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lol, they already did MK.samus or metaknight i'd say
Her projectiles are far from great.At a glance, Samus seems to be a great character. Her moves are quick. Her spikes are easy to land, and her projectiles are great. Her Screw Attack is instant, and her smashes are extremely quick and damaging. You probably won't notice the lack of KO power until you start comparing her with Ike.
Lucario sucks on the surface. He starts out HORRIBLY weak, even weaker than Peach or Samus, and the difference isn't noticeable enough at high % due to the perception that at high %, you're supposed to kill. However, you might die first as everyone and their mother is stronger than you, and then you can't kill them! What the hell! And then you get 2-stocked. :
The story of the scrub Lucario.
You must have arrived after April.Sonic seems like a good character on the surface.
untiil you attack with him and then you notice his attacks are average in speed which ANY n00b can spot. IN fact that was one of the reasons people said he sucked.He's incredibly quick, which seems at first to make up for all his flaws.
Recovery is great that is true.You can't edgeguard him due to his stupid recovery, and he's just so gosh darn FAST that you just can't keep up because "YOU'RE TOO SLOOOOOOOOOOW."
AH okay my mistake there then.You'll never kill with Bair our Aura Sphere at low % unless you're gimping or your opponent has an obscene amount of damage.
Glide tossing fixes the range of the turnips actually and the turnips are actually good.She's underrated, I'll give you that
But turnips are still horrible excuses for a projectile now. They can't be spammed due to their hour and a half of time needed to pluck just one and Peach's very weak throwing arm.
Her air and close game is good, however.
This was Samus from a distance and from someone with a non-tourney bias, and you went far too deep into it. I know this and you know this, but someone picking up Samus without any knowledge of the tournament scene or any previous knowledge of Melee would not realize this and consider her to be a very decent character. It is only after one truly delves into her character does one truly discover all of her flaws.Her projectiles are far from great.
Missiles are slow.
bombs are far from what they used to be.
Smashes are weak in knockback.
She has a harder time killing than Sonic.
Anyone lacks KO poer when compared to Ike (most of the cast anyway)
Combo? Combo? Lucario cannot "combo better than the majority of the cast." He can string two hits together or the same move over and over again at low %. That's it. His "combos" are extremely easy to see coming, as they usually start with Lucario jumping at you with Fair, walking towards you with ftilt, or just plain you screwing up and getting behind him/too close so he can nab you with utilt. That's it. His "combos" only work until certain %, after which Fair gets too much knockback to allow a regular followup. His "great combos" are all really strings aside from fair>___, ftilt spam and utilt spam, and many only work at certain %s.Lucario has massive ability in combos and can combo very well. The very first thoughts of him wer ethat while he can't kill easily. His ability to rack up damage and combo better than the majority of the cast made up for this by far.
No he can't. He still needs mid-high % or for you to be obscenely high % before he can kill you. Until he gets to 100+, he won't be getting any "good" KO ability. Until then, he has to rely on his "combos" to get your % much higher than his so he can KO you when the time comes. However, with our constant use of Fsmash and Aura Sphere, we have to really think hard about our options when its time to go for the kill.He can make up for killing power easily.
Aura Sphere's priority goes up with his damage. Only certain projectiles will negate/clash it out at any %. Pikmin and Grenades are the main ones, I believe.Aura sphere may lack priority but its spammable and pretty good, especially in a defense oriented game.
His roll is fast, quite possibly the best in the game.
The topic never says anything about him being a truly horrible character. You have to think outside the box. They said that the character is underestimated, yes. They said that this character SEEMS horrible ON THE SURFACE. Lucario definitely seems horrible on the surface, as if you play him for your first time without knowing anything about him, you WILL hate him because the first thing you notice is that he has no knockback and his recovery move does no damage.The general populace may have underestimated Lucario somewhat, but he is y no means, a bad looking character at all.
Especially considering where they placed him in the tiers.
Nope, I've been tracking this since Brawl's original release date.You must have arrived after April.
Not noticeable at first. His attacks are very quick. Look at his fair, nair, uair, ftilt,bair, jab*combo, dash attack, SideB, DownB, UpB, dsmash, utilt, and dtilt and then tell me that he's slow. Most of his moves are very quick. Of course when you compare him to Marth who's start-up is around -3 frames, you notice it, but if you just look at Sonic himself, his moves are VERY quick (aside from fsmash, which is the most noticeable, and possibly the only move that really is "slow.") Priority doesn't matter at a distance. Sonic's attacks and movement speed hit before the opponent can react due to their speed, as no "n00b" will have the insane reaction time needed in order to outspace him. Hell, I go occasionally/went to this forum in which they had no real knowledge of the tournament scene, and everyone thought Sonic wasn't the best, but thought he was definitely a middle-of-the-road character due to his incredible movement speed and attacks.untiil you attack with him and then you notice his attacks are average in speed which ANY n00b can spot. IN fact that was one of the reasons people said he sucked.
Le alone his lack of priority and difficult yin KOing.
The biggest reason that Sonic is considered to be "low" and "bottom" is because of it being a trend. Everyone says it. The best players say it. All the tier lists say it. It must be true. However, if you look back at the game before the American release, everyone was talking about how Sonic would be mid-tier. Remember when people thought Pit would be the new Falco because of his quick attacks and very spammable arrows? Lucario's placement is usually "upper-mid" only by the knowledgeable players. Often, his placement is mid-mid by the average casual players.Recovery is great that is true.
Yet if he looks so good on the surface, why do scrubs still insist on sticking him in bottom and low?
You provided something that shoed Lucario being so much worse and yet, why was his tier placement in upper mid?
Why has he beenscreeping up while Sonic hasn't gone anywhere from low?
The only ones that really say he is mid are the sonic mains, and a few other people.
Everyone else say that he is low tier.
That's being underestimated.
Dsmash and Usmash are entirely situational due to their startup. Dsmash has too much start-up for too little range when it comes to Lucario. It's trajectory, however is very favorable. It's only true use is a tech-chase so far, as it's start-up is way too lengthy for it to be as spammable as fsmash. Usmash, however, is actually a bit more useful, despite it's 15-frame startup (which is actually slightly better than bair. Haha.) and very little horizontal range (at the start.) When used, it forms an impenetrable shield from above. (Take that, Toon Link!) that lasts a HILARIOUSLY long time. It has no horizontal range at the start yes, but that's the funny thing. The Hitbox is absolutely ridiculous. Throughout the move, Lucario is a hitbox. The hitbox is mostly invisible and goes a bit higher than the aura burst itself. It starts off invisibly around the tail area, then swirls up Lucario into his hand, and then seems to somehow grow an extra hitbox section near the front of his knees near the end, picking up people nearby who thought it'd be a good idea to charge a smash while being too close because we whiffed it stupidly. <<AH okay my mistake there then.
What about his other smashes like the Dsmash and Usmash? Well the Usmash is slo so forget that but does the Dsmash kill better than MK's Dsmash?
Grante dit isn't as fast butyou understand what I mean.
Glide tossing does not make her turnips go any farther. The point is that they do not fly far enough to be a long range weapon without Peach stepping into mid-range. =PGlide tossing fixes the range of the turnips actually and the turnips are actually good.
Anyone who played melee understands how good her turnips really are.
First off Pika is in no way underestimated he is considered a Mid high-High tier character, although his ranged game is quite good (a spammy surface clinging projectile), his close range game is by no means weak the weakest part of that game is his tilts which are weakish, but he maore than makes up for them with his smashes which are (for the most part) Lag-free, and are all powerful. Pika's ariels while strong are short-ranged so he may not have a bad air game it is not "awesome". As for KO's Pika has a good number of moves that can KO very well F-smash, U-smash, and D-smash not to mention Thunder.sheik samus pika
I'll go pika
This hint does not match with Lucario.Although, the character struggles to get KOs if you don't keep the few KO attacks fresh.
Really? To me, Samus on the surface looks like a clumsy character who can't do much.This was Samus from a distance and from someone with a non-tourney bias, and you went far too deep into it. I know this and you know this, but someone picking up Samus without any knowledge of the tournament scene or any previous knowledge of Melee would not realize this and consider her to be a very decent character. It is only after one truly delves into her character does one truly discover all of her flaws.
Yoshi only really has a few kill moves that work wellMultiple KO moves:
P.Trainer
Yoshi
This is true. Long range does not automatically mean projectile, although projectiles are included in long range. I suppose I should have included Marth and Ike in my summary due to their disjointed sword-boxes. But then again, neither of them have any problems getting KOs, so it's sort of a moot point.I want everyone to note he does NOT say "Projectile." Its "Long Range."
...Let's look at Lucario's RELIABLE kill moves (not the situational ones, which everyone has)This hint does not match with Lucario.
Lucario can kill with tons of his moves, and thus doesn't suffer from moves becoming stale. This hint does however, apply to Samus.
Meh, could go either way, really. Hell, if you look at the Samus threads (the old ones), there was a thread of newbies telling how they liked the new Samus for such-and-such reasons, while the older members tried to reason with them how she sucked.Really? To me, Samus on the surface looks like a clumsy character who can't do much.
In my experience, Dsmash is a pretty mean killer too.Yoshi only really has a few kill moves that work well
Up smash ( have fun trying to get to actually kill since its one of yoshi best moves and is used a lot)
Over Smash (It is a great move however setting up for it is very difficult as well as spacing for it)
U air ( great move can usually kill unless you really spam it but if your not circulating through all of Yoshi's great air move then theres a problem)
All the rest of the moves can kill but you almost have to never use them which is hard when facing some of the cast. So when compared to some of the other people on your list of the people it could be they have the same if not more.
This is your best, point but you totally ignore the fact that Lucario is ranked in the top 10 in tournaments, according to Ankoku. While he may slip by the "underestimated" and "looks horrible" clues, he in no way qualifies for "this character can become a force to reckon with in the future." He's already there.The topic never says anything about him being a truly horrible character. You have to think outside the box. They said that the character is underestimated, yes. They said that this character SEEMS horrible ON THE SURFACE. Lucario definitely seems horrible on the surface, as if you play him for your first time without knowing anything about him, you WILL hate him because the first thing you notice is that he has no knockback and his recovery move does no damage.
Dsmash? Yoshi's most nerfed move? Weird. :-/In my experience, Dsmash is a pretty mean killer too.
I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this, though, since I don't play Yoshi and don't particularly like him. I still think Samus or Peach fit better overall.
....Well, crap. Congratulations. You've completely shut down my argument. Back to the drawing board, then.This is your best, point but you totally ignore the fact that Lucario is ranked in the top 10 in tournaments, according to Ankoku. While he may slip by the "underestimated" and "looks horrible" clues, he in no way qualifies for "this character can become a force to reckon with in the future." He's already there.
Let's start with everyone who's left.This character is yet another underestimated one, who on the surface seems to be horrible. But in reality, with enough persistance, this character can become a force to reckon with in the future. With a strong long range game and an awesome aerial game that can open up plenty of combos if you know how to do it right, this character can keep up with the rest. This character's short range game, while at first may seem to be the character's weakest attribute, is actually quite strong if you know how to use it well. Although, the character struggles to get KOs if you don't keep the few KO attacks fresh.
As soon as you pick up any other character with a ranged game you learn how flawed her projectiles game is.This was Samus from a distance and from someone with a non-tourney bias, and you went far too deep into it. I know this and you know this, but someone picking up Samus without any knowledge of the tournament scene or any previous knowledge of Melee would not realize this and consider her to be a very decent character. It is only after one truly delves into her character does one truly discover all of her flaws.
Combo? Combo? Lucario cannot "combo better than the majority of the cast." He can string two hits together or the same move over and over again at low %. That's it. His "combos" are extremely easy to see coming, as they usually start with Lucario jumping at you with Fair, walking towards you with ftilt, or just plain you screwing up and getting behind him/too close so he can nab you with utilt. That's it. His "combos" only work until certain %, after which Fair gets too much knockback to allow a regular followup. His "great combos" are all really strings aside from fair>___, ftilt spam and utilt spam, and many only work at certain %s.
:/
Mindgames are intangible don't bring them up since they rely on a person's reactions.stuff
MmkNo he can't. He still needs mid-high % or for you to be obscenely high % before he can kill you. Until he gets to 100+, he won't be getting any "good" KO ability. Until then, he has to rely on his "combos" to get your % much higher than his so he can KO you when the time comes. However, with our constant use of Fsmash and Aura Sphere, we have to really think hard about our options when its time to go for the kill.
Far more beats it. Luigi can stop it with a Nair.Aura Sphere's priority goes up with his damage. Only certain projectiles will negate/clash it out at any %. Pikmin and Grenades are the main ones, I believe.
Of course not but its much more versatile than Samus, Link and Sonic.His roll being good doesn't mean anything. Yes, it's fast, but you still can't spam it or else you'll become predictable.
I had never used Lucario until recently and I was quite sure he as not horrible on the surface.The topic never says anything about him being a truly horrible character. You have to think outside the box. They said that the character is underestimated, yes. They said that this character SEEMS horrible ON THE SURFACE. Lucario definitely seems horrible on the surface, as if you play him for your first time without knowing anything about him, you WILL hate him because the first thing you notice is that he has no knockback and his recovery move does no damage.
I mean joined smashboards.Nope, I've been tracking this since Brawl's original release date.
Utilt=averageNot noticeable at first. His attacks are very quick. Look at his fair, nair, uair, ftilt,bair, jab*combo, dash attack, SideB, DownB, UpB, dsmash, utilt, and dtilt and then tell me that he's slow. Most of his moves are very quick.
Read the above.Of course when you compare him to Marth who's start-up is around -3 frames, you notice it, but if you just look at Sonic himself, his moves are VERY quick (aside from fsmash, which is the most noticeable, and possibly the only move that really is "slow.")
His attacks are all up close.Priority doesn't matter at a distance.
As you said we are looking on the surface. And trust me, when the game first came out thats what everyone was looking at.Sonic's attacks and movement speed hit before the opponent can react due to their speed, as no "n00b" will have the insane reaction time needed in order to outspace him. Hell, I go occasionally/went to this forum in which they had no real knowledge of the tournament scene, and everyone thought Sonic wasn't the best, but thought he was definitely a middle-of-the-road character due to his incredible movement speed and attacks.
Yet unlike Lucario, Sonic was still being judged as low or bottom even by the top players.The biggest reason that Sonic is considered to be "low" and "bottom" is because of it being a trend. Everyone says it. The best players say it. All the tier lists say it. It must be true. However, if you look back at the game before the American release, everyone was talking about how Sonic would be mid-tier. Remember when people thought Pit would be the new Falco because of his quick attacks and very spammable arrows? Lucario's placement is usually "upper-mid" only by the knowledgeable players. Often, his placement is mid-mid by the average casual players.
Actually glide tossing improves her close range game as well as her spacing ablity.Glide tossing does not make her turnips go any farther. The point is that they do not fly far enough to be a long range weapon without Peach stepping into mid-range. =P
IMO we are going too far outside the box.We need to think outside the box, people!
Hehe, gotta keep you in check. ;-)Bleh, back to the drawing board. I'll start all over.
...
Now, let's take out people who only use their good KO moves for KOing purposes...
Peach
Kay, I'm confused again. >>
I think it's Peach.
Or it may be Pit, but meh.
Find it odd or not, but ask around it's my main offensive move. It works for me, and I find it having the best KO rate of all of Yoshi's KO moves.DownB (especially on the ground - the version that is a kill move) is used not uncommonly to mix up Yoshi's typical up close game, which reads (Bair), (either Jab, Jab or Ftilt), Dash, Egg, Grab, etc. or something similar. Stick in a Pound instead of a dash or something to keep things fresh. Then follow up with Uair or something.
Your pretty much right but you really really need to conserve the down smash if you want to kill with it or be able to get the near the edge when you do itIn my experience, Dsmash is a pretty mean killer too.
I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on this, though, since I don't play Yoshi and don't particularly like him. I still think Samus or Peach fit better overall.
Yeah, yoshi's dsmash really won't kill until 160% AND reasonably close to the ledge. Heavier characters it can get higher. It's definitely not a kill move IMO.Your pretty much right but you really really need to conserve the down smash if you want to kill with it or be able to get the near the edge when you do it
Sheik has practically no long range attacks.NO way 13 is anyone but Sheik, I'm calling it right now.
Greatest. Avatar. Ever.NO way 13 is anyone but Sheik, I'm calling it right now.
seconded.Greatest. Avatar. Ever.
Eh I am probably off on it.ffs its pretty obvious its not lucario lol let it die already...
btw sonics uair isnt average speed, although i dont have the frame measurement things, i wouldnt be surprised if it was 1-2 frames, i cant see a frame in 1/4 speed training where the attack starts up before the hitbox comes out