Smash 4 Advanced Technique: Pivot Cancelling/Turndashing(A New Movement Technique!)

[Katy Parry]

Still... We can see Mario doing it, and I doubt something like this would be glossed over. They intentionally made it easy to do, else they would have caught it, unlike Wavedashing

I think Turncancel/Turn around cancel is a better name, because you are canceling the turn around animation. You really shouldn't be trying to "coin" your own term just because you're the first person who posted the video onto smashboards. (waits for "Oh, I wasn't trying to do that! I was just trying to think of a term that would better fit the community/make more sense/sound better/etc.")

Furthermore *sigh* wavedashing was intentionally left in the game. Sakurai stated this. He wanted people to able to keep the momentum when landing. Sure, he didn't expect it to be used in the manner it is currently used, but it was intentional.

Interesting. But, I'm not sure how you'll use it that well. See, you could just poke with the forward tilt normally. You don't need to run back in that regard. I guess it lets you do an attack out of running but you can only do it if you're running away from an opponent not towards them. It's link of like stutter shot in Awesomenauts. It's nice, but you can just play without it and do fine.

What if you approach with a dash and someone rolls behind you? Dash > Turncancel > Ftilt/Fsmash

For you to normally do something like that in Brawl/PM, you'd have to wait for the turn around to be complete, otherwise you'll just dash attack.

 

[SmashChu]

What if you approach with a dash and someone rolls behind you? Dash > Turncancel > Ftilt/Fsmash

For you to normally do something like that in Brawl/PM, you'd have to wait for the turn around to be complete, otherwise you'll just dash attack.

Down smash or, if you can time it right, running attack. Forward rolls are only invulnerable in the middle and aren't as safe as backrolls. I can see what you're getting at, but it's not like it's going to change much.It's one of those things that's like "Ok, neat" but it wont drastically change how you play and you probably wont need it beyond specific situations.

 

[Katy Parry]

Down smash or, if you can time it right, running attack. Forward rolls are only invulnerable in the middle and aren't as safe as backrolls. I can see what you're getting at, but it's not like it's going to change much.It's one of those things that's like "Ok, neat" but it wont drastically change how you play and you probably wont need it beyond specific situations.

Right, and I never stated it would drastically change anything.

Knowing I have more options, to me, already makes this game better than Brawl.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Is it just me, or is/are a certain poster(s) coming across as almost offended that there is any easy to perform tech? Like by having an easy to pull off technique, we're ruining their game? No one is saying that just because a technique is easy, we'll suddenly become masters. If anything, I think with this technique, my purposed skill level just dropped, because I'm going to have to spend hours retraining myself to implement this technique into my repertoire. Just because a tech is easy to perform doesn't mean that suddenly everyone is going to be hardcore competitive. Not once has anyone said that. So get your panties out of a knot, and realize that just because a tech is easy to perform doesn't mean it's easy to master, and doesn't mean your game is ruined.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

When I heard about this at E3, I dashed to the nearest Smash Bros. game to try it out. I used it playing Mac, and it didn't seem to go as fluently as Mario did in the the video. I think a good name for it would be the Pivot Smash or Pivot Tilt, mainly because I have no imagination.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Is it just me, or is/are a certain poster(s) coming across as almost offended that there is any easy to perform tech? Like by having an easy to pull off technique, we're ruining their game? No one is saying that just because a technique is easy, we'll suddenly become masters. If anything, I think with this technique, my purposed skill level just dropped, because I'm going to have to spend hours retraining myself to implement this technique into my repertoire. Just because a tech is easy to perform doesn't mean that suddenly everyone is going to be hardcore competitive. Not once has anyone said that. So get your panties out of a knot, and realize that just because a tech is easy to perform doesn't mean it's easy to master, and doesn't mean your game is ruined.

There are a great deal of techniques that are easy to do and hard to master. Pivot Cancelling isnt the first. What I'm saying is that this tech isn't as significant as most of you think it is. In certain scenarios, this tech is useless.

And its kinda sucky for characters with slow dashes and tilts. And it gets countered pretty handily by rushdown and projectiles.

 

[Vkrm]

What distinguishes this from the traditional pivoting that's present in 64 and melee? (And maybe brawl?)

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

There are a great deal of techniques that are easy to do and hard to master. Pivot Cancelling isnt the first. What I'm saying is that this tech isn't as significant as most of you think it is. In certain scenarios, this tech is useless.

And its kinda sucky for characters with slow dashes and tilts. And it gets countered pretty handily by rushdown and projectiles.

That could be argued up and down all day long. Some people act like Wavedashing consistently is the easiest thing in the world to do, but many others disagree. L-cancelling is also a severe pain in the *** to perform, but that's because of the sharp timing needed to pull it off, combined with the fact that you need to do it with EVERY SINGLE AERIAL EVER. And trying to do that in the middle of a heated fight? Yeah, L-cancelling might be one button, but it's still significantly difficult to pull off.

And yeah, I doubt Pivot Cancelling will be a total game changer, but to me, it seems to have enough usage to make it viable for some things. And would you rather it wasn't in the game? To me, keeping it in the game just goes to show how Sakurai is trying to bridge the yawning chasm between casual and competitive.

And I know some people really hate that.

 

[JV5Chris]

For the first time since Melee you can universally combine a slide with any neutral ground, grab, or Smash attack. Shouldn't this be a more heated discussion? ... not that I mind

I guess either perspectives have changed or some are putting aside prior complaints to see how it plays out in Smash 4.

What distinguishes this from the traditional pivoting that's present in 64 and melee? (And maybe brawl?)

From the looks of it, the retained momentum.

 

[Soul.]

Item Tossing functions like Glide Tossing in a way. If that's in the final version of both versions, characters like Diddy Kong are going to like this technique. Pivot Tilts and Smashes could be useful.

 

[pizzapie7]

Is it just me, or is/are a certain poster(s) coming across as almost offended that there is any easy to perform tech? Like by having an easy to pull off technique, we're ruining their game? No one is saying that just because a technique is easy, we'll suddenly become masters. If anything, I think with this technique, my purposed skill level just dropped, because I'm going to have to spend hours retraining myself to implement this technique into my repertoire. Just because a tech is easy to perform doesn't mean that suddenly everyone is going to be hardcore competitive. Not once has anyone said that. So get your panties out of a knot, and realize that just because a tech is easy to perform doesn't mean it's easy to master, and doesn't mean your game is ruined.

I think it's mostly just the reaction to all the people who have posted "Oh my god tech is so hard and so stupid and I don't have the dexterity or lack the mental fortitude to practice for a half hour qq" about things simplistic as wavedashing see something that is slightly easier and all hop on board. My tech is absolute **** but at least I can man up and say that most of the time I spend practicing tech I'm going through the motions and I'd rather just be 4 stocking CPUs. Not anyone who you're referring to since I haven't posted in this thread yet, but I think it's probably the fact that you're buying into an illusion of Sakurai narrowing the skill gap when nothing has really changed at all.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I think it's mostly just the reaction to all the people who have posted "Oh my god tech is so hard and so stupid and I don't have the dexterity or lack the mental fortitude to practice for a half hour qq" about things simplistic as wavedashing and l-cancelling see something that is slightly easier and all hop on board. My tech is absolute **** but at least I can man up and say that most of the time I spend practicing tech I'm going through the motions and I'd rather just be 4 stocking CPUs. Not anyone who you're referring to since I haven't posted in this thread yet, but I think it's probably the fact that you're buying into an illusion of Sakurai narrowing the skill gap when nothing has really changed at all.

Half-hour of practice? See, again, some people say, "Oh Wavedashing and L-cancelling are so easy, how can you not do it, I could do it the first time I picked up a controller, but tech skill isn't important but it is, but it isn't, but it is," ect, ad nauseum. Well, congradu-*****ing-lations on having such dexterity, but just because you can do it doesn't mean the majority of people can, nor do they want to take the amount of time it would take to learn it. If I want something so heavily tech based, I'll go play BlazBlue or Persona 4 Arena.

And I never said the skill gap itself is narrowed. No one seems to be listening to me. Just because the tech is EASY TO DO doesn't mean that it is EASY TO MASTER. Those are completely separate things. I'm celebrating the fact that I no longer have to spend countless hours trying to learn how to do things, and more time practicing the practical applications. I'd much rather spend hours and hours practicing situations in which to use a technique and how it will improve my gameplay, then spend double that time, half of which is just trying to actually perform the d**mned technique consistently. And yet, that alone seems to have people upset, like it's an insult that anything dare be mechanically easier. Why is this such an issue?

 

[pizzapie7]

Half-hour of practice? See, again, some people say, "Oh Wavedashing and L-cancelling are so easy, how can you not do it, I could do it the first time I picked up a controller, but tech skill isn't important but it is, but it isn't, but it is," ect, ad nauseum. Well, congradu-*****ing-lations on having such dexterity, but just because you can do it doesn't mean the majority of people can, nor do they want to take the amount of time it would take to learn it. If I want something so heavily tech based, I'll go play BlazBlue or Persona 4 Arena.

And I never said the skill gap itself is narrowed. No one seems to be listening to me. Just because the tech is EASY TO DO doesn't mean that it is EASY TO MASTER. Those are completely separate things. I'm celebrating the fact that I no longer have to spend countless hours trying to learn how to do things, and more time practicing the practical applications. I'd much rather spend hours and hours practicing situations in which to use a technique and how it will improve my gameplay, then spend double that time, half of which is just trying to actually perform the d**mned technique consistently. And yet, that alone seems to have people upset, like it's an insult that anything dare be mechanically easier. Why is this such an issue?

You said a few posts up that it's Sakurai trying to "bridge the yawning chasm between competitive and casual." Such a chasm is always going to exist and this does next to nothing. You're going to spend the same amount of time practicing regardless of whether or not it takes less mechanical skill. All you're basically admitting to is you don't want to be arsed with fine tuning your finger movements. Which is totally fair, I don't blame you. I ****ing play Peach. Many people are comfortable with putting in that work.

To some people this is an insult as this is just another reminder that this series has trended more and more casual since 2001 and that people like yourself celebrating this new "easy" tech is the reason why. I think it's neat, personally. But if you're getting so heated you should at least be able to understand why people are getting angry with you.

 

[mimgrim]

Hum diddle dee dum.

So basically the gist is that you run and while running you turnaround while in the turnaround animation you can cancel it with a tilt, smash, jab, item throw, grab, and I presume Specials but you can do these attack while still facing the way you were actually running by pushing the control stick back the way you were running while still in then turnaround animation and you gain a bit of a slide as well. (FYI I'm not actually asking, just organizing my thoughts).

Basically it is both a harder and easier form of Dash Canceling. Harder as in it requires more inputs to do, even if it is trivial in the long run it is still technically harder, but easier in that preforming tilts out of it are easier to do since the C-stick seems to be the only easy way to do Smashes out of it.

It is definitely not that much of a momentum options. But it makes your opponent to respect you more when running.

I could only imagine how awesome this technique could be with a bigger Dash Dance lol.

 

[Bladeviper]

Hum diddle dee dum.

So basically the gist is that you run and while running you turnaround while in the turnaround animation you can cancel it with a tilt, smash, jab, item throw, grab, and I presume Specials but you can do these attack while still facing the way you were actually running by pushing the control stick back the way you were running while still in then turnaround animation and you gain a bit of a slide as well. (FYI I'm not actually asking, just organizing my thoughts).

Basically it is both a harder and easier form of Dash Canceling. Harder as in it requires more inputs to do, even if it is trivial in the long run it is still technically harder, but easier in that preforming tilts out of it are easier to do since the C-stick seems to be the only easy way to do Smashes out of it.

It is definitely not that much of a momentum options. But it makes your opponent to respect you more when running.

I could only imagine how awesome this technique could be with a bigger Dash Dance lol.

c-stick is not the only way to do it from what ive heard, some people have said they were able to do it on the 3ds version which means you should be able to do it without the c-stick on the wii u. They said it was done by trying to use a smash attack during the turnaround animation

 

[mimgrim]

c-stick is not the only way to do it from what ive heard, some people have said they were able to do it on the 3ds version which means you should be able to do it without the c-stick on the wii u. They said it was done by trying to use a smash attack during the turnaround animation

I never said it was the only way to do it with a Smash attack?

I said it was the only easy way.

 

[Bladeviper]

I never said it was the only way to do it with a Smash attack?

I said it was the only easy way.

sorry i missed the word, ive been up too damn long

 

[PCHU]

Half-hour of practice? See, again, some people say, "Oh Wavedashing and L-cancelling are so easy, how can you not do it, I could do it the first time I picked up a controller, but tech skill isn't important but it is, but it isn't, but it is," ect, ad nauseum. Well, congradu-*****ing-lations on having such dexterity, but just because you can do it doesn't mean the majority of people can, nor do they want to take the amount of time it would take to learn it. If I want something so heavily tech based, I'll go play BlazBlue or Persona 4 Arena.

And I never said the skill gap itself is narrowed. No one seems to be listening to me. Just because the tech is EASY TO DO doesn't mean that it is EASY TO MASTER. Those are completely separate things. I'm celebrating the fact that I no longer have to spend countless hours trying to learn how to do things, and more time practicing the practical applications. I'd much rather spend hours and hours practicing situations in which to use a technique and how it will improve my gameplay, then spend double that time, half of which is just trying to actually perform the d**mned technique consistently. And yet, that alone seems to have people upset, like it's an insult that anything dare be mechanically easier. Why is this such an issue?

I dunno.
It took me a bit to learn the techs and whatnot, but that was back when I was actually learning how to play the game well, and by that, I mean I didn't really know how to fight (getting reads and the like), so I got bodied.
The flashy stuff with Fox was the most time consuming, but l-canceling I learned in about 30 minutes (and it ain't even necessary to learn that).
After a little while, it just becomes second nature and you don't even care (well, you do, but still).

It's not bad that something is mechanically easy, but the call-outs are coming from the fact that other people complain quite a bit about these other (optional) techniques being tough to perform although there was no noticeable outcry in the days of Melee that anything was too hard (at least, from what I've heard).
I've heard more complaints about DACUS (which I still fail from time to time because it's more input and timing-heavy) than anything else.
It seems like people are flipping out every other second about something being too hard or requiring arbitrary inputs when I've never really cared, I just practiced it if I wanted to learn it and I either used it in battle or found other ways to fight because that technique was unreliable in my playstyle (seriously, quadruple shine -> SHFFL drillshine -> usmash ain't necessary, but man does it look beautiful).

On a side note, Tager in BlazBlue really ain't that tough (in my eyes).
The hardest thing about him was learning to do a standing 360; the rest of his buffers are optional (720 from a jab or standing 720, now THAT'S tough).
I'd say his difficulty level is equal to Jigglypuff's (which doesn't require much, if any, technical skill).

 

[4nace]

This change could actually be quite simple. The Dash Pivot State (turning around during a full dash) could be shorter in Smash 4, allowing players to attack right of it instead of continuing into a dash. This existed in Brawl, but many turn around animations were pretty long so it wasn't a huge tool. However, Captain Falcon had a pretty short dash pivot state, so turnaround into Jab was a pretty solid tool.

In the Smash series, you cannot attack during the Dash Pivot State, so your input during the turn is buffered into an attack. If the Dash Pivot State is short enough, turning then immediately attacking should work (Brawl had a 10 frame buffer IIRC, which is a long time and inputting an attack 10 frames before the Dash Pivot ends should be very easy).

Now the other video linked is Mario attacking out of the Dash Stop. My guess would be that is a full Dash Stop (from a full dash, not the start of the dash). Perhaps in Smash 4, they changed it so you cannot attack during that state. That would be a good change in my opinion as doing a Dash Attack out of Dash Stop always felt weird. (I actually do it that way in my own game as well) So when you input something during the Dash Stop, it gets buffered in just like on the Dash Pivot, so you do your new attack at the end of the animation instead of cancelling into a Dash Attack.

Now you might say "Oh, no, i have seen more frames of both the turn around and the dash stop, these are cancels!" To that I would say perhaps, but most fighting games also have a system of "early-outs". Basically this allows the game to put you in non-committed animation states that allow you to smoothly transition back to idle while still being able to act. Take for example, the Dash Stop. The whole animation could be 12 frames. But the first 8 frames are the Dash Stop gameplay state, then the next 4 frames act as if you are in the idle state (so you have all your options) even though the Dash Stop animation is still playing. These helps games feel better. I am not sure if Smash 4 is using early-outs, but I bring it up because more frames does not mean these aren't Buffered Attacks.

TLDR: Looking at the video, there is a good chance these are buffered attacks right out of Dash Pivot and Dash Stop states, rather than cancelled techs. Buffered techs make sense since Smash 4 is being designed for online play.

-Dan

 

[Louis Drust]

This is the exact reason I don't like people tearing apart the games mechanics immediately.

Yeah, it's something small and may be intentional, but this just shows that there could be an absolute plethora of options that we haven't even come close to delving into. Just because the most conventional of our unconventional movement options from PM and Melee aren't available doesn't mean we won't find anything to increase our mobility in this game.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Lets not make this thread about L-cancelling and other off topic nonsense.


There are a lot of easy techs that are easy to learn and hard to master @ Ogre_Deity_Link . No one stated that L-canceling or wave-dashing were one of them. Short hopping is easy to learn and hard to master. Someone that masters short hopping can probably short hop laser with Falco. Some techs are difficult. No one is saying that everything in Melee or Brawl is easy to do. They are just saying that practice makes perfect. Some people may get the hang of things before others. Thats nothing to be upset about. Also no one had said that techs are easy to learn and easy to master.

If you're looking for a tech thats easy to learn and easy to master try Short hop lasers to BDACUS trust me its super easy

 

[Renji64]

lol people getting heated.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

See competitive Smashers..there are advanced tech in Smash 4 now may you please not judge the game before it comes out

 

[D-idara]

You said a few posts up that it's Sakurai trying to "bridge the yawning chasm between competitive and casual." Such a chasm is always going to exist and this does next to nothing. You're going to spend the same amount of time practicing regardless of whether or not it takes less mechanical skill. All you're basically admitting to is you don't want to be arsed with fine tuning your finger movements. Which is totally fair, I don't blame you. I ****ing play Peach. Many people are comfortable with putting in that work.

To some people this is an insult as this is just another reminder that this series has trended more and more casual since 2001 and that people like yourself celebrating this new "easy" tech is the reason why. I think it's neat, personally. But if you're getting so heated you should at least be able to understand why people are getting angry with you.

Why would you want people to need fine-tuning? Why can't they just jump into the battle like they're supposed to?

 

[StriCNYN3]

Why would you want people to need fine-tuning? Why can't they just jump into the battle like they're supposed to?

That's what it takes to become proficient, as you'd expect from anything, really.

No one is being forced. It is Smash after all. Players can hop in and play for ****s and giggles which ever way they want.

However, don't go coming to Smashboards and making excuses about mechanics when you lose to someone who has spent the time to fine tune his/her skill.

 

[Skull_Kid]

@ Lozjam I'm really glad our small community was able to bring something new to the game. Hopefully this will still be in the final version of smash4 and will be a useful AT (who knows, maybe we'll get to see some applications of it at the San Diego 3ds tournament!).

The discovery of TC wouldn't have been possible without Loci_AF (the dude in the videos).

I noticed a lot of people suggesting their own name for the AT, personally if i had to simplify it (cause apparently "turnaround cancel" it doesn't roll off the tongue well), i'd just go with "turn cancel" it's easier to say/spell and remember. Plus, it still gets to the point, even a casual would probably get the meaning.

edit: spelling

 

[Lozjam]

@ Lozjam I'm really glad our small community was able to bring something new to the game. Hopefully this will still be in the final version of smash4 and will be a useful AT (who knows, maybe we'll get to see some applications of it at the San Diego 3ds tournament!).

The discovery of TC wouldn't have been possible without Loci_AF (the dude in the videos).

I noticed a lot of people suggesting their own name for the AT, personally if i had to simplify it (cause apparently "turnaround cancel" it doesn't roll off the tongue well), i'd just go with "turn cancel" it's easier to say/spell and remember. Plus, it still gets to the point, even a casual would probably get the meaning.

edit: spelling

Well thank you immensely for it, and thanks Loci_AF, I am sure this brings a lot of people who enjoyed Melee hope. There were a lot of people bashing Smash 4 for not being "competitive" enough and "too much like Brawl". Granted, most of these people never actually played the game themselves, and the people want to get word out to Nintendo so it could be changed. Smash Bros Italia has shown the community how deep the Smash 4 Metagame can get, and proves to people it has a large amount of potential. There are probably a ton more at's we have yet to discover. Though I find it very impressive that you guys found this at in the first place. Keep it up!

 

[Skull_Kid]

Well thank you immensely for it, and thanks Loci_AF, I am sure this brings a lot of people who enjoyed Melee hope. There were a lot of people bashing Smash 4 for not being "competitive" enough and "too much like Brawl". Granted, most of these people never actually played the game themselves, and the people want to get word out to Nintendo so it could be changed. Smash Bros Italia has shown the community how deep the Smash 4 Metagame can get, and proves to people it has a large amount of potential. There are probably a ton more at's we have yet to discover. Though I find it very impressive that you guys found this at in the first place. Keep it up!

We are few in italy but we try our best!

What I believe that (some) players are probably doing wrong, is judging the game too soon and comparing it to both Melee or Brawl, sometimes even dismissing it as a Brawl clone ecc. I was quite saddened by the statements of some players out of the invitational/e3, to me, it just showed they approached the game looking for something they already knew, not for something new. It's just something we shouldn't do. As we know, every smash game is fundamentally different from the other (except for the basics), thus making each new game not a sequel, but a standalone title. Sure Brawl is undeniably a slower paced game compared to Melee ecc ecc; but sometimes i just ask my self "what if". What if Platform Drop, Glide Tossing and other ATs were discovered and mastered long before in the process? ZSS everywhere? We'll never know.

I guess what i'm trying to say is: if you're gonna play looking for something old, you've already "lost".

edit: We were only able to discover new stuff in the demo thanks to the way we approached it. We didn't look for Brawl nor Melee, we looked for Smash4.

Let's get back to the video: a reddit user suggested that a name change in what we called "wavebounce grab", which is quite understandable. The name "Z reversal" came up and we think it's actually pretty neat.

 

[Lozjam]

We are few in italy but we try our best!

What I believe that (some) players are probably doing wrong, is judging the game too soon and comparing it to both Melee or Brawl, sometimes even dismissing it as a Brawl clone ecc. I was quite saddened by the statements of some players out of the invitational/e3, to me, it just showed they approached the game looking for something they already knew, not for something new. It's just something we shouldn't do. As we know, every smash game is fundamentally different from the other (except for the basics), thus making each new game not a sequel, but a standalone title. Sure Brawl is undeniably a slower paced game compared to Melee ecc ecc; but sometimes i just ask my self "what if". What if Platform Drop, Glide Tossing and other ATs were discovered and mastered long before in the process? ZSS everywhere? We'll never know.

I guess what i'm trying to say is: if you're gonna play looking for something old, you've already "lost".

edit: We were only able to discover new stuff in the demo thanks to the way we approached it. We didn't look for Brawl nor Melee, we looked for Smash4.

Let's get back to the video: a reddit user suggested that a name change in what we called "wavebounce grab", which is quite understandable. The name "Z reversal" came up and we think it's actually pretty neat.

That was a very good way to approach it, and I hope more people follow that line of thinking. You have already fixed what stunted Brawl's Metagame, and this is very good.
On another note, you speak English very well, or errr type it very well.
The name Z reversal sounds very cool, I think we should keep that one. As for the name Turn Cancel..... I have to say I am not fond of it, as I think Pivot Cancel sounds a mite better. But you did discover the technique, so you get the rights to name it whatever you wish. But what is your communities experience come with the usefulness of Turn Cancelling? Have you guys managed to do smash attacks and tilts in the same direction of your initial dash, much like how you did with items, or is it untested?

 

[Skull_Kid]

That was a very good way to approach it, and I hope more people follow that line of thinking. You have already fixed what stunted Brawl's Metagame, and this is very good.
On another note, you speak English very well, or errr type it very well.
The name Z reversal sounds very cool, I think we should keep that one. As for the name Turn Cancel..... I have to say I am not fond of it, as I think Pivot Cancel sounds a mite better. But you did discover the technique, so you get the rights to name it whatever you wish. But what is your communities experience come with the usefulness of Turn Cancelling? Have you guys managed to do smash attacks and tilts in the same direction of your initial dash, much like how you did with items, or is it untested?

Well we just discovered the ATs, we didn't test them in a competitive game, so when it comes to usefulness, I just hope we'll see some stuff out of the San Diego tourny! Loci_AF was the one who discovered most of this, so I guess i'll ask him what to "name" the new AT, I actually don't mind "Pivot Cancel"!

On another note: you'd probably be surprised of my spoken english too! It's a long story, maybe you'll get to hear it in our next vids!

 

[Lozjam]

Well we just discovered the ATs, we didn't test them in a competitive game, so when it comes to usefulness, I just hope we'll see some stuff out of the San Diego tourny! Loci_AF was the one who discovered most of this, so I guess i'll ask him what to "name" the new AT, I actually don't mind "Pivot Cancel"!

On another note: you'd probably be surprised of my spoken english too! It's a long story, maybe you'll get to hear it in our next vids!

Do we know who is competing in the Tournament? I mean, this has been given a lot of publicity. Over 179 guests are watching this.

All y'all. Come join Smashboards, it will give you in edge in Smash 4, plus you can get a ton of new strategies and news about the game as well.

I think we should contact the people competing, I am sure they won't mind getting a fantastic new AT as an edge in competition.

 

[pizzapie7]

Why would you want people to need fine-tuning? Why can't they just jump into the battle like they're supposed to?

They can. People have been ****ing around in Smash Bros for a decade in a half. But if you want to play in a semi-competitive environment aren't you're going to need to get your **** together regardless? Knowing how to do something is just as critical as knowing when and where to do it.

Why can't people just jump into a basketball game? Dribbling is a completely arbitrary mechanical tech barrier that is unnecessary, we should just remove it!

@ Malcolm Belmont what does tech have to do with judging or not judging the game? Tech is nice but this game isn't going to be a good competitive game simply because it has tech. It's not any different than judging the game based off of the character selection screen.

 

[victinivcreate1]

They can. People have been ****ing around in Smash Bros for a decade in a half. But if you want to play in a semi-competitive environment aren't you're going to need to get your **** together regardless? Knowing how to do something is just as critical as knowing when and where to do it.

Why can't people just jump into a basketball game? Dribbling is a completely arbitrary mechanical tech barrier that is unnecessary, we should just remove it!

Don't try to be Fox McCloud and try to pressure Di-dara's shield with waveshines. Doesn't work. He has a frame 1 Up B. He'll get ya everytime.

I.e: Di-dara is mega bait. Don't try to argue with him. Some of his claims are very reasonable, but most of them aren't.

 

[JV5Chris]

I was quite saddened by the statements of some players out of the invitational/e3, to me, it just showed they approached the game looking for something they already knew, not for something new.

You really shouldn't be though. Most have just given their honest feedback, which is totally fair, and probably similar to the what they told Nintendo for the sake of Smash 4 being even better.

I understand that there is this desire out there to position Smash 4 as something entirely new and different, but it's still Smash Brothers. It's not as if everything from the past is no longer relevant to the critiques and discussions now. Players will draw comparisons; so much should be expected when you make a sequel. There's really no reason to jump on people for sharing their thoughts, even when they're not bubbly positive. Not that you necessarily are btw.

Keep in mind too if everyone was unanimously in love with everything seen so far, Nintendo would get a whole lot less out of visiting Smashboards. General discussion might not even be worth following.

 

[Bladeviper]

You really shouldn't be though. Most have just given their honest feedback, which is totally fair, and probably similar to the what they told Nintendo for the sake of Smash 4 being even better.

I understand that there is this desire out there to position Smash 4 as something entirely new and different, but it's still Smash Brothers. It's not as if everything from the past is no longer relevant to the critiques and discussions now. Players will draw comparisons; so much should be expected when you make a sequel. There's really no reason to jump on people for sharing their thoughts, even when they're not bubbly positive. Not that you necessarily are btw.

Keep in mind to if everyone was unanimously in love with everything seen so far, Nintendo would get a whole lot less out of visiting Smashboards. General discussion might not even be worth following.

i can agree with this i am just bothered by the people who are just posting hate with no critique just because its not the same as before. Also while it is a sequel things do change as seen in other games and even fighting games it to be expected i think anyway

 

[Skull_Kid]

You really shouldn't be though. Most have just given their honest feedback, which is totally fair, and probably similar to the what they told Nintendo for the sake of Smash 4 being even better.

I understand that there is this desire out there to position Smash 4 as something entirely new and different, but it's still Smash Brothers. It's not as if everything from the past is no longer relevant to the critiques and discussions now. Players will draw comparisons; so much should be expected when you make a sequel. There's really no reason to jump on people for sharing their thoughts, even when they're not bubbly positive. Not that you necessarily are btw.

Keep in mind to if everyone was unanimously in love with everything seen so far, Nintendo would get a whole lot less out of visiting Smashboards. General discussion might not even be worth following.

Oh yeah I agree when it comes to give honest opinions, everyone should! i just felt like some were a little "one sided". You, know...when you read words like "no hope" and such after just a day with smash4.

Do we know who is competing in the Tournament? I mean, this has been given a lot of publicity. Over 179 guests are watching this.

All y'all. Come join Smashboards, it will give you in edge in Smash 4, plus you can get a ton of new strategies and news about the game as well.

I think we should contact the people competing, I am sure they won't mind getting a fantastic new AT as an edge in competition.

I have no idea who is competing, but come on, it' would be impossible not to have at least a dozen of competitive players there! It was also posted on reddit so, as you pointed out, it got a lot of publicity.

 

[Lozjam]

Oh yeah I agree when it comes to give honest opinions, everyone should! i just felt like some were a little "one sided". You, know...when you read words like "no hope" and such after just a day with smash4.



I have no idea who is competing, but come on, it' would be impossible not to have at least a dozen of competitive players there! It was also posted on reddit so, as you pointed out, it got a lot of publicity.

Very true. Let's hope some of them test it out, I cannot wait to watch the tournament

 

[ryuu seika]

Why can't people just jump into a basketball game? Dribbling is a completely arbitrary mechanical tech barrier that is unnecessary, we should just remove it!

While the need for dribbling has always annoyed me, it's also far from equivalent to Smash mechanics.
Let's compare to L-Cancelling to explain this:

-Both mechanics facilitate movement.
-Both mechanics are arbitrary, with no logical reason to exist.
-Both mechanics have very specific timings.
-Both Mechanics were intentionally written into the rules of their respective games.
-Dribbling is a clear, visible mechanic, whereas L-Cancelling is only noticeable if you pay close attention to how fast your next action occurs.
-Dribbling is explained in any introduction to the sport, while L-Cancelling was an afterthought implemented to make the AI seem less cheap and unfair. The tutorials never mentioned it.

Maybe you can't see it but the difference is there. Anyone can walk up, see dribbling, receive a brief explanation and play, instantly knowing when they're performing it right. With L-Cancelling, you can be performing the action and still never know it exists because it's never seen or explained.
Even as arbitrary technical barriers go, L-Cancelling is bad because it simply isn't user friendly.

I hear Project M has done some work on that aspect though.

 

[D-idara]

Don't try to be Fox McCloud and try to pressure Di-dara's shield with waveshines. Doesn't work. He has a frame 1 Up B. He'll get ya everytime.

I.e: Di-dara is mega bait. Don't try to argue with him. Some of his claims are very reasonable, but most of them aren't.

I'm not mega bait :I I'm just againist the notion that top players should be forced to go through the painful process of learning ridiculous advanced techniques like L-Cancel (Wavedash doesn't seem that ridiculous because you don't have to do it with EVERY SINGLE AERIAL, although it's still pretty hard to do consistently). I like this technique because, although it seems tricky to pull off, it's not AS tricky as Wavedash, L-Cancel or the overly-ridiculous DACUS.

I want a game where you can start working on your fundamentals without the fear of something suddenly being discovered that will destroy your fundamentals, some game-breaking technique that will make it play nothing like before, that's the kind of things I don't want to happen, because they twist the player's arms into learning something that they shouldn't have to learn or practice in the first place, the answer will never be 'suck it up' because these are videogames, these aren't live sports where we need extreme physical condition to participate. The easier everything is to do, the faster people can actually focus on getting better, for real.

While the need for dribbling has always annoyed me, it's also far from equivalent to Smash mechanics.
Let's compare to L-Cancelling to explain this:

-Both mechanics facilitate movement.
-Both mechanics are arbitrary, with no logical reason to exist.
-Both mechanics have very specific timings.
-Both Mechanics were intentionally written into the rules of their respective games.
-Dribbling is a clear, visible mechanic, whereas L-Cancelling is only noticeable if you pay close attention to how fast your next action occurs.
-Dribbling is explained in any introduction to the sport, while L-Cancelling was an afterthought implemented to make the AI seem less cheap and unfair. The tutorials never mentioned it.

Maybe you can't see it but the difference is there. Anyone can walk up, see dribbling, receive a brief explanation and play, instantly knowing when they're performing it right. With L-Cancelling, you can be performing the action and still never know it exists because it's never seen or explained.
Even as arbitrary technical barriers go, L-Cancelling is bad because it simply isn't user friendly.

I hear Project M has done some work on that aspect though.

I'm not trying to say it's easy, but the timing of dribbling isn't nearly as precise as the timing for L-Cancel, and it's a motion that flows naturally with the game and naturally chains into other motions, L-Cancel's a jarring, offputting 'fix' to a problem that shouldn't be fixed by the players themselves, but by the developer, the answer? Just cut landing lag across the board and make L-Cancel pointless, there, everyone plays a faster game FROM THE START. <--This is the keyword here, from the start, no bull****, no obscure secrets, 100% core game mechanics.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

If you're looking for a tech thats easy to learn and easy to master try Short hop lasers to BDACUS trust me its super easy

Oh, totes dude. Like, a baby could pull that off. I do that in my sleep all the time.