Smash 4 Advanced Technique: Pivot Cancelling/Turndashing(A New Movement Technique!)

[Lozjam]

Platform canceling? I don't think it'll even be considered since the only stage they're considering for competitive play is FD.

That is only for online. And NoA know what's up with us.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

This is going to be interesting with Mega Man, as his Ftilt is his lemon shooter, and he continues to run with it. Meaning he can somewhat freely run in any direction that he wants to, in theory.

 

[JV5Chris]

Platform canceling? I don't think it'll even be considered since the only stage they're considering for competitive play is FD.

Which is something they should really change btw.

 

[ErenJager]

Once Miiverse clues into this, they'll spam for it's removal.

Guys keep this on the DL.

Bads will blame this for being bad and declare it be removed.

semi-srs.

 

[Lozjam]

Once Miiverse clues into this, they'll spam for it's removal.

Guys keep this on the DL.

Bads will blame this for being bad and declare it be removed.

semi-srs.

I really doubt they have time to change anything. The 3DS version is coming out in September 13 in Japan, so if it isn't fully completed and ready for the production process now it will be in at the very most 15 days. That isn't enough time to change it, not this late in development. And yes, the e3 build of the game was very old, but this seems 100% intentional. They would have to change their entire engine in order to change this, then you would have to debug, which takes even longer. There is a very low probability they could even get it done.

 

[Skull_Kid]

@ Lozjam So I had a word with Loci_AF, he said he's more fond to "Turn Cancel" rather than "Pivot Cancel" (IF the name needs to be changed obviously)

What do you guys think?

edit: Btw, I just hope Smash4 wont be ruined by constant patches, PSASBR is a good example of what might happen. It wasn't as good as Smash and didn't sell as well, but the constant patches caused by all the casuals crying out for'em surely helped driving away all the players that tried to play it competitively (I for example, am one of'em). I just got sick of having to re-learn everything from the start, and at every freaking patch, pro players discovered new combos and ATs, so it was a never ending loop (well until the studio was shot down for the game's poor sales). Still, it kind of puzzles me why SuperBot constantly listened/pleased the casuals, it surely wasn't helping sales. ButI guess it's getting a little OP over here, so i better stop.

Nintendo is obviously backing us up in some way, so hopefully this wont happen to us.

 

[EndlessSmash]

Going by what Sakurai said about Nosferatu doing more damage if performed from behind, Robin's going to rock that skill with this new pivot-cancelling.

 

[Bladeviper]

@ Lozjam So I had a word with Loci_AF, he said he's more fond to "Turn Cancel" rather than "Pivot Cancel" (IF the name needs to be changed obviously)

What do you guys think?

edit: Btw, I just hope Smash4 wont be ruined by constant patches, PSASBR is a good example of what might happen. It wasn't as good as Smash and didn't sell as well, but the constant patches caused by all the casuals crying out for'em surely helped driving away all the players that tried to play it competitively (I for example, am one of'em). I just got sick of having to re-learn everything from the start, and at every freaking patch, pro players discovered new combos and ATs, so it was a never ending loop (well until the studio was shot down for the game's poor sales). Still, it kind of puzzles me why SuperBot constantly listened/pleased the casuals, it surely wasn't helping sales. ButI guess it's getting a little OP over here, so i better stop.

Nintendo is obviously backing us up in some way, so hopefully this wont happen to us.

i think if we do get patch it will just be for balance changes or bug fixes and they probably won't make any huge sweeping changes to how the game plays

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

"Pivot" generally refers to something to do with dash-dancing or turning around whilst performing a move, so I believe that Turn Cancel is a more befitting name for a technique that is about turning and then doing an action. Either one's fine by me though.

 

[LancerStaff]

That is only for online. And NoA know what's up with us.

I doubt NoA has much imput on the game. Most certainly not enough to add platform canceling.

Which is something they should really change btw.

Complaining about games you haven't played, eh?

 

[pizzapie7]

Complaining about games you haven't played, eh?

People tend to do that. Especially about design decisions they don't like.

 

[LancerStaff]

People tend to do that. Especially about design decisions they don't like.

The problem here is that adding additional, potentially unbalanced, stages wouldn't of stopped the complaining. Really, I'm doubtful people here would of been happy with just two stages. Having two would open the floodgates of complaints and stage legality arguments. Not to mention Battlefield likely won't be the ultra-neutral stage it's always been with the overall projectile nerf. FD is likely the new go-to competitive stage, and Sakurai pleases a pretty big group with his ultra-conservative rules. Nobody would of been happy with two stages.

 

[pizzapie7]

The problem here is that adding additional, potentially unbalanced, stages wouldn't of stopped the complaining. Really, I'm doubtful people here would of been happy with just two stages. Having two would open the floodgates of complaints and stage legality arguments. Not to mention Battlefield likely won't be the ultra-neutral stage it's always been with the overall projectile nerf. FD is likely the new go-to competitive stage, and Sakurai pleases a pretty big group with his ultra-conservative rules. Nobody would of been happy with two stages.

What about the 6 that Melee uses now? The 10 or so that Brawl uses? However many PM uses? I've seen no cheering for Final Destination only anywhere. This ultra-conservative group hardly exists in the scene today anywhere but Japan, who has a much smaller scene than elsewhere. Stop implying there's a pretty large group that is thanking Sakurai that they can only play on one flat stage. Even if the game is "balanced" around Final Destination playing on one stage isn't a good thing. I wouldn't like it if I could only play on Battlefield or only play on Smashville either. This complaining beforehand didn't exist. Stage legality arguments are going to exist regardless because I doubt anyone is going to want to play on one stage to begin with, and there is nothing wrong with them in the first place. If you want Distant Planet or Pokefloats, argue for it and convince a TO try it.

 

[LancerStaff]

What about the 6 that Melee uses now? The 10 or so that Brawl uses? However many PM uses? I've seen no cheering for Final Destination only anywhere. This ultra-conservative group hardly exists in the scene today anywhere but Japan, who has a much smaller scene than elsewhere. Stop implying there's a pretty large group that is thanking Sakurai that they can only play on one flat stage. Even if the game is "balanced" around Final Destination playing on one stage isn't a good thing. I wouldn't like it if I could only play on Battlefield or only play on Smashville either. This complaining beforehand didn't exist. Stage legality arguments are going to exist regardless because I doubt anyone is going to want to play on one stage to begin with, and there is nothing wrong with them in the first place. If you want Distant Planet or Pokefloats, argue for it and convince a TO try it.

Think about it like this: The average competitive player wants 3-4 stages legal. Problem is, everybody has different opinions on what should be legal. Player A wants 10 stages. B wants 5. C, 7. But A's stages don't include all of B's or C's. There may be more people who want a liberal stage choice, but they can't agree on what they want. Conservative players naturally have more similar opinions on stages, and thusly are easier to please. Rather then attempting to please a group that can't agree with each other at all, they chose the ones that'd be nearly impossible to screw up.

 

[pizzapie7]

Think about it like this: The average competitive player wants 3-4 stages legal. Problem is, everybody has different opinions on what should be legal. Player A wants 10 stages. B wants 5. C, 7. But A's stages don't include all of B's or C's. There may be more people who want a liberal stage choice, but they can't agree on what they want. Conservative players naturally have more similar opinions on stages, and thusly are easier to please. Rather then attempting to please a group that can't agree with each other at all, they chose the ones that'd be nearly impossible to screw up.

I believe people would much rather have a dozen or so plausible stage choices to bounce in and out of regional lists until a firm, hard stage list is made up, rather than just one stage. So they did screw up, even if you say it was impossible to do so.

 

[LancerStaff]

I believe people would much rather have a dozen or so plausible stage choices to bounce in and out of regional lists until a firm, hard stage list is made up, rather than just one stage. So they did screw up, even if you say it was impossible to do so.

I don't think Sakurai wants to divide the already small competitive scene further. Nor does he want 52 different rulesets because people can't agree. One blanket solution simply works better in this case.

 

[.Shìkì]

Going by what Sakurai said about Nosferatu doing more damage if performed from behind, Robin's going to rock that skill with this new pivot-cancelling.

Yeah thought about that too... but you would have to dash behind the enemy which he could easily intercept, so...

Did anybody who tested this himself (i saw somebody said he found that) if you can dash->turn->cancel with a shorthop->B-air? Looks like the turn is pretty much instantaneous and this should be really good for characters with strong b-airs... Imagine bowser/kirby running at you and hitting you in yo' face with their dropkicks X)

EDIT : Wait, was one of Bowsers dropkicks b-air? might have been dash attack and smash attack, not sure...

 

[EndlessSmash]

Yeah thought about that too... but you would have to dash behind the enemy which he could easily intercept, so...

Mind-games. Constantly do dash attacks/attacks from the front to make them either block/dodge, then mix it up with pivot-cancelling.

 

[ErenJager]

I really doubt they have time to change anything. The 3DS version is coming out in September 13 in Japan, so if it isn't fully completed and ready for the production process now it will be in at the very most 15 days. That isn't enough time to change it, not this late in development. And yes, the e3 build of the game was very old, but this seems 100% intentional. They would have to change their entire engine in order to change this, then you would have to debug, which takes even longer. There is a very low probability they could even get it done.

They'd patch it out.
No one's gonna complain until they've been playing it for a while.
Then once they find out they're doing bad online, they'll blame something other then themselves.
Whatever people end up being vocal about, i'm sure it'll be addressed in a patch.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

They'd patch it out.
No one's gonna complain until they've been playing it for a while.
Then once they find out they're doing bad online, they'll blame something other then themselves.
Whatever people end up being vocal about, i'm sure it'll be addressed in a patch.

People have been whining about fire hopping in MK8 for a long time and it's still there and it doesn't seem like they're going to remove it.

 

[Beats]

They'd patch it out.
No one's gonna complain until they've been playing it for a while.
Then once they find out they're doing bad online, they'll blame something other then themselves.
Whatever people end up being vocal about, i'm sure it'll be addressed in a patch.

Reggie said it himself, no johns. I doubt Nintendo is going to listen to people who just john.

 

[warionumbah2]

People have been whining about fire hopping in MK8 for a long time and it's still there and it doesn't seem like they're going to remove it.

Only because removing that mechanic will mess up time trail records, if they change fire hopping then they must change the games physics.

World records were achieved through fire hopping they cannot take it out or else those records will be unbeatable.

 

[The Slayer]

People have been whining about fire hopping in MK8 for a long time and it's still there and it doesn't seem like they're going to remove it.

I was gonna say the same thing. Doesn't seem like they're removing Fire-hopping since it's mainly useful in TT and practically a small boost in online play. Otherwise, not game-breaking. I can see this technique in Smash Bros not being game breaking either.

 

[LancerStaff]

http://www.mkboards.com/forums/threads/advanced-techs-and-other-mk8-information.6246/

There's actually quite a few techs in MK8, and a few seem intentional. Notably, Turbo Control and Break Pumping. (I just call the last one "Breaking," but whateves.)

 

[Conda]

That is only for online. And NoA know what's up with us.

Yes, the 'fd only' rule for 'for glory' comes from the japanese smash competitive scene, as I recall. That's generally how they play there, regarding their primary tournament ruleset. It also keeps things simple for online. It'd be weird for nintendo to ban and allow specific stages for online 'for glory', so they kept it simple and unarguable by making it 'final destination' only.

But for irl tournaments and with-friends online tournaments, you'll go by the standard community-decided 'legal and banned' stages rules.

 

[RunawayPanda]

Looks interesting to do

 

[pizzapie7]

I don't think Sakurai wants to divide the already small competitive scene further. Nor does he want 52 different rulesets because people can't agree. One blanket solution simply works better in this case.

Nobody complained about any division. He doesn't care about the competitive scene or the rulesets. The blanket decision is stupid, you don't know what you're talking about, stop trying to defend it.

Yes, the 'fd only' rule for 'for glory' comes from the japanese smash competitive scene, as I recall. That's generally how they play there, regarding their primary tournament ruleset. It also keeps things simple for online. It'd be weird for nintendo to ban and allow specific stages for online 'for glory', so they kept it simple and unarguable by making it 'final destination' only.

But for irl tournaments and with-friends online tournaments, you'll go by the standard community-decided 'legal and banned' stages rules.

Considering the fact that the only reaching out any competitive scene has been done by Nintendo of America to the West, I highly doubt that the 'FD only' comes from the Japanese scene in the first place. It's more than likely because Final Destination was the most picked stage in the random online mode to begin with.

The tournaments listed on Smashboards held in Japan all involve more than one stage, and the wiki claims they run three neutral stages (which assumes they also use counterpicks).

 

[LancerStaff]

Nobody complained about any division. He doesn't care about the competitive scene or the rulesets. The blanket decision is stupid, you don't know what you're talking about, stop trying to defend it.


Considering the fact that the only reaching out any competitive scene has been done by Nintendo of America to the West, I highly doubt that the 'FD only' comes from the Japanese scene in the first place. It's more than likely because Final Destination was the most picked stage in the random online mode to begin with.

The tournaments listed on Smashboards held in Japan all involve more than one stage, and the wiki claims they run three neutral stages (which assumes they also use counterpicks).

They've actually done that in MK8, kinda. You can choose your CC, item selection, karts/bikes/all, and even forced gyro or not. You'll never find a match for anything that isn't 150cc with normal or frantic items. Division is a legitimate concern, and you know it.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I believe people would much rather have a dozen or so plausible stage choices to bounce in and out of regional lists until a firm, hard stage list is made up, rather than just one stage. So they did screw up, even if you say it was impossible to do so.

So where does it say that because For Glory mode uses only FD-esque stages that all tournaments moving forward will be forced to play on only FD? I seemed to have missed that part in the direct.

 

[Bladeviper]

So where does it say that because For Glory mode uses only FD-esque stages that all tournaments moving forward will be forced to play on only FD? I seemed to have missed that part in the direct.

this, if you are that concerened just play with friends online and you are set. All for glory is is another way to play online that can allow one on one with no items without having to set it up through friend id or ninteno id or however its gona work

 

[Une]

Half-hour of practice? See, again, some people say, "Oh Wavedashing and L-cancelling are so easy, how can you not do it, I could do it the first time I picked up a controller, but tech skill isn't important but it is, but it isn't, but it is," ect, ad nauseum. Well, congradu-*****ing-lations on having such dexterity, but just because you can do it doesn't mean the majority of people can, nor do they want to take the amount of time it would take to learn it. If I want something so heavily tech based, I'll go play BlazBlue or Persona 4 Arena.

And I never said the skill gap itself is narrowed. No one seems to be listening to me. Just because the tech is EASY TO DO doesn't mean that it is EASY TO MASTER. Those are completely separate things. I'm celebrating the fact that I no longer have to spend countless hours trying to learn how to do things, and more time practicing the practical applications. I'd much rather spend hours and hours practicing situations in which to use a technique and how it will improve my gameplay, then spend double that time, half of which is just trying to actually perform the d**mned technique consistently. And yet, that alone seems to have people upset, like it's an insult that anything dare be mechanically easier. Why is this such an issue?

lol blazblue and persona (ESPECIALLY persona. Persona is THE easiest modern ifghting game out there. Lol auto combo, one button DP, every single special input is quarter circle or charge up/down, large delay window for normal cancels like in Blazblue, buffer window, etc..) are not that technical unless you're playing like Carl or Rachel or Shadow Labrys or one of the more difficult characters

I'm not mega bait :I I'm just againist the notion that top players should be forced to go through the painful process of learning ridiculous advanced techniques like L-Cancel (Wavedash doesn't seem that ridiculous because you don't have to do it with EVERY SINGLE AERIAL, although it's still pretty hard to do consistently). I like this technique because, although it seems tricky to pull off, it's not AS tricky as Wavedash, L-Cancel or the overly-ridiculous DACUS.

I want a game where you can start working on your fundamentals without the fear of something suddenly being discovered that will destroy your fundamentals, some game-breaking technique that will make it play nothing like before, that's the kind of things I don't want to happen, because they twist the player's arms into learning something that they shouldn't have to learn or practice in the first place, the answer will never be 'suck it up' because these are videogames, these aren't live sports where we need extreme physical condition to participate. The easier everything is to do, the faster people can actually focus on getting better, for real.

I'm not trying to say it's easy, but the timing of dribbling isn't nearly as precise as the timing for L-Cancel, and it's a motion that flows naturally with the game and naturally chains into other motions, L-Cancel's a jarring, offputting 'fix' to a problem that shouldn't be fixed by the players themselves, but by the developer, the answer? Just cut landing lag across the board and make L-Cancel pointless, there, everyone plays a faster game FROM THE START. <--This is the keyword here, from the start, no bull****, no obscure secrets, 100% core game mechanics.

"I'm just againist the notion that top players should be forced to go through the painful process of learning ridiculous advanced techniques like L-Cancel"

Someone just said that. L-Cancel is ridiculous and painful to learn. I never would have thought it was painful to remember to hit a button whenever you're about to land but hey. There's all kinds of people out there in the world. Like okay sure wavedashing is technical yeah but L-Cancel? Oh noez I have to think about hitting a button when my guy is close to the ground so technical and painful to learn. Yeah whatever dude.

 

[D-idara]

lol blazblue and persona (ESPECIALLY persona. Persona is THE easiest modern ifghting game out there. Lol auto combo, one button DP, every single special input is quarter circle or charge up/down, large delay window for normal cancels like in Blazblue, buffer window, etc..) are not that technical unless you're playing like Carl or Rachel or Shadow Labrys or one of the more difficult characters



"I'm just againist the notion that top players should be forced to go through the painful process of learning ridiculous advanced techniques like L-Cancel"

Someone just said that. L-Cancel is ridiculous and painful to learn. I never would have thought it was painful to remember to hit a button whenever you're about to land but hey. There's all kinds of people out there in the world. Like okay sure wavedashing is technical yeah but L-Cancel? Oh noez I have to think about hitting a button when my guy is close to the ground so technical and painful to learn. Yeah whatever dude.

It's now what you do, it's how often and how quickly you have to do it, and don't worry, that etilist, "I think it's easy" attitude just strips all credibility from your argument.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

lol blazblue and persona (ESPECIALLY persona. Persona is THE easiest modern ifghting game out there. Lol auto combo, one button DP, every single special input is quarter circle or charge up/down, large delay window for normal cancels like in Blazblue, buffer window, etc..) are not that technical unless you're playing like Carl or Rachel or Shadow Labrys or one of the more difficult characters



"I'm just againist the notion that top players should be forced to go through the painful process of learning ridiculous advanced techniques like L-Cancel"

Someone just said that. L-Cancel is ridiculous and painful to learn. I never would have thought it was painful to remember to hit a button whenever you're about to land but hey. There's all kinds of people out there in the world. Like okay sure wavedashing is technical yeah but L-Cancel? Oh noez I have to think about hitting a button when my guy is close to the ground so technical and painful to learn. Yeah whatever dude.

It's actually 100% fact that many of our top players gave developed or are developing serious dexterous issues as a result of playing. Sakurai would also be an example, as the man who actually makes these games. You can't argue this.

 

[Senario]

It's actually 100% fact that many of our top players gave developed or are developing serious dexterous issues as a result of playing. Sakurai would also be an example, as the man who actually makes these games. You can't argue this.

He can, saying it is not difficult is totally fair and true. Saying it is necessary is a different thing. You are probably gonna get all mad and be "You are wrong because I say so" but generally replacing it with lower landing lag across the board = solves everybody's problems. People don't get hand problems, it keeps pro play in tact.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

lol blazblue and persona (ESPECIALLY persona. Persona is THE easiest modern ifghting game out there. Lol auto combo, one button DP, every single special input is quarter circle or charge up/down, large delay window for normal cancels like in Blazblue, buffer window, etc..) are not that technical unless you're playing like Carl or Rachel or Shadow Labrys or one of the more difficult characters



"I'm just againist the notion that top players should be forced to go through the painful process of learning ridiculous advanced techniques like L-Cancel"

Someone just said that. L-Cancel is ridiculous and painful to learn. I never would have thought it was painful to remember to hit a button whenever you're about to land but hey. There's all kinds of people out there in the world. Like okay sure wavedashing is technical yeah but L-Cancel? Oh noez I have to think about hitting a button when my guy is close to the ground so technical and painful to learn. Yeah whatever dude.

Oh ye gods help, I'm drowning in salt...

 

[PCHU]

I guess I'm just gonna come out and say this.
If we could get a Brawl Smashville-esque kind of stage for For Glory, that'd be awesome.
It's like the best of both worlds, what with the moving platform.
However, I don't think this is necessary.

I feel that people with a stronger camp game might actually not be dominant this time around, especially if they do what a lot of people have suggested and lower landing lag in general (which they might have actually done, judging by the scene with Lucina landing with her nair), giving more people more options (which is all we wanted in the first place).
Characters like Greninja are going to have a much easier time getting around spam and the like, but I wouldn't go out and say that quicker characters will outright dominate, either.
From what I can piece together (combined with a bit of hope), it seems like we might have a decent balance between melee and projectiles.

 

[D-idara]

You people really underestimate just how much input NoA has on this game, right? Why would they EVEn have people taking feedback at the showfloor if they're not going to apply it? God.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

You people really underestimate just how much input NoA has on this game, right? Why would they EVEn have people taking feedback at the showfloor if they're not going to apply it? God.

I'm incredibly optimistic over Smash 4 but even then my gut still tells me that it's all a bit superficial..."for show" if you will.

 

[D-idara]

I'm incredibly optimistic over Smash 4 but even then my gut still tells me that it's all a bit superficial..."for show" if you will.

I don't think so, Nintendo's not the kind of company who does that people. With all the support they've been showing to the competitive Smash community, I don't think it's 'for show'.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm incredibly optimistic over Smash 4 but even then my gut still tells me that it's all a bit superficial..."for show" if you will.

I can't help but agree. There's really not enough time to change anything that isn't minor balance stuff, but our imput on that is worthless because we're playing an ancient version.