Smash 4 Advanced Technique: Pivot Cancelling/Turndashing(A New Movement Technique!)

[Ghirahilda]

This technique is a dream for me and it's great for long range/spacing characters like

 

[ryuu seika]

I'm not trying to say it's easy, but the timing of dribbling isn't nearly as precise as the timing for L-Cancel, and it's a motion that flows naturally with the game and naturally chains into other motions, L-Cancel's a jarring, offputting 'fix' to a problem that shouldn't be fixed by the players themselves, but by the developer, the answer? Just cut landing lag across the board and make L-Cancel pointless, there, everyone plays a faster game FROM THE START. <--This is the keyword here, from the start, no bull****, no obscure secrets, 100% core game mechanics.

I'm not sure how right you are on that. The timing for dribbling is a lot more precise than you'd think, it just doesn't seem that way because it is intuitive due in part to it being visible and in part to you yourself creating the timing when you initiate it, the latter of which I guess is kind of applicable to L-Cancelling.

L-Cancelling in Smash 64 was never meant to be used consistently, it was merely a get out clause for the developers. They wanted to give the AI ridiculous advantages such as zero lag when transitioning from ground to air but thought players would complain if they let the AI do things that no real person could.
Sadly, as players got too into the game, the trick became ingrained into competitive play and suddenly it was mandatory to compete because of the huge advantage it gave. In a way, you could blame the players for this.

By the time Melee came out, it was obvious that the players were making full use of a mechanic they were never expected to and one that completely altered the game. The developers should have taken that opportunity to remove the feature and maybe lessen landing lag a bit to keep players happy. After all, the AI was nolonger abusing it so it had no reason to exist.
Instead, they simply nerfed it to half strength, a power level that still left it very strong, to the point where it was still a huge advantage for those willing to put in the effort to master it. Not to the point where it entirely outweighed game skill but to the point where a skilled player with L-Cancelling ability would be hard pressed to lose to a non-L-Canceller, even if their skill was yet greater.

Many things could have been done to alleviate this problem but nothing was until Brawl, a game that, in the opinions of many, got few other things right.

Good game design is not about hiding arbitrary locks from the players, it's about showing them all the tools from the start and letting them work everything else out for themselves.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm not sure how right you are on that. The timing for dribbling is a lot more precise than you'd think, it just doesn't seem that way because it is intuitive due in part to it being visible and in part to you yourself creating the timing when you initiate it, the latter of which I guess is kind of applicable to L-Cancelling.

L-Cancelling in Smash 64 was never meant to be used consistently, it was merely a get out clause for the developers. They wanted to give the AI ridiculous advantages such as zero lag when transitioning from ground to air but thought players would complain if they let the AI do things that no real person could.
Sadly, as players got too into the game, the trick became ingrained into competitive play and suddenly it was mandatory to compete because of the huge advantage it gave. In a way, you could blame the players for this.

By the time Melee came out, it was obvious that the players were making full use of a mechanic they were never expected to and one that completely altered the game. The developers should have taken that opportunity to remove the feature and maybe lessen landing lag a bit to keep players happy. After all, the AI was nolonger abusing it so it had no reason to exist.
Instead, they simply nerfed it to half strength, a power level that still left it very strong, to the point where it was still a huge advantage for those willing to put in the effort to master it. Not to the point where it entirely outweighed game skill but to the point where a skilled player with L-Cancelling ability would be hard pressed to lose to a non-L-Canceller, even if their skill was yet greater.

Many things could have been done to alleviate this problem but nothing was until Brawl, a game that, in the opinions of many, got few other things right.

Good game design is not about hiding arbitrary locks from the players, it's about showing them all the tools from the start and letting them work everything else out for themselves.

Which is why there is nothing wrong with a technical game. Just have it teach it to the players in a tutorial. And make it so there are simpler and just as effective techniques in a game as say, wavedashing.

 

[Jdebz]

Looks like it could be really good for Marth and Lucina.

 

[Galespark]

This AT definitely has potential, especially with characters like Marth. In Melee/PM, most Marth users Wavedash to F-Smash to space or approach while searching for the sword tipper.

I can see this having a similar use.

 

[Terotrous]

I'd definitely go with Pivot Cancel for the name, because that's exactly what it is. You cancel the pivot animation with something else.

I recall hearing that you can use the C-Stick to smash in any direction, including the one you were running in, so run up FSmash will be huge for some characters (or run up DSmash for others).

I wonder if you can do run up FTilt if you have C-Stick mapped to Attack?

 

[StriCNYN3]

Hmm, this does make me wonder, since apparently you can pivot cancel with jab, making you face the other way, maybe certain characters with fast jabs can do some sorta pseudo dash dance maneuver?

Like, I know Lil Mac's first jab is very, very quick going by the 3DS moveset vid, so maybe depending on how quick he can act of jab, he can like dash > pivot cancel > empty jab > dash > pivot cancel > jab rinse and repeat while timing your jabs to get the desired spacing?

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

This technique could be really useful for characters with power b-airs; e.g. dashing toward an opponent and immediately turning, jumping, and hitting them with a b-air. Could be quite valuable for some characters.

I like this technique, because it increases options on approach, and could enhance the offensive metagame.

 

[pizzapie7]

I'm not mega bait :I I'm just againist the notion that top players should be forced to go through the painful process of learning ridiculous advanced techniques like L-Cancel (Wavedash doesn't seem that ridiculous because you don't have to do it with EVERY SINGLE AERIAL, although it's still pretty hard to do consistently). I like this technique because, although it seems tricky to pull off, it's not AS tricky as Wavedash, L-Cancel or the overly-ridiculous DACUS.

I want a game where you can start working on your fundamentals without the fear of something suddenly being discovered that will destroy your fundamentals, some game-breaking technique that will make it play nothing like before, that's the kind of things I don't want to happen, because they twist the player's arms into learning something that they shouldn't have to learn or practice in the first place, the answer will never be 'suck it up' because these are videogames, these aren't live sports where we need extreme physical condition to participate. The easier everything is to do, the faster people can actually focus on getting better, for real.

I'm not trying to say it's easy, but the timing of dribbling isn't nearly as precise as the timing for L-Cancel, and it's a motion that flows naturally with the game and naturally chains into other motions, L-Cancel's a jarring, offputting 'fix' to a problem that shouldn't be fixed by the players themselves, but by the developer, the answer? Just cut landing lag across the board and make L-Cancel pointless, there, everyone plays a faster game FROM THE START. <--This is the keyword here, from the start, no bull****, no obscure secrets, 100% core game mechanics.

Just because this isn't live sports doesn't mean you don't need extreme physical condition. You're still going to need reflexes, dexterity. Look at any top level competitive video game, Quake, CS, Dota, SC, anything in the FGC. There is a clear tech barrier there, regardless of what it looks like. But even aside from tech, there are other larger barriers like an experience gap, knowledge of the flow of the game, things like that. The answer should be 'suck it up' because you are honestly at some point going to need to hunker down and actually get good at video games. Whether or not tech is removed this will need to happen.

But you're not bait like others have said. I totally agree with your last point. I think that should be the first step actually. Explain to the player what the tech is, how to do it, how to apply it. Put in a tutorial that's actually worth watching. If after that, it's still "too hard" (which I doubt it would be after properly explained) then think about removing it. But I don't think just making it known from the beginning would ease a lot of the animosity I'm sensing toward things like wavedashing and DACUSing in this thread. To a lot of people tech is tech and if they have to actually practice and not have fun it's bad. Tough ****, kids. Sometimes you need to sit in your driveway for hours just practicing your dribbling before you can play a full competitive game.

 

[Bladeviper]

Just because this isn't live sports doesn't mean you don't need extreme physical condition. You're still going to need reflexes, dexterity. Look at any top level competitive video game, Quake, CS, Dota, SC, anything in the FGC. There is a clear tech barrier there, regardless of what it looks like. But even aside from tech, there are other larger barriers like an experience gap, knowledge of the flow of the game, things like that. The answer should be 'suck it up' because you are honestly at some point going to need to hunker down and actually get good at video games. Whether or not tech is removed this will need to happen.

But you're not bait like others have said. I totally agree with your last point. I think that should be the first step actually. Explain to the player what the tech is, how to do it, how to apply it. Put in a tutorial that's actually worth watching. If after that, it's still "too hard" (which I doubt it would be after properly explained) then think about removing it. But I don't think just making it known from the beginning would ease a lot of the animosity I'm sensing toward things like wavedashing and DACUSing in this thread. To a lot of people tech is tech and if they have to actually practice and not have fun it's bad. Tough ****, kids. Sometimes you need to sit in your driveway for hours just practicing your dribbling before you can play a full competitive game.

ok so my take on whether or not a tech should be hard is i don't care too much, if its hard and i wanna get better ill learn it thats fine with me, my main problem is when the way to do it starts to hurt my hands. You brought up dota, i can learn the higher levels of dota through practice but at least when i am doing it my hand doesnt feel like its gonna fall off after a period of play.

 

[LancerStaff]

I like this "tech" because it isn't one. It's just turning around and attacking. Like Brawl's dashing Usmash. Or a walking Ftilt. The only reason people think it's a tech is because they're comparing it to previous games, when in reality it's just that the character is doing something not previously possible.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I like this "tech" because it isn't one. It's just turning around and attacking. Like Brawl's dashing Usmash. Or a walking Ftilt. The only reason people think it's a tech is because they're comparing it to previous games, when in reality it's just that the character is doing something not previously possible.

It is a tech in the sense its an advanced technique that the average player doesn't perform.

 

[D-idara]

Just because this isn't live sports doesn't mean you don't need extreme physical condition. You're still going to need reflexes, dexterity. Look at any top level competitive video game, Quake, CS, Dota, SC, anything in the FGC. There is a clear tech barrier there, regardless of what it looks like. But even aside from tech, there are other larger barriers like an experience gap, knowledge of the flow of the game, things like that. The answer should be 'suck it up' because you are honestly at some point going to need to hunker down and actually get good at video games. Whether or not tech is removed this will need to happen.

But you're not bait like others have said. I totally agree with your last point. I think that should be the first step actually. Explain to the player what the tech is, how to do it, how to apply it. Put in a tutorial that's actually worth watching. If after that, it's still "too hard" (which I doubt it would be after properly explained) then think about removing it. But I don't think just making it known from the beginning would ease a lot of the animosity I'm sensing toward things like wavedashing and DACUSing in this thread. To a lot of people tech is tech and if they have to actually practice and not have fun it's bad. Tough ****, kids. Sometimes you need to sit in your driveway for hours just practicing your dribbling before you can play a full competitive game.

We play games to have fun, when we're not having fun, what's the point? And don't even try to suggest that I'm bad at videogames, because I'm not, I'm only kinda-bad at Smash. Everyone knows that learning through fun methods will always be much more effective than deliberate and arbitrary methods, and what's a fun method of learning? Actually playing the game and honing your fundamentals through actual gameplay, not practice mode. L-Cancel's not that hard on its own, but with the cluster**** of actions on an average Smash match, it gets really hard to consistently do it, and that's not the point of Smash.

For example, how would it be like if L-Cancel was done through holding down as you land? You'd already do it from a fastfall and it makes sense as you're kinda 'bracing for impact'...it'd flow naturally with the game's mechanics and with the inputs of the attack you're actually doing. I just want the game to be easier, I know that at some point you're just going to have to get better, I just want the transition into actually getting better to be much easier than it is right now, just so you can understand how obscure L-Cancel is...today I finally started to get it right, you know why? Because everyone said 'hit L as you land' and I was hitting L right as I landed, then I read that it's a 7-frame window BEFORE you land, and now I can sorta do it consistently.

IF Sakurai decides to keep L-Cancel, it should be explained well and the window for doing it should be at least double the frames, like it was on 64, where it felt much easier and much more intuitive, remembering to do it was enough to do it, in Melee and Project M you need to both remember to do it and have the reaction time to do so.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

For example, how would it be like if L-Cancel was done through holding down as you land? You'd already do it from a fastfall and it makes sense as you're kinda 'bracing for impact'...it'd flow naturally with the game's mechanics and with the inputs of the attack you're actually doing. I just want the game to be easier, I know that at some point you're just going to have to get better, I just want the transition into actually getting better to be much easier than it is right now, just so you can understand how obscure L-Cancel is...today I finally started to get it right, you know why? Because everyone said 'hit L as you land' and I was hitting L right as I landed, then I read that it's a 7-frame window BEFORE you land, and now I can sorta do it consistently.

I really like that idea! It would flow much better and wouldn't be hard to do in the least bit! You're already fast falling, which is as simple as it can get, simply pressing down while in mid-air, and since you're already holding down, you simply hit the ground and keep on going. And unlike other techs, there is no situation in which you do NOT want reduced landing lag.

'course, better yet, they should just reduce landing lag across the board, but maybe this will help the tech junkies get some sort of fix in, even if the tech itself isn't that hard to perform.

 

[pizzapie7]

We play games to have fun, when we're not having fun, what's the point? And don't even try to suggest that I'm bad at videogames, because I'm not, I'm only kinda-bad at Smash. Everyone knows that learning through fun methods will always be much more effective than deliberate and arbitrary methods, and what's a fun method of learning? Actually playing the game and honing your fundamentals through actual gameplay, not practice mode. L-Cancel's not that hard on its own, but with the cluster**** of actions on an average Smash match, it gets really hard to consistently do it, and that's not the point of Smash.

For example, how would it be like if L-Cancel was done through holding down as you land? You'd already do it from a fastfall and it makes sense as you're kinda 'bracing for impact'...it'd flow naturally with the game's mechanics and with the inputs of the attack you're actually doing. I just want the game to be easier, I know that at some point you're just going to have to get better, I just want the transition into actually getting better to be much easier than it is right now, just so you can understand how obscure L-Cancel is...today I finally started to get it right, you know why? Because everyone said 'hit L as you land' and I was hitting L right as I landed, then I read that it's a 7-frame window BEFORE you land, and now I can sorta do it consistently.

IF Sakurai decides to keep L-Cancel, it should be explained well and the window for doing it should be at least double the frames, like it was on 64, where it felt much easier and much more intuitive, remembering to do it was enough to do it, in Melee and Project M you need to both remember to do it and have the reaction time to do so.

I was not trying to suggest you were bad at video games, I'm sorry if I came across that way. Hell, I totally agree with you on l-cancelling in general, and I'd like your suggestion. I mean practice can be fun, and you need to practice in order to win and have more fun down the line. It's just something necessary, you're going to need to put it into your muscle memory before you can properly implement it in your actual play.

I'm all for making things simpler and making them more open, but there are plenty of people here who would still hate wavedashing even if it was explained because it's "too hard". I've always considered too hard as the biggest cop out in the world.

 

[JediLink]

I'm no expect in basketball, but don't you have to dribble the ball so that the other team can feasibly steal it (as apposed to just holding it to your chest with both arms or something)?

 

[D-idara]

I was not trying to suggest you were bad at video games, I'm sorry if I came across that way. Hell, I totally agree with you on l-cancelling in general, and I'd like your suggestion. I mean practice can be fun, and you need to practice in order to win and have more fun down the line. It's just something necessary, you're going to need to put it into your muscle memory before you can properly implement it in your actual play.

I'm all for making things simpler and making them more open, but there are plenty of people here who would still hate wavedashing even if it was explained because it's "too hard". I've always considered too hard as the biggest cop out in the world.

Now, that's true, we all need to practice sooner or later, but IMO, the best game design will make you spend much more time on actual fights, honing your already-acquired skills than practicing new skills on Practice mode, and EVEN BETTER game design will introduce those new skills through the gameplay itself, I know it's a long shot and a different kind of game, but take Guacamelee for example, that game's a Metroidvania-style game with heavy platforming, and as you progress through the game you're given a lot of abilities with overworld uses that work similarily during combat, and as you get better at clearing obstacles with those abilities, you're also learning how they work, applying them better in combat, now, I don't know how this could be implemented with L-Cancel or Wavedash, or Turndash for that matter, but things like shorthops, power-shielding, teching and such could be taught through obstacle courses on Adventure Mode that require their use.

There's a thing, though, Wavedash IS a little too hard, and I don't mean that things should never be hard, but the command seems more like it would fit on a Street Fighter game than Smash, where simplicity rules, hell, even two of the three most used advanced techs in Melee require a fairly simplistic use of one command, L-Cancel (A simple button press, although tricky to time right) and Dashdancing (Simply wiggling the control stick back and forth quickly). Wavedash could be simplified or replaced, and right now the closest thing we seem to have on this game is Turndash, which allows things out a dash that a normal dash wouldn't, and it's achieved kinda the same way as Dashdancing.

I'm no expect in basketball, but don't you have to dribble the ball so that the other team can feasibly steal it (as apposed to just holding it to your chest with both arms or something)?

In that regard, dribbling's very similar to L-Cancel, as it works as an arbitrary mechanic to compensate for a glaring hole in the 'gameplay'. But there's a thing, Dribbling also has this little psychological and physical effect, I don't know if it has a name, but it's sort of a feeling of momentum, when the player stops and dribbles the ball, even for just a second, they're not really stopping because they're still doing a quick action, and I've heard from a lot of people who play Basketball that dribbling keeps them concentrated. Although IMO, L-Cancel does the exact opposite there, as it's a command that has nothing to do with the action being done, it kind of breaks momentum and flow, and only through muscle memory the player can keep that momentum while doing the L-Cancel, that's why I suggested the 'hold down to cancel lag' thingie, because it keeps the flow of the game.

EDIT: Another thing I just thought, also borrowed from Guacamelee...how about special event matches where you can't perform certain actions? Like "Win without the ability to do dash attacks" or "Win without dodging" or "Win without shielding"? That would certainly be great for teaching people how to get out of certain situations when a familiar option can't be used because of whatever reason.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

If Marth's meta becomes more groundbased, this might help a lot.

 

[Beats]

This technique could be really useful for characters with power b-airs; e.g. dashing toward an opponent and immediately turning, jumping, and hitting them with a b-air. Could be quite valuable for some characters.

I like this technique, because it increases options on approach, and could enhance the offensive metagame.

Isn't this just RAR, which was already in Brawl?

We play games to have fun, when we're not having fun, what's the point? And don't even try to suggest that I'm bad at videogames, because I'm not, I'm only kinda-bad at Smash. Everyone knows that learning through fun methods will always be much more effective than deliberate and arbitrary methods, and what's a fun method of learning? Actually playing the game and honing your fundamentals through actual gameplay, not practice mode. L-Cancel's not that hard on its own, but with the cluster**** of actions on an average Smash match, it gets really hard to consistently do it, and that's not the point of Smash.

For example, how would it be like if L-Cancel was done through holding down as you land? You'd already do it from a fastfall and it makes sense as you're kinda 'bracing for impact'...it'd flow naturally with the game's mechanics and with the inputs of the attack you're actually doing. I just want the game to be easier, I know that at some point you're just going to have to get better, I just want the transition into actually getting better to be much easier than it is right now, just so you can understand how obscure L-Cancel is...today I finally started to get it right, you know why? Because everyone said 'hit L as you land' and I was hitting L right as I landed, then I read that it's a 7-frame window BEFORE you land, and now I can sorta do it consistently.

IF Sakurai decides to keep L-Cancel, it should be explained well and the window for doing it should be at least double the frames, like it was on 64, where it felt much easier and much more intuitive, remembering to do it was enough to do it, in Melee and Project M you need to both remember to do it and have the reaction time to do so.

Personally I find tech grinding a pretty enjoyable experience. I totally understand that there are people who don't find it fun at all, but fun being as subjective at as it is, I actually do. I'm pretty neutral about whether a game should or shouldn't have difficult tech, because I do think accessible games are great despite my own preferences. Also, tech practice isn't completely done in the lab. I'll always try and use techs while playing with people even if I fail it most of the time, until eventually it gets better. And when you finally get it right and it leads to a KO, all the more rewarding.

It may be because I'm a musician, so grinding out hours every day in the practice room is just a part of my life. It's sort of like a labour of love, and I find it both relaxing and fulfilling. That's probably where it translates into my gaming habits.

 

[D-idara]

Isn't this just RAR, which was already in Brawl?



Personally I find tech grinding a pretty enjoyable experience. I totally understand that there are people who don't find it fun at all, but fun being as subjective at as it is, I actually do. I'm pretty neutral about whether a game should or shouldn't have difficult tech, because I do think accessible games are great despite my own preferences. Also, tech practice isn't completely done in the lab. I'll always try and use techs while playing with people even if I fail it most of the time, until eventually it gets better. And when you finally get it right and it leads to a KO, all the more rewarding.

It may be because I'm a musician, so grinding out hours every day in the practice room is just a part of my life. It's sort of like a labour of love, and I find it both relaxing and fulfilling. That's probably where it translates into my gaming habits.

I'm an artist and I draw, and of course I do sketch practice sheets and that sort of stuff, but I certainly feel like I'm learning much quicker and having much more fun while doing so when I actually practice new 'techniques' on a new, finished picture, rather than practicing them as standalone things. Yes, there has to be some degree of practice, but the more you can learn without feeling like you're strictly 'learning', the better.

 

[Beats]

I'm an artist and I draw, and of course I do sketch practice sheets and that sort of stuff, but I certainly feel like I'm learning much quicker and having much more fun while doing so when I actually practice new 'techniques' on a new, finished picture, rather than practicing them as standalone things. Yes, there has to be some degree of practice, but the more you can learn without feeling like you're strictly 'learning', the better.

Well different people enjoy different things, and as I mentioned I actually enjoy the learning and practicing portion. And also as I mentioned, practicing tech doesn't at all have to be a standalone thing. You might go into practice mode a bit to see how it works, sure, but most of the fine tuning can be done in actual play. In fact, it should be done in actual play to better understand how it functions practically.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I'm fine with advanced techniques that don't incur immediate physical pain or cause long-term damage. The former issue seems to be pretty much non-existent and the second is rare/only in extreme cases.

That said, I also think that L-canceling and other techniques that are similarly arbitrary don't really add any meaningful difficulty to the game and shouldn't return.

For the record - I'm not a competitive Smash player by any means and so don't have much firsthand experience with advanced tech.

 

[LancerStaff]

It is a tech in the sense its an advanced technique that the average player doesn't perform.

The average player won't turn around and attack?
And I used to dash Usmash all the time before ever hearing of Smashboards, much less any technique that wasn't Wavedashing or IDC.

 

[PingPongCop]

I'm sure maybe a few of you have seen it but for those of you who are claiming that "this tech has no use" then watch this clip again.

I couldn't help but think that this vaguely resembles what we saw in this video right in the beginning.

Mario cancels out his sliding animation with Jab, when in previous games he would have just done nothing or a dash attack. I feel like the dev team may know something about this.

Also, it may be possible to turn around again and by buffering an input similar to the item toss, but who knows.

Lol it's funny, I was actually talking about having something exactly like this a while back.

Not ONLY does Mario Pivot Cancel into a Jab, but...

Mario dodges Megaman's uppercut, dashes then immediately turns and grabs! Even though it's small difference in distance it could very well be the difference between a grab resulting in a K.O or not.This proves Pivot Cancelling is useful!

Also I would really like to thank @ E Eternal phoenix Fire for posting the video here

 

[κomıc]

I can already see the Diddys bananadashing.

Oh god.

Lady Palutena, reflect that ****!

 

[Jellyfish4102]

The average player won't turn around and attack?
And I used to dash Usmash all the time before ever hearing of Smashboards, much less any technique that wasn't Wavedashing or IDC.

I hope you're trolling because it's clearly not that simple. No casuals don't know to dash forward, turn around, and then throw an attack in your original direction to slide your character forward.

Oh god.

Lady Palutena, reflect that ****!

Thankfully there seems to be a lot of characters that can deal with bananas in sm4sh such as Rosalina, Villager, and now Olimar.

 

[pizzapie7]

I'm an artist and I draw, and of course I do sketch practice sheets and that sort of stuff, but I certainly feel like I'm learning much quicker and having much more fun while doing so when I actually practice new 'techniques' on a new, finished picture, rather than practicing them as standalone things. Yes, there has to be some degree of practice, but the more you can learn without feeling like you're strictly 'learning', the better.

Striking a balance between learning and fun is difficult in a lot of games. I feel like a decent online mode with an in-game rating system of sort could alleviate a lot of the stress involved though. You can visually see your improvement as a player as you rise through the ranks for little to no consequence. It's serious fights so you can utilize what you've practiced for in short bursts and see your progression. No travel or payment for entering a tournament. No real pressure. You just play people at around your skill level and learn as you go.

 

[Beatness]

I'm seeing this technique and all I'm think about is sonic. Unless there is someone faster, Sonic is gonna be amazing with this technique.

 

[D-idara]

Striking a balance between learning and fun is difficult in a lot of games. I feel like a decent online mode with an in-game rating system of sort could alleviate a lot of the stress involved though. You can visually see your improvement as a player as you rise through the ranks for little to no consequence. It's serious fights so you can utilize what you've practiced for in short bursts and see your progression. No travel or payment for entering a tournament. No real pressure. You just play people at around your skill level and learn as you go.

The ranking won't be visible, but at least For Glory puts you againist people of your level. So it's something!

 

[ryuu seika]

Rankings might give a feeling of progression but that only worsens the blow when you come across people who beat you consistently with tricks you never knew existed and have no idea how to perform. It does not alleviate the issues caused by not teaching players the game mechanics.

For a tutorial that really involves its players and forces them to steadily progress, see the single player mode of Soul Calibur: Broken Destiny. Something like that should never have replace the actual 1P campaign as it's not nearly as fun as actual gameplay but it is a lot closer than a tutorial video or a "practice mode". It teaches the player as they go along, shows them the implementation of the techniques in simulated game situations where they must learn to pull them off and instils a great sense of progression into the learning process.

It is a terrible example of a story mode but it is also the best fighting game tutorial I have ever seen and it taught me an awful lot about how the franchise works, despite me having played a good deal of 2 and 3 prior to it.

 

[PCHU]

Rankings might give a feeling of progression but that only worsens the blow when you come across people who beat you consistently with tricks you never knew existed and have no idea how to perform. It does not alleviate the issues caused by not teaching players the game mechanics.

For a tutorial that really involves its players and forces them to steadily progress, see the single player mode of Soul Calibur: Broken Destiny. Something like that should never have replace the actual 1P campaign as it's not nearly as fun as actual gameplay but it is a lot closer than a tutorial video or a "practice mode". It teaches the player as they go along, shows them the implementation of the techniques in simulated game situations where they must learn to pull them off and instils a great sense of progression into the learning process.

It is a terrible example of a story mode but it is also the best fighting game tutorial I have ever seen and it taught me an awful lot about how the franchise works, despite me having played a good deal of 2 and 3 prior to it.

But then, you have people like the old me, who want to be good at the game and know a few "combos", but can't read the combo notation and don't care enough to learn all the intricacies (but still want to win every match).
I still don't know how to do half that stuff, but it's my own fault for not caring enough to really try (not to mention I don't play it anymore).

As far as techniques purposely put into the game, I agree, there -should- be an advanced section in either the manual or the game's tutorial videos, but in regards to most of Brawl's stuff, that's just stuff we kinda found.
Any time someone doesn't understand what I'm doing, I'm quick to tell them exactly what it is, how it works (provided I know), and how to do it.
Then again, even if you do offer explanations, there will always be people that don't like the way you play even if they don't notice that you're using a technique they're not familiar with; some people hate getting beaten because they think they know everything about the game, so they're quick to point fingers at whatever they can to make themselves seem like they're actually the better player.
This is coming from someone who's worked with competitive players who want to be good but get irritated easily upon losing as well as casual players who can't seem to adapt and lose interest in learning the game.
It's a really awkward situation whenever someone gets disheartened or mad over something they don't understand or something pertaining to their own inadequacies; if Smash can find a way to fix this, that'll be awesome.

Not trying to start anything back up or whatever, just giving my own experiences.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'm willing to bet an additional copy of the game that it and anything resembling it is going to be patched out before or soon after the final build.

 

[GalacticPetey]

I'm willing to bet an additional copy of the game that it and anything resembling it is going to be patched out before or soon after the final build.

I don't know. It seems intentional.

 

[LancerStaff]

I hope you're trolling because it's clearly not that simple. No casuals don't know to dash forward, turn around, and then throw an attack in your original direction to slide your character forward.

Thankfully there seems to be a lot of characters that can deal with bananas in sm4sh such as Rosalina, Villager, and now Olimar.

They obviously wouldn't know about the sliding thing the first time, but it's simply turning around and attacking. Throwing an attack out in the original direction? The video doesn't say a thing about that. I don't see what's so impossible for a casual to comprehend.

I'm willing to bet an additional copy of the game that it and anything resembling it is going to be patched out before or soon after the final build.

I thought I was supposed to rain on the competitive parades. Anyway, we've seen this in a couple trailers now. I'm pretty sure it's staying, not that I really care if it does.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

They obviously wouldn't know about the sliding thing the first time, but it's simply turning around and attacking. Throwing an attack out in the original direction? The video doesn't say a thing about that. I don't see what's so impossible for a casual to comprehend.

The idea of this technique is that you can keep your momentum while throwing out an attack. The mechanics of this are quite simple but aren't something the average player would realize which was my original point.

I don't know. It seems intentional.

Considering it's in the sonic trailer it seems very purposeful.

 

[Untouch]

It seems intentional, but the side effects like attacking and moving aren't.
Doesn't seem like that much to warrant patching out though.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

This reminds me of a thread I made a few months back.

In the smash direct wii fit trainer dashes to the right and f-smashes to the right immediatly after the initial-dash. Maybe that has something to do with this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs

It's at 5:00 in the bottom right corner

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

This reminds me of a thread I made a few months back.

In the smash direct wii fit trainer dashes to the right and f-smashes to the right immediatly after the initial-dash. Maybe that has something to do with this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUWnQu2Grs

It's at 5:00 in the bottom right corner

I also observed that. Thanks for bringing that up.

If the functions from all of these trailers and the sonic trailer are intact, then trotting has some major benefits, however, this is only with trotting.

In Trot Options: any neutral option (assuming this on because of the use jab / the common denominator) and pivot cancel

In Dash options: pivot cancel

I believe this insures that players can't run all the way a cross the stage and do a forward smash facing forward, rather this can be used to read rolls (which in this game, can be cancelled into another roll almost immediately with some characters [notably fox and toon link]) or recoveries.

I wonder if they are actually trying to make trotting into a wavedash? If that's the case, they may as well try to work in some method of platform canceling and seal the deal for ground movement.

 

[Mighty_Guy100]

I wonder if they are actually trying to make trotting into a wavedash? If that's the case, they may as well try to work in some method of platform canceling and seal the deal for ground movement.

It seems like it! Trotting doesint have as much uses as a wavedash but its way easier for new players or people who find wavedash inputs redonk. A new way to platform cancel would be awesome.

 

[LancerStaff]

I also observed that. Thanks for bringing that up.

If the functions from all of these trailers and the sonic trailer are intact, then trotting has some major benefits, however, this is only with trotting.

In Trot Options: any neutral option (assuming this on because of the use jab / the common denominator) and pivot cancel

In Dash options: pivot cancel

I believe this insures that players can't run all the way a cross the stage and do a forward smash facing forward, rather this can be used to read rolls (which in this game, can be cancelled into another roll almost immediately with some characters [notably fox and toon link]) or recoveries.

I wonder if they are actually trying to make trotting into a wavedash? If that's the case, they may as well try to work in some method of platform canceling and seal the deal for ground movement.

Platform canceling? I don't think it'll even be considered since the only stage they're considering for competitive play is FD.