Smash 4 Advanced Technique: Pivot Cancelling/Turndashing(A New Movement Technique!)

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Still... We can see Mario doing it, and I doubt something like this would be glossed over. They intentionally made it easy to do, else they would have caught it, unlike Wavedashing

It seems really legit. But the joke I was referring to was when many of the smashers in 2007 discovered a lot of stuff in the Brawl demo, including wavelanding and dash dancing. I was actually there testing all that ****, and then I played the game again a month later...and to my suprise...lol

 

[Big-Cat]

I think Turndash would be a good name.

Pivot Attack. Bam.

I believe there was a Melee It On Me article around the time of the invitational that brought this up. My guess is that this only works for the initial dash burst.

 

[DownWitDaWaveDash]

I have a bad feeling that it wasn't noticed and that it will be removed if any team member sees it :C

 

[Lozjam]

I have a bad feeling that it wasn't noticed and that it will be removed if any team member sees it :C

I really doubt it. The 3DS version is going to release in Japan in 2 months. That gives them 1 month at the most to be still be working on the game. I don't think they would have the time

 

[MopedOfJustice]

How reliable are ATs discovered in an outdated version of the game?

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

How reliable are ATs discovered in an outdated version of the game?

How do you know that the game is outdated?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Nice work changing the title... Turnaround Cancel was a much better name because it describes what the AT actually does, that being cancelling out the turnaround animation. :/

Pivot Attack. Bam.

This works too.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

How do you know that the game is outdated?

Sakurai said in an interview after the Invitational that the version used there (and at Smashfest) was an older build, IIRC.
I'm trying to find the exact quote, but Fire Emblem pollution makes it rather difficult.

And if I'm wrong and he didn't say that, Smashfest and Smash 4's release are months apart, and I doubt the changes made in that time are purely aesthetic (especially since it was delayed).

 

[DaDavid]

I honestly doubt that it's unintentional, but of course there is the chance that, intentional or not, it has been removed in newer builds. Perhaps the build used at Comic-Con will be newer and we can look for it there?

 

[Lozjam]

Nice work changing the title... Turnaround Cancel was a much better name because it describes what the AT actually does, that being cancelling out the turnaround animation. :/


This works too.

Names such as Wavedashing do not describe what the AT actually does, and Turnaround Cancel does not flow off the tongue very well. Now I think if we wanted to actually describe what it does, Pivot Cancel is shorter and flows better. But Turndashing is a fitting name, as you dash and turn in order to slide

 

[Big-Cat]

Pivot Cancel may be for the best given its vast array of applications. It can be used for a lot of things. There's no point in naming individually each type of application like Pivot Tilt or Pivot Smash.

 

[Johnknight1]

Wait, people didn't know this=???

I found out about it the first match I played, lol.

I mean, I guess people didn't test a lot of 64, Melee, and Brawl (advanced) techniques.

I wonder if people know that buffering is in the game exactly like Brawl...

 

[DaDavid]

I don't see what's wrong with Pivot Cancelling. Sounds natural and describes it perfectly in my opinion.

 

[Lozjam]

I don't see what's wrong with Pivot Cancelling. Sounds natural and describes it perfectly in my opinion.

Pivot Cancel may be for the best given its vast array of applications. It can be used for a lot of things. There's no point in naming individually each type of application like Pivot Tilt or Pivot Smash.

Ok I think it will be unofficially officially named, Pivot Cancelling

 

[D-idara]

Turndash sounds really awesome.

 

[Lozjam]

Turndash sounds really awesome.

Got to try to please everyone. Ok how about this. It can be both.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

At first I felt pivot cancel was the perfect name as it flows well and is descriptive. However, turndashing makes sense too, because it is a form of dash/mobility (like wavedashing) as a result of a turn (doing an attack after a turn gives you a slide).

However like KumaOso mentioned, it won't always be used for a dash, so turndashing can't be an umbrella term for all pivot cancels.

Perhaps it can be both? Pivot Cancel is an umbrella term that includes turn dashing, and turndashing more specifically refers to being able to slide into a standing move after a dash, which is all possible because of a turn.

 

[staindgrey]

Interesting. How quickly can the dash portion be performed out of a turn around? Can one easily run up and backstep away again using this technique so as to bait attacks? Also, if I recall correctly, it has already been confirmed to allow the jab, any tilt or any C smash but not any non-C smash, thereby dividing the Wii U and 3DS versions somewhat.

Unless they make the Circle Pad Pro usable in Smash.

Sincerely hoping they do that.

 

[Lozjam]

At first I felt pivot cancel was the perfect name as it flows well and is descriptive. However, turndashing makes sense too, because it is a form of dash/mobility (like wavedashing) as a result of a turn (doing an attack after a turn gives you a slide).

However like KumaOso mentioned, it won't always be used for a dash, so turndashing can't be an umbrella term for all pivot cancels.

Perhaps it can be both? Pivot Cancel is an umbrella term that includes turn dashing, and turndashing more specifically refers to being able to slide into a standing move after a dash, which is all possible because of a turn.

Fantastic idea.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I don't care what everyone else calls it. I'm calling it turndashing.

 

[Lozjam]

I don't care what everyone else calls it. I'm calling it turndashing.

As will I. I wonder how well it will be received. I mean, I am positive that the competitive community will adore it, and it's an excellent middle ground when it comes to melee and brawl, but how will the casual community react to it? I understand that bunny hopping in Mariokart 8 has been highly controversial.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

As will I. I wonder how well it will be received. I mean, I am positive that the competitive community will adore it, and it's an excellent middle ground when it comes to melee and brawl, but how will the casual community react to it? I understand that bunny hopping in Mariokart 8 has been highly controversial.

Most still don't know what wavedashing is so I doubt they'd even realize it's happening when it does.

 

[Boss N]

I noticed greninja can do this really effectively as well, I was wondering if anyone was going to give it a name. I really hope it's kept in the final game, looks like a tech that's actually easy to perform for once and can mix up the already strong ground game in this edition.

 

[Lozjam]

I noticed greninja can do this really effectively as well, I was wondering if anyone was going to give it a name. I really hope it's kept in the final game, looks like a tech that's actually easy to perform for once and can mix up the already strong ground game in this edition.

Turndashing is the name for this specific technique where you attack with the turn, pivot cancel is the general term.

 

[ImaClubYou]

Obviously this AT needs to be named "Turnt up"

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Oh shoot wait, since there's no C-stick on 3ds then... well this will be the first instance where the Wii U and 3DS versions will have different gameplay =/ and this creates a precedent where they could be even more

Are we 100% sure you need a c-stick smash? Can you perform it if you do a smash with the A button if you're really quick with it and don't let it charge at all?

As will I. I wonder how well it will be received. I mean, I am positive that the competitive community will adore it, and it's an excellent middle ground when it comes to melee and brawl, but how will the casual community react to it? I understand that bunny hopping in Mariokart 8 has been highly controversial.

Yea, I don't think they will have any problems with it. It's nothing extreme that can be seen as an unfair exploit or even as cheating (wavedashing and dashdancing look too unnatural and give huge advantages).

However turndashing isn't like that, it's just running, turning, then doing a move in the other way. It's a little "secret trick" that casuals may find interesting. It's not extreme or unnatural.

 

[Lozjam]

Yea, I don't think they will have any problems with it. It's nothing extreme that can be seen as an unfair exploit or even as cheating (wavedashing and dashdancing look too unnatural and give huge advantages).

However turndashing isn't like that, it's just running, turning, then doing a move in the other way. It's a little "secret trick" that casuals may find interesting. It's not extreme or unnatural.

I applaud you Sakurai. Bridging the gap between Melee and Brawl, Casual and Competitive. Now the vocal minority of Melee that hates smash 4 have no reason to complain. And turndashing is easy to do, and easy on the hands. I hate performing wavedashing(I can perform it, but because I have tendinitis, if I did it a lot my hands and wrists would hurt so bad). I think this will be a huge game changer for Smash 4.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Yea, I don't think they will have any problems with it. It's nothing extreme that can be seen as an unfair exploit or even as cheating (wavedashing and dashdancing look too unnatural and give huge advantages).

However turndashing isn't like that, it's just running, turning, then doing a move in the other way. It's a little "secret trick" that casuals may find interesting. It's not extreme or unnatural.

When was it natural to gain momentum in one direction, then suddenly stop and do an attack with no momentum from the dash? This is smash bros. Nothing is natural about it! A bounty hunter getting beat up by a thing thats 8 inches tall? Because that's natural.

JK, but this is no new technique. Its in PM I believe. And you can do it in Brawl to an extent.

 

[Boss N]

I applaud you Sakurai. Bridging the gap between Melee and Brawl, Casual and Competitive. Now the vocal minority of Melee that hates smash 4 have no reason to complain. And turndashing is easy to do, and easy on the hands. I hate performing wavedashing(I can perform it, but because I have tendinitis, if I did it a lot my hands and wrists would hurt so bad). I think this will be a huge game changer for Smash 4.

I can't wait to see what else has been slipped into the game, I'm so excited for the competitive scene for this game cuz tech skills may no longer be a necessity to be great (Looks at melee)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Pivot Attack. Bam.

I believe there was a Melee It On Me article around the time of the invitational that brought this up. My guess is that this only works for the initial dash burst.

Nope, it works at anytime; I can confirm from experience. You can run halfway across the stage, pivot, and then ftilt back in the direction you were originally running if you want. It seems very powerful.

---

To respond to a lot of other stuff in the topic, arguing about what to name stuff is one of the less attractive qualities of the smash community. It makes us look dumb to name tons of stuff and carry on about the names of stuff. First, let's see if it's even in the final game. Second, if it is, let's just focus on playing the game well and, as we need to talk about the mechanic itself, a name might develop naturally. The only time we should really be talking about the name is if we begin to find a dumb name enter common use (a "dumb name" is a name with a non-obvious meaning from what the name is, see traditional FGC "kara" for a great example of a bad name for something). In that case, we can talk it over and decide on a name that doesn't suck. Until then, let's not worry about hte name, okay?

 

[Lozjam]

When was it natural to gain momentum in one direction, then suddenly stop and do an attack with no momentum from the dash? This is smash bros. Nothing is natural about it! A bounty hunter getting beat up by a thing thats 8 inches tall? Because that's natural.

JK, but this is no new technique. Its in PM I believe. And you can do it in Brawl to an extent.

They aren't losing that momentum though, they are sliding while performing it. I do not believe it is in P:M or Brawl, the closest thing in brawl is you could pivot jump, but that's it. I don't thin there is anything close to this in P:M. Unless you count wavedashing

 

[victinivcreate1]

I can't wait to see what else has been slipped into the game, I'm so excited for the competitive scene for this game cuz tech skills may no longer be a necessity to be great (Looks at melee)

If you think you're getting bodied by pros because you have slow hands, well its much more than that. Pros are reading you and you're not catching on. You don't need superb tech skill to be a pro. Hungrybox is a spacing demon with Jiggly. Not much tech skill in that. But he reads very well. Then you have say Dark. Tech skill god. Nowhere near top player caliber. Tech skill does not make a pro. Application and fundamental mastery does. Tech is just extra flash tbh

@ Lozjam http://smashboards.com/threads/dash-pivot-tilts-are-easy-in-pm.354189/

 

[Lozjam]

If you think you're getting bodied by pros because you have slow hands, well its much more than that. Pros are reading you and you're not catching on. You don't need superb tech skill to be a pro. Hungrybox is a spacing demon with Jiggly. Not much tech skill in that. But he reads very well. Then you have say Dark. Tech skill god. Nowhere near top player caliber. Tech skill does not make a pro. Application and fundamental mastery does. Tech is just extra flash tbh

@ Lozjam http://smashboards.com/threads/dash-pivot-tilts-are-easy-in-pm.354189/

That's a little different, or should I say. A lot. In PM if you pivot tilt, you stop the dash. In Smash 4 you still carry the momentum and slide as you perform the smash or tilt or items throw.

 

[victinivcreate1]

That's a little different, or should I say. A lot. In PM if you pivot tilt, you stop the dash. In Smash 4 you still carry the momentum and slide as you perform the smash or tilt or items throw.

From the video, doesn't look like you slide all that much tbh.

 

[Senario]

I applaud you Sakurai. Bridging the gap between Melee and Brawl, Casual and Competitive. Now the vocal minority of Melee that hates smash 4 have no reason to complain. And turndashing is easy to do, and easy on the hands. I hate performing wavedashing(I can perform it, but because I have tendinitis, if I did it a lot my hands and wrists would hurt so bad). I think this will be a huge game changer for Smash 4.

And so it begins! Let the hate train against competitive players start for no reason! >.> Sakurai has a lot of work to do to bridge the gap properly. Nintendo is doing most of the research and Sakurai is being dragged along because he is a stubborn guy.

Nice thing this move but I wish we had dash dancing. I don't think it is prohibitively difficult or unnatural looking. It just gives you a good feeling of control over your character. You press one direction, you dash, you press another, you dash. Not that "Natural looking" matters in a game where hitting a person sends them flying upward several feet into the air. It doesn't look natural that Yoshi gets his eggs out of nowhere or peach can pull turnips out of even the least likely growing surfaces for turnips.

Also, it isn't that they hate Smash 4. They want to see the best come out of it for both groups and if their constructive criticism is something you take as "Hate" there is no helping you. It isn't like you are much better, you hate on the competitive community from ignorance. Many competitive players are fine with wavedashing not coming back, and Landing Lag just being low across the board instead of L cancelling. Regardless of these techs though, you'd still get bodied by good players.

 

[Boss N]

If you think you're getting bodied by pros because you have slow hands, well its much more than that. Pros are reading you and you're not catching on. You don't need superb tech skill to be a pro. Hungrybox is a spacing demon with Jiggly. Not much tech skill in that. But he reads very well. Then you have say Dark. Tech skill god. Nowhere near top player caliber. Tech skill does not make a pro. Application and fundamental mastery does. Tech is just extra flash tbh

@ Lozjam http://smashboards.com/threads/dash-pivot-tilts-are-easy-in-pm.354189/

I'm glad someones else believes that, I know a smarter player player will trump any other kind of player, (I've been holding my own in PM pretty well despite only having 2 months of competitive play and little tech skill) but you can't deny that it's always a challenge trying to fight a hardcore former melee player who knows how to move lightning fast and spam techs more than I spam Link's projectiles.

 

[victinivcreate1]

And so it begins! Let the hate train against competitive players start for no reason! >.> Sakurai has a lot of work to do to bridge the gap properly. Nintendo is doing most of the research and Sakurai is being dragged along because he is a stubborn guy.

Nice thing this move but I wish we had dash dancing. I don't think it is prohibitively difficult or unnatural looking. It just gives you a good feeling of control over your character. You press one direction, you dash, you press another, you dash. Not that "Natural looking" matters in a game where hitting a person sends them flying upward several feet into the air. It doesn't look natural that Yoshi gets his eggs out of nowhere or peach can pull turnips out of even the least likely growing surfaces for turnips.

Also, it isn't that they hate Smash 4. They want to see the best come out of it for both groups and if their constructive criticism is something you take as "Hate" there is no helping you. It isn't like you are much better, you hate on the competitive community from ignorance. Many competitive players are fine with wavedashing not coming back, and Landing Lag just being low across the board instead of L cancelling. Regardless of these techs though, you'd still get bodied by good players.

EXACTLY.

Tech skill is just flash.
Beginner Competitve player=weak fundamentals, no reads or very few reads
Good players=good fundamentals, reads
Pros=Great fundamentals and strong reads
Demi God=see Mango, Ken, etc
God=Isai in 64, MAYBE

Most of the players who complain about tech being "hard" are the beginners. They'll get bodied regardless of tech skill. They're just bad to begin with.

I'd consider myself on the low end of good players. I can be technical when I like, but I tend to choke all day long and flub stuff lol. Thing is, I have pretty solid reads/DI traps/baits which keeps me afloat vs much more technical players.

 

[Lozjam]

From the video, doesn't look like you slide all that much tbh.

Look at Mario's forward smash a little closer. It is a significant slide that would probably be about the size of a medium range Wavedash. That is significant while approaching and will be so useful for spacing and characters like Marth.

 

[Senario]

God=Isai in 64, MAYBE

Don't you mean "God = Isai in 64 PERIOD"? Lol, wrecks you with anybody and is so good. A shame 64 is not played as much.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Don't you mean "God = Isai in 64 PERIOD"? Lol, wrecks you with anybody and is so good. A shame 64 is not played as much.

IDK. Isai sandbags so much, I can't tell whether he's just that godlike, or he just downloaded everyone in the US and knows how to counter each individual playstyle lol, so he can go bottom tiers and still kick booty