Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[Equus]

The "useful, but difficult technique" hint is throwing me off the most.

First, I thought Lucario because his Reverse Double Team is useful for recovering from gimpers and closing gaps with projectile spammers, but the timing is too tricky for a lot of players. Problem: his approach and aerial games aren't that bad.

So now my guesses are with Kirby (Kirbycide is avoidable and somewhat predictable), Bowser (Chain Grab can be DI'd out of) and Pikachu (Quick Attack Cancel also has tricky timing) when it comes to that hint.

 

[Snail]

The "useful, but difficult technique" hint is throwing me off the most.

First, I thought Lucario because his Reverse Double Team is useful for recovering from gimpers and closing gaps with projectile spammers, but the timing is too tricky for a lot of players. Problem: his approach and aerial games aren't that bad.

So now my guesses are with Kirby (Kirbycide is avoidable and somewhat predictable), Bowser (Chain Grab can be DI'd out of) and Pikachu (Quick Attack Cancel also has tricky timing) when it comes to that hint.

I feel like it can't be any of those though. Kirby has a great air-game, Bowser's chaingrab doesn't work so it can't count as that one technique, and Pikachu hasn't got a bad approach.

Ice Climbers? :/

 

[kkkoala]

DK's air game isn't good. It's rather bad. fair and dair both suck. He does have two good aerials in bair and upair though. I wouldn't be surprised if it was him, except that he's too good to be in the middle tier.

fair and dair are both very good spikes and u use 1 of them around 90% of the time over sideb, and even if fair doesnt spike, its got decent enough knockback (naturally since its dk) to ko from off the stage at 70%

his uair isnt amasing, it has no range. it has its uses but its not that great. we're obviously in concurace about his bair though.

and his unmentioned nair is a pretty standard seckskick


dk has a good aproach game though since hes got two moves that r awsome projectile cancelers

though he does have a great ability to ko obviously

unusual tech w/dificult real game use? hug & stage lip throw? if they break out easy, most chars could very easily gimp dk from that spot. many people will break out of it too quick in early enough %s for it to be useful enough to move him too far up the teir.

im saying pika

 

[The Halloween Captain]

While the "Bowser's chain grab is escapable" arguement makes sence, I would really like to see a video which counters the one I showed, as I couldn't find a counter chaingrab video for Bowser. Bowser's grab looks like it might be escapable, but like the origonal vid. producer said, its all about the timing. If that is true, then anti-chaingrab arguements might be the result of poor timing rather than actual proof that Bowser's chaingrab can't be done completely successfully.

 

[Snail]

While the "Bowser's chain grab is escapable" arguement makes sence, I would really like to see a video which counters the one I showed, as I couldn't find a counter chaingrab video for Bowser. Bowser's grab looks like it might be escapable, but like the origonal vid. producer said, its all about the timing. If that is true, then anti-chaingrab arguements might be the result of poor timing rather than actual proof that Bowser's chaingrab can't be done completely successfully.

I just read through the thread again and apparently Bowser can still re-grab even if their opponent jumps in the air - however this needs perfect timing, and the chaingrab is pretty much useless now since it doesn't KO nor rack up any damage. It just... stalls. :/

Bowser could be possible. I still don't think he'll move up in the tier list because of this fluke though xD

 

[-Linko-]

Ice Climbers. Difficult strategy with KO potential that few players use = 0->KO chaingrabs.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Ice Climbers. Difficult strategy with KO potential that few players use = 0->KO chaingrabs.

First off, only the infinite chain grab is tough, the normal one is pretty simple. Second, the Ice Climbers don't really have all that KO potential unless you use their "special tactics" which are really not reserved for the elites, as desyncing the Ice Climbers is something even noobs try to learn. Howvever, if the desync is a "difficult tactic" then it would not be easy to KO with the ice climbers.

 

[Theftz22]

Yah, it's pika

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yah, it's pika

QAC is really not reserved for the highest levels of competitive play. However, Pika is still not limited by his approach because of his defencive/camping abilities. He does have a lot of KO potential, but the character must embody all the parts of the clue.

 

[mirkdddlhppr]

Forgive me if I'm just a tard, but isn't DK high tier?

Or maybe Low of High tier...lol.

 

[manhunter098]

I think DK is mid tier, but many people are starting to play him now that his potential is being seen a bit more hes definitely not doomed to mid tier.

 

[Aminar]

It's the Squeejy Luigi. It has to be. He has amazing recovery abilities, good power, speed, and decent weight. Not a clue what this unusual thing is, but Luigi lacks any approach and cannot camp worth a diddly. And he's amazing.

 

[Squidster]

i'm pretty sure its ice climbers... unusual = chain grab or desynching.

Luigi has a fantastic air game and can use projectile to approach
DK is not doomed to mid tier, he counters all the titans and has a good air game and fantastic approach in Bair and tilts
Pika maybe but i don't think QAC is used by most pika players, and he can approach with thunder jolts if anything.

 

[RikotheFoxKid]

Hmm... I'm starting to think it could be Ice Climbers.

In my opinion, it's either Sonic or Ice Climbers. It's most likely Ice Climbers, but I would like having it be Sonic.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Why not Bowser?

Ice Climbers can't KO easily and neither can Sonic. If you use the IC chain-spike as proof of their good KO ability, it would violate the part of the hint saying that the character is good at KO's AND has a difficult technique. This is because if the technique is difficult, normal smashers could not use it to KO easily. You can't say something difficult is easy.

 

[Crizthakidd]

how do pple not see DK being really good since a while back. and the whole tech thats hard, idk by what standards you guys or..?

 

[manhunter098]

Here is a little list that I think people might find helpful. Its basically character rankings based on how well they are placing in tournaments and is pretty much the closest thing we have to a tier list right now.




Most up-to-date rankings, no details: (last updated July 2, 2008)
S: Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede
A: Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Lucario, ROB, Wario, Falco, Olimar
B: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Fox, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Pit
C: Toon Link, Peach, Ness, Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, Samus, Bowser, Ike
D: Jigglypuff, Pokémon Trainer
E: Lucas, Sonic, Ganondorf, Mario, Sheik
U: Link, Yoshi


With this, we can safely say that the COW is not likely to be above B Rank or below D rank. So basically B,C, and D rank are the most likely to contain the character of the week.


That means that our list of characters is narrowed down to as follows.

DK, Fox, Ice Climbers, Kirby, Pit, Peach, Ness, Pikachu, Luigi, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, Samus, Bowser, Ike, Jigglypuff, and Pokemon Trainer.

Next step I will eliminate any characters that definitely have a good aerial game.

So we drop DK, Kirby, Pit, Peach, Ness, Luigi, Zero Suit Samus, Jigglypuff, Pokemon Trainer.

Then we remove characters who have KO problems.

So Samus and Pit (yeah I listed him twice) go.


Now we are left with Fox, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Bowser and Ike. And now I will list them in a column so you can see them easily.




Fox

Ice Climbers

Pikachu

Captain Falcon

Zelda

Bowser

Ike


Apply the rest of the hint as you feel like to these characters.

 

[choknater]

I'm leaning toward Bowser.

 

[Wuss]

I think it's ice climbers. They lend themselves to the last part of the hint, "a strategy that takes a lot of skill but could improve them a lot", the chain grab. Seems possible at least.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

When I play as Bowser, his aerial attacks usually have great results, and I prefer to KO with them, and he doesn't seem to be an incredible character so I would have to deny him my vote.

I would say Fox, cause people are looking at him like Melee Fox ruined rather than adjusting their playstyle, for the most part.

Although, i need some info on this unusual strategy.

 

[BlackSmoke]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=08orVEALkr0
Cross Pikachu off the list, he has a great approach game.

Fox

Ice Climbers

Captain Falcon

Zelda

Bowser

Ike

my moneys on Bowser ,Ike or Falcon since they can KO easily, I'll have to check but I believe Falcon has a good approach. Ike has a terrible approach, then again I know of no really good Ikes from the videos I have seen.

edit: give me a hour ill anaylze some vids of people using these characters and come up with my best verdict.

 

[Timbers]

Yeah the "strategy that is very rarely used" is what threw me. Are ICs desynching really that difficult to pull off? I have never played them extensively, so I'm unaware of this. The amount of CG->spike and infinite CGs I've seen done by IC players kind of throws me on the "difficult to use in realtime" part of the hint.

When I first read it, I was thinking Pit. Looping his arrows (I don't know what they're calling it) is a very strategic use to create openings and get a few good hits on your temporarily stunned opponent, but actually using this effectively I've seen is quite rare, as it does leave you open for a considerable amount of time. His fsmash and bair kill at relatively low percents. Fair kills if you actually chase them off. His air game isn't all that hot though. Nair and uair lack range, and fair/dair are slow. Bair is slow too but kills at surprisingly low percents when sweetspotted. His approach is pretty crappy too. Laggy dash attack. Nair again has bad range and priority, and fair is slow.

It's the first impression I got from the hint, but everyone else seems to be in a disagreement with me, so I'll leave it as opinion and won't try arguing it. xD

 

[RikotheFoxKid]

Part of me still thinks it's Sonic. The other is betting on the Ice Climbers.

I think we should cross off Ike. His air game is pretty decent.

 

[RikotheFoxKid]

Are ICs desynching really that difficult to pull off? I have never played them extensively, so I'm unaware of this.

Yes, it is (in my opinion) very difficult. I have used the Ice Climbers so many times, and never have I desynched unless someone else forced me apart from Nana. Also, when it does happen, she runs straight back to me before I can get away.

 

[BlackSmoke]

Part of me still thinks it's Sonic. The other is betting on the Ice Climbers.

I think we should cross off Ike. His air game is pretty decent.

Ike has some nice aerials now that I looked at it.

 

[Timbers]

Ike's air game is arguably better than his ground game, so to consider his air game as "severely lacking" would be a huge insult to his entire character =d

 

[Kalm]

It's gotta be either Ike or Bowser.

The description of the aerials appearing to be good but actually are lacking makes me lean more toward Ike.
Besides, I think Ike has a tiny bit more trouble approaching than Bowser.

The unusual playstyle sound more like Bowser than it does Ike though. This may be something not many people know about though.

My vote's on Ike in the end, and I'm confident. Bookmarked for quote.

 

[Timbers]

Honestly if it was Ike I think something would have been noted about his somewhat..terrible recovery.

Not to mention his air game was underrated when he was first released, and now is a huge part of his game.

 

[Kalm]

Well, when the bad approach is mentioned I can only think to consider people without a projectile, since those are the kinds of characters that force an approach.
Wario and C. Falcon could probably be good choices.

Otherwise Luigi and Fox seem to come to mind when KO power is mention with approach and air game problems. Luigi has a lot of problems with his air game that aren't easily noticed.

Votes still on Ike.

 

[infomon]

Ice Climbers can't KO easily and neither can Sonic. If you use the IC chain-spike as proof of their good KO ability, it would violate the part of the hint saying that the character is good at KO's AND has a difficult technique. This is because if the technique is difficult, normal smashers could not use it to KO easily. You can't say something difficult is easy.

No, the IC chain grab is not their difficult technique. Desynching is.

So chain-grabbing counts toward their good KO ability. Also, while the chain-spike is one way to KO, it's definitely not the only way. There are other chain-grab KOs, for example Nana throw to Popo up-smash. The IC smashes are quite strong, btw, so even without grabs they can KO. Also their down-tilt sends you far and horizontal, and comes out fast.

BigRick got it right about ICs; he clearly knows them well. Their run is slow and their projectile is kinda lame, so their approach is really lacking. Hence their match-ups against projectile spammers is poor; since ICs need you to come to them (unless you're even slower than them).

Desynching is brutally difficult; not just to pull off, but to use it effectively. Effective desynching can overcome the IC weaknesses; it gives them a good approach and a good air-game, with lots of room for variation.

Disclaimer: I don't know any of the other characters well enough to say why it's not them. So I wouldn't know if anyone else has a crazy-difficult technique that could raise their tier. But it fits the ICs perfectly IMO.

 

[Kalm]

The "unusual" playstyle thing is incredibly offputting to me.

I don't see their chain grabbing tactics as completely unusual, but it certainly is difficult and different. The air game, KO power, and approach is something I couldn't support for them, but the Unusual and difficult hint seems to lean toward them more than anyone else.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Yeah the "strategy that is very rarely used" is what threw me. Are ICs desynching really that difficult to pull off? I have never played them extensively, so I'm unaware of this. The amount of CG->spike and infinite CGs I've seen done by IC players kind of throws me on the "difficult to use in realtime" part of the hint.

Desynching during grabs is easy because landing the grab automatically desynchs the climbers.

The hard part is using desynchs OUTSIDE of chaingrabs in order to set a fully knowing and capable opponent up for a grab. It's hard to fully control a desynch without putting Nana or yourself into a bad situation, let alone controlling a desynch to the point where you dictate your opponents actions and make them fall where you want them.

 

[Mr Mattastic]

Um... Mario?

 

[MiraiGen]

Might be. His Smash attacks are pretty great but I'm not sure if that counts as an "Easy time KOing."

 

[cj.Shark]

this is the only time i do not want it to be my character. stuck in middle tier? Noo! No thank you id rather wait 20 more weeks.

 

[Kitamerby]

...Why do people think the IC's have problems KOing? Their smashes are incredibly powerful, and can be done off a desynched grab. :|

 

[Onxy]

I was thinking Luigi.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

luigi has good approach and good aerials though

 

[Fire!]

Its Mario.

When they say
"although very few people who use this character use the strategy as it is difficult to do in a real match, and require quite a bit of skill." They are talking about FLUDD. And all I could see in my mind was Mario

Although I can't explain his approaches. Fireballs are all he needs.

 

[Kyzon Xin]

DEFINATELLY ZELDA i and her wavebouncing is unused but very very good