie
'(Ok! Why don't you try it, young man!)
'Ness learned how to use PSI Teleportatin.
'Kyaho!
'(Great! Okay, the teacher is going home now.)"
Ness doesn't learn random moves just by watching someone else do it. He needs to teacher to teach it to him just like everyone else. <_< He might've learned it on first try, but not everyone need to do it the hard way and through errors. Not forgetting it cannot be that hard of a skill in earthbound universe, considering how a monkey has learned it... psi must be so awesome when even monkeys can do it. =)
Oh and btw, Lucas nor Ness are not your average 13 year old kid size but shrimps. About half of the human lenght is due to their feet, but neither boys have long feet, if almost any feet at all. Ness' head is 2,5x of the size of his own body, same with Lucas. I do not have accurate measurements here, but circumference of adult human head would be around 50-60cm and head is approximately 30-40cm tall, give or take. So that would make Ness & Lucas the size of a small kid (well duh, they are supersmall), 100cm long at maximum, but seems to lean more toward 70-80cm tall. Not forgetting neither kid has gone through any puberty obviously, them being shrimps as they are, therefore making it impossiblity for them to hit the average kid height of 150 even. Personally I'm very short, 154cm but with Lucas and Ness having no feet at all, they'd be only at half of my size.
_clinton
Smash Master
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- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
Except for the fact that anyone will tell you that not all schools of martial arts teach the same thing...
Actually...again my point applies to this...Look at Blaziken's claws really fast...then look at Infernape hands...
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:257Blaziken.png
http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/f/fb/392Infernape.png
Tell me which one of those looks like they could "smack someone more" and which one of those looks like they could cut more?
I mean...when you say Blaziken can't learn fury swipes...did you even look at the type of swipes he did learn?
I mean lets look at the moves these things learn that could clearly be performed by their hands:
Infernape
Brick Break
Fire Punch
Focus Punch
Fury Swipes
Mach Punch
Poison Jab
Scratch
Shadow Claw
Thunder Punch
Blaziken
Brick Break
Crush Claw*
Fire Punch
Fury Cutter*
Focus Punch
Mega Punch
Night Slash*
Poison Jab
Scratch
Shadow Claw
Sky Uppercut
Slash*
Thunder Punch
I hope I'm not the only one who can see the clear diference in what they use and why...
Actually...that fact still on natural limits and talent only backs up my claim about Ness/Lucas and how they have no real set backs to it compared to what they do...
I'm not trying to pass up "the lag" of moves as gimick/for show...
Where you not here when I brought up the fact that in one battle round you can attack with a stick/bat 1-16 times, heal one person or a full group, blow up a group of foes with a light show PK attack, eat a cookie, eat a steak dinner with sides of peas, mash potatoes and gravy, whatever else is seen there, light up a bomb and detonate it, OR whatever else comes to you mind?
My point is...we have no clear hint at how long PK moves/other things take to perform...because they can all be done in the same game...
The Mother series didn't care about "time" it takes for a turn...they didn't do a casting time game mech like for example certain other games did (FF8 and how long it takes to summon for example)
GameFAQs has a nice one...keep in mind that there are some differences between that one though and the translation that was done by Starmen.net
http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/914622/42740
You know...the translation is different because of language barriers...which sort of has been one of my points with the simple fact that errors are easy to make...but whatever...
If you need a game script for EB…Starmen.net has one…and GameFAQs has one as well…
Yeah...it's the only move Ness learns by watching in game...but who cares...Ness is considered a master of using PK...according to Nintendo...
PK can still be freely taught to others if they have the natural skill to learn it...it's done with that in range of starstorm to teleport...and they seem to be done almost in an instant as well I might add…
Loid, Teddy, Jeff, Duster, Boney, and a ton of NPCs like Porky all prove my point that PSI isn’t easy to learn…for one…you have to have the natural talent in order to be able to use it in the 1st place…which btw said natural talent seems to be present at birth…
So…the fact that a monkey can learn some sort of PSI just shows that the stuff isn’t limited to only humans…it’s just saying that psychic talent can show up anywhere…
Of course…again it’s only proving my point with Ness/Lucas more and their stuff…because again…they have both natural talent and shows signs of learning easily…
Oh btw…about your part where you only highlighted things that suit you with speed and time needed…you are aware that something like that is only game mechs. if anything…the game says it is done in an instant…but…the game also explains the rules for how the move works for play…
BTW… Why don’t you read this if you don’t get my point about translation errors from the earlier part of the argument?
http://earthboundcentral.com/m2eb/monkey-caves/
Well you could argue that Ness/Lucas are small for their age and it is shown (which is why I gave a range of heights/weights you know...which would still be out of range of Kirby and him with easy street suck...I don't agree with your range of what they are...but they would still be out of Kirby's easy suck street with it)
A lot of it has to do with the games art style...
You know...because each of these games happens to have different art styles...I mean...they are cartoon like graphics...
Actually...I don't even know why I'm arguing with you about Ness/Lucas' size in the 1st place...just because they start off small doesn't mean they end small...the game gives several hints about how Ness/Lucas "grow" in more ways than one...
justaway12
Smash Master
She did, I'm talking about before the pure hearts, when she fought the invincble Count Bleck
...That's my point...
...Where has anybody had a regular defence that didn't harm him/her at all? Not a special defence, just natural defence.
...That was my point, why are we still arguing about the parasol?
Once again you completly missed my point, PK fire isn't the only illogiocal thing that happenend, again the fact it appeared on screen was because they didn't show they're face, it also isn't the only illogical fire, as I pointed out in my last quote.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
The whole point of you fighting Dimentio before you make him open is to show you that all hope is lost...so...it doesn't really matter that she could guard his physical attacks...hell...he even admits to just wanting to toy with other characters before he kills them:
So if anything...he was just screwing around with them watching them struggle on purpose...
I mean...it's not like he couldn't have just killed them right away if he wanted to...he only sent them "alive" to the land of the dead at one point...boy...I sure do like how Peach was able to block that huh?
So…where is the proof that it would guard vs. everything Ness has again? It’s just a guard you know…
Performing a “perfect guard” in PM:TTYD for one thing…plus the logical meaning behind what Peach is doing in the 1st place says that the only reason Peach isn’t taking damage is because she is using the parasol…
What do you think is easier to do…block something with your fists or with an object holding back the force anyway?
Newton’s 3rd law seems to be the reason for why Peach isn’t truly getting hurt…
Um…because you think it is an invincible guard or something like that…when it is really is just Peach parrying things with said parasol…
God...It's pretty much the same idea with Link and him using a shield...
Again…Bowser has reasons for his fire …and Mario has always had help with his fire…there are more things than just a fire flower you know…”Fire Brand” comes to mind…
PK Fire (or just PK…sense you don’t seem to get it…I’m talking about PK in general and am only using PK Fire as a reference) is really the only illogical one though…it’s the only one out of this w/o meaning behind it…
justaway12
Smash Master
I meant Count Bleck
Again, A guard no enemy could get past, where is you proof he can go through it, it's obviously more powerful than a normal guard.
But she isn't preforming a perfect guard, she is just guarding...
Yes, my whole point, she parrys everything, whats your point?
Mario in SMRPG didn't have any thing to help him, again, not just Mario, you really think PK is the only unexplainable thing in video games?
Diddy Kong
Smash Obsessed
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- 26,314
- Switch FC
- SW-1597-979602774
_Clinton, you realise that like nobody is agreeing with you here?
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
Count Bleck was never invincible with Peach...the pure hearts screwed his power away...
Again, the fact the no enemy getting past it is just a game mech. like you said...it is only Peach's "special skill" it is to "serve a purpose" for the game...
Looking at the logic...All the evidence points towards the simple fact that it is just a parasol that she is parrying with...and again...
If the only thing Peach is doing is hiding under a parasol...and Ness couldn't break it...which is BS...he has a world+ altering power...as in pretty much the same thing the chaos heart was:
Then she still loses...because she is officially just stalling the match
Again...in that game there is no "other" guard commands...
Plus...again...the type of game it is in the 1st place is the reason for why it works...
Flower points...plus in that game anyway Mario's moves are more or less symbols (sort of like SSB for example and how he has said moves w/o power ups)
No...of course not...besides other extreme things like paranormal activity though and whatever else eventually comes to mind...PK really is one of the only "true things" that doesn't have a true meaning behind it working...in this area and "in real life"
No one fully agrees with anyone here 100% in case you haven't noticed that...
PowerBomb
Smash Master
_clinton, Sandshrew learns Fury Swipes. Wait, look at its arms and fingers! Short arms and clawed fingers. Kind of like Blaziken, huh?
Anyone will tell me there's different fighting styles? Not what I was asking; I was asking if Blaziken and Infernape could be proven, in-game, with actual evidence, that they use different fighting styles.
Who cares about the analogy's differences, it's just an example to say why they don't learn PK Fire and stuff.
@Diddy Kong: _clinton is like the guy in a zombie movie where all of the zombies are swarming up to him and he has no shotgun.
Anyone will tell me there's different fighting styles? Not what I was asking; I was asking if Blaziken and Infernape could be proven, in-game, with actual evidence, that they use different fighting styles.
Who cares about the analogy's differences, it's just an example to say why they don't learn PK Fire and stuff.
@Diddy Kong: _clinton is like the guy in a zombie movie where all of the zombies are swarming up to him and he has no shotgun.
_clinton
Smash Master
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- 3,189
Not really...besides...I don't think the actual name of the moves really accounts for anything in the 1st place...you know...because so many moves have such great sounding names that mean so much...like Brave Bird...
So...do you think Hariyama and Medichan use the same fighting style?
Or how about Machamp...I'm pretty sure that Blaziken and Infernape have learned how to fight with 4 arms huh?
Plus...I'm pretty sure a chicken and a monkey fight in the same ways huh?
I care about the analogy being used because it is a bad one to describe what PK is anyway...
I like how you think there are 50 types of the same exact thing...
God...I like how Poo's Freeze Alpha costs more PP than Paula's freeze alpha...oh wait it doesn't...
mmmmmm...PSI Brain.
The only time I remember PSI being outside of battle was when Kumatora attack Duster when they first met. I think that was PSI Ice. She missed.
Ness/Lucas probably could learn PSI Fire, but didn't have a teacher for that. For some reason their female party members saw it not being necessary. Since no one here wants to give them attacks that never have in the games they are not gong to have them.
Bomb Kirby goes BOOOM.
The only time I remember PSI being outside of battle was when Kumatora attack Duster when they first met. I think that was PSI Ice. She missed.
Ness/Lucas probably could learn PSI Fire, but didn't have a teacher for that. For some reason their female party members saw it not being necessary. Since no one here wants to give them attacks that never have in the games they are not gong to have them.
Bomb Kirby goes BOOOM.
justaway12
Smash Master
Right, I checked the video, it guess only Mario fought him
So I guess Bowser's and Luigi's are the same =/
You..you weren't paying attention to the description very well, were you?
I know it's a guard, everyone knows it's a guard, that really isn't a point, it's what the guard does.
Plus again, it still shows
Is it reeally that hard to get the point? Anyway, don't Ness and Lucas have PP?
Ness and Lucas aren't that special, even realistic games ike MGS has unlimited ammo right?
Justaway12, I'm impressed you've been able to keep up this long with _clinton, but you gotta understand, man...
... He only sees what he wants to see. Just give up and ignore him, and let's get this thread back on the rails. We've been taking forever on matches at hand and discussiong Ness' and Lucas' supposedly undefeatable selves. >_____>
... He only sees what he wants to see. Just give up and ignore him, and let's get this thread back on the rails. We've been taking forever on matches at hand and discussiong Ness' and Lucas' supposedly undefeatable selves. >_____>
_clinton
Smash Master
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Kumatora sort of had her leg caught in a “bear trap” in all fairness…plus that seems more like it was a warning shot anyway…
But like I said before...you never actually see these characters truly fight in any physical form...the best view you have for their abilities is based off a made up role...I say made up because there is plenty of proof out there that shows them using powers outside of battle that they don't have inside of battle...
Yet…people are ok with allowing someone like Diddy Kong use his instrument with his Going Bananas even though he has never shown any proof to using them…out of good faith that he would be able to…I still want to know how that is different than what I’m saying?
The issue with this is that they are saying they have to hide because the other has things that cancel the other out…which isn’t true…Peach is the only one who has to hide…I don’t see her having **** that Ness’ power shield couldn’t deal with…
Plus…looking at the guard…It’s a guard for physical attacks…which is just fine and dandy…but…PK isn’t physical…like I said before…you need a special type of barrier just to defend vs. PK attacks…and in this case…you’d better…because PK Love/Rockin pretty much wrecks everything…as in no natural resistance to it…
Which is more or less a game mech.
Because in a "real world" setting...that wouldn't be true...
I like how you think insulting the person you were debating with and then shutting them out is a good debate tactic …ironically for this situation, I’ve never said I was 100% right…I’m merely only giving my opinion on various things that I don’t agree with and why…in truth you seem to be thinking your 100% right in these…
I wonder what is up with that?
justaway12
Smash Master
I might soon, but I'll let this go on for just a little longer, no offence, _clinton, I'm just tired of talking about the two mother boys for now, I'm sure you feel the same way.
Has he been shown using it both? I mean, Ness could use PK fire and another PK, that he had.
...Her vibe spector, and I think Viper said
she could weaken anybody with her magic wand in M&L RPG
I REALLLLLY want to play that game =/
In earthbound. In here, even with magic, she could still defend from it.
Exactly, but the thing is, MGS isn't real world.
The thing is, Mario's FP is like Ness' PP when he uses an attack, right?
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
Next MU.
Vs.
Current Match-Up:
THE HERO OF WIND Vs. THE MASKED STRANGER
Toonlink Vs. Metaknight
Vs.
Loser's Round 4, Match 7.
Who will emerge victorious?
Overall Results
Wins +4:
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Wins +3:
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:mewtwo:,
Wins +1:
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Neutral:
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, , ,
Loss -1:
Loss -2:
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ichu:, , 
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Loss -5:
,
Current Match-Up:
THE HERO OF WIND Vs. THE MASKED STRANGER
Toonlink Vs. Metaknight
Vs. Loser's Round 4, Match 7.
Who will emerge victorious?
Overall Results
Wins +4:
, , Wins +3:
, , , Wins +2:
:mewtwo:,
Wins +1:
, , , , , , , Neutral:
, , , , , , , , Loss -1:
Loss -2:
, , , ichu:, , , , Loss -3:
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Loss -5:
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I'm not the only one, and I wasn't just blindly insulting. I used the words in their proper context. Choose whichever you like, but keep in mind that I used it in proper context.
You don't need to say that you're 100% right in order to insinuate others are wrong.
Taking that by what it meant, let's see... You said that all the participants of this thread don't care about debating properly in accordance to your views of how the thread is supposed to work, when in reality we've been doing things OUR way from the beginning. You are now trying to bend things to fit your needs, with the sole goal of making Ness and Lucas the ultimate victors, as well as undermine other characters' inherent traits (such as Samus' invincibility while Speed Boosting, and Peach's parasol guard), when this thread says TRUE TO THEIR GAMES, meaning that no amount of assumptions and/or deductions will give characters more than what the game gives them, or less than what the game gave them. You can't deny that you are doing this, it is the reason why so many people stop talking back to you.
While debating with justaway12, you seem to be "worming" around what he's asking you, in order to find ways to let your own opinions remain intact while debunking his. This would be fine in a normal debate, until you notice (which you failed to do) that you are misinterpreting justaway12's points, as well as misreading them time and again. If you are doing this on purpose to emerge victorious, then you are a failure of a debater; if not, then come on, man! Man up to your mistakes and say "whoops, my mistake, please explain to me more clearly" rather than blindly argue to what you don't understand. We're not supposed to keep rephrasing what we say unless you clearly state that you don't understand us: it's both a waste of our time, as well as yours. And when you add in the factor that you just don't want to lose so you play around with things that benefit the Mother boys but not anyone else due to THEIR game mechanics not being present in all the others' games (like turn-based moves beind instantaneous due to Ness/Lucas's opponents not doing anything until you finish up your move), it becomes an enormous pain to talk to you and have 'fun' in this debate that's solely for having 'fun'.
And no, I never think I'm always right. However, I always try and keep an open mind. Want some examples?
All are proof that I always keep an open mind to corrections when I might be wrong. And I do let myself get corrected. I don't "play with my words" like a puzzle to see if it can fit and break the opposing side's arguments, and I don't say "it's a game mechanic" when I lose.Why would Samus need the Phazon beam? What's wrong with the Hyper Beam, which is also fueled by phazon?
OH, AND... MK wins this one. TL can't do anything to MK's ship.
The teleporting part is instant but similar to Samus, Ness has to run to activate that (beta runs in circles). That is the long start up time I am talking about. Besides that only takes you to other towns and is not used in fighting.
Diddy and other characters can use abilities from other games because it is assumed that they remember how to do it. Ness only has one game to base all his abilities off of (if we got Mother 64 that might have been different). As powerful as he is some characters get the broken ability of being invincible he does not get that luxury.
If we are going to be true to everyone's game shouldn't Kirby be allowed to copy other people's ability? That his is base abilitiy right there (right after a bottom-less stomach).
Diddy and other characters can use abilities from other games because it is assumed that they remember how to do it. Ness only has one game to base all his abilities off of (if we got Mother 64 that might have been different). As powerful as he is some characters get the broken ability of being invincible he does not get that luxury.
If we are going to be true to everyone's game shouldn't Kirby be allowed to copy other people's ability? That his is base abilitiy right there (right after a bottom-less stomach).
Kirby COULD copy opponents' abilities, but they would have to be abilities that appear on his games, and not abilities that we create right here. We'd all have to agree on what power Kirby would copy, though.
JOE!
Smash Hero
wait, why are ships and other vehicles allowed?
isnt this just overkill with people like samus?
isnt this just overkill with people like samus?
Samochan
Smash Master
Vehicles are still possessions of the characters, like items are and can be used in a match. We'd see many many problems if Falcon couldn't drive his Blue falcon for example, as he hasn't ever performed outside it within his games. Fox, Wolf & Falco would lose a very important and useful tool as well.
Besides her ship isn't too broken, she has to call it via her command visor to either missile stuff or grapple, she's not soo useful inside it since we dunno how the ship's other armanents work out. However, funnily enough, she's a lot more deadly outside her ship than inside.
It doesn't matter if it's overkill, only true to their games matters.
Iirc, Link can only port to certain positions on the Great sea, which is done by cyclones. Might be plausible, but he cannot port inside it as it needs the cyclone and open air.
I don't think TL is able to travel on top of that ship as he needs deku leaf to fly around, but the winds buffet every which way cause the ship is moving at high speeds. I dunno how the wind waker could turn it around but even if he could, he'd face the problem of dealing with Combo cannon and it's lasers, pulse laser and bombs.
I'm still wondering how it should actually work out that kirby is supposedly 20cm tall, but then he's normal size in contrast to his whole world. If he were just small for his size, he'd be really small in contrast. So going by completely ingame evidence, kirby would be a lot bigger here. So basically, it's the kirby universe that's very very small, unlike that of Olimar's who is shown to be very small compared to his environment. The question is, would that size difference actually transfer to a neutral battlefield if it's just his universe that is small? Not only it would make sense, but alleviate this problem where meta becomes broken when no one small enough can't even enter his ship and therefore unable to destroy it, with the hallways being 20cm high. <_<
JOE!
Smash Hero
doesnt starfox crew have a plethora of weapons from Star Fox assault, and Star Fox adventures (Fox only)?
Samochan
Smash Master
It would really, really hurt their performance nevertheless. Their arwings & landmasters are really good in this, yet not broken.
Nothing wrong in using vehicles just as everyone uses items and tools and other type of equipment. They still belong to said characters who use em.
JOE!
Smash Hero
so wait, why isnt MK higher if he has a giant air ship?
WhatIsRaizen?
Smash Ace
JOE!
Smash Hero
he's neutral
Ganonsburg
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2009
- Messages
- 1,083
Toon Link can call on strong winds such and hurricanes/twisters/whatever, which no ship can fly in. Have you ever seen a movie where there's a strong storm and the airship is just fine? Any game? Not really. So TL can counter the airship with that. As far as on the ground, I'm not sure how MK will do.
Samochan
Smash Master
TL can change the direction of the wind, never seen him summon a large hurricane cept when he teleports around and it seems fairly tame and used for teleporting anyway. <_<
Ganonsburg
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2009
- Messages
- 1,083
Both the power to change the wind direction and teleport using hurricanes comes from deities One of which used much fiercer winds to attack Link initially. And a hurricane is a hurricane. Just because it's a "tame" hurricane doesn't make it any better to fly in (topical storms even cause enough problems to keep people from flying.)