Slight balance worries for 2.6

[ItalianStallion]

They might have actually buffed G&W too much. Bacon is amazing now!

 

[Vixen]

pit got hardcore nerfed.

 

[ItalianStallion]

pit got hardcore nerfed.

Really? I don't play him, so I didn't notice any changes. What hits did he take?

 

[Vixen]

usmash was hardcore nerfed to practically unusable status. arrow cooldown was increased, dthrow was nerfed.

this translates to:

pit cannot fight crouch cancelling at all until above 50%, pit has no reliable grounded anti-air vs fox, falco, falcon, wolf, etc. pit's punishment game vs midweights and floaties was nerfed significantly.

pit is melee roy with mediocre projectile, and three midair jumps.

 

[ItalianStallion]

usmash was hardcore nerfed to practically unusable status. arrow cooldown was increased, dthrow was nerfed.

this translates to:

pit cannot fight crouch cancelling at all until above 50%, pit has no reliable grounded anti-air vs fox, falco, falcon, wolf, etc. pit's punishment game vs midweights and floaties was nerfed significantly.

pit is melee roy with mediocre projectile, and three midair jumps.

Again, I'm no Pit player, but I find your conclusion to be a little extreme. I just played last night with a Pit player and Up Smash still seems really potent. It's super quick with a decent amount of power. Arrows are still good. As a Charizard main, Pit's arrows terrify me. If he hits me out of my glide(Which shouldn't be hard considering he can a control his arrows), I am only left with my Up-B as of the 2.6 update. In general, Pit is one of my more difficult characters to play against.

And I'm not sure I understand the anti-air thing. I think some of Pit's best moves are Up-Smash, Up-Air, and Up-B. Up-Smash, unless I just missed how nerfed it got, still seems like a monster of a move for grounded anti-air.

 

[Vixen]

Dear, vs most characters, if he hits them with usmash, they can punish him on reaction, because until 50-60%, it does not have enough knockback. It's comparable to a weaker falco usmash. it has amazing start up speed, and fairly good range, but it has extremely awful KB, and does not scale very well. Fox, Falco, Falcon, Marth, Wolf, etc all can actually jump in to the usmash, land before it ends, and grab or shine pit during the wind down of the animation.

His arrows on stage are awful. They have a lot of wind up, he loses mobility when moving, he moves in a predictable arc if arrow is shot airborn. he also has a lot of cool down as he puts the arrow away. advancing with shield and WD oos completely nullifies arrows in neutral. Arrows utility is in edgeguarding, extending combos, and tech chasing, which the nerf does absolutely nothing to.

 

[SpiderMad]

SH Arrow, WD off ledge, return back with an aerial. So many techniques, so little time: Gone, all gone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QHcWCsLuAgc&t=132

One step closer to all characters being a Zelda

blah

One of your best textures, The Lucas with Bob Marley shirt: the link went bad on the vault. Can you give me the texture?

 

[JTsm]

*Looks at title*

*Thinks about Fox and Falco*

-dip-

 

[ItalianStallion]

Dear

Are we dating?

As for the Up-Smash thing, I guess I'll have to test that out.

And if the nerf doesn't do anything to edge-guarding, extending combos, and tech chasing, then it seems like they weren't hit hard at all. I don't think Pit really needs arrows to be like Falco's laser to perform well in neutral, considering his fast aerials, glide, and multiple jumps.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

SH Arrow, WD off ledge, return back with an aerial. So many techniques, so little time: Gone, all gone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QHcWCsLuAgc&t=132

Is that...a technique? It sounds more like it was a projectile with little commitment to me. :x

 

[SpiderMad]

Is that...a technique? It sounds more like it was a projectile with little commitment to me. :x

People didn't even make use it. It's basically Wolf's/Diddy's Peanut gun to WL/AGT cancel Banana http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=87G-nPP4Njo&t=42 It created options, movement, speed, ya know: FUN. Zelda's 2.5 side-b is boring filth. Balance some other aspect that doesn't slow Pit down, that's why I'm more or less fine with his other Up-smash power nerfs.

Diddy only won 1 tournament as far as I saw: and it was on HDTVs http://smashboards.com/threads/exp-gaming-wavedash-wednesday-3-27-13.335279/ . His Glide toss distance back to Brawl is dumb and out-prioritizes his other options (as well as bananas tripping through shields again). His DA also being reverted back to Brawl is totally wonk, I don't care if it's somehow better, It's all just backwards.

Zelda and Ivy masterrace P:M 2K14 #NoFun #NoHope
- I demand my Pesos -

 

[ItalianStallion]

One of your best textures, The Lucas with Bob Marley shirt: the link went bad on the vault. Can you give me the texture?

I get this often, I'm not that ItalianStallion. I didn't even know anyone in the smash community went by that name when I picked it out. Then people started asking me about my stage textures or something like that and I was all .

I'm just a random smash player in Central California (Practically no scene here).

 

[Vixen]

Are we dating?

As for the Up-Smash thing, I guess I'll have to test that out.

And if the nerf doesn't do anything to edge-guarding, extending combos, and tech chasing, then it seems like they weren't hit hard at all. I don't think Pit really needs arrows to be like Falco's laser to perform well in neutral, considering his fast aerials, glide, and multiple jumps.

I call everyone dear, doll, darling, etc. Ask the PM chat LOL.

His arrow wasn't hit hard at all. The biggest nerfs were to his usmash, and to his dthrow. d throw can be worked around, but the usmash was an absolutely necessary tool to fight crouch cancelling, and characters like falco, fox, wolf, falcon, ganon, charizard, etc who have aerial superiority over him, or a strong ground/CC game.

 

[SpiderMad]

His arrow wasn't hit hard at all.

That's what everyone is saying, I might be underestimating ya'll here but I don't think the PMBR even knew he could and now couldn't WL (perform actions before reaching the ground) out of it anymore let alone any of the techniques from that. Someone link me to a Pit doing SH arrow WL/AGT or even SH arrow to DJ

 

[TheReflexWonder]

His arrow wasn't hit hard at all. The biggest nerfs were to his usmash, and to his dthrow. d throw can be worked around, but the usmash was an absolutely necessary tool to fight crouch cancelling, and characters like falco, fox, wolf, falcon, ganon, charizard, etc who have aerial superiority over him, or a strong ground/CC game.

It sounds to me that the problem is with crouch canceling, rather than Pit's design. If such a simple thing changes matchups that much, it sounds rather degenerative.

 

[ItalianStallion]

I call everyone dear, doll, darling, etc. Ask the PM chat LOL.

Oh. Haha! OK. I was just taken aback for a second.

 

[Vixen]

It sounds to me that the problem is with crouch canceling, rather than Pit's design. If such a simple thing changes matchups that much, it sounds rather degenerative.

It's a bit of both, as the kb scaling being nerfed also makes his peach/sheik/marth/puff/wario/charizard match up a lot harder losing his main ko option.

 

[Juushichi]

(random) Giant bacon is dumb and people who like it should feel bad.

If you want to give it to him, make it a just frame so you can actually decide if you want a giant anti air, to do damage or just use normal bacon in the way that you actually intended to use it.

 

[Emg3]

why was wario's side b recovery changed? was it too good in 2.5?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario didn't really have a Forward-B recovery in 2.5. If the extra distance was able to let you live when Up-B alone wouldn't, you were easy pickings for an edgeguard.

Because you can end Forward-B early with Back, it's arguably better for recovery now than it was.

Either way, Wario's always had one of the worst recoveries.

 

[Crescent Monkey]

I just wanted to take a second to say that I hate crouch cancelling with a passion.

 

[leelue]

usmash was hardcore nerfed to practically unusable status. arrow cooldown was increased, dthrow was nerfed.

this translates to:

pit cannot fight crouch cancelling at all until above 50%, pit has no reliable grounded anti-air vs fox, falco, falcon, wolf, etc. pit's punishment game vs midweights and floaties was nerfed significantly.

pit is melee roy with mediocre projectile, and three midair jumps.

I could've sworn pit still had a nair

 

[Nemiak temp]

As a game and watch main I gotta say that the giant bacon was an unnecessary buff. Of all things G&W his bacon didn't need anything haha. Though every time I get someone caught in bacon and then a giant one comes out and sends them flying I have to pause the game to regain composure. It's the funniest damn thing in the world.

 

[JTsm]

Despite all the cool stuff the PMBR is doing, major balance issues are really annoying.

Like, I know you guys want to emulate melee, but if you're going to have broken ass sheik/spacies/peach/marth, you might as well make everyone else broken to make everything a leveled playing field.

Also, crouch cancelling is the dumbest **** ever.

 

[Appledees]

Just make everyone Smash 64 broken

there game is perfectly balanced and no one will complain

 

[Juushichi]

Samus and Ness still are bad in that game, though.

 

[Dakpo]

Game and Watch needs to shoot lasers that turn into knees that run off stage and shine people then grab the edge.

This is the best thing I have ever read on this site. MUST HAVE

 

[Dakpo]

Samus and Ness still are bad in that game, though.

Also ness is BRRRRRRRRRRRROKKKKKEN.

 

[Vixen]

I could've sworn pit still had a nair

nair is kind of awful. it has no range, and any moderately strong move outright goes through it and hits pit, or trades at worst. either is unfavorable for pit. it's an okay mixup, and a decent edgeguarding tool.

sonic, and sometimes captain falcon's nairs are the only characters nair really does anything to as an anti air.

Also nair doesn't kill floaties.

 

[leelue]

It seems like on Dthrow + jab1, it's really easy to tech out for like every character in comparison to other characters. Is there some way you can at least guarantee the forced getup?

guaranteeing forced getup means free upsmashes. I don't think this is remotely fair.

I don't foresee the dots having any type of significant impact on G&W at all. The chances of getting each number are the same, and even when you do have an idea of what the next number could be, you still only have a 33% chance of getting what you want. Only in very specific circumstances would this come into play, and you'd still have to get lucky.

50% for even numbers. Narrowing down to 6/8 or 2/6 or 2/8 is pretty good.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Just make everyone Smash 64 broken


there game is perfectly balanced and no one will complain

Someone did that already. It's called Brawl Minus. And even then, it is far from being balanced.

 

[Vixen]

gnw not having melee dthrow always makes me mad. ****** need to respect the melee dthrow. guaranteed follow ups vs the entire cast.

 

[ItalianStallion]

gnw not having melee dthrow always makes me mad. *****s need to respect the melee dthrow. guaranteed follow ups vs the entire cast.

I think that now that he has buffed bacon, it's not needed anymore. However, I think a cool idea would be if he could have some sort of input mid-throw to choose between PM down throw and Melee down throw.

 

[Nemiak temp]

PM up throw is pretty close to melee down throw. Someone told me that it actually IS melee dthrow but I don't believe them. But yeah PM dthrow is balls. Much rather have a solid combo-ing grab than a *meh* tech chasing throw

 

[ItalianStallion]

PM up throw is pretty close to melee down throw. Someone told me that it actually IS melee dthrow but I don't believe them. But yeah PM dthrow is balls. Much rather have a solid combo-ing grab than a *meh* tech chasing throw

The reason why his tech chase throw is powerful is because people normally don't see it coming (All G&W's throw look the same). Throw one in every once in a while, and normally you will have an opponent who didn't tech on the ground in front of you for you to punish.

The reason why it isn't is because if someone does tech, or rolls away before you can respond, G&W probably can't catch up.

And I may be completely wrong, but I am with you in that I don't think PM up-throw is Melee down throw. PM up-throw seems like Melee up-throw to me.

 

[Vixen]

Melee dthrow is guaranteed chaim grab on most of the cast, and dair follow up at mid to high percent. Its absolutely amazing.

Sent from my SPH-L300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Nemiak temp]

The reason why his tech chase throw is powerful is because people normally don't see it coming (All G&W's throw look the same). Throw one in every once in a while, and normally you will have an opponent who didn't tech on the ground in front of you for you to punish.

The reason why it isn't is because if someone does tech, or rolls away before you can respond, G&W probably can't catch up.

And I may be completely wrong, but I am with you in that I don't think PM up-throw is Melee down throw. PM up-throw seems like Melee up-throw to me.

At first I thought it was awesome because everyone I played in tournament didn't see it coming and I almost always got to punish with a sweet hammer or even upsmash sometimes but after they learn to NOT tech in place or to roll way the d-throw becomes useless against most of the cast. (The ones with slower rolls G&W can catch up to and forward/dowtilt em but otherwise it isn't too rewarding to Dthrow). Is there a PMBR member who can confirm what his up throw is? Is it melee up throw? I've been told its "exactly like melee down throw" but that's got to be bull. On a side note bacon is awesome.

 

[Dakpo]

gnw not having melee dthrow always makes me mad. *****s need to respect the melee dthrow. guaranteed follow ups vs the entire cast.

uhhh Up throw is 100Xs better than melee Down Throw

 

[SpiderMad]

http://youtu.be/JVOU9GgLqqU?t=6m18s
[7/24/2013 8:06:53 PM] Kyle Barnick: Look at the Fox combo
[7/24/2013 8:07:34 PM] Kyle Barnick: He couldn't tech because he inputted it a tech for the landing of upthrow
[7/24/2013 8:08:29 PM] GMaster171: GnW's u-throw/d-throw is 50/50
[7/24/2013 8:08:41 PM] GMaster171: if they try to tech d-throw, they cant tech u-throw
[7/24/2013 8:08:50 PM] GMaster171: if they wait, expecting u-throw, they wont tech d-throw

 

[Juushichi]

PM dthrow is fine.

let's stop talking about GnW and talk about characters that actually are in need and are under represented

like Luigi, Pika, DDD.