Smash Bros. Canon Tournament! (Mario Vs. ????) - 06/14/10

[ShadowLink84]

How so? They aren' like Sonic where they freeze time or can warp someone into the sun or earth or anything like that.
They have high defense and cant be killed, but they cant do anything to most of their opponents.

 

[PowerBomb]

>_>

Cyrus used the Red chain to call fort Dialga & palkia and command them. And it has been shown Dialga can control time, but basically Cyrus wanted to remake the world and if you can control both space & time, that's entirely possible. Control over time, basically means he could overwrite the whole history of the world. The area in sinnoh is warping, but you cannot exacly see in which way it's warping.

Shown where? All I've seen in Pokemon Diamond is see Dialga make a 'small' galaxy and Cyrus jizzes over it.

It's never proven nor said dialga can destroy/create, that power belongs to arceus, the creator of the pokeverse. Cyrus also himself states Dialga, master of Time & Palkia, Master of space and so on. Pokedex + Cynthia + The library and many npc's support this.

And uh, most of that is hearsay, with the library being 'it is said' most of the time. Not really proven.

Not forgetting you can't just pull out random things out of your arse (sorry ) like "whoa dialga does nifty stuff, he must be doing this and that" when everything else points to him doing something different. You have no proof dialga can destroy/create universe, yet you state he does and totally ignore the fact that what he actually does there is bend time. >_> That's hypocritical to the core.

What am I pulling out of my arse? Cyrus defines what Dialga's doing when he is shackled with the red chain. Cyrus says something about Dialga destroying this world and creating a galaxy anew. He even remarks "ZOMG DIALGA BUTEEFUL GALAXY" when it appears.

 

[justaway12]

SPM for the Wii...yes she does...check again...just go to chapter 1-4 and see for yourself...

Oh and I like how you completely avoided the main point of how the game says she isn't invincible...and is only guarding attacks...

What point? It says it never says anything for or against it, besides, Samochan got that before. If she does get hurt by fire, then yeah, I guess.

Great…does that mean I’ll have to post a wall of text again?

Not at all, just summaries it,

Ok…so is there any issue with questioning Ness’ mental strength then?

Not at the moment.

I don’t consider it that way really…the only thing that has a measureable stat in the mother series is normal defense (which still doesn’t include everything that the shield covers…normal defense doesn’t include bombs for example…but the power shield protects vs. bombs)

I guess I could say it this way…

There are three main defensive support PK moves in the series:
Defense up
Shield of light/shield (the stronger form is Power shield/counter)
PK shield (and the stronger form is PK Power shield/counter PSI)

Defense up is overall beaten 90% of the time compared to shield/power shield…game stat wise…the most physical protection you can get from defense up is a 50% cut in damage...but that is after more than one use…shields however do that in 1 use…but they can be broken…still overall with them together you are looking at reducing damage by a lot (for example…4 damage becomes 1 in this case with Mother 3)

Overall the people who made the 3 games could never get the stat buffs/nerfs moves right IMO…For Mother 1 they were insanely high…for Mother 2 they sucked…but they came close to perfection with Mother 3 IMO…of course the reason I don’t like the stat buffs/nerfs in this game isn’t because they are bad/too good…oh no…it’s because they take all the challenge out of the game when you slap a offense/defense up on your team and then hit the foe with a offense/defense down…

They really should have had a neutralizer item ^_^

But it still is comparable though, it might not be measureable, but the principle is the same...unless your PSI doesn't get stronger further up.

Do you consider things like Yoshi, Wario, DK and such to be Mario (even though they sort of are)

Yes, unless Mario didn't appear in them, though you could just tell me =P

Well…put simply…Ness has to deal with dinosaurs that create Earthquakes because of their girth alone and are under Giygas’ influence…so add psychic powers, some mild mutations, and a desire for wanting you dead to that thing…and they still aren’t the worse foes in the game (in fact they are sort of a down play compared to another place you were at)

Did Ness move them with his mind?

Please look up what PK Fire is…unlike normal fire which has 3 things it needs to form…this fire is formed illogically…that is my point…and because of that it won’t go out logically as well…because it has been used under water…get my point of what PK Fire and psychic powers are? That is my point for them not being illogical…

Again, it's common for games to have that, Bowser could breath fire underwater, Mario could shoot fire, fire pokemon can use their fire attacks.

Actually I’m pretty sure some other posters in said topic have brought up things like Pokemon where they do use TMs…I still actually don’t really care though…because as far as TMs go…I don’t see any pokemon really learning any more that doesn’t make much sense on them…

Yet we still allow them, Mewtwo didn't get them, yet Peach could have, I'm willing to also say that non-infinate vibe thing was a game mechanic, since it was shown to be everlasting when Bowser had it, I think, and I don't think it was explained, could be wrong.

But it was…again…by speed booster being given a logical explanation in 2/3 of the games it has been in…it is refuting what has been said in Super Metroid…

Didn't you say, it said it made her go at the really, really fast and invincible in the first? Ahh IDK, Samus is boring

Yeah…but my point was in the 1st place was that Luigi has it in his subconscious…

not sure if your suggesting he use it in this thread, but he still doesn't have the power to unlock it.

Anyway I say Peach wins.

EDIT: I meant Peach wins Vs. Roy, I already explained why, don't think he can stand up to the stop watch/sleepy sheep.

 

[Samochan]

Shown where? All I've seen in Pokemon Diamond is see Dialga make a 'small' galaxy and Cyrus jizzes over it.

Like, the part when Cyrus calls fort Dialga, then dialga starts doing nifty things that goes all over sinnoh. >_>

And unless you've forgotten, on PMD2 Primal Dialga sent his henchmen to the past to stop the heroes so the dark future could happen. Celebi, the time traveling pokemon, sent grovyle and his human partner to the past but something happened and they got separated and this human turned into a pokemon. Later when the dark future is averted, this pokehuman as he was from the future, disappears cause that future is no more. Dialga then brings him back to the present with his time bending powers as a reward.

And uh, most of that is hearsay, with the library being 'it is said' most of the time. Not really proven.

So everything staten within the game is a big, fat lie? <_< Yea, right..

What am I pulling out of my arse? Cyrus defines what Dialga's doing when he is shackled with the red chain. Cyrus says something about Dialga destroying this world and creating a galaxy anew. He even remarks "ZOMG DIALGA BUTEEFUL GALAXY" when it appears.

Yes, you are pulling this destroy the world = dialga creates/destroys worlds but is not the master of time out of your arse. >_> There are many ways to destroy the world, but how one does it is the key point here. Destroying the world is certainly within the limits of Dialga's power, but how he does it is by bending time. And by stating Dialga is not the master of time, where does the ability to destroy & recreate come from then? <_< You are saying he cannot be the master of time, but on the same sentence you say he molds universe, which is imo downright idiotic when you're even using the same guy's dialogue as proof. Cyrus seeks the legendary Sinnoh deities power to remake the world in his own image, with himself as the god, cause he sees the current world as deplorable.

First meet:

"According to one theory, Mt. Coronet is where the Sinnoh region began. In a newly created world... A world where only time flowed and space expanded.. There should have been no strife. But what became of that world? Because the human spirit is weak and incomplete, strife has appeared... This world is being ruined by it...I find the state of things to be deplorable..."

At Spear Pillar, when Dialga/Palkia is doing their hocus pocus:

"Now all will end. And everything will begin. With this Red Chain I will pry open the portal to another dimension. I command that you unleash all your power for me... Dialga/Palkia the mythical Pokémon and the master of time/space! This will bring about the destruction of all things. With everything gone, there will be no fighting and no strife. Can you feel time/space distorting? Only I can choose to stop it. This is the mythical Pokémon that created Sinnoh! Dialga/Palkia the ancient deity of time/space! This world cannot be molded into the ultimate world I seek! It's far easier to create an entirely new world than to change this one! A new world in which I am the ruler of all things! I shall become a deity!

Oh! Dialga/Palkia... This is... Fantastic! Beautiful! It's the creating of a new galaxy! My new world! ... Wh-what?!"

It should be entirely possible to create a new world if he just molds either time or space, because in the very beginning of the pokemon verse, there was only Arceus who created these 3 Dragon pokemon Dialga, Palkia & Giratina. Giratina was banished to the distortion world at some point though. And Cyrus specifically says this time/space altering power is the exact thing that'll bring about the destruction of all things, and that it's the distortion of time/space that's causing the ripples going around sinnoh. We don't know if remaking the world could work however, but destruction would be entirely possible. Cyrus is a nutcase anyway though.

Platinum:

Spear Pillar:

"Everything is ready for the creation of a new world. Now, all will end. And everything will begin. With this, the Red Chain made from the crystals of the three lake Pokémon. And this, the Red Chain I replicated with technological means... With these Red Chains I will pry open the portal to another dimension. I command that you unleash your power for me...

Dialga, the mythical Pokémon, and the master of time! ...And the other. Palkia, the mythical Pokémon, and the master of space and dimensions!

I've waited so long for this moment, Dialga and Palkia. Shaping this world is a double spiral of time and space. Yes, the very things that you have the ability to control! You will do my bidding! I will have your abilities as mine! With the power I wield, I will create an entirely new world! The incomplete and ugly world we have now can disappear. I am resetting everything to zero. Nothing can remain. It is all for making the ultimate world. A world of complete perfection. Nothing so vague and incomplete as spirit can remain. "


Conclusion: Dialga/Palkia can bend time/space and Cyrus is using that/those power(s) to remake the world. Dialga/Palkia do not possess the ability to destroy/remake the world at will, but by using their powers of bending time/space they can create that effect and essentially destroy and remake (?) the world. If you're looking for the master of Creationism, take at look at Arceus.

Cynthia at Celestic Ruins:

"This cave painting...It's always been described this way. The light in the center represents either Dialga or Palkia appearing at the Spear Pillar. The three lights around it were thought to be Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf. May I continue? But, then, I realized that there may be another way of interpreting this. Could this triangle of lights actually represent a different trio? Could they be Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina instead? And the large light at their center. Does it represent something else? Could it be what created this world of ours? May I continue for a little bit longer? Thank you for listening to my theory. Do you know of the ancient Plates they find all over Sinnoh? One of them had this engraved on it. 'Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One.' I think this quote, too, points to the presence of another Pokémon. A Pokémon even more powerful than Dialga or Palkia. Does that sound plausible to you? I'm not quite sure how Giratina fits into this scheme of things, but...It's said that in the Distortion World, neither time nor space were stable. I think that tells us something about Giratina, the only Pokémon there. It must have been as powerful as Dialga and Palkia, the rulers of time and space. In some way, though, Giratina has to have a power opposite of theirs. I'm sorry this is so long. May I say one last bit? A long time ago, I wonder what sort of person painted this? Dialga's Roar of Time...Palkia's Spacial Rend...To the people back then, those Pokémon really must have appeared to rule over time and space. Seeing them must have shaken the people to their very core. This painting represents those feelings of awe, wonder, and everything else. It passed that memory to countless people, eventually becoming a myth...That's what I believe as a researcher
of myths. I think I let myself get carried away and talked for far too long. I'm sorry, and thank you. Let's meet again."

 

[Kewkky]

Make of it what you will, Clinton, but that was the first time I ever visited that website. What I would gain from changing it is a loss of credibility from other debaters due to tampering with information to suit my needs, I'm smarter than that. I tried to look for the manual somewhere to give you the exact definition of the speed Booster (which you disagree it makes you invincible even if the manual itself says it is, yet you agree that stuff that never happens in the games should be used in this thread [like Lucas being able to use the Dark Dragon to auto-win matches]), but I couldn't find anything, so I just quoted what I found in that website that referred to anything about "invincibility during Speed Booster". Plus, about the Screw Attack: it's common knowledge between all Metroid gamers as well as non-Metroid gamers that you are invincible while Screw Attacking.

The point missingnomaster brought up, though, was pretty interesting... Do the blue lasers cause the same damage as Mother Brain's touch damage? If so, then it can be seen as an extension of her touch damage, making it unavoidable damage no matter what... This is all just assumptions, though, and there's nothing to back up my speculation with. Still, if there is only 1 attack out of the hundred different attacks in the game that knock Samus out of her Screw Attack, and you can only be knocked out of Screw Attack by bosses' touch damage, what are the chances that characters in this thread will knock her out of her screw attack with their powers? A good use for Samus' Screw Attack here would be a kamikaze attack, since it's an extremely powerful attack (as stated by Samochan before, where if you Screw Attack into MP2's last boss's mouth, you take away around 3/4 of its health in a single hit), and it could knock them back both, giving Samus enough time to start getting some Speed Booster momentum again.

 

[Samochan]

Not mouth Kewkky, but stomach. He's supposedly invincible to screw attack as most bosses are, since screw attack is so powerful weapon. Against things it works though, it's usually ohko (liek aerial pirates). Gandrayda on MP3 is highly vulnerable to screw attack as well, if you manage to hit her you take away a good chunk of her hp (not a glitch but intentional).

Anyways, I've seen screw attack going past ridley on Super Metroid unharmed. >_> And basically, if you were to just screw attack on the last battle against mother brain without getting any damage, it wouldn't even trigger the scene where she starts unleashing her hyper rainbow beam at samus.

"The Speed Booster, as the name suggests, will greatly increase Samus's speed whilst she runs. She also becomes invincible, as noted in the Super Metroid Instruction Manual, p. 24"

"SPEED BOOSTER
These boots allow Samus to run at a super high speed and make her invincible as
she runs through enemies.
Blocks with the Speed Booster icon melt away when Samus runs into or over them
at super speed." - Metroid Database


I believe this is very straightforward and leaves no wiggle room.

And basically, if screw attack is invincible on another game and on another bosses can still do touch damage, we take the invincible one, cause max potential hey. =D

 

[ShadowLink84]

Umm, then I get to have super Sonic where he loses 1 ring every 5 seconds.
I also get to have hyper Sonic and every single ability he has ever used INCLUDING the magic gloves.
Problem is, super emeralds haven't appeared since (they were going to appear in SA1 but had no point in the plot. Just like big the cat *cough*)

If there a contradiction it should be evaluated.

Metroid Fusion would also over ride that issue concerning the screw attack anyway since Adam states that the SA-X is Samus at her full power.
At which point when your screw attack smacks into the SA-X's screw attack, they nullify and exchange damage.

 

[Kewkky]

If there a contradiction it should be evaluated.

Metroid Fusion would also over ride that issue concerning the screw attack anyway since Adam states that the SA-X is Samus at her full power.
At which point when your screw attack smacks into the SA-X's screw attack, they nullify and exchange damage.

Unstoppable object vs unstoppable object, much? I don't think them cancelling out then Samus being the only one to receive touch damage would've been fair. Both flying right past each other would've been pretty interesting to see, though... I'd view it as both Samus and SA-X's Screw Attacks ending, then their hitboxes catching them both as they regain vulnerability.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Unstoppable object vs unstoppable object, much? I don't think them cancelling out then Samus being the only one to receive touch damage would've been fair. Both flying right past each other would've been pretty interesting to see, though... I'd view it as both Samus and SA-X's Screw Attacks ending, then their hitboxes catching them both as they regain vulnerability.

Um no.
They both screw attack.
They slam into each other and cancel each other's screw attack.
They BOTH take damage actually.
So yeah,her screw attack isnt unstoppable, its just really friggin strong.

 

[Kewkky]

Um no.
They both screw attack.
They slam into each other and cancel each other's screw attack.
They BOTH take damage actually.
So yeah,her screw attack isnt unstoppable, its just really friggin strong.

She still goes through enemy attacks and can only be damaged by slamming into bosses. So, Samus could do like I said: Screw Attack until she hits her enemy, both are knocked back, then she can start up her Speed Booster (or go for more Screw Attacks, since the damage she gets from touch damage/SA-X's Screw Attack is pretty minimal.

And, wouldn't it still mean that Samus can only be damaged by another Screw Attack or by touch damage? Mother Brain's strongest laser attack (that's not the Hyper Rainbow Beam, which is designed to beat everything Samus has and deal humongous damage), her red laser, goes through Samus while her non-strongest attack, the blue laser, hits Samus. How is this explained? (brought up by missingnomaster)

 

[_clinton]

Hmm . . . okay.
So the Needles are the only thing that keeps the Island/world whole, correct?

In a way…they are…but logically…the only reason the island is there is because the power is there…not the needles…

The fact that the Dragon reflects the user suggests that the Dragon is the one recreating the world/islands.

The game says that the power of the dragon enters their soul…and that they as in the users of the dragon’s power…are reflected in the soul of the dragon…if anything that quote should prove that they are one and the same…

The Needles boosted PK Love alone (no other stat or ability at all) and whoever has possession of the most PK Love (aka Needle upgrades) is the one whose heart reflects whether or not the world is rebuilt or not, according to the Dragon.

I’ve already talked about this way too much…PK Love is the representation of the Dragon’s soul…it going up is proof that they are absorbing it and is canon proof that they are getting stronger…it isn’t the needle at all…

I even pointed out that even w/o Claus pulling the 6th needle…he learned PK Love Omega when Lucas did…that shows that all three of them are connected…it’s not just Claus giving his power to Lucas for end game…

And again…Ness never received any large boosts until the end with his power…but is there any thoughts at all with him not absorbing it?

Oh and considering how PK Love Omega is the strongest normal PK attack in that game…I hardly consider Lucas not getting any stat or ability from releasing the power…

PK Love is where this power is reflected upon.[/QUOTE]

Ah no…the game even points out that the power is reflected in their hearts/soul as well…not just that the dragon is in their soul…and I’ve already talked about the stat boost…

They never managed to make it fly. If they could, then the option would have been given in-game.

Not if the game makers didn’t want it to be in any other area…which they didn’t…

Mr. Saturns managed great technological feats, but they got captured by the Pig Masks.
What they managed to achieve doesn't really matter :/

They with Dr. Andonuts made the stuff Porky has…I think their technological feats matter…god you wouldn’t have been able to beat the game in Mother 2 w/o their help…

Besides, what proof do you have that PK Love will reach an airship thouasands of feet in the air.

PK Powers haven’t been affected by extreme distance before…Paula and Ness have shown that…the power of the earth itself is sealed throughout the whole bloody island in the craziest of places…

And in Mother 2 it was sealed throughout the entire world…

How big do you think this field is anyway?

All battles in Mother 3 are at a fighting distance away. You honestly don't expect me to believe Zombies fought Lucas 1000 feet away, do you?

Good jump with the weak foe references…

Didn't power shield eventually wear off or break?
Halberd has all day.

Power shield breaks only if it’s attacked…or if the battle is over and the User puts it down…

Banana peel may have been humor, but it still broke from the sheer ramming force into the wall.
iirc Pn'B only managed to tear through minor enemies.[/COLOR]

Most of those foes there are pretty hard to fight IMO…and Samus only managed to tear through minor enemies with her speed booster if we are going to use that comparison…

So now Lucas and team can leap tall building in a single bound?

It’s called levitation as far as psychic skills go…and Nintendo doesn’t seem to mind making them have those powers…using them on Boney indirectly doesn’t seem like that big of a deal…

Oh and I like how you think only Mr. Batty can fly…but Claus is shown to fly outside of a fight…

The wings and turrets and whatnot can be blown to bits, but the core reactor will keep it afloat.

Which is why the thing lost height when it lost the wings huh?

So the Needles are empty capsules of nothing that apparently upgrade the power of PK Love?

I already talked about this…no they didn’t…the dragon gets closer to waking up each time one of them is pulled…that power is what makes them stronger…not the needles…

1/7 of the energy sounds a lot like the power of the land to me.

It’s not…hell it doesn’t even sound like they are even in location for power…like for example…the last needle itself is located in the head of the dragon…but the needle by the fire spring was only in a foot…

If they were simply capsules or containers, then why would the world be destroyed after they are all pulled?

Are you even paying attention to the story for the game? The power was removed from the land…it was the only thing keeping the area safe…

Lucas only posses the power of the land, but it is not the equivilant of being god. But it does show that PK Love will be a OHKO against anyone without some form of invincibility.

Already talked about this…

PK Love Omega against Porky only did so much damage. Double it because Lucas gets 4 more Needles applied to his PK Love which makes it a OHKO in my eyes.
Maybe even more powerful than PK Rockin' . . .

How would it be stronger than Rockin…they are the same power?

And of course PK Love only did so much damage to Porky…the game has to have some challenge you know…

Metroid Prime: Echoes
The power of Aether was in no way "holy" or "blessed".

Definately not "all the time" in works of fiction or games which doesn't make it the equivalent of, say, Ashera's blessing.

It doesn’t matter if it wasn’t blessed in Metroid Prime Echoes…
It was holy in the Mother games…

In Greek mythology, sure.
But this isn't Greek mythology

Again…not my point…my point is someone who has only 10% of a chaos gods power is going to lose to someone who has 15% of a chaos gods power…

So can the Dragon turn water into wine?
idunno
Never shown in-game;

Logically…it could…who cares if it doesn’t?

Last I checked being able to destroy a world was more impressive than wine making…

Ashera is one of those, "you do the work while I sit here" based on what I've read here.
So does that mean she can't topple mountains?

Her full form in FE flooded the world…

She may be limited without equipment, but who cares? That isn't the point.

My point was Ness could make her limited…by far more than she could him…that parasol isn’t a part of her body…ripping it away from her using TK doesn’t sound like it would deform her

Which is the only reason why Ness would prevent himself from doing it…you know…because all the people Ness fights in EB except for the early human foes in Onett are disarmed for some reason…I wonder why?

Ness is limited to PK Flash, Hypnosis and Paralysis because they are the only examples of telepathic powers he knows.

I’ve already given proof to Ness having more than this…and being one who learns just by watching things…so this statement of Ness only having such and such is BS…

Ness is no exception.

Except Ness, Lucas, Mewtwo and whatever pokemon the trainer has happen to have access to psychic powers…

Which aren’t limited by their definition…
Hell…Samus isn’t really limited that much either…have you looked at how she learns new beam moves anyway?

It doesn't really matter what enemies can do in their respective games. More so, just what kind of damage a character can deal and take.

Um…yeah it does matter what a ****ing character can do in their games…that is the point of this thread remember?

Like I said before…just because Diddy Kong’s Going Bananas can take hits from a bee sting doesn’t matter that much when another character shows that they can kill with their mind…

Which BTW…how would you defend vs. Killing stuff with your mind? That is the one thing that keeps not being talked about with Samus/Bowser/MK…how are they going to defend vs. Telepathic powers?

I don't even remember what you're referencing here >___>

Mother 3 again…the power under the island is unlimited according to Ionia in case you forgot…

I swear, the Imperialist didn't deal anymore than 170 units of damage (highest HP being 199) with a headshot.

That is pretty much it…

Ness couldn't hurt Giygas.

Already talked about Giygas too much and how that worked…with the whole healing thing and all that…plus the fact that the game likes to break the 4th wall shows if anything how you can’t take that seriously…

Ness and Lucas are not the same.
The 3 Links aren't either.

Um…yeah they are…what part of their canons where they keep getting reborn, or having the same stuff don’t you get?

EDIT: _clinton, a lot of the Pokedex doesn't actually prove its descriptions. Dialga - controlling time? Master of time? Diety?

I noticed someone else talking about this...so I'm going to let them...

Common sense, dude. Speed booster-LIKE traits. You even said that... they might be similar, but they're not the exact same thing... except for maybe Serris, who was actually invincible when he Speed-Boosted. You had to wait 'till he stopped and then shoot him.

Him having his "opening" is if anything a game mech. though...considering on what the X are...and what that thing was...I hardly see it has being "tired" in that fight...if anything the speed booster thing was just "boss invincibility" because Samus isn't the only thing to become immune to damage for a second when she is hurt...

Really...I still want to know what makes you think Samus is going to be able to speed boost into Ness/Lucas when they have a shield on? If anything I still see it as running into a wall of spikes…

A brick can rupture human skull when you throw it at someone. I'm fairly certain stone kirby weights more than a brick too and is even more dense.

Explain to me how Lucas' skull isn't protected in this fight?

Anyway...I'll post more later

 

[Samochan]

Well Lucas' head, if not using shield or items to boost his defence, isn't protected really by anything else besides his hairdo, which I doubt would help much even if slicked with lots and lots of hairgel.

But the point is, even a small stone can be deadly.

Shield =/= impenetrable forcefield. It's just a defence boost, but enemies can still attack you just fine. >_> On mother 3, some attacks cannot be even shielded nor countered back.

 

[Kewkky]

Him having his "opening" is if anything a game mech. though...considering on what the X are...and what that thing was...I hardly see it has being "tired" in that fight...if anything the speed booster thing was just "boss invincibility" because Samus isn't the only thing to become immune to damage for a second when she is hurt...

Really...I still want to know what makes you think Samus is going to be able to speed boost into Ness/Lucas when they have a shield on? If anything I still see it as running into a wall of spikes…

Because Ness/Lucas are characters, and a wall of spikes is an obstacle. When Samus runs into an obstacle, she stops and her invincibility stops, but this never happens against enemies, which Ness/Lucas are. If Ness/Lucas up their shields, they still get hit. Samus runs through enemies even if they have their best defenses up (those purple Space Pirates that are vulnerable to normal fire when they go golden), so what makes the Mother boys so different than Space Pirates in this case? If she's invincible while running, then their shields/counters will do nothing to her due to her invincibility. And since their shield/counter don't nullify all the damage they receive, they still get hit. That seems like a checkmate on Samus' part whenever she's got a clear hit on them. PLUS! Considering her supersonic speeds, she can make it to them before they evade, as well as stop and shinespark towards them with no predictable acceleration if she so desires.

 

[Incurable_Necrophile]

Lol, moar Samus fanboyism. What stops the psychic kids from TKing Samus off her feet effectively stopping her?

Also, any opposing force equal to or greater than the force Samus strikes with stops her, stopping her 'invincibility', which by the way, is a no-limit fallacy.

Still waiting on the Samus Vs. Ganon debate. That'll be great fun.

 

[ShadowLink84]

She still goes through enemy attacks and can only be damaged by slamming into bosses. So, Samus could do like I said: Screw Attack until she hits her enemy, both are knocked back, then she can start up her Speed Booster (or go for more Screw Attacks, since the damage she gets from touch damage/SA-X's Screw Attack is pretty minimal.

And, wouldn't it still mean that Samus can only be damaged by another Screw Attack or by touch damage? Mother Brain's strongest laser attack (that's not the Hyper Rainbow Beam, which is designed to beat everything Samus has and deal humongous damage), her red laser, goes through Samus while her non-strongest attack, the blue laser, hits Samus. How is this explained? (brought up by missingnomaster)

Most likely the blue beam was programmed to automatically deal damage to Samus when she is struck. Most likely, a gameplay mechanic, since ther eis no reason for a weaker attack to damage Samus while a stronger one does not.

It does mean the Screw attack is beatable just only by something equal or greater

 

[Kewkky]

Lol, moar Samus fanboyism.

I find that insulting. So, even though Sonic and Ness/Lucas are the ones with most discussion, Samus people who try to correct errors are still the ones trying to bend rules, eh?

What stops the psychic kids from TKing Samus off her feet effectively stopping her?

What's stopping Samus from shooting at the mother boys with her Imperialist (easily one of her most deadly weapons) stopping them from finishing whatever attack they want to do, or going invincible immediately as the match begins with her Hyper mode and attacking them with a barrage of Hyper Beams (phazon, which are neither physical nor energy-based) then Speed Boosting around them and shooting non-stop, or screw-attacking into them dealing enormous damage then repeating, or grappling them and siphoning their life force (non-energy based nor physical), or shooting a Darkburst and sending them into a dimension where the destination is as deadly as the way to travel there, or (...) ? The Mother boys might have answers to these, but not ALL of these can they hope to survive against. In the end, they'll resort to healing while Samus can continue her fast barrage of attacks nonstop with her infinite ammo, until they run out of PP and have to endure the consecuences of death.

Also, any opposing force equal to or greater than the force Samus strikes with stops her, stopping her 'invincibility', which by the way, is a no-limit fallacy.

Then what about the Mother Brain example? She shoots two lasers: a red one, and a blue one. The red one goes right through Samus' screw attack, but is stronger than the blue one, while the blue one knocks Samus out of it. There must be a game mechanic behind those attacks, it doesn't make sense when you try to look at it from the "Samus gets knocked out by moves stronger than her Screw Attack" argument.

It does mean the Screw attack is beatable just only by something equal or greater

In regards to this thread and the characters who participate in it... Where can we draw the line between "equal or greater"? Samus' Screw Attack does enormous damage in all her games (Almost 3/4 of MP2's last boss? Enemies dying in 1 hit? Bypassing normal defenses with ease? Going through any attack without taking any damage whatsoever? Spammable, with no limit as to when we are forced to stop?), what can be compared to it? Keep in mind that no attack has been able to knock out Samus out of her Screw Attack, unless you count Mother Brain's blue laser, which you yourself said that it must have some sort of game mechanic behind it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Like I said before…just because Diddy Kong’s Going Bananas can take hits from a bee sting doesn’t matter that much when another character shows that they can kill with their mind…

Going Bananas doesn't only protect against bee stings. <_< Yes, that's the LEAST it protects against. Besides, Zingers (thats how these gaint killer bees are called) are pretty **** big, a sting of them is going to hurt.

The things Going Bananas protect the Kongs are bombs, lava, fire, common enemies (which are killed in contact, but that's probably a game mechanic or just wouldn't work otherwise here) and it works against bosses.

The Crystal Stars -which DK only would be able to use- protect against even more. And they make Donkey Kong fly... O.o Briefly of coarse...

 

[_clinton]

What point? It says it never says anything for or against it, besides, Samochan got that before. If she does get hurt by fire, then yeah, I guess.

She does get hurt by fire…and the game never said it was invincibility…
So…it isn’t invincibility…just a guard command…

Not at all, just summaries it,

Read the last post from me…

But it still is comparable though, it might not be measureable, but the principle is the same...unless your PSI doesn't get stronger further up.

PK moves stay the same throughout the game…there is no special attack stat…the closest things we can get from PK moves is how much they cost…which is a measure of concentration…and how much their base damage is…

Yes, unless Mario didn't appear in them, though you could just tell me =P

Well if the requirements for the thing is Mario appearing in the game…keep in mind the things are open…

Did Ness move them with his mind?

What do you think a TK wave of energy is?

Again, it's common for games to have that, Bowser could breath fire underwater, Mario could shoot fire, fire pokemon can use their fire attacks.

Which isn’t my point…the psychic’s are the only characters w/o a reason for their fire being there…Bowser and the Pokemon produce it naturally…Mario is on drugs…the points go on and on…

Yet we still allow them, Mewtwo didn't get them, yet Peach could have, I'm willing to also say that non-infinate vibe thing was a game mechanic, since it was shown to be everlasting when Bowser had it, I think, and I don't think it was explained, could be wrong.

Hell…another reason I could bring up vibe powers being not ok is because the only reason Peach had them was because she was on “Vibe Island” or whatever the place was in that game…but I won’t do that…because this thread already has shown that they are ok with limiting Lucas’/Ness’ powers w/o a good reason but will allow others not to be limited for greater reasons…

And again…it’s sort of unfair for you to compare TMs to this…when TMs for the most part make sense for the pokemon…how hard is it for a pokemon to “rest”?

Didn't you say, it said it made her go at the really, really fast and invincible in the first?

No I did not say that…

not sure if your suggesting he use it in this thread, but he still doesn't have the power to unlock it.

This is why I said it was a subconscious thing…still…whether or not he knows about it (because after the events of SMP…who knows what he was told?) so I don’t see why the power wouldn’t activate vs. something like Ganondorf…and his not his god power…

Well Lucas' head, if not using shield or items to boost his defence, isn't protected really by anything else besides his hairdo, which I doubt would help much even if slicked with lots and lots of hairgel.

Yes...because he doesn't just not have a section for head armor huh?

But the point is, even a small stone can be deadly.

Yes, and so can a laser gun, bombs, and so on...yet Lucas takes them again...

Shield =/= impenetrable forcefield. It's just a defence boost, but enemies can still attack you just fine. >_> On mother 3, some attacks cannot be even shielded nor countered back.

Like I said before...the game mechs. for the shields are different with each game...get it...game mechs.

Mother 1
PK shield actually protected from everything in that game
Power shield reflected damage back from non psi attacks

Mother 2
PK shield actually gave full protection from PK
shield only was 1/2 damage...but protected from bombs and so on

Mother 3
both types were 1/2 off...only certain foes could bypass the shield using certain attacks...hell Claus' gun went through them but his other physical attack didn't...but the other guns used by the same foes didn't...

That shows game mechs. overall have affected things because the logical definition for the stuff says that they wouldn't easily do go through it...

Because Ness/Lucas are characters, and a wall of spikes is an obstacle. When Samus runs into an obstacle, she stops and her invincibility stops, but this never happens against enemies, which Ness/Lucas are.

I like how Samus' invincible move gets stopped by a spike trap that was just set up manually...logically if Samus was truly invincible she would just run through the spike trap...

Ness/Lucas are a bit stronger than Samus' normal foes I would like to think...for one thing they are putting up a shield which doesn't have any logical meaning behind it...

Oh and again...how is the speed booster invincibility? Supersonic running speed does not make you invincible...ask Sonic himself...

Considering her supersonic speeds, she can make it to them before they evade, as well as stop and shinespark towards them with no predictable acceleration if she so desires.

What part of me telling you that Ness/Lucas fight supersonic speed based foes and beyond did you not understand?

Ness' foes are phasing through space freely by teleporting to try and attack him...as in foes without a speed limit...and he can track them...

Lucas has foes are made out of nothing but a huge clump of light...and you can track them...

Lol, moar Samus fanboyism. What stops the psychic kids from TKing Samus off her feet effectively stopping her?

According to the other side…all the proof that Ness/Lucas have the talent for psychic powers like fire, freeze, and thunder doesn’t matter because they “don’t use it for their battle”

Which shouldn’t matter anyway because what they are for battle is just a role…but whatever…

Oh and when I brought up Rockin/Love for proof that Ness/Lucas are masters of TK and thus just “grabbing a foe” wouldn’t be hard…I don’t know why they didn’t get the fact that the move wouldn’t **** her…

Also, any opposing force equal to or greater than the force Samus strikes with stops her, stopping her 'invincibility', which by the way, is a no-limit fallacy.

Thank you...I was trying to remember the actual term for this ^_^

 

[missingnomaster]

The point missingnomaster brought up, though, was pretty interesting... Do the blue lasers cause the same damage as Mother Brain's touch damage? If so, then it can be seen as an extension of her touch damage, making it unavoidable damage no matter what... This is all just assumptions, though, and there's nothing to back up my speculation with. Still, if there is only 1 attack out of the hundred different attacks in the game that knock Samus out of her Screw Attack, and you can only be knocked out of Screw Attack by bosses' touch damage, what are the chances that characters in this thread will knock her out of her screw attack with their powers? A good use for Samus' Screw Attack here would be a kamikaze attack, since it's an extremely powerful attack (as stated by Samochan before, where if you Screw Attack into MP2's last boss's mouth, you take away around 3/4 of its health in a single hit), and it could knock them back both, giving Samus enough time to start getting some Speed Booster momentum again.

Touch damage against Mother Brain is 60, while the blue attack (it's more circles, rather than a beam) does 20. It is also worth noting that Mother Brain can be hurt by the Screw Attack if you hit the top of her head, though you still get hurt.

 

[JOE!]

quick question:

why is Ike allowed? Wouldnt nobody be able to beat him seeing as he can only be hurt by certain blessed weapons, that nobody on the roster would have?

 

[Lovely]

I was reading the first post about Lucas vs Kirby then I saw an error:

Lucas Vs. Kirby -1 Kirby. +1 Lucas.

Page(s) This Was Discussed: 541 - 551

Summarized Reason: Kirby's sword options aren't really that great Counter would deal a stupid amount of damage to Kirby. If he's going by his bar system, then there's the chance damage could add up really quickly. If Dark Mind's laser is powerful and takes away two bars of HP , I think Love could take away two bars of HP that Kirby has as well. Counter to reflect damage or shield to protect him. Items help too.

Yea that one. All attacks does one damage on every Kirby game with a heath bar. And why would Kirby use a sword when he has much better options? O_o

 

[§leepy God]

quick question:

why is Ike allowed? Wouldnt nobody be able to beat him seeing as he can only be hurt by certain blessed weapons, that nobody on the roster would have?

♪ Ike can be attacked by anything, just his sword is blessed. Unless he has a special skill Mantle, but he doesn't. †

 

[Samochan]

quick question:

why is Ike allowed? Wouldnt nobody be able to beat him seeing as he can only be hurt by certain blessed weapons, that nobody on the roster would have?

Maybe cause he's part of the cast still? >_>

 

[ShadowLink84]

In regards to this thread and the characters who participate in it... Where can we draw the line between "equal or greater"? Samus' Screw Attack does enormous damage in all her games (Almost 3/4 of MP2's last boss? Enemies dying in 1 hit? Bypassing normal defenses with ease? Going through any attack without taking any damage whatsoever? Spammable, with no limit as to when we are forced to stop?), what can be compared to it? Keep in mind that no attack has been able to knock out Samus out of her Screw Attack, unless you count Mother Brain's blue laser, which you yourself said that it must have some sort of game mechanic behind it.

You would compare it to the feats that the individual has done.
Sonic can enter the atmosphere of the earth with no issue.
He also travels much much faster.

So if super sonic slams into Samus' screw attack, he should win out.

 

[_clinton]

Plus, about the Screw Attack: it's common knowledge between all Metroid gamers as well as non-Metroid gamers that you are invincible while Screw Attacking.

Which is a game mech.

Because I like how none of the books for that game say you are invincible while using the screw attack (not even a vague description)...you are just a whirling ball of ****ing energy...

And again…my point about me not acceptation the speed booster definition is because it is vague…maybe if it was the only one there I would…but there are two other games that give more info on the move than what Super Metroid does in the 1st place…

Going Bananas doesn't only protect against bee stings. <_< Yes, that's the LEAST it protects against. Besides, Zingers (thats how these gaint killer bees are called) are pretty **** big, a sting of them is going to hurt.

I think you miss my point still...my comment about bee stings is just me comparing what Diddy Kong/Donkey Kong have gone through compared to C. Falcon...you can't tell me that DK being the champion of his island/surrounding islands is better than Falcon being the champion of his galaxy...

AND I'm aware of how big those bees are...just the normal ones are the size of Diddy...

The Crystal Stars -which DK only would be able to use- protect against even more. And they make Donkey Kong fly... O.o Briefly of coarse...

Again...the comment about invincibility and it being BS seems to pass over this group...again...what proof do you have that it would protect in "another world"

Yea that one. All attacks does one damage on every Kirby game with a heath bar. And why would Kirby use a sword when he has much better options? O_o

Kirby's health is more or less largely affected by game mechs and is pretty hard to measure...the best thing we have is Kirby Super Star for a measure of how Kirby does vs. others...

And...I don't know why he wrote about only sword Kirby when I pretty much argued the fact that Lucas is protected from pretty much everything that Kirby can do...

And on another note...I still am sick of Ike's fans and his BS "blessing"

How is that blessing better than any of the other holy stuff used by like 90% of the people in this?

 

[missingnomaster]

I was reading the first post about Lucas vs Kirby then I saw an error:



Yea that one. All attacks does one damage on every Kirby game with a heath bar. And why would Kirby use a sword when he has much better options? O_o

I understand that the laser was really easy to dodge... But check it yourself if you can (I don't really have a good way of recording it), that laser does 2 bars in AM.

 

[Incurable_Necrophile]

HP bars are a game mechanic. There's no such thing as taking a maximum of two bars of damage. :| That's bull****.

 

[missingnomaster]

Had to prove a point.

Regardless of whether I agree with you or not.

 

[Kewkky]

I like how Samus' invincible move gets stopped by a spike trap that was just set up manually...logically if Samus was truly invincible she would just run through the spike trap...

Samochan (or Dryn, I forgot) brought up that the floor is a different type of floor, making her Speed Boost stop when she walked on it. Have you tried shinesparking against a spiked wall? Nothing happens to Samus. Plus, this is a NEUTRAL battlefield, so spiked floors don't exist.

Are you going to argue that Super Sonic isn't invincible in the old Sonic games due to how you still die if you jump off into a pit? I'm sure a number of people would argue that Sonic is still invincible.

Ness/Lucas are a bit stronger than Samus' normal foes I would like to think...for one thing they are putting up a shield which doesn't have any logical meaning behind it...

So, you're trying to argue that an illogical shield is to stop everything you want them to stop, but also that a logical definition which clearly states Samus' invincibility is illogical? You're as bright as an unlit candle, it seems. Why argue against an illogical invincibility like Screw Attack, if you're going to try and make your precious "illogical" shields stop Samus' logical invincibility?

Oh and again...how is the speed booster invincibility? Supersonic running speed does not make you invincible...ask Sonic himself...

Because the Super Metroid Official Instruction Booklet says it is, and the games shows that nothing stops Samus except the walls (and spiked floors). It says Samus is invincible while she is Speed Boosting. Stopping Samus stops that invincibility. WHat can stop Samus? Oh, I don't know... Walls? A drastic change in the terrain? Pits? Lava? Powerbomb blocks? Unless "PSI Shield" means "Powerbomb block" or any of the before-stated obstacles, you have no way of stopping her... Which means, she retains her invincibility trait while running at supersonic speeds: both of which are stated as a part of her attack in the OFFICIAL NINTENDO INSTRUCTION BOOKLET FOR SUPER METROID. What if we wanted to use the Super Metroid Speed Booster and Screw Attack?

What part of me telling you that Ness/Lucas fight supersonic speed based foes and beyond did you not understand?[/quote]
IN A TURN-BASED GAME. You have the chance to do anything at any time since everyone takes turns damaging each other. He hits you at supersonic speed? Great! Now it's your turn and the opponent's going to stand still. Don't bring any more bull**** to the table, you know THIS is true. How will you argue against this? Use your imagination to project a real-time fight scene where Lucas and Ness both fight supersonic-speeding enemies? The fact will remain that they stand still when your turn starts.

Which is a game mech.

Because I like how none of the books for that game say you are invincible while using the screw attack (not even a vague description)...you are just a whirling ball of ****ing energy...

Yet nothing harms Samus as soon as you start Screw Attacking, only the things DESIGNED to hurt Samus while Screw Attacking will hurt her. You're trying to take one (actually, two if you count Speed Booster) of Samus' most fundamental powers from her, when we're talking "true to their games".

I don't know how you expect people to agree with you if you want to give Lucas something that is never seen in battle, yet you wanna take stuff that others DO use in battles, like Samus' Speed Booster and Screw Attack properties.

And again…my point about me not acceptation the speed booster definition is because it is vague…maybe if it was the only one there I would…but there are two other games that give more info on the move than what Super Metroid does in the 1st place…

You are a walking facepalm. How is "Official Instruction Booklet (an official Nintendo source)", as well as many internet sources, vague? What if we decided on using Super Metroid's Speed Booster and not Metroid Fusion's Speed Booster, what can you say about that? Both are the same thing, but Super Metroid wrote to the players that you are invincible while speed boosting.

HP bars are a game mechanic. There's no such thing as taking a maximum of two bars of damage. :| That's bull****.

We can still compare damage output. If an attack in the game does 1/2 the damage of the strongest for in its characters' game, and another attack does 1/2 the damage of the strongest foe in the other character's game, then we could argue that both attacks do the same amount of damage: 1/2 of the HP.

 

[Samochan]

Kirby is extremely elastic, so it's no wonder he can take all kinds of attacks with minimal damage. >_> Kirby in overall is very unique character.

And lol at Clinton claiming invincibility, clear as a day, is vague when he argues for lucas and ness getting some hax powers they never even showed in game. =)

I believe that would be called doublestandarding or being hypocritical.

And last time I checked, invincible in dictionary means something cannot be harmed or overcome. Both described and shown ingame, so hardly vague.

And I don't see why we should just omit Kirby's defense when we're not omiting anyone else's. <_<

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

What do we have for the current match-up so far?

 

[justaway12]

I don't think Roy can stand Sleepy time, or the stop watch.

 

[Samochan]

Roy has sword, but peach has defence and all kinds of nifty items and special attacks like statuses. But as roy has sword of seals that was used to seal a person into it, why couldn't he use the sword of seals to seal peach into it? That is, ofc, if he manages to get it done without getting pwned by peach in various ways.

 

[warpd]

Sigh...Mike Kirby would make Lucas lose concentration. Losing concentration in the Mother series means you can not use PSI attacks. Combine that with Paint Kirby which would cause crying and Lucas is one unhappy child.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Okay, moving on.

Vs.

Current Match-Up:
THE PRINCESS Vs. THE WARRIOR

Marth Vs. Zelda

Vs.

Loser's Round 4, Match 3.

Who will emerge victorious?

Overall Results

Wins +4:

, ,

Wins +3:

, , ,

Wins +2:

:mewtwo:,

Wins +1:

, , , , ,

Neutral:

, , , , , , , ,

Loss -1:

, , , ,

Loss -2:

, , , , ichu:, , ,

Loss -3:

,

Loss -4:

,

 

[missingnomaster]

Marth may want the Earth Orb, rather than Falchion, in this matchup. I think that would be enough though.

 

[Samochan]

Sigh...Mike Kirby would make Lucas lose concentration. Losing concentration in the Mother series means you can not use PSI attacks. Combine that with Paint Kirby which would cause crying and Lucas is one unhappy child.

Yea, this. :/

Kirby is way too low, considering his abilities. ._. Poor kirby. :<

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Roy lost to Peach.... how? Peach has nothing to do when Roy strikes her unless Peach his fighting Roy without the Sword of Seal. :/ †

♪ Marth should be able to deal with Zelda, though Zelda does have hidden power that she can tap. †

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

@Warp: And nothing Lucas has can counter that?

 

[warpd]

Lucas does have items that he can use, but they take time to use. Upon further inspection Lucas is protected by element attacks thanks to his armor but not the status effects they might inflict. If Ice Kirby can solidify Lucas he can't do anything.