"Skill" in Brawl

[Tenki]

So...

What is it exactly that people are referring to when they say that someone is skilled in Brawl?

Technical prowess (SDI, DI pshield, some technically difficult moves like CG, DR, etc)?
Matchup knowledge and consequent reaction?
Adaptability?
Character knowledge (for your own character)?
"Reading" ability on opponents?

Discuss.


EDIT (9/4):
THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A MELEE VS BRAWL DEBATE.

Anyone posting any Melee vs Brawl crap after this posting time will be reported.

I'm tired of this thread.

 

[Sosuke]

...
That they have some soft of skill
...
in Brawl.
........

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

Skill is pretty much non-existent, especially compared to melee

 

[MarKO X]

The metagame has no widely useful ATs yet. (imo we should look into foxtrotting and footstooling) Until those ATs are found, then skill will be at the basics, which include spacing, timing, etc.

 

[Sosuke]

Skill is pretty much non-existent, especially compared to melee

Please get off the Brawl boards.
And Melee boards too for that matter.

 

[Yinlong]

skill is just general awesomeness at brawl.

 

[YagamiLight]

So...

What is it exactly that people are referring to when they say that someone is skilled in Brawl?

Technical prowess (SDI, DI pshield, some technically difficult moves like CG, DR, etc)?
Matchup knowledge and consequent reaction?
Adaptability?
Character knowledge (for your own character)?
"Reading" ability on opponents?

Discuss.

This is actually a fantastic question. At the core, it means that you are proficient in all the categories. But what I'd say it actually means is that you can not only assemble all of it together, but you can also have a feel for the characters. You know essentially what to do with them. Take Toon Link, for example. With no weaknesses (Excluding perhaps poor grabs), he appears to be a fantastic character. However, he doesn't completely dominate any category. For Toon Link then, you're going to have to know adaptability at a gigantic level, much more than simply "proficient". Ice Climbers are all about Technical Prowess and Character Knowledge, that defines them. The best extreme character players (Such as characters who have overwhelming skill in one or two places, but not so great skill in the rest [Such as Sonic- Speed and Recovery, and Ike- Power and Range]) have to have fantastic reading ability. They have to think physically ahead and mentally ahead.

In short, the better Brawl players are good at all of those categories, but to see what truly defines excellence in a category (or two), you have to look less at players and more at characters themselves.

I hope that made sense

 

[Lord Ba'al]

So...

What is it exactly that people are referring to when they say that someone is skilled in Brawl?

Technical prowess (SDI, DI pshield, some technically difficult moves like CG, DR, etc)?
Matchup knowledge and consequent reaction?
Adaptability?
Character knowledge (for your own character)?
"Reading" ability on opponents?

Discuss.

I'm going to summarize what YagamiLight has said, and say that skill is measured by a combination of the various things you've listed.

I believe that if you have the right balance of technical prowess, adaptability, etc, then you will become a skilled player in brawl.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Skill, in my brawl? lol jk, but there is definitely a lack of technical skill involved in brawl but theres still a HUGE thought process going on during matches.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

Skill = all encompassing term for your ability/aptitude.


if any of the categories you listed: knowledge, technical ability, reaction speed, yomi etc. are not up to par, then the player will suffer in match.

But, you seem to know that already as your post seemed pretty on point. If anything is confusing you it's the way people throw it around like it means something else nowadays.

 

[Vyse]

Your ability to play Metaknight

Your ability to consistently win

Infinite Dimensional cape

I've come to the conclusion that it either your ability to win Scissors, Paper, Rock.

Or your ability to read your opponent and react accordingly.
Supplemented by matchup/stage knowledge.

 

[Janaye]

YL definately phrased it best, I think.

I believe that your skill comes from your ability to think ahead and to read your opponent. You can be very skilled with a character but if an opponent figures out some sort of timing trick and you are unable to read them and figure that timing out then you could be screwed. Knowledge of your character/s and reading ability far outweighs your ability to do tech moves. I play a Lucario that relies HEAVILY on defense... I dodge and use openings so I don't rely on too many tech moves but I read timing very well. I know my character has air game and I take advantage of that whenever I can, but I also know which characters air attacks are fairly ineffective against so that I can change and switch to ground if someone figures me out. Adaptibility, reading your opponent, and knowlege of your character are what skill are made of.

 

[Tenki]

So, for example, on wifi, the main hindrance to anyone is the technical aspect of the game, which, as horrid as it is, is further crippled online with the slower framerate (usually due to networks?) and/or latency (more towards connection).

Even though this aspect of it skews few characters' abilities (for example, 'frame-perfect' moves like GAW D-throw>D-smash are escapable without teching the ground online, Ness/Lucas PKT/PKT2) and players' actions/reactions (against certain moves/projectiles), the rest of the facets of 'skill' still apply. Can it be said that better/more skilled players still tend to win on wifi, assuming that they've spent a bit of time understanding how the delay works?

I'm somewhat bothered by how some people say that wifi (say, green>blue latency with minor framerate issues) doesn't count for anything or show any skill when I can play against some people who have such amazing reading ability and movement styles/patterns online.

...unless by "doesn't count" they mean for bragging rights and such, since that would only really only be plausible if neither player was handicapped. That is understandable.

 

[HeroMystic]

People say WiFi is bull because of button lag. Button lag messes up your reaction time and generally screws up your flow. It's why many people prefer offline matches. I don't agree with it completely, but button lag has screwed me over more than once.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Oh no, not another one of these threads where the OP is passively implying Melee > Brawl, and everyone knows it so they make an argument out of it.

Please lock. Edit: What's ironic is directly above this thread is one saying not to make threads comparing Melee and Brawl.

 

[Affinity]

Infinite Dimensional cape

I lol'd
10char

 

[~ Gheb ~]

All the points of the OP toghether are skill in brawl imo....just imo

 

[choknater]

winning tournaments.

Spoiler

in b4 'it takes no skill to win tournaments'

 

[Niko_K]

This thread doesn't really accomplish anything yet. Of course this game will never be as technical as melee, but there are universal techs within the game and I'm sure more will be discovered with time. Brawl is just heavily based on the mental aspect as of now.

Just give it time. It's only what, september? The game came out in march. I can dig out posts from melee's release and make the comparisons of the progress of both metagames. I'd say we're heading in the right direction right now.

Already some universal AT's have been found an are being put to good use. Like Glide Tossing and Boost Smashing. There are a TON of character specific AT's as well. Just look at how many Pit has. Peach has quite a few as well, including the turnip free pull by dphanna, OoS Footstool floating dair by me, and d-tilt cancel glide by ninjalink.

Just give it time. That's all that can be said.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

more skill = more wins

There's really nothing more to it. Even if someone doesn't know how to grab, as long as they win the match, they are more skilled.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I don't know what makes a person skilled per se, but Azen is the best at reading an opponent, and M2K is the best at technical aspects (in a sence). Skill is equal to a person's ability to achieve victory and/or do things with a character that no one else can pull off. Since the technical and matchup aspects elude me, I choose to follow the prediction train of thought - which requires a lot more in-game thinking, but doesn't require as much time in practice mode doing tests.

 

[Demenise]

It's hard to explain, but skill is how quickly you can do different things and actually know what you're doing. For example, it looks like you're randomly pushing buttons, but you actually know exactly what you're doing, exactly what you're opponent is planning to do, etc.

 

[bobson]

Brawl skill is the ability to consistently pause the game at such points where you can maneuver the camera up Peach's dress.

 

[stratele]

to be honest, with ANY game (brawl or melee). There is no skill. its just on experience and knowledge of the game.

its just pressing buttons at the end of the day. Not difficult.

 

[Niko_K]

I thought by posting intelligently we could maybe make this thread informative, obviously not.

Stratele, you're an example of a scrub. You don't understand the game at all which is why you are saying it takes no skill and by the end of the day it is JUST button pressing. That is the most vague way of describing competitive gaming ever. Obviously if you break it down, it's pressing buttons. Though the thought process behind which buttons you press and when is what makes you skillful.

Lock this gay thread.

 

[stratele]

I thought by posting intelligently we could maybe make this thread informative, obviously not.

Stratele, you're an example of a scrub. You don't understand the game at all which is why you are saying it takes no skill and by the end of the day it is JUST button pressing. That is the most vague way of describing competitive gaming ever. Obviously if you break it down, it's pressing buttons. Though the thought process behind which buttons you press and when is what makes you skillful.

Lock this gay thread.

yeh i know what im saying is that it doesnt take skill to do. Pressing buttons. The order, when and where you press the buttons obviously effects things. You could call that skill, but its not exactly difficult.

Scrub? I don't understand the game

 

[Iron Thorn]

Skill is knowing what to do and applying it successfully.

 

[stratele]

Brawl skill is the ability to consistently pause the game at such points where you can maneuver the camera up Peach's dress.

I thought I was the only one

 

[Zodiac]

When someone is called skilled it is usually referring to their knowledge of match ups and ability to adapt to a new strategy. In brawl thats about all skilled can be. just varying levels of it.

for the less part of the reference is how well they know a certain character. usually their main. they may rock with fox because they know the character but when they use say wolf, they dont the character as well and thats when they use their adaptability and knowledge of match ups.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Melee took ALOT of skill. brawl has about 1/2 the skill of melee, so brawl has alot of skill........ .just not enough.

 

[Niko_K]

yeh i know what im saying is that it doesnt take skill to do. Pressing buttons. The order, when and where you press the buttons obviously effects things. You could call that skill, but its not exactly difficult.

Scrub? I don't understand the game

Do you actually read your posts while you type? The order of when and where you press buttons is directly connecting to your in game thinking. You have to analyze where your opponent is, know which one of your moves are in range and if they have follow ups, if they are punishable, and if they are safe options as well.

Could you enlighten me on how you actually aren't a scrub and know what you're talking about? You clearly don't understand the game on a higher level, which is the topic at hand. So laugh about it all you want.

 

[stratele]

Do you actually read your posts while you type? The order of when and where you press buttons is directly connecting to your in game thinking. You have to analyze where your opponent is, know which one of your moves are in range and if they have follow ups, if they are punishable, and if they are safe options as well.

Could you enlighten me on how you actually aren't a scrub and know what you're talking about? You clearly don't understand the game on a higher level, which is the topic at hand. So laugh about it all you want.

Dude I dont even know what a scrub is?

You have your opinions, I have mine.

 

[Tenki]

more skill = more wins

There's really nothing more to it. Even if someone doesn't know how to grab, as long as they win the match, they are more skilled.

That's an interesting take on it.

Whoever finds the best way to win and pulls it off has more skill, apparently.

I feel like it sort of breaks down when it comes to trying to play against a horrible matchup, like with any character that can be caught in a standing infinite. If you get caught, the person doesn't necessarily have to be more 'skilled' than you to win the stock.

But on the other hand, to win the fight, you apparently should have enough skill to avoid getting grabbed.

`.`; feels somewhat circular to me, and I don't personally agree with that definition, but I guess it works.

This thread doesn't really accomplish anything yet. Of course this game will never be as technical as melee, but there are universal techs within the game and I'm sure more will be discovered with time. Brawl is just heavily based on the mental aspect as of now.

Just give it time. It's only what, september? The game came out in march. I can dig out posts from melee's release and make the comparisons of the progress of both metagames. I'd say we're heading in the right direction right now.

Already some universal AT's have been found an are being put to good use. Like Glide Tossing and Boost Smashing. There are a TON of character specific AT's as well. Just look at how many Pit has. Peach has quite a few as well, including the turnip free pull by dphanna, OoS Footstool floating dair by me, and d-tilt cancel glide by ninjalink.

Just give it time. That's all that can be said.

I'm not really sure why you're talking about AT's and metagame progress, unless I misquoted/ took this out of context, but I'll go with it lol.

So yeah, I found and, AFAIK, was the first to publish a bunch of information on Sonic's down-B, including cancelling and multi-hit combos with it. I'm currently working on developing Sonic's foxtrot/reversal move combinations (since it's the most versatile of all of them) to the level of being a slightly limited version of Yoshi's Draconic Reverse. Right now, I'm still kinda sloppy with it, but hopefully I'll get it working to a much faster level and with more practical usage some time soon lol.

I really don't feel like the metagame is at a halt, and even if we discovered moves, there still lies the problem of actually throwing it into games.

Oh no, not another one of these threads where the OP is passively implying Melee > Brawl, and everyone knows it so they make an argument out of it.

Please lock. Edit: What's ironic is directly above this thread is one saying not to make threads comparing Melee and Brawl.

Unfortunately, no, that's not even what I intended. However... it seems like GBD suffers some horrible bias and unwanted attraction. I don't frequent GBD enough to have realized how stupid people can be here.

 

[Roihu]

Brawl skill is the ability to consistently pause the game at such points where you can maneuver the camera up Peach's dress.

This man wins the thread.

That's an interesting take on it.

Whoever finds the best way to win and pulls it off has more skill, apparently.

I feel like it sort of breaks down when it comes to trying to play against a horrible matchup, like with any character that can be caught in a standing infinite. If you get caught, the person doesn't necessarily have to be more 'skilled' than you to win the stock.

But on the other hand, to win the fight, you apparently should have enough skill to avoid getting grabbed.

Yes. Having skill also means learning about new techniques to keep up with the rest.
Also, I would say it takes a hell of a lot of skill for some characters to avoid chaingrab. Especially some who don't have projectiles.

 

[PCHU]

When your Paper can utterly pulverize a rock with no trouble, you've got skill.

Basically, you can read moves, you can win with pretty much any character that has a normal to slightly not in favor matchup, and it's moderately easy to do so.
You have then achieved true skill.

 

[Niko_K]

Everyone one of you fail***s ruined this thread.

failfailfailfail

so liek guys, i joinded diz siet 4 months ago and have 2k posts. i no how to brwl

 

[Ayaz18]

Everyone one of you fail***s ruined this thread.

failfailfailfail

so liek guys, i joinded diz siet 4 months ago and have 2k posts. i no how to *BRALW*

fixed, bud

also niko why ya have to be a b*tch and leave St.Kittz???????

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

How is this pathetic thread not locked yet?

 

[Serris]

Everyone one of you fail***s ruined this thread.

failfailfailfail

so liek guys, i joinded diz siet 4 months ago and have 2k posts. i no how to brwl

Ever hear of lurking?

 

[Janaye]

Since the topic is skill in 'Brawl' lets keep the butthurt over melee out of the thread, mmkay?



Back to the OP's question....

It seems that the group agreement is reading the opponent, but I believe that timing is also a key factor. Without timing you couldn't do a vast portion of what's needed to win. Brawl is all about those two things, timing and reading your opponent.