Smash Back Room Weekly Character Discussions! FINAL UPDATES: Ness + Lucas. All done!!

[Timbers]

Well, when the bad approach is mentioned I can only think to consider people without a projectile, since those are the kinds of characters that force an approach.
Wario and C. Falcon could probably be good choices.

Otherwise Luigi and Fox seem to come to mind when KO power is mention with approach and air game problems. Luigi has a lot of problems with his air game that aren't easily noticed.

Votes still on Ike.

Wario has one of the best approaches in the game lol. Other characters with great approaches and lack projectiles would be Marth and MK easily. I don't know what having a projectile has to do with an approach.

Desynching during grabs is easy because landing the grab automatically desynchs the climbers.

The hard part is using desynchs OUTSIDE of chaingrabs in order to set a fully knowing and capable opponent up for a grab. It's hard to fully control a desynch without putting Nana or yourself into a bad situation, let alone controlling a desynch to the point where you dictate your opponents actions and make them fall where you want them.

Thanks for explaining this.

DEFINATELLY ZELDA i and her wavebouncing is unused but very very good

Everything does sound like it could be Zelda until the unused tech is mentioned. She doesn't have anything overly difficult, yet can completely push her up the tiers if it's mastered. Her B-sticking is pretty lame, and I don't think having mastery of Sheik is what they mean <.<

 

[BISON]

I really think it could be something along the lines of Lucas. The technique that people don't use could be B-Sticking or Zap Jumping both of which are...somewhat hard to use effectively in a match especially the latter. He is doomed to mid-tier because of how some if not most characters can chain grab him or some such nonsense, I haven't actually read anything about that but I've seen it mentioned around

 

[Timbers]

I really think it could be something along the lines of Lucas. The technique that people don't use could be B-Sticking or Zap Jumping both of which are...somewhat hard to use effectively in a match especially the latter. He is doomed to mid-tier because of how some if not most characters can chain grab him or some such nonsense, I haven't actually read anything about that but I've seen it mentioned around

Lucas doesn't really lack an approach game though. sh fair/nair and ftilt are both viable approaches, and pkfire aids him in any approach he may need to make. I haven't played Lucas to a large extent, but I'm quite sure his fulljumped dair is another good approach for him, especially as it sets up openings.

Everything else seems to fit him like a glove though.

 

[Retlaf]

Dare I say Yoshi? D:

Dragonic Reverse?

 

[Negi-Kun]

I have to say Mario.

 

[Shök]

OK, what have we got here?

This character may be doomed to mid tier because despite all the incredible strengths and abilities that this character possesses, the character is lacking any sort of approach game, and the character's air game, which seems great on the surface, is actually severely lacking. Although, if the player can use this character well, these flaws may not actually be too much of a disadvantage because this character can KO without much of a problem. In the future, this character could very easily rise in the tiers and tournament rankings if more players learn how to use the character well. Also, there is an unusual strategy that is not often used that can be taken to balance this character's weaknesses, although very few people who use this character use the strategy as it is difficult to do in a real match, and require quite a bit of skill.

Who's left , in order of tourney strength?

Marth
Lucario
Wario
Olimar
Donkey Kong
Fox
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Peach
Ness
Pikachu
Luigi
Captain Falcon
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Samus
Bowser
Ike
Jigglypuff
Pokémon Trainer
Lucas
Sonic
Mario
Sheik
Yoshi

Mid Tier...
Probably between Olimar and CF (IMO) but maybe some others too.

So I'll get rid of those, but with a reason.

Marth-DB is an approach, Air game is ownage all the way through and no "Hidden Strategy"
Lucario-SHDF is strong, linke Marth's, has that for an approach game.
Wario-His bike for approach
Olimar-Air game is solid
Donkey Kong
Fox
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Peach
Ness
Pikachu
Luigi
Captain Falcon-Raptor Boost
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Samus-Bad. Very bad, especially air game
Bowser-Lawlz
Ike-Air game devastating? I don't think so
Jigglypuff-WOP is hard to land and no Great Strengths
Pokémon Trainer-Ughhh, no. has squirtle side b approach
Lucas-Many approach options
Sonic-Has a good approach with his side b
Mario
Sheik-Air game never was good
Yoshi-LMAO

Now who have we got?

Donkey Kong
Fox
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Peach
Ness
Pikachu
Luigi
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Mario

Who doesn't Lack an approach Game?

Donkey Kong
Fox-Side B
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Peach-Side B
Ness-Same as lucas
Pikachu-Side B
Luigi-Torrrrrnnnnado!!!
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Mario

Now, who has a good/bad Air game?

Donkey Kong-SHDB*!!!! Yayyy
Ice Climbers-Two hammers, but air game is so akward, i would qualify it as the worst in the game (synced).
Kirby-Nair Looks amazing...but uhhh.....
Pit-Tough one, his air game looks shiny, but is crap
Zelda-lightning kicks are as hard as the knee to sweetspot
Zero Suit Samus-not really
Mario-SHDU*, but no more

*Short Hop Double...

And who has amazing strengths and no trouble to KO?

Ice Climbers-Two Characters at once, ko is guaranteed with smashes @ high %
Pit-Recovery and edgeguarding is great
Zelda-Power, fireballz no prob KOing
Mario-Not that much

Now The ICs, Pit, and Zelda are my best guesses.

But the ICs have desyncing which is hard to do in a real match without wavedashing o_O

Well, now we wait.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Dare I say Yoshi? D:

Dragonic Reverse?

The thing is, aside from the unusual tech and KO ability, nothing really fits Yoshi.

As far as I know, Yoshi is low tier(although, granted he deserves to be higher). Also his approach is rather good and air game is no slouch either. I think Yoshi has like the 2nd best Bair in the game, behind GaW of course.

 

[Azzizaz]

So much of what SHOK said was horribly wrong.....

 

[Timbers]

So much of what SHOK said was horribly wrong.....

Yeah..I'm gonna have to agree. I feel kind of bad you spent that much time typing that up.

 

[BigRick]

Thanks for the support infzy, I'll now do a breakdown of the entire hint if there's still doubters out there.

This character may be doomed to mid tier because despite all the incredible strengths and abilities that this character possesses

Tournament results have a big impact on the tier list... the fact that there is not many IC players out there is the reason why they might be doomed to mid tier. In this portion SP clearly states that the character is good (incredible strength and abilities).

the character is lacking any sort of approach game, and the character's air game, which seems great on the surface, is actually severely lacking.

I already covered this portion already. Fits ICs pretty well.

Although, if the player can use this character well, these flaws may not actually be too much of a disadvantage because this character can KO without much of a problem.

''Using the character well'' probably means being able to do the infinite chaingrabs. When you can do that you can KO while using ICs without much of a problem (1 grab = KO). Who cares if you can't really approach while all you have to do is land that one grab.

Bowser has lots of KO power but he's not a great char so it's still hard to KO with him. You can't put that KO power to use if you keep getting smacked around like a punching bag.

In the future, this character could very easily rise in the tiers and tournament rankings if more players learn how to use the character well.

If there's more good IC players IC can easily climb the tiers. Think about what happened in Melee.

Also, there is an unusual strategy that is not often used that can be taken to balance this character's weaknesses, although very few people who use this character use the strategy as it is difficult to do in a real match, and require quite a bit of skill.

Unusual strategy would be desynching. Desynching outside of grabs. Doing stuff like nanapult blizzard setups into grab. Also it's not too hard to learn in Training mode, however using it in real matches is a real pain.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Thanks for the support infzy, I'll now do a breakdown of the entire hint if there's still doubters out there.



Tournament results have a big impact on the tier list... the fact that there is not many IC players out there is the reason why they might be doomed to mid tier. In this portion SP clearly states that the character is good (incredible strength and abilities).



I already covered this portion already. Fits ICs pretty well.



''Using the character well'' probably means being able to do the infinite chaingrabs. When you can do that you can KO while using ICs without much of a problem (1 grab = KO). Who cares if you can't really approach while all you have to do is land that one grab.

Bowser has lots of KO power but he's not a great char so it's still hard to KO with him. You can't put that KO power to use if you keep getting smacked around like a punching bag.



If there's more good IC players IC can easily climb the tiers. Think about what happened in Melee.



Unusual strategy would be desynching. Desynching outside of grabs. Doing stuff like nanapult blizzard setups into grab. Also it's not too hard to learn in Training mode, however using it in real matches is a real pain.

Thank you, BigRick.

 

[Olimarman]

Mid Tier...
Probably between Olimar and CF (IMO) but maybe some others too.

Olimar is high tier, easy to approach with and his air game is great. Its not him. As for CF, it would be.

 

[choknater]

I'd still lean toward Bowser because for that 'unusual technique' I was thinking about the Klaw jumps.

Anyway, a lot of people might be right about IC's.... except desynching effectively is very EASY for me lmao. (Meh, I've played them since Melee and the continuous desynch timing is actually similar, if not easier than melee. So it might be just me.)

I still say Bowser xD though I am probably wrong.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Anyway, a lot of people might be right about IC's.... except desynching effectively is very EASY for me lmao. (Meh, I've played them since Melee and the continuous desynch timing is actually similar, if not easier than melee. So it might be just me.)

well, of course it easier for you. You're Choknater. =D

 

[YoshiBomb]

I'm just gonna say Yoshi cause it might be

 

[Equus]

Choknater beat me to it! T-T
Like they said, I see how it could be Ice Climbers, but I still haven't eliminated Bowser.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

IC's dont really have an unusual tech, and desynching is a simple as holding B in the beggining of the match

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Guys, its actually Mewtwo this time around. Trust me.

 

[Kalm]

It would be very unusual and difficult to play Mewtwo in brawl, wouldn't it?

 

[RikotheFoxKid]

It would be very unusual and difficult to play Mewtwo in brawl, wouldn't it?

Yeah. I'd give 100 bucks to someone who could play as Mewtwo in Brawl and then I'd ask them how they did it.

 

[Will_]

Mewtwo>Lucario tbfh.

Mwa ha ha ha ha>TAH! HUWAGH! THE AURA!

 

[infomon]

IC's dont really have an unusual tech, and desynching is a simple as holding B in the beggining of the match

No, I think that's a very naive and simplistic view of desynching. You don't want to be desynched the entire match!! That nerfs your recovery, for example :-) You want to be able to do it on a whim when it's useful. Using desynching *effectively* is very difficult in a real match. You have to master their timing and spacing and understand how Nana reacts. Maybe Choknater's pro at it, but I'd say it takes a lot of mastery to be a champ at ICs. Most IC mains really don't have desynching down, even if they can pull off all the crazy chaingrabs. Just IMO...

 

[RathyOro]

I still say Bowser. I haven't thought about it much, but I think he makes more sense than ICs.

 

[UnSaxon51]

I like SHOK's basic layout, though I don't know if I agree with his reasoning.

First, he used the ranking order from Ankoku's tournament ranking list (as of 6/28/08), so I'm not arguing with that. However, I would say middle range is basically the C Rank according to that thread, but I'm willing to include the B Rank, too, which extends his above list from Donkey Kong to Pokemon Trainer.

Now let's address the approach and air game... A "*" designates someone who semi-matches the hint criteria.

Donkey Kong - Bair covers both. (though his air game doesn't exactly scream "Wow!")
Fox - Illusion/Shine good for approach, good air game
*Ice Climbers - Squall and Ice make decent approach, but not great. Aerials look better than they are.
Kirby - Excellent approach with dash attack, Hammer, and Fair/Bair. Nair is only real weak air attack.
*Pit - Angel Ring is an OK approach, as is wingdashing. Most aerials are nice, but looke like they should do more.
Peach - Bomber and floating make for great approach, and aerials are still good.
*Ness - Approach is a bit lacking IMO. Air game is decent.
Pikachu - Thunder Jolt is one of the best approach projectiles. Also has an excellent air game.
Luigi - Probably the best all-around aerial attacks in the game, which also make for excellent approach.
Captain Falcon - Aerials are touchier than in Melee, but good when connected. Approach is not as good as it used to be.
Zelda - Her approach is tricky, but decent, and her aerials are monstrous.
Zero Suit Samus - Decent approach game, depending on match-up. Except for Dair, has excellent aerial game.
*Samus - Zair is nice approach, but only for taller characters. Aerials seem much weaker than they should.
*Bowser - Very, very difficult approach, even with Koopa hop. Air game would be better if not for terrible lag (except Fair)
Ike - Quick Draw is good, but predictable as an approach. All aerials are crazy strong, if mostly slow.
Jigglypuff - WOP comes from great air game, and also makes for a fairly good approach.
Pokémon Trainer - Dependent on Pokemon that is out. Squirtle has no problem with aerials or approach. Ivysaur is decent at both. Charizard's approach is pretty bad, but his air game is OK.

Now, from those left over, let's address KO potential:

Ice Climbers - with both climbers: very good, with one: so-so
Pit- decent
Ness - mostly good
Samus - good, but requires some setup for most.
Bowser - what can't he KO with?

From just these criteria, I'd be willing to put my money down on Bowser, but then we get the last requirement: "unusual strategy". Here are some options and my guesses in order.

5. Pit: I can only guess wingdashing for the strategy, but he only sort of met the initial qualifications anyway.

4. Ness: I might put Ness higher, but I honestly don't know what sort of strategy he would use.

3. Samus: Zair and Missile Cancelling don't take a lot of skill to use, but they take practice to use correctly.

2. Bowser: Koopa Hopping improves his dismal approach, but it's not terribly difficult to learn or to use.

1. Ice Climbers: They really are the best fit for this hint. De-synching is one of the hardest techniques to pull off (that I'm aware of) but it also offers some of the greatest benefits. Also, chaingrab = win.

Wow, that was way longer than I expected.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Yeah. I'd give 100 bucks to someone who could play as Mewtwo in Brawl and then I'd ask them how they did it.

If Mewtwo were in Brawl I'd play him...

 

[Moy]

If Mewtwo were in Brawl I'd play him...

Yeah, so would I.

#12 is probably IC's with the chaingrab and powerful smashes.

 

[SNO4]

Basically, once you are grabbed by a very good IC main, you're screwed right? That's like impossible to get out of...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Could be Zelda... and switching to shiek or Farore's wind could be the technique.

Her approach game isn't non-existent, like the first post says... but it's inferior to her defensive game.... I'm not entirely sure if the back room can see this or not though... I'd like to think they are smart enough to, but I'll leave the option open.

Her aerials SEEM beastly, but require sweetspotting and leave blindspots at ALL the diagonals.

Zelda is NOT doomed to mid tier... no way in hell. but that doesn't mean the back room sees it that way, so I still leave the option open.

She's not very popular... so the "more people picking this character up" bit supports this.

almost all of her moves are KO moves... like the OP states.

switching to shiek covers a lot of her weaknesses, yet less than half of the zelda mains are good enough with shiek to dual main.

No mention of Din's fire and only vague possible mention of transform... but, maybe being to obvious would be too obvious.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Mario, DK, or Ike

just because i want Ike to be revealed I'll go Ike

 

[Rhubarbo]

Ice Climbers
Ike
Lucario
DK

 

[Cyan_]

I'm gonna go with Zelda or DK.

 

[BigRick]

Could be Zelda... and switching to shiek or Farore's wind could be the technique.

My 5 year old niece can switch from zelda to shiek... this is not a joke. The technique should require skill to use. Heck, the notion of skill requirement wasn't even part of the original hint, SP added it so you can believe that it's important that the character fits the aspect.

Ppl think that Bowser fits the bill because they dont seem to understand the difference between having KO power and being able to KO easily. In SP's post it talks about KOing without much problem, it doesn't say anything about KO Power.

It is much more easier to KO with Meta Knight than Bowser even though Bowser has much more KO power than Meta Knight.

Also SP says in his hint ''This character may be doomed to mid tier because despite all the incredible strengths and abilities that this character possesses...''

Think about it, Bowser doesn't have any incredible strength or ability... he's fat, he's slow, has lag on many moves and he doesnt have great hitboxes. Only thing he has is KO power but there's many that have more KO power than him.

Also Bowser fits more into low tier status... he doesnt have good results so far, and he has alot of bad matchups. Yes he does have an unusual technique that would be hard to use, but he doesnt even fit into the first parts of the hint.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ok, to the 3 consecutive people who said dk, no, he has a good air game and a good approach, and his air game looks like crap on paper

 

[CasMat]

I would say it's pikachu considering his air game looks good but is somewhat bad, and the QAC is certainly an unusual tech which gives pika an approach. Pika gets vertical KOs with ease using thunder, has an amazing side smash with KO power, even his Nair can be used to KO (somewhat). I don't know about the QAC "balancing" his weaknesses as far as his air game goes, but it helps. Also lots of people find the QAC difficult to do in a real match.

 

[Kitamerby]

Ice Climbers
Ike
Lucario
DK

The day Lucario has a bad air game, I'll eat my hat. He's up there with one of the best air games in the entire roster. He is NOT great at outright KOing until mid %, and he is not doomed to mid tier. He has an incredible approach, and while his playstyle is versatile, it is NOT truly unusual. He doesn't have any amazing techs to cover his weaknesses (if he has any), and absolutely does not fit the criterion.

DK has many approach options, is a tier-killer, and is not doomed to mid tier. He does not have an amazing weakness-covering techs.
Ike has no weakness-covering techs. Are you even READING the post?

I would say it's pikachu considering his air game looks good but is somewhat bad, and the QAC is certainly an unusual tech which gives pika an approach. Pika gets vertical KOs with ease using thunder, has an amazing side smash with KO power, even his Nair can be used to KO (somewhat). I don't know about the QAC "balancing" his weaknesses as far as his air game goes, but it helps. Also lots of people find the QAC difficult to do in a real match.

His air game is awesome, he has great approach, his style isn't too unusual, and he isn't doomed to mid-tier.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

My 5 year old niece can switch from zelda to shiek... this is not a joke. The technique should require skill to use. Heck, the notion of skill requirement wasn't even part of the original hint, SP added it so you can believe that it's important that the character fits the aspect.

Umm... it does. you have to actually be compitent with shiek and know how to use both in tandem effectively.

 

[CasMat]

Not sure how to delete posts here...

 

[CasMat]

His air game is awesome, he has great approach, his style isn't too unusual, and he isn't doomed to mid-tier.

Please explain in detail, besides the doomed to mid-tier part.


Edit: Here, I'll go first and you correct me when you see this.

What are pika's approach options? His aerials aren't the longest range, and it's unbelievably predictable to see a pikachu attempt an aerial approach. His Fair might look good, multi hit and all, but again its range is deceptively short and it's only, what, three hits, less if you fast-fall it? Any smart player will hold their shield a half-second longer and go for the counter attack. His Bair is a lagfest unless you full hop it, his Uair is the weakest Bair you'll ever see (it can juggle an idiot though) and his Nair is pretty much a weaker version of jiggly's rest. His Dair can be auto canceled, but it is still easy to defend against and just as predictable as the Fair. When not auto canceled the second hit will surprise some but it is so laaaagggggy. Pikachu's speed does not make him good at approaching if he has no range to back it up (in the air). His range on the ground with the Fsmash is good but it has some startup. His Uptilt is very fast though with okay range, but it is easier used defensively, and the same goes for the Dsmash. The Usmash is good to run into the opponent with, but along with the running attack it is pretty easy to defend against, the Usmash less so if unexpected but it becomes expected very fast. The only real thing he normally has going for him in the approaching department is the ability to crawl under some projectiles. His real saving grace here is the very quick and unpredictable QAC, used sparingly of course. Its instantaneous nature removes the range factor and I know this is a little contradictory of me to use this as a plus point but it is fast enough to surprise anyone not expecting it at the moment. BTW the QAC was the only thing I was describing as unusual.

And who said thunder jolt as the best approach projectile? Ha! It's so slow that any character with a reflector will laugh and everyone else will have an easy time dodging, especially since it has to run along the ground. The only good thing is that you can move mid-air while shooting it. It can't even be spammed since it takes pika so long to shoot it.

 

[Ace55]

And who said thunder jolt as the best approach projectile? Ha! It's so slow that any character with a reflector will laugh and everyone else will have an easy time dodging, especially since it has to run along the ground. The only good thing is that you can move mid-air while shooting it. It can't even be spammed since it takes pika so long to shoot it.

When you can follow your shot and your opponent has to dodge/block/reflect it, guess who has the advantage?

I'm not even gonna try and guess this weeks character, I don't have a clue.

 

[mugwhump]

Obviously, it's Captain Falcon