Slight balance worries for 2.6

[SpiderMad]

Pika use to be a deity pre2.1, and currently no one knows how his P:M QAC works or has uses for (If you want a grab out of it you cancel the ending with Up-air L-cancel for the shortest amount of landing lag for going into grab or something)

 

[Dakpo]

pikachus recovery is broken (as in it has lots of bugs)

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

let's stop talking about GnW and talk about characters that actually are in need and are under represented

like Luigi, Pika, DDD.

For Luigi in particular, having a way to force his opponents to stay on the ground instead of the air would help him immensely. The change I have in mind is an Anti-Air Fireball. Being able to shoot fireballs at a upward-diagonal direction while on the ground, at around 25-40 degree angle or something like that, would force opponents to stay on the ground more. And by doing this, Luigi will have more opportunities to open his opponents up to his wavedash shenanigans on the ground, or to finish opponents off with a well-timed Misfire or his Up B. Making an Anti-Air Fireball as an alternate option to his normal fireball by holding down the B button or just tapping it would be an excellent change, in my opinion.

However, this would only allow Luigi to shoot up, but not down. I can see his Fireballs being way too spammable if that were true. Additionally, he should not be able to shoot fireballs upwards while he is in the air...simply because there wouldn't be much of a point to it, and it would look silly if done in the air. Anyways though, I would like to hear thoughts on this idea.

Also, two other changes to consider are adding more shield damage to his Dash Attack (...or to make a new Dash Attack entirely), and giving Luigi a faster FastFall, so that Luigi is less vulnerable in the air. Just having one of these changes would help Luigi out a lot. Well, probably not the additional shield damage for his dash attack when compared to the other two suggestions. *shrugs*

 

[Vixen]

uthrow is only good vs fast fallers. dthrow combos for far longer vs the majority of the cast than uthrow does.

 

[Phaiyte]

Pikachu is pretty **** in this game. Way better than he was in Melee. And with that said I don't get what people are complaining about. You can wavedash really fast out of QAC straight into a DSmash, which is even more super effective against players that love to crouch cancel. His UAir sets up ridiculously good tech chases and kills. He's one of the most mobile characters in the game. His USmash is stronger than Fox's until the opponent is like 90% or so, and Thunder followups make that even cooler. Pikachu is god tier in the hands of the right players.

 

[leelue]

PM up throw is pretty close to melee down throw. Someone told me that it actually IS melee dthrow but I don't believe them. But yeah PM dthrow is balls. Much rather have a solid combo-ing grab than a *meh* tech chasing throw

PM down throw is good not because you can use it, but because it exists.
If you throw someone by the ledge, they must respect the fact that you can down throw. If you were, say, throwing them offstage, they want to DI out to avoid follow-ups. But if you down threw them, it's a trap because then they are teching to the ledge and dying to your Fsmash..

 

[Deleted member]

Pikachu is god tier in the hands of the right players.

Does anybody have any actual videos of Pikachu doing these incredible things in P:M? I would like to see proof.

 

[Phaiyte]

Would you seriously argue about Pikachu's tools? I fear for your competence in so many ways right now.

 

[Deleted member]

As impressive as your evidence is, I'd still like to see some videos.

 

[Phaiyte]

Play the character yourself or fight me on the internet.

You can't say a character's not good just because you haven't seen videos. That's incredibly ignorant. Pikachu was very good in melee and now he's nothing but better overall. How does that math add up?

 

[leelue]

1) Saying fight me over the internet... does not make your case that much stronger.
2) It is not ignorant to say a character doesn't look good just because they haven't seen the character win. You go a long time without seeing the character win, and no videos bubble up to the surface (and you haven't provided any), it seems logical to continue thinking he might not be good.
3) Unless I am mistaken, his recovery distance with up b is slightly shorter than it was in melee. If so he's not "nothing but" better. In any case, pikachu was merely passable in melee, not very good.

 

[CORY]

1) Saying fight me over the internet... does not make your case that much stronger.
2) It is not ignorant to say a character doesn't look good just because they haven't seen the character win. You go a long time without seeing the character win, and no videos bubble up to the surface (and you haven't provided any), it seems logical to continue thinking he might not be good.
3) Unless I am mistaken, his recovery distance with up b is slightly shorter than it was in melee. If so he's not "nothing but" better. In any case, pikachu was merely passable in melee, not very good.

i'll just quote this. leelue summed it up pretty well.

 

[JTsm]

In terms about Pikachu, he should have a recovery like Pichu's but without that damage to self Bull sh*t.

 

[traffic.]

I would also like to point out that it is a ridiculous statement to say that because certain players are exceptional, that a character is exceptional.

 

[Nemiak temp]

I would also like to point out that it is a ridiculous statement to say that because certain players are exceptional, that a character is exceptional.

Well, also consider that these certain exceptional players are probably this good because they are the few that truly understand their character and use all of their tools to the fullest potential. If some people can do such exceptional things with a character then that means that theoretically everyone can. I guess the exception to this would be if the only reason they were so exceptional was because of some next level of mind-gaming or something but that's pretty rare. Pikachu totally has potential to be at or pretty darn close to the top, especially if the QuickAttack is fixed. (Is it actually broken? It seems so strange to use to me, I was never a fantastic pika player but in melee I could at least use this move consistently wheras now I always end up missing a ledge cling somehow or just completely ****ing up the input in general). Also, it doesn't even matter how exceptional you are, pikachu's upsmash is boss. (Kidding, I realize that even though its stronger than foxes doesn't mean you can rely on it as much as foxes).
I've also never seen any fantastic Pikas in P:M so my opinions are just that and have no basis in "fact" or "evidence."

 

[Deleted member]

Play the character yourself or fight me on the internet.

You can't say a character's not good just because you haven't seen videos. That's incredibly ignorant. Pikachu was very good in melee and now he's nothing but better overall. How does that math add up?

Don't get annoyed at me just because you can't provide any evidence. He's not popular, and there are barely any videos of him out there, let alone videos of him performing incredible feats and winning. You made the claim that he's great, so therefore it is on you to prove that the statement is true.

He wasn't "very good" in Melee. He was just okay, and some of that had to do with the characters below him being awful. Now those other characters aren't completely terrible anymore, and he feels pretty much the same. He's got speed, but that's it. To me, he feels like a wannabe Fox. His moves have poor range, and the only moves that have good range/disjoint are the laggy and unreliable Thunder and F-smash. He has to keep putting himself in harm's way because of the fact that he has to get so close to do anything to his opponent, and when he inevitably gets swatted away, he gets hit hard because he's so light. He's not great at approaching. His grab range isn't good. His projectile has a decent amount of lag. Every time I try to play him, it feels like a huge struggle to accomplish anything.

But because I'm a rational person, I'm willing to put all of those opinions aside and admit that I simply suck with the character if somebody showed me actual evidence proving me otherwise. I haven't gotten any of that yet, so forgive me if I still feel the same way about Pikachu as I always have.

 

[Phaiyte]

(character fillers)


axe

 

[leelue]

does axe win tournaments or just place well?

also, the thing about being the only main of your character is that nobody knows how to deal with you.

 

[PhantasyStar]

Ness still isn't very good. How about an entire redo of the character and give him earthbound moves to match his character

 

[DMG]

Pikachu is something. He's some word in the English Language that I can't properly articulate at this moment.

May God forcibly remove the Pika players from His Good, Green Earth and place them somewhere in the universe where I can forget about the character entirely.

I don't care much about Pika but QAC will always sound overrated until someone consistently does some guaranteed NON cheesy setup mcgrabtrickgimmick that works and doesn't depend on poor reaction/bad response from the opponent from working.

 

[Paradoxium]

As impressive as your evidence is, I'd still like to see some videos.

There is this one guy on YouTube called ShufflesTheMushroom who was playing as pikachu against the ai but I think he was goofing around. Who knows, he might be pretty good.

 

[leelue]

Human vs Human matches are necessary to determine real skill, after a point. and that point is well before we can call someone proficient.

 

[Nausicaa]

That would be a funny Luigi fireball thing.

pikachus recovery is broken (as in it has lots of bugs)

Very much this. It's inconsistent too, which makes the oddities of it even worse.

His grab range isn't good.

You haven't seen his 2.6 grabs have you? hehe
Most everyone sucks with the character. He's for sure one of the most difficult to play optimally in the game. Tedious stuff in terms of human decision making, add in that it has to do with quirky tools at a high speed, and it's wacky and reasonable to be a very niche thing for some people, and not work for anyone else. On the surface at least.

he might not be good.

Key word = might.
Everything is 'maybe' in the end.



I still feel Dedede might be the 'least good' in the game. He's just so linear, it's like an individual with a 'niche mind-set' was responsible for almost his entire design, and built it purely to be 1 thing that they enjoy/can work with comfortably, without any room outside their comfort zone to go further.
This is for sure the trickiest thing to design as a character though. Making a niche and linear character both functional and interesting is trickier than making a character on the extremities of weight/speed/whatever not be overly functional in all areas so they actually have a niche at all. Whoever is designing Dedede is doing great, but he still needs some work. Either that, or he's just going to be that extremity, linearishness, and still functional for the most part.

MK is hot.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Did the infamous fair-->fair-->fair combo with DDD the other night for a sexy kill. DDD without a doubt is the character with the most moves that are super satisfying to land. His fair, f-smash, and dash attack are all so fantastically orgasmic to pull off. Other moves that deserve that spot are Charizard's up-b, Ganon's dair, Rob's dair, Lucario's super side-b for a spike kill, Lucas's new bair for a kill, amd Wolf's side-b.

In terms of balance, my friend who I am currently training in PM has decided his least favorite match-up is DDD. He is relatively new to smash, but I still found what he said interesting. He said DDD's super range, hefty power, multiple jumps with a long up-b, and the fact that he can crouch cancel straight into a d-smash for a long time has him so frustrated with the match-up. I'm sure as he gets better he'll find ways around it, but the reason why I found his words interesting is maybe DDD was designed to be abused. Like perhaps you aren't supposed to play him in a normal way. You have to abuse the hell out of his range, his jumps, his crouch-cancelling, his d-smash, his power, etc. Maybe that's how one becomes a DDD master.

 

[Nausicaa]

DDD without a doubt is the character with the most moves that are super satisfying to land.

Probably because he's the character with the fewest moves you'll ever hit with more than once a match.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The only thing I can say about Pikachu is that Quick Attack controls super awkwardly. I had tried him in PM several times and thought, "man this recovery is really awkward, I must just be use to Pichu's angles." But no, that really isn't the case. I had literally never touched the character in Melee until last Saturday and was having no trouble zipping on and off the ledge with no practice before hand.

So, I see it as being two possibilities. 1: I'm somehow magically gifted with Pikachu skills in Melee (Absurdly unlikely), or 2: The move controls very differently to the point of inconsistency in Brawl and PM.

I'd have to do the wavebird test at some point to confirm, but something definitely doesn't seem right with how the move is currently.

 

[Nausicaa]

There's yet to be something right with the move in any Project: M incarnation.
It's probably the most awkward thing in the game.
...actually yeah I can't think of anything else more messed up.
I got inside a few different stages with Up-B in 2.5, just by trying to snap to ledges. That's pretty bugged and I'm not sure if 2.6 if any different...
Edit: Well ok, ASC with Lucario after literally everything in some combo strings is pretty awkward. In a good way though. Screw Pika.

 

[Juushichi]

The Pika main I play with, Shenanigans is having the same problem. It's more that the move is bugged, I think. Like Dakpo said before, I think a lot of things are bugged with Pika but no one plays him enough/no one cares enough to bring it up in public.

 

[dettadeus]

Yeah the quick attack thing is the only thing keeping me from using Pika in PM, otherwise I'd use him way more often.

Also I recall someone mentioning that the fastest way to act with a grounded move out of QAC is to use Bair without jumping, so that it autocancels and you have 4 frames of landing lag. Although this might've been changed in 2.6, haven't gotten to play it except at EVO.

 

[AXE 09]

^Whoa that sounds crazy, I'm gonna have to try that out!

Also, I think Pikachu is better than he was in Melee, but there's several characters that are definitely better than him overall.

However, that doesn't mean he's bad, or doesn't have what it takes to win. He's a very solid character

 

[ItalianStallion]

^Whoa that sounds crazy, I'm gonna have to try that out!

Also, I think Pikachu is better than he was in Melee, but there's several characters that are definitely better than him overall.

However, that doesn't mean he's bad, or doesn't have what it takes to win. He's a very solid character

I have two questions:
1. Is there something that you feel Pikachu could use in PM or something in his gameplay that's missing? Essentially,if you were to buff/tweak PM Pikachu, how would you do it?
2. Do you know if it's possible in PM to do the glitch thing that's in the clip in your sig? Have you tested it?

 

[AXE 09]

1) Pikachu's dash attack is absolutely horrendous. Fix that plz lol
2) I've never tried it actually. Someone should test that

 

[Juushichi]

1) Pikachu's dash attack is absolutely horrendous. Fix that plz lol
2) I've never tried it actually. Someone should test that

I think there's a small write up in the Pikachu boards about QAC things from one of my training partners, Shenanigans. One of the biggest things I remember is that I think it's fair that auto-cancels out of QAC and can lead into combos. There's also some QAC platform tricks that are pretty interesting.

 

[210stuna]

You guys don't know how to QAC that's why. It was never in Melee, so I don't blame y'all.

It is because of that technique though that makes him better than before.
The changed bair and up air with its given direction seems like a buff, but the fact remains that he is still a lightweight and the only moves that really do him justice are the electrical ones. Everything else is too weak with little KB.

The reason why I never went deep into exploring him other than being great with QAC is because you have to do so much with the little guy, but you don't get much in return. Let me use QAC out the ass, look cool, but for what? Only one air attack and then repeat, maybe get one smash attack in? Then you get knocked out very early so you have to keep using side B and use exact angles to really grab the edge or miss and die/get smashed attacked in the face. Oh you made it back very easily? Get hit one more time and then you have to repeat your recovery until you die very early. It's like you have to gain momentum quickly and clobber the opponent or you'll spend half the battle recovering.

There's just better candidates out there that last longer and don't require as much precision or timing that are better off than using the old mouse.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It's like [pikachu has] to gain momentum quickly and clobber the opponent or you'll spend half the battle recovering.

This is exactly how it felt against Falcon playing Melee last weekend, it being my first time using the character in the game at all. I'd like to have more of an impression of the character but it really feels like beginner johns ("it" referring to "having to recover for five minutes"). I recall you play Pikachu in at least one of the games, but I have no way of knowing to what extent you have explored him in Melee or PM. At a glance he definitely seems to get tossed around a lot, but he can convert hits into gimps or kills pretty easily under the admittedly bold assumption that he isn't just losing trades all game.

He basically feels like a character with distinct strengths and weaknesses in a game full of characters with general strengths and very few discernible weaknesses.

 

[Deleted member]

1) Pikachu's dash attack is absolutely horrendous. Fix that plz lol

THANK YOU. I was beginning to think that this only annoyed me. Pikachu is not good enough to have a crappy move like Fox and his F-air or Sheik and her chain. There is absolutely no reason for that move to be as bad as it is, especially this far into PM's development. Please, for the love of God, give that move an electric effect and have it launch them into the air for combos. The only explanation I can think of for why his hasn't been done already is that nobody really gives a damn about Pikachu.

Besides that, I agree with everything you guys are describing. Pikachu seems like a character you have to put a lot of work into, but why would should I when there are other characters out there who either don't require as much work or who do require work but have a bigger payoff.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Does anybody have any actual videos of Pikachu doing these incredible things in P:M? I would like to see proof.

thats ****ing silly for 3 million different reasons
just shoot yourself

 

[Juushichi]

Besides that, I agree with everything you guys are describing. Pikachu seems like a character you have to put a lot of work into, but why would should I when there are other characters out there who either don't require as much work or who do require work but have a bigger payoff.

mid tier characters are always like that. a generally more balanced game i think gives more of a reason to pick top/high tier because you don't have to work as hard

why should a player have to learn Pika or GnW and have to learn the nuances for like 18+ MUs when you could play sheik or peach and have your really strong general tools and only have to learn 10.

it does give character loyalists more of a reason to play their characters, though.

 

[Viceversa96]

^Whoa that sounds crazy, I'm gonna have to try that out!

Also, I think Pikachu is better than he was in Melee, but there's several characters that are definitely better than him overall.

However, that doesn't mean he's bad, or doesn't have what it takes to win. He's a very solid character

I agree with this. The point of P:M is not to 100% balance characters. That's impossible. The point of P:M is to make characters more viable in P:M than they were in previous Smash games.

 

[Deleted member]

thats ****ing silly for 3 million different reasons
just shoot yourself

Children your age shouldn't join forums.