Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[JOE!]

There's no such thing as "opposite of pressure." Because there's pressure little (not "no") in space, the pressure pushes on your skin (and muscles and bones; everything holding you together) and makes you explode. Space doesn't "pull you apart."

This means if your body is strong enough (via blessing, magic, armor, etc), you could actually survive. I'm sure Ganon could. Super Sonic probably could too. Samus has armor built out of strong enough materials to protect her. Bowser probably could survive. So on, so on (although I'm not counting for lack of oxygen).

So pretty much the people who could survive space are the people who are already invincible. Shocker.

well you know what I meant, but anywho, invulnerable people asid,e how would Ike deal with no air? Are his lungs blessed?

also, Raizen, are you gonna take into account old matches should be changed due to new rules?

 

[missingnomaster]

I think people are gonna have to bring old matchups up themselves if they feel they should be changed. Raizen himself doesn't get involved in the debates very often.

 

[Kewkky]

There's no such thing as "opposite of pressure." Because there's pressure little (not "no") in space, the pressure pushes on your skin (and muscles and bones; everything holding you together) and makes you explode. Space doesn't "pull you apart."

Actually, space DOES pull you apart, but at the same time doesn't actually "pull" you...

Pressure is influenced by four factors: mass (one pound applies less pressure than one ton), temperature (the more you heat up something, the more it expands due to the microscopic particles' behavior when given lots of energy), a constant (known as "R", whose numerical value never changes), and volume (While the volume increases, in order to stop the pressure from decreasing, you have to increase both temperature and mass due to there being a bigger 'container' for the microscopic particles). There is pressure built inside our bodies: a specific number that allows our bodies from not crushing into themselves, or exploding looking for a plase with less pressure to 'leak (balance)' itself into.

Space DOES have pressure, but it cannot be measured either, due to the volume and mass being unknown (no one knows the amount of mass/size of the universe, so we can't come up with a proper number), and without two values, we cannot find out the potency of the pressure out there. -- but it is still an incredibly small value: small enough to affect anything that isn't vacuum-packed (like space suits, space stations, spaceships...) or has a strong-enough gravity (a strong gravitational pull can increase the weight of mass, creating a stronger pressure-like effect the closer we get to where the mass is most concentrated [like the center of our planet]). When our bodies -which have a higher pressure than outer space- exit any 'vacuum-packed containers' or 'atmospheres' and is left with no protection, your pressurized body starts looking for a way to 'leak out' into the area with less pressure, thus creating the "pulling" effect. Unless you have a way to regulate pressure (like a space suit) when you exit one of the before-mentiones safe zones, you are going to be pulled apart.

... Ike doesn't have full-body armor, so he is going to be affected by the pulling pressure of outer space. Still, since Space isn't allowed, not like it matters.


(If I'm wrong with anything I said, please say so, I wouldn't want to be running around spewing faulty info)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ike is no "giant robot" he's a super human. 1 second is enough for Ike to react.

My only plausible example from Fire Emblem is that The Black Knight, survived a castle collapsing on top of him wearing blessed armor. I figure if the Black Knight can survive being crushed by a castle, Ike can survive the crushing pressures of Space....

Most likely, the Black Knight used his Warp Powder to escape the castle... Either way, in this "neutral" battlefield there wouldn't be any space, or a sun. I think warping characters to other spaces should be banned as well.

Besides, Ike would most likely still get hurt by many different things. His fellow Fire Emblem heroes can hurt him for example, though they'll never win. Link will beat Ike, most likely. Toon Link maybe. What about legendary Pokemon..? Laguz Kings could hurt Ike. Dunno if Deginshea (the Dragon King) got blessed, but he could hurt Ike, as well as normal dragon laguz. Kirby might damage Ike, and maybe Donkey Kong even?

 

[justaway12]

Why is everyone arguing about the old match-ups? Did raizen say he was going to re-do them at the end?

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

@Joe: Yeah, I'm just mainly here to compile everyone's opinions/debates together (which I do read of course, lol).

and I update old match-ups anytime I can.

I'll be redoing all match-ups once we get close to the finals as well (as one).

 

[Ussi]

simple way to explain pressure: pressured is exherted onto our body. Our body pushes back on that pressure equally. The body can't adjust to pressure change quickly so when the the pressure pushing on th body suddenly decreases greatly, the body still pushing back the old pressure results in the body explodng.



And since space isn't allowed Sonic just runs out of rings then just tales one hit from Ike.

 

[missingnomaster]

Or Sonic could just warp Ike so deep underground that he can't escape and suffocates that way.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I wanna see vids of Sonic warping enemies to the sun, to space and deep underground nao. <_<

 

[missingnomaster]

He used Chaos Control to warp some giant Ark thingy, but I don't know much about it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Seems like a Sonic-favorited version of _clinton's Mother 3 favorism. So far, I'm not buying any of this.

 

[Ussi]

Super sonic and Shadow wrapped the ark that was falling through the earth's atmosphere back to it's orginal place. Course Shadow then died for being super too long.


Still Wrapping underground doesn't sound possible. Also thought chaos control was letting you slow down time (think the movie clockstoppers)

 

[Ekul]

simple way to explain pressure: pressured is exherted onto our body. Our body pushes back on that pressure equally. The body can't adjust to pressure change quickly so when the the pressure pushing on th body suddenly decreases greatly, the body still pushing back the old pressure results in the body explodng.



And since space isn't allowed Sonic just runs out of rings then just tales one hit from Ike.

Space doesn't work that way

Sorry. Next you'll try to convince us space can transfer heat out of people.

 

[PowerBomb]

I can't recall where it was said Dialga can't travel back in time without expending too much energy, though it makes sense. He's one huge pokemon and it might be much much easier to port someone else or just manipulate than to control time & travel through it at the same time. However if you're refering to Primal Dialga below, which Dusknoir speaks of...

"Primal Dialga is actually a Dialga that lost control over its ability to control time due to the collapse of the Temporal Tower and changed to this form. In this form, it is also incapable of logical reasoning or showing mercy, only seeking self-preservation and preventing time from flowing properly.

Although Primal Dialga has lost control of its power, it can still warp through time and use its signature move Roar of Time. "

PMD: Explorers of Sky, special Grovyle episode. Pretty cool episode if you ask me.

EDIT: Don't the Ing use psionics? Their lasers were like...something strange.

 

[warpd]

Have you looked at the stats for a frightbot and what the sound it makes it like?

It sounds a lot like the same idea for it that mike Kirby has in his attacks…

Also…where is the logic behind saying that mike will make Lucas suddenly not be able to perform PK moves anyway…



And Lucas has shields as well…how about that?



Lucas’ attack PSI uses up a lot of PP because of its power…and considering how at the end of the game Lucas pretty much A. can beat Kumatora in PP amount, B. PK Starstorm is Kumatora’s best move overall…yet Rockin/Love beats it

That should tell you how Lucas becomes sort of a multi role party member of the team (who is good at all of them I might add) Duster, Kumatora, and Boney are around and have their strengths still…but in the end if anything…they are support for Lucas…which is pretty much the same thing that happened with Ness…

Lucas has to put up a shield that take only 3 hits and only covers 50% damage. Kirby's shield is instant, requires no energy, and pretty much stops 99% of the attack if not all of it.

Mike Kirby is far stronger than frightbot. That thing can only tell scary stories in a reallllllly annoying way. While Mike Kirby obliterates the whole screen with puffball rage. The idea that Mike attack would prevent Lucas from performing PSI attacks is pretty much an assumption on my part that loud, heavy metal screaming would really make it hard to think much less attack.

Ice Kirby can still solidify Lucas.

...it is hard comparing a turn based character to one that is not.

 

[JOE!]

@Joe: Yeah, I'm just mainly here to compile everyone's opinions/debates together (which I do read of course, lol).

and I update old match-ups anytime I can.

I'll be redoing all match-ups once we get close to the finals as well (as one).

take it from me, it'd be best to do it once this round is over.

If you try Re-dos near then end you will have like 9001 to go over

 

[RWB]

Question. Is Yune's blessing allowed in this on the whole, because that's somewhat of an outer influence?

Then again, without, Ike's chances to win most matchups he's put in becomes zip.

 

[_clinton]

The fact that you haven't backed it up, mean you have no proof.
Well now you do anyway, especially since she stood up to something invincible.

Dude…she didn’t stand up to anything invincible…canon wise the final boss would have won if it wasn’t for the pure hearts…

There is only 1 way to guard

Um…no there isn’t…maybe in that game only…

Yet you still didn't tell me anyone who uses a Parasol as weapon =/

It doesn’t matter…I just pointed out that there are other things that do the same thing as Peach’s parasol…

Yet Peachs guard can't be broken easily, only by two things.

The fact that there is two things that break it and there is no back up info saying it is invincible proves that the guard isn’t perfect…

That should prove that Peach will be having things break into it in other areas…

Yes, I do.

How come no one else has commented about this yet? Or does everyone else here can’t understand what game mechs. are and how logically Pokemon only being able to remember 4 moves is one?

Most people are forgetting kirby's ghost power in Squeak Squad.

And how would that work on Lucas? It’s not like Kirby is the only ghost foe Lucas has fought…

Just to make sure everyone's aware of Mike Kirby, it can not be stopped, blocked, or dodged while on screen unless you have the power to travel to another dimension before he picks up the mic and sing.

I like how you are trying to make it sound better than what the move is...

None of Kirby's foes actually block things in the Kirby games...not even Kirby for 90% of the games...I'm pretty sure it was 1st put in for KSS...in fact I'm pretty sure that the only foe that has blocked an attack in that Kirby game is MK...

Does this mean that they are unable to block attacks? No it doesn't...because helpers are a foe turned ally...and they seem to block stuff just fine...

You've actually got it exactly backwards. Samus has taken things far more impressive than that explosion in Prime without losing her suit. Try getting hit by Mother Brain's Hyper Beam with only the Varia or Power Suit equipped. It does a ton of damage, but Samus doesn't lose any equipment. There's also the Omega Metroid in Fusion that leaves Samus with only one energy tank after an attack before getting the X Suit, yet still no equipment loss.

Canon wise...Mother Brain's hyper beam left Samus ****ed...and she would have died w/o the baby metroid...

The omega metroid also would have killed Samus...

Still...like it or not...Samus has canon wise lost her suit...

I guess you could argue that Samus' defenses aren't really defined...

Seems like a Sonic-favorited version of _clinton's Mother 3 favorism. So far, I'm not buying any of this.

I like how you fail to see how some of the things you have said are ridiculas as well…in fact you have even said that you are biased against Lucas on purpose…but at least with my stuff I have proof for some of it…please explain to me again how the Dragon’s power isn’t Lucas’ when the game says that the power calls him master and even says that their souls are linked? Or how you fail to get that the foes in EB are traveling through time/space freely…or how you don’t get that the series uses a common term for the PK moves which would mean that they are subject to those term’s meanings…

God…the term of “will it work in another universe” is another thing that seems to be avoided as well…

What proof will the invincibility protect in another world…people really need to make a list of the things it protects from naturally already when they talk about invincibility/try to pass things off as invincibility even though they have a logical explanation for why they appear as invincible (Speed Booster again)…

...it is hard comparing a turn based character to one that is not.

Then maybe you shouldn't compare their shields then by their number…you could just describe them as for what they do…Lucas’ shield can be broken by enough punishment…but he can strengthen it and the thing can work as a “mirror” when it comes to punishment…

Oh and I also forgot to point out that Lucas has defense up PSI (well I didn’t...again it was something that was done a bit back)

And as far as frightbot goes...it does more than just tell scary stories...the sound of it itself is described as "like nails on a chalkboard"

How is that not attempting to be used as a weapon? It’s pretty much the same idea as Mike (use sound to cause extreme discomfort in some way)

And Ice Kirby trying to freeze Lucas isn’t much of a deal as well…for one thing…have you tried to freeze larger foes? It takes time…and in Lucas’ case because he has defense vs. Ice/tons of HP/PP…Kirby would be better off with another power…

 

[PowerBomb]

_clinton, the explosion in Metroid Prime 1 is a game mechanic: a story mechanic, if you will. It's there to make sure Samus can actually improve right from the start instead of skipping a lot of things. Like the Ing ambush and the X-parasite infection... Samus gets mauled by everything else in that game and what's this? No equipment lost? She's also been ambushed by another squad of Warrior Ing and what's this? Kinetic attacks, but no equipment lost? Oh right, Emperor Ing... what's this? It charges you and slams down on you with its insanely big tentacles? Oh, Samus obviously lost her equipment...wait, no she didn't.

Nails on a chalkboard? So? Heavy metal screamo into extremely loud speakers (assumed for Kirby) is nearly 120dB. In that range, prolonged listening ensures hearing loss and pain.

EDIT: If this were the old-school Zamus, she might have a chance. But she can't stand six beasts capable of scorching her.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

I rather stick to my way, Joe.

Alright, next MUs.

Vs.

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE CHIMP Vs. THE ROBOT

THE BEAST Vs. THE SYSTEM

Diddy Vs. ROB & Donkey Kong Vs. Game & Watch

Vs.

Vs.

Loser's Round 4, Match 5 & 6.

Who will emerge victorious?

 

[warpd]

Lucas is not big and yes he does have the defense against ice but not the status effects they can inflict. When is going to have time for all this defensive PSI use?

Even without blocking Mike Kirby kills people with his attack. While the frightbot was really just a torture device made out as a joke.

Speaking of size what prevents Kirby from eating Lucas whole? Kirby eats things about the size of a small child.

 

[Kewkky]

How come no one else has commented about this yet? Or does everyone else here can’t understand what game mechs. are and how logically Pokemon only being able to remember 4 moves is one?

I think you are the one who doesn't know when to stop classifying things as "game mechs". The thread's definition of game mechs state what they are, yet you're trying to pass off what make characters what they are as game mechs.

Canon wise...Mother Brain's hyper beam left Samus ****ed...and she would have died w/o the baby metroid...

The omega metroid also would have killed Samus...

Still...like it or not...Samus has canon wise lost her suit...

I guess you could argue that Samus' defenses aren't really defined...

Her shield protects her from enemy attacks, and protects her suit from enemy damage. Once the energy tanks run out, you see her armor explode in the 2D Metroid games... So, in order to reach the armor, you have to take her life force down, which is her many energy tanks and reserve tanks. The Omega Metroid and Mother Brain's special attacks hurt Samus's shield as much as they do because they're powerful, that much is true. But Samus survived them, did she not?

And as far as frightbot goes...it does more than just tell scary stories...the sound of it itself is described as "like nails on a chalkboard"

How is that not attempting to be used as a weapon? It’s pretty much the same idea as Mike (use sound to cause extreme discomfort in some way)

Nails on chalkboard demonstration
Description of noise that can kill you.

They seem like different kind of sounds to me. Kirby's sound attacks gradually get strounger, and the first of the triple Mike combo (in KSS/KSSU) is still capable of OHKOing enemies (as well as causing heavy damage to minibosses). How much damage does the "chalkboard-like sound" do to Lucas?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I like how you fail to see how some of the things you have said are ridiculas as well…

Like? Going Bananas that protects the Kongs against both lava and "bee stings"?

in fact you have even said that you are biased against Lucas on purpose…

Not exactly. I'm against Lucas being on the top of this list for bull**** reasons. I don't want ZOMGAPOLOCLYPSE to be a auto win for Lucas. And it goes again, against the thread's rules.

but at least with my stuff I have proof for some of it…

Some of it yeah. It isn't exactly the best proof there is either. It's all based from Mother 3's vagueness in general.

please explain to me again how the Dragon’s power isn’t Lucas’ when the game says that the power calls him master and even says that their souls are linked?

I'm tired of explaining anything to you. You just keep on saying the same thing over and over again... <_<

Or how you fail to get that the foes in EB are traveling through time/space freely…

Like this!

or how you don’t get that the series uses a common term for the PK moves which would mean that they are subject to those term’s meanings…

Or this.

God…the term of “will it work in another universe” is another thing that seems to be avoided as well…

If the characters are true to their games... then yes.

If Lucas where true to Mother 3, and somehow we all agree of him having the Dragon's power, this is what happens:

Lucas uses the Dragon power > Screen turns black > Credits roll in

<_<

Btw, the Trainer wins this. Ground types would be invurnable to ZSS's stun beam, which might be electric based. She'll never make it past the Pokemon to kill the Trainer.

EDIT: Match up's done already? Well alright.

The Kongs win this. R.O.B cannot do ****, neither can Mr.Game & Watch. Diddy would casually break R.O.B without ease, or takes it home to his treehouse to play with it. DK would break no sweat by defeating G&W. A few punches and the flat guy would be gone. Anything G&W might have, DK can simply ignore with Going Bananas or brute strenght.

 

[_clinton]

_clinton, the explosion in Metroid Prime 1 is a game mechanic: a story mechanic, if you will.

Funny...a lot of the things talked about have been the results of story mechanics as well (Pray on Giygas) but you guys still think they count...even after I explained it you guys still wouldn't absorb it...

The point I'm trying to make in the 1st place is that Samus can lose weapons in some way...I really don't care how...I only care about the end...

Nails on a chalkboard? So? Heavy metal screamo into extremely loud speakers (assumed for Kirby) is nearly 120dB. In that range, prolonged listening ensures hearing loss and pain.

A. Nails on a chalkboard was a description for what it sounded like...it wasn't actually that...

Plus...like I said before...I'm pretty sure a power shield is going to protect from mike anyway...

 

[warpd]

Ummmm _clinton do you think Lucas has all his PSI defenses on when before the battle starts? True to his game he has to make a shield when the battle starts. Lucas would not be fast enough to make any defense before pink screaming death metal fills his mind.

 

[Crystanium]

This is what it was before November 29th, as in before this debate about it:
http://metroid.wikia.com/index.php?title=Speed_Booster&oldid=49365

Before it became this on November 29th:
http://metroid.wikia.com/index.php?title=Speed_Booster&oldid=61842

June 16th 2009 to November 29th was the time frames in between those updates…
We have been arguing about this thing for more than 10 days…
God…I think I brought up the manuals for the 1st time on post #7430 which happened on November 28th…
But I’m pretty sure it could have been earlier and even brought up by someone else…
So…why was only one thing changed about the article?

I'm sorry. That was all me. I haven't been debating in this thread, because I have been too busy in life. Anyway, I was the one who added the whole invincible part, at Wikitroid which is strange, because in the past when I wrote about Samus running at Mach 4 in one second, I left out the part about Samus being invincible. (Yes, I am Metroid Fan at Wikitroid.) I suppose it had to do with the fact that I was so utterly amazed that Samus could run a mile in one second. The addition to Wikitroid had nothing to do with this thread or supporting Samus being invincible in this debate. I will admit that I was curious to see what the Wikitroid article had to say about the Speed Booster, and when I saw it missing information, I added more.

 

[JOE!]

im telling you raizen, it'll be tedious..you'll have to re-do the entire rankings per match, etc.

also, this is no kongtest...if it lasts beyond this page ill be a sad panda

 

[PowerBomb]

ohaithar Dryn.

Funny...a lot of the things talked about have been the results of story mechanics as well (Pray on Giygas) but you guys still think they count...even after I explained it you guys still wouldn't absorb it...

The point I'm trying to make in the 1st place is that Samus can lose weapons in some way...I really don't care how...I only care about the end...

The difference is that this was a cutscene.

And if the sound is 'like' nails on a chalkboard, than they should have similar dB ranges. Nails on a chalkboard is NOT THAT BAD.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well, Logically speaking, Sonic needs air of some sort since he DROWNS in his own game, but since Sonic breathes in space, so Sonic's space isn't really like our space thus allowing life to breathe there... Sonic won't warp to another "space" since he only knows his universe

Sonic Unleashed says hi. WHen Eggman drops Sonic out of the ship, lo and behold, a vacuum effect occurs. He also travels in space in Super form.
Let alone hyper form takes care of drowning.

also...there aren't any signs of Ike needing to breathe in Fire Emblem, there was a battle in the sky (up in the clouds) where normally people would not be able to breathe easy enough to fight there.

It means he is super human, not that he cant breath.
You would need to be in the stratosphere.

y

as for air, Sonic was never in outer-space, he was at the space-staton which probably had some air-bubble around it. As super sonic he doesnt need to breathe.

Again Sonic Unleashed, as well as Sonic 2 and 3.
Ark didn't have an air bubble and it certainly did not have gravity considering his location during the battle with the biolizard in space.

 

[_clinton]

Lucas is not big and yes he does have the defense against ice but not the status effects they can inflict. When is going to have time for all this defensive PSI use?

Dude...the ice only starts to freeze the other foe when they are out of HP...and why wouldn't Lucas be putting up all of his defensive PSI 1st anyway? Stat wise speaking from a logical use he has time to be putting up PSI and so on when several people are trying to shoot him at one time...so how is he going to struggle with PSI use when there is only one target to worry about?

Speaking of size what prevents Kirby from eating Lucas whole? Kirby eats things about the size of a small child.

Kirby is 20 centimeters tall...he has an easy time eating things around his own size...just something that is about 2x his size he has a very hard time with eating (mini-bosses for example aren't the only things)...and considering how the Mother series main characters are considered kids who have just started to enter their teen years...I'm pretty sure they hit that roll...so...looking at an average 13 year old...

Height...155 cms with a range of 134 - 175 cms
Weight...43 kg said range is 28 - 75 kg (93 lbs rounded up or so if you need this)

I think you are the one who doesn't know when to stop classifying things as "game mechs". The thread's definition of game mechs state what they are, yet you're trying to pass off what make characters what they are as game mechs.

K...let us look...

Game mechanics (If something is described about a certain character in his or her game that isn't ridiculous [like Pokedex entries], then it is a true fact about said character. If something as stupid as, let's say, Link shoots an arrow towards the sun, the arrow then returns as a fire arrow, this becomes a game mechanic because nothing was said that describes so.

How is Link getting the fire arrow a game mech again?

Her shield protects her from enemy attacks, and protects her suit from enemy damage.

Already talked about this…but I’m still waiting for your reply on how the last post I addressed to you earlier today…

They seem like different kind of sounds to me.

Already talked about this and Mike…

Like? Going Bananas that protects the Kongs against both lava and "bee stings"?

I actually talked about this in another post…my point for that was that the Kongs have no proof that they would be able to take a speeding bullet car, just because of what they take…

Not exactly. I'm against Lucas being on the top of this list for bull**** reasons. I don't want ZOMGAPOLOCLYPSE to be a auto win for Lucas. And it goes again, against the thread's rules.

Again…the dragon’s power is no worse than the triforce parts for rules…hell…it’s even more fair…because I’ve already pointed out that the power is linked to Lucas like 90 times…unlike with the triforce…which is a sentient 1st come 1st serve power…

Some of it yeah. It isn't exactly the best proof there is either. It's all based from Mother 3's vagueness in general.

How the how is Mother 3 vague just because you say so?

There are walls of text talking about the dark dragon…and it is the primary focus for the 2 longest chapters in the game…and even gives proof to stuff that happened in Mother 2…if all the info about the dragon was in chapter 4 of Mother 3…than I would agree that it is vague…but it isn’t…let’s look at some skills that are really vague…

Going bananas-there is only 1 sentence that talks about it in the one game it is from…
Speed Booster-there are only 3 sentences about it in total with all the games out there…at least they give info about a logical description behind it and in turn that logical description gives info about how Samus can run right through things without slowing down (yet people would still rather pass it off as invincibility)

Like this!

I keep on saying them because you on avoiding things said in the game like this:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588301/34560

(Poo)
'(Poo read the Hieroglyphs!)
'"To fight against invaders, we built this pyramid fortress.
'However, our efforts were futile, and we lost.
'Nonetheless, our pyramid was protected by the gods of Scaraba.
'The invaders will be reborn every millenium and will attack again.
'Even now, the invaders hide beyond space and time and build their evil
stronghold.
'A place out of time is beyond the Dark, and is even farther beyond the Lost
Underworld.

Or this.

The fact that the PK skills in EB are listed with three/four types only further goes to prove my point though that they accept the “umbrella term” for PK skills…

How is that hard to get?

If Lucas where true to Mother 3, and somehow we all agree of him having the Dragon's power, this is what happens:

The point is…if you aren’t letting Lucas have the power of the earth…then you aren’t even going by the basics of the what the thread says it is going by…how about that?

Plus…considering how PK Love/Rockin has a description for what it is and is “the reason for the dragon’s power”

Logically…for how it is talked about (being able to change the world and so on) the dragon’s power is just logically very (very) high leveled PK…and considering how PK at a high level is widely seen in other fictions besides the Mother series as “god power” anyway…and is even described as such…

I hardly see how it is vague…psychokinesis in general is pretty much seen to change matter.

It’s pretty common…so I hardly see there being a lack of info…based off the stuff…

I hardly see this stuff in Mother 3 based off what is said about it as “wishing” as well I might add…

Ummmm _clinton do you think Lucas has all his PSI defenses on when before the battle starts? True to his game he has to make a shield when the battle starts. Lucas would not be fast enough to make any defense before pink screaming death metal fills his mind.

I like how the same is with Kirby actually…how does he have his powers at the start again of something?

Oh and how do you think Kirby is faster than Lucas’ Shield? The moment Lucas thinks it…is the moment the shield comes up anyway…

The difference is that this was a cutscene.

Which is the same for how this happened with Samus...it was a cutscene as well...

And if the sound is 'like' nails on a chalkboard, than they should have similar dB ranges. Nails on a chalkboard is NOT THAT BAD.

Again...it was only a description...for something that people do find in common as an in this case for something unpleasant sounding...and I'm aware that nails on a chalkboard isn't that bad...the sound of someone vomiting is far worse...

Still...Saying it sounds like nails on a chalkboard is a lot easier to get across for what you mean AND to give a measure for it than to say it sounds like a baby crying or how someone is throwing up...

 

[PowerBomb]

Which is the same for how this happened with Samus...it was a cutscene as well...

Excuse me then, didn't know the whole prayer thing was a cutscene. I have no played EB before, only Mother 3.

The Fire Arrow itself isn't a game mechanic, it's the way it's obtained.

EDIT: In the game, Lucas doesn't get it like "that". It actually takes a second or two to come up.

 

[ShadowLink84]

And since space isn't allowed Sonic just runs out of rings then just tales one hit from Ike.[/COLOR]

Cause Sonic TOTALLY is NOT faster than Ike.
*eyeroll here*
He moves at hyper Sonic speeds.
Ike does not.
Sonic cross 50 yards in under .14 seconds moving at the speed of sound.
He can go to top speed in under a second (3000MPH in Sonic Unleashed, Hyper speeds are higher), want me to calculate it?

I wanna see vids of Sonic warping enemies to the sun, to space and deep underground nao. <_<

Shadow warped to Space Colony Ark all the way from the plante.
Two chaos emeralds let you transcend space and time.

Seems like a Sonic-favorited version of _clinton's Mother 3 favorism. So far, I'm not buying any of this.

If you dont know it, question it, dont play the fanboy card.

 

[_clinton]

EDIT: In the game, Lucas doesn't get it like "that". It actually takes a second or two to come up.

And in that second or two to come up...what else is happening in that fight?

That is "Lucas' turn" in case you don't get it...when he puts it on...

Hell...the animation itself seems kind of pointless and was just put in for "special affect"

Cause Sonic TOTALLY is NOT faster than Ike.
*eyeroll here*
He moves at hyper Sonic speeds.
Ike does not.
Sonic cross 50 yards in under .14 seconds moving at the speed of sound.
He can go to top speed in under a second (3000MPH in Sonic Unleashed, Hyper speeds are higher), want me to calculate it?

Careful mate...this thread already has shown that they don't seem to care about the logical meanings behind where the moves come from...

Fun fact...I'm pretty sure being smacked by Sonic at his top speed would be like getting hit by a semi-truck ramming you at around over 100 MPH...

 

[PowerBomb]

So we don't care about the logical meanings where moves come from because we don't agree with what your saying about Lucas and Ness?

 

[Kewkky]

Careful mate...this thread already has shown that they don't seem to care about the logical meanings behind where the moves come from...

Clinton, you are an idiot. You don't know how to debate, you just change the words around of what statements you make that we disprove. If you don't understand why I'm not answering any of your """"arguments"""", it's because I got tired of the amount of crap typed in by you into this thread. I'm just going to do like I did with GaleKill: ignore you until you go away, feeling 'victorious' that you beat us all.

You take the fun out of what this thread is supposed to be by making no sense and aiming to win, without finding any compromise nor letting yourself be corrected by others when clearly you are wrong. And no, I am not going to point out your mistakes because talking to you raises my blood pressure by itself.

 

[warpd]

In every fight Lucas has to create a shield for that fight and that does take time to create. Kirby carries his abilities with him and carry special items in his belly (like invincibility). Kirby can also change his abilities instantaneously switching between offensive and defensive abilities when needed.

Also for Sonic, when he boosts into a robot they go flying...far. Robots and Ike probably weigh about the same. Ike might not get hurt, but he won't be landing anytime soon.

 

[_clinton]

So we don't care about the logical meanings where moves come from because we don't agree with what your saying about Lucas and Ness?

Explain to me how...if you can perform TK...you can't perform PK Fire?

Please explain to me how a psychic who learns psychic powers just from watching them be done in front of him (Ness and how he learned teleport) still won't be able to use PK Fire...or how a psychic like Lucas learns psychic powers through very random events and not just seeing them...still won't...

How come Ness fighting foes that happen to be a representation of him (like Ness' Nightmare) and use certain moves Ness doesn't have in battle...isn't proof that the only reason he doesn't have them in battle is because he is stuck in some made up battle role as part of game mechs?

Hell...it only takes a few seconds for a powerful psychic to learn PK skills as well (Kumatora and how she learned Starstorm) and the only PK skill that has a learning limit said to be on it was PK Love/Rockin...Plus...Ness/Lucas are seen as master psychics as well...

However...my favorite thing you guys have denied is dealing with teleport...and how you guys have said that because Ness doesn't use it in battle...he won't use it in this...you guys pretty much seem to think that "turn based" game mechs. are canon examples of how Ness would really fight don't you?

I mean...people have said that the only reason Ness/Lucas that have beat their high speed foes...is because they just stood there and took it when it was Ness'/Lucas' turn (even when I point out the fact that you don't really see the fights...you guys have still said that)...you guys seem to get game mechs. confused with what really happens it seems...hell...you even show it with accepting things for example like rolling HP at the start...now...there is a logical reason for how to explain something like rolling HP...for example...a bullet through your guts won't kill you right away...if you get my point...and that is the idea behind it (in fact according to Itoi...that was it) but still...it wasn't explained...

Also going on...you guys seem to be fair with stacking items from other games together (Diddy using his N64 things with his King of Swing things for example)...even though they show no proof that they could...

You still do it just pretty much out of good faith...with the idea that they could just do it...even though there is no proof...

Do you see how you have done the same thing I'm saying with PK?

Well the logical reason for what PK is seen as an umbrella term for a large amount of skills happens to be the reason for how Ness/Lucas should have enough proof for how they would be able to use PK fire...because Ness/Lucas are seen as masters of their art...AND as beyond gifted psychics according to the games...

Get my points?

In every fight Lucas has to create a shield for that fight and that does take time to create.

Yeah...it takes one battle round to make...and you can make more than one at a time as well...

Now ask yourself this...how much time is one battle round?

In one round...you could simply attack something with a stick/bat, guard, create a vortex of psychic power that blows up on everything, heal one person, heal more than one person, eat a simple cookie, eat a steak meal with all the sides, blow something up, or whatever else I can't think of right now...

Do you get my point...you can't really measure how long it takes for Lucas to do things...we don't really know what is going on...

 

[PowerBomb]

_clinton, I am going to summarize your post in a Pokemon analogy, because everyone understands that.

Let's say I have a Blaziken and an Infernape. They're both 'fire masters', learning the majority of fire-moves and fighting moves as well. However, they don't learn every fire-move or fighting-move. Blaziken can't learn Close Combat, whilst Infernape can. They are both in the same egg group (hence Infernape learning Blaze Kick via egg moves). Now, if Infernape supposedly performed a Close Combat, Blaziken would spontaneously learn and perfect it in that one attack performed against it. Obviously, this is not the case since that doesn't happen in the game.

I could also do an analogy with other Pokemon... such as Meganium and Venasaur, or any Pokemon of a similar shape, typing, and perhaps egg group.

If Lucas/Ness do not learn the moves by examination or anything of the sort, and do not learn them in-game, then they are obviously not supposed to have the move given. No one really cares who or what they are, or how gifted at whatever they are, Lucas/Ness are not learning these moves. They don't learn them in-game, nor have ever been shown to obtain/use them.

And the reason for characters obtaining every item obtained in some of their games is arguable. Usually, they SHOULD keep those items, but lose them for no reason other than to make the next game actually playable instead of "ZOMG ALL ITEMS AT START OF GAME". Samus, for example, loses all of her Power-ups at the start of every new game. All of her weapons have been shown to be compatible anyway, so it doesn't matter for her. Another thing for that is if they are the same person, since obviously not all Link's have the same items. Ganondorf lives who knows how long, so whatever goes to him. Usually barely anything, since he doesn't care.

Someone proof-read that post. I don't type walls, nor do I like them, and if I do ever type a wall, I tend to make stupid mistakes.

 

[warpd]

Being true to their games does allow leeway for characters to have access to all their abilities. You might believe that they can use PSI Fire because someone else can do it, but they still don't use it. Lucas and Ness have limits placed on them that prevent them from using those abilities. Are those game limits or story limits? Either way that was intended by the game maker.

Teleport has a long start up time.

Yeah...it takes one battle round to make...and you can make more than one at a time as well...

Now ask yourself this...how much time is one battle round?

In one round...you could simply attack something with a stick/bat, guard, create a vortex of psychic power that blows up on everything, heal one person, heal more than one person, eat a simple cookie, eat a steak meal with all the sides, blow something up, or whatever else I can't think of right now...

Do you get my point...you can't really measure how long it takes for Lucas to do things...we don't really know what is going on...

This is my point Kirby does not need time to change abilities produce weapons. He creates matter and energy instantly. Time stops for some of his abilities (i.e. crash, mike etc...) and can will invincibility at a moments notice.

Lets make this easier if you agree to this. The amount of PP an attack takes to use for PSI is the seconds it takes for it to work. Unless you have a better idea on how to tell time for the Mother kids.

 

[Kewkky]

Being true to their games does allow leeway for characters to have access to all their abilities. You might believe that they can use PSI Fire because someone else can do it, but they still don't use it. Lucas and Ness have limits placed on them that prevent them from using those abilities. Are those game limits or story limits? Either way that was intended by the game maker.

I don't think "true to their games" allows characters access to use their friends' abilities, either. If it's "true to their games", then they should be allowed to apply what you can do with them in their games, and only what THEY are allowed to do, not their friends then assume they should have their powers by some clever deduction. The fact that Lucas/Ness can't use PK Fire here, is because in their games those characers can't use them, and were never allowed to use them. Since in their games they were never allowed to use them, then in this thread they shall never be allowed to use them, thus the whole "true to their games" theme.

I agree with you, by the way.