Slight balance worries for 2.6

[DMG]

Seriously PMBR, if people come here and they aren't aware of the existence of BR streams, something may be a bit off.

Also, on the subject of G&W, if you tweak too much with his weight, rolls, etc. you risk infringing on the core engagements and fantasy brought out by the character. The reason people like G&W is that he's a bit quirky. And I refuse to believe the BR is incapable of making him viable even if he has a flawed kit. Shifting some power into really polarizing areas may not be something we want to see, but if we want to preserve the essence and appeal of G&W, we may be forced to shove some excessive power into certain elements.

Oh, and look who came out just to say hi!

You can totally keep G^W feeling unique and stay in character by fixing stuff like ****ty rolls/tech rolls.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Naw man Ganondorf needs a ****ty up tilt it makes him unique and is why we love him.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

But does it make Wario so much better than the rest of the cast? If it doesn't imbalance the character, then I don't see the problem.

The problem is that its a massively disjointed hitbox for no reason, especially for its high kill power. The move doesn't have to rocket him to high tier for it to be looked at, moves should not have a visually confusing hitbox, no matter how good or bad it is. Its kinda like snake's old brawl utilt. That move had a similar issue of having a heavily disjointed hitbox, plus the animation was awful lol. Did that move imbalance him? Did changing it imbalance him?....No not really, it just made the move make sense visually, instead of falsely rewarding the player with invisible hitboxes, and as far as the damage of the move, 40% off a move that hits on frame 9 is insane. Especially when you consider all of wario's straight up kill options (not talking about moves that gimp or meteor), which include : ftilt, fsmash, bair, uair, and final hit of side b, all of which kill fairly early. Idk, I think these reasons alone warrant at least a reason to experiment with toning down certain aspects of it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Waft hitbox is WAYYY smaller than the visuals indicate, you're right. I thought for sure the fart itself was a hit.

 

[DMG]

Are we sure that Waft frame data is exactly the same as Brawl?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

When I looked at it with brawl box the hit boxes seemed to be the same size. Plus I've been able to hit people by just standing on the ledge, and farting on them through the stage. So it should be unchanged from brawl.

 

[trash?]

Isn't every one of Game and Watch's even numbers a gimp attack?

Pretty much, yeah. It'll likely enforce a weird metagame change, where odd numbers happen on-stage, and even numbers happen when edgeguarding. It's not make-or-break amazing, but it'll still be useful.

 

[Mithost]

I do want to see more changes to G&W, especially with his options on roll and techs. I understand the "hurr durr LCD games were slow so he is too" mentality, but I trust the PMBR's creativity when making it work. G&W isn't good enough of a character in melee to use the 'cuz melee' excuse for not changing him.

Plus I totally agree in changing my wording from "buff" to "add-on" regarding the hammer change. It won't happen often enough to change his spot in the (barely existent) tier list, but when it comes up, hype will be had.

 

[Mormon Mammoth]

This reminds me a lot of peach's turnips. Peach can spam down b at times and hope for a stitch face turnip. G&w can now do something similar. This is definitely better for g&w players.

 

[Problem2]

Ganondorf's ****ty up-tilt will be missed in teams. It was so much fun watching Denti reset his opponent's knockback with that wind box to extend his teammate's combos.

 

[Denti]

Ganondorf's ****ty up-tilt will be missed in teams. It was so much fun watching Denti reset his opponent's knockback with that wind box to extend his teammate's combos.

YES!!!! ^^^^^

Pit up throw while I stand on the platform above to stopping all momentum then re grab. was amazing.

 

[SpiderMad]

There's no video of that is therE? I don't get exactly what happened

 

[Denti]

Doesnt matter, his old up tilt is gone.

 

[SpiderMad]

Doesnt matter, his old up tilt is gone.

Come on bro

 

[DMG]

Ganon's new Utilt is beast mode, and has a hitbox BEHIND HIM that pops them up and tries to get them into the actual stomp. Like holy christ balls

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I apologize, I should have explained myself better. You don't have to understand smash frame data that well to get my point though. Just ignore the first two versions, because they're garbage, and take a look at half charged and full charged fart. These moves are heavily disjointed, and do insane knockback and damage for a move that has so little commitment. Its like jiggly's rest...only if the hitbox was twice the size of her and extended quite a bit below her. To put in perspective, I can literally stand on the ledge, and fart on someone through the stage, for free...its really unsettling to me. Oh forgot to mention that fully charged fart does 40%...thats a 12% difference to rest, which is usually held as one, if not "the", strongest usable move in the game. I have more on the subject, but I'm already running pretty late for a smash fest.

You have to understand that there's a timeframe on those options. They are literally only available at certain times on the clock, and an observant opponent will recognize this, and be less likely to get caught by setups for the move. To say "it has no commitment" is false, because using it is a commitment in of itself. If you use it, and miss, it's gone.

It's really not as easy a move to land as you're making it sound. Ask any Wario main, you will miss more wafts than you will land. Fact. It's also not nearly as disjointed as you're making it sound, either. The fart cloud is much larger than the actual hitbox. Hitting that amount of space surrounding Wario's body is not even a little bit unreasonable. Plenty of characters have moves with bigger disjoints than that, I'm sure.

 

[DMG]

It's also a move that requires a lot of time ESPECIALLY SINCE THIS IS MELEE-ESQUE PACE. 1-2 poots only a game is extremely realistic, might as well give up on the full ones.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

You have to understand that there's a timeframe on those options. They are literally only available at certain times on the clock, and an observant opponent will recognize this, and be less likely to get caught by setups for the move. To say "it has no commitment" is false, because using it is a commitment in of itself. If you use it, and miss, it's gone.

It's really not as easy a move to land as you're making it sound. Ask any Wario main, you will miss more wafts than you will land. Fact. It's also not nearly as disjointed as you're making it sound, either. The fart cloud is much larger than the actual hitbox. Hitting that amount of space surrounding Wario's body is not even a little bit unreasonable. Plenty of characters have moves with bigger disjoints than that, I'm sure.

I don't quite agree with you joker. First off, while it is true that the there is a time frame of when he can use it, he also doesn't have to dedicate himself at all to charging it, it just happens after a certain amount of time. Also nothing the opponent does can stop it, seeing as how he doesn't lose it on death, and it will always be charged, unless he blows it, on those exact time frames. Its also very safe after using it. I've never been punished for it, unless when I use it for recovery, but thats not where the move gets ridiculous. So in that sense, I would personally say that he has no commitment with that move, but I acknowledge your point and I'm aware of it, I do in fact main wario, so I'll yield a little and say instead that it has some commitment...but not much.

I completely disagree with your opinion of the hitbox however, it is as disjointed as I make it sound. Please take a good second look at the hitbox data on it, because I can't believe that its that huge. Its true that the fart cloud is bigger than the hitbox, but that doesn't matter because the hitbox placement is so off. I mean I know logic sometimes doesn't apply to smash, but when I use fart, I expect to be hitting where the fart is coming from, or at least a general area around that, not an invisible hitbox thats not even touching his body. I also don't expect to be hitting people through stages with it, that just seems a little much for me. He has bar none, the biggest, highest damaging, thats usable, move in the game. Not even warlock punch compares lol, and honestly, I'll be fairly impressed if you find a move that is more disjointed.

This isn't some character attack on wario, he is the character I have the most fun playing as...but when I land this move, I feel so dirty, like I don't deserve it at all. I should feel satisfied when I land this move, just like I do with the rest of his move set, but I don't at all, I feel just as bad as my opponent, who probably feels like they just got cheated out of a stock. I just wish they would at least review it, and come up with some interesting ways to legitimize it. Maybe give an interesting spin to it, I've certainly got a couple ideas, but thats just my $.02 on the matter. Also sorry for how long this post is, it most be difficult to read lol.

 

[DMG]

It is legit as it stands because of the timer system. Maybe further increase how long it takes to get the waft, but I see nothing really wrong with it. It's broken in the sense that there's no real risk to missing with it, but to balance that out you only get one approximately every minute. There's nothing you can really do to the move without (pardon the pun) crapping on it.

 

[Strong Badam]

I really don't see how Wario's Waft warrants a change. It's weaker than rest and he only gets one, maybe two every game, and he has a host of other weaknesses that Jigglypuff doesn't suffer (combo'd pretty well by most of the cast, a much weaker recovery, has to land a lot while spacing in neutral, etc.). Just because it's not particularly punishable doesn't mean it doesn't suck when it misses; he loses 2 minutes of charge time if he misses.
It's also 10 times slower than Rest is, lol.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Half charge is weaker yes, but a fully charged fart does 40%. It most likely has slightly less knockback but the 12% extra damage compensates for it. It isn't just the safeness of the move that bothers me. If thats all it was, I don't think it being safe would be an issue at all because of how its on a timer, but its a combination of that, the massive disjointed hitbox, and the ridiculous damage it can do. Mainly its the hitbox that bothers me. Also it hits on frame 9 so its about 9 times slower than rest lol.
At least full charged hits on 9, half charged hits on 5.

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

The difference between rest and full charged waft is that it is super easy to set up for a waft out of a throw, chomp, or down aerial. rest is significantly harder to set up for on anyone but spacies.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Maybe down or up throw, but yes dair and the bite throw (if you correctly mess up their di) yields a fart, unless you mess up of course. What really sets the moves apart is their execution. Jiggly's rest is a lot faster than waft, its also a lot safer when its first used because of the initial frames of invincibility, but the hitbox is a lot smaller and there is a ridiculous amount of lag afterwards, so she has to be very careful and precise with its usage. She also has the move at her disposal the entirety of the match, so she feels no pressure at all from the timer or having a set limit of uses, which is as many as she wants.

Wario's waft however isn't extremely fast, frame 5 or 9 depending on what you want to hit with. Still though, a move hitting on frame 5 or 9 isn't something to scoff at either, but it also has nothing protecting him, so if he times incorrectly or tries to use it like jiggly, then he'll probably get punished, at least on the start up. Now wario's waft hitbox is, as I've said numerous times, massive in all forms of the move, (even the useless barely charged ones, but lol they don't matter because they're useless) so his spacing with the move is honestly kinda sloppy. I mean why would he care about being precise, with the move being so big, and the fact its so safe after its usage, he really shouldn't care even if he misses. Unlike jiggly, wario has no shortage of kill moves, the worst thing he suffers from is the lack of a situational recovery move, which is kinda bad, but his recovery doesn't honestly need to be good.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Yes that is the difference. That's the one.

Well, that and

Rest is reusable without having to wait for 2 minutes

Rest is substantially faster

Rest can be set up as early as three seconds into a game

Rest is fully invincible on start up

Even comparing the moves in a vaccuum, Rest has plenty over waft. The moves are hardly comparable in the first place.

This is without taken into account that Wario has to choose between a kill move and a recovery move while Jigglypuff gets to have both for free without consequence.

 

[Strong Badam]

waft does less knockback regardless of opponents starting % than rest, btw. it does 40% dmg but has a lot less KBG.

 

[The_NZA]

You also have to factor in that most characters don't have a useless b move in this game, and Wario sort of gives up a potential b move by having waft (which is a disadvantage).

 

[Mr.Pickle]

How much exactly is the difference in KBG between the moves?

And kink...lol I don't understand the point of your post, you just listed everything I listed for jiggly and then didn't list anything from wario to compare it too.

Also sorry if I'm going off topic in this thread, if need be I can move this conversation somewhere else.

 

[The_NZA]

How much exactly is the difference in KBG between the moves?

And kink...lol I don't understand the point of your post, you just listed everything I listed for jiggly and then didn't list anything from wario to compare it too.

Also sorry if I'm going off topic in this thread, if need be I can move this conversation somewhere else.

dude please change the color of your text. It is really hard to read on black.

 

[Strong Badam]

How much exactly is the difference in KBG between the moves?

Waft has 55, Rest has 120. DMG and KBG do a kind of multiplication with each other, though Rest scales more quickly with % than Waft, so even though Wario's does 12 more damage there is never a point where Waft deals more KB.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Really? Lol I find this color much easier on the eyes than some of the other ones I've seen...idk what to tell you mang.

@ Strong Bad - Hmmm yeah I knew that KBG was affected by damage, but I didn't know the difference in KBG was that great, nor do I know how much the extra damage compensates the KBG. It still surprises me, thats a 65 increase to KBG.

 

[leelue]

You also have to factor in that most characters don't have a useless b move in this game, and Wario sort of gives up a potential b move by having waft (which is a disadvantage).

Do you count marginally useful recovery aids like pikachu's side b or mario's down b as useful?

 

[The_NZA]

Do you count marginally useful recovery aids like pikachu's side b or mario's down b as useful?

Yes. Marginally is still better than none.

Sheik on the other hand...has dem whips. That would be more like none.

 

[Dakpo]

GnW needs more buffs. Just too slow to do anything. Terrible character

 

[Kink-Link5]

Game and Watch needs to shoot lasers that turn into knees that run off stage and shine people then grab the edge.

 

[Nemiak temp]

LOL Game and Watch is ****ing great. He has a tough time against space animals and the Links. Most other matchups don't seem too terrible. (DK is difficult but winnable, Ganon is winnable if you spam all the bacon in the world, I've never had trouble with falcon, Mario is probably pretty close to even, blah blah blah). Learn to use the character before ******** about him being terrible. AND STOP TRYING TO SET SOMETHING UP FOR JUDGEMENT. In almost every situation a f-air or n-air would work and be much less punishable. On the topic of balance worries though, did they actually give the space animals slight nerfs? I read in one of the threads that lasers do less damage depending on distance and shine is no longer invincible on frame one. Is this true?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Telling Dakpo to learn to use Game and Watch

Olol

 

[Nemiak temp]

Hopefully he was trolling. My post is still valid I think

 

[Kink-Link5]

Trolling implies deceit or malicious intent.

Dakpo is one of the best Game and Watch players and was joking. Very different from trolling.

 

[Nemiak temp]

He's good but one of those *random hammers everywhere* GW players. I apologize for calling him out in my first post, didn't realise it was even him. It was more of a "everyone in general give him a chance before whining he sucks" kind of post. Anyone know about the spacie nerfs though?

 

[Kink-Link5]

There is a distinct possibility that shine is no longer invincible, but that is not necessarily true.

If RA-Bit[55] or whatever is the "set intangible" trigger, then it still grants it.