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Sirias discussions: Currently (???)

xXArrowXx

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Rules of thread:
No forcing morals upon others unless its law or society agrees..
No religion since this is logical yet it still came up..
No flaming..

Current debate: Gay, Bi, Straight, Beastility, Zombie, Plants? are you born that way? are you made that way? is it wrong or right or a matter of personal choice?

____________________
Previous debate:
abortion
majority not decided.
some ban out right. some ban depending on the developement stage of the fetus.
some believe that the princple is what counts. others believe its the intention.

euthanasia
some believe its thier own right whether to die or not. some believe that no one in their right mind would. end their suffering with injection or coax them to death with painkillers, seem the norm.

Suicide
same people on same sides as euthinasia..

Afterlife mini debate
The proof is on the supports of afterlife, which cant bring the proof because it denies the existance of afterlife. Thus spirals down into a convo about beliefs and faith. Quite illogical.
________________
happy changed the title...
feelings are logical tho...
 

Nova

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Umm, this should be in FFFF.
Either way, cbf talking about abortion.
I'm for it.
I'm also a sociopath.
Don't care. :p
 

Leisha

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It's really up to the bearer of the baby imo. Sometimes even with protection, pregnancy can happen. There isn't a point of having a child when you know yourself you cannot financially look after it. But I am against people who decide to have a baby, then change their minds in 4 months time and say they want an abortion. That's just the wrong thing to do.

But as I said, an unplanned pregnancy is up to the person.

And yeah I sorta agree with scott here. This thread will only turn into a flame fest like last time.
 

Muzga

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I had a talk with alzi last night about it. He seems to have a better understanding of both sides of the argument now
_______________________________________________________________________
Personally i am pro-choice. I don't like the idea of abortion but i feel it is a necesarry evil.
I feel that until the baby is actually born it is still only a potential human life. Until a baby is guaranteed a birth with no complications in my mind it does not necesarrily constitute a human life. If a couple wants to concieve a child and the woman miscarries is that manslaughter? Is it wrong?

I dont think that abortion is murder. I believe that abortion is a means discarding the possibility of a human life. Is it that different from using contraception? The only difference to me is that things have gone one step further.

Inb4goingtohell

I am talking from the point of view of someone who doesnt have a lot of background knowledge or previous experience discussing the issue so now or in future i apologise if some of my points seem naive or alziesque.
 

xXArrowXx

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contraceptive is different since it seperates the iniatal parts of the equation at best its 99% effective. so yeah one step further.

mischariage is a unavoidable risk. unlike manslaughter.

one problem with it is that its selectivist... its like saying ******** kids dont live as fufilling lives.

i dont think it would be a case of discarding the possbility of life. the life is already there growing.

btw @ liesha.. those parents can adopt.
 

Muzga

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More points to consider/food for thought

Essentially all abortions happen in the first trimester which is a time when a fetus cannot exist independen;ly of the mother. Because of the fact that it is attached to the mother by both the placenta and umbilical cord, its health is dependent on her health, and it cannot be regarded as a separate entity as it cannot exist outside her womb.

Also consider that the concept of personhood is a concept which different from the idea of human life. Human life occurs at conception, but eggs which have been fertilised and are used for in vitro fertilization are also human lives and those not implanted are thrown away routinely. Do you consider this murder, and if not, then how is abortion murder?

When talking about abortion the chances are that what you are talking about is an unwanted pregnancy.
That indicates one of three things.
1)A Girl gets ***** and gets pregnant as a result
2)A Couple has protected sex and it fails resulting in an unwanted pregnancy
3)A Couple is stupid and has unprotected sex when they dont want a child. The woman gets pregnant as a result.

Allow me to ask you something. If abortion is wrong then Is it the right thing to do to force a woman to follow through with an unwanted pregnancy out of nothing but pure guilt?
 

Amaterasu

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-I don't think the dying of sperm or unfertilised eggs is murder at all, and don't differentiate it from the death of any other cell really

-I draw the line when the growing embryo can perceive pain, past that point that the brain is registering the outside stimulus (as I see pain being the most basic stimulus) then I start to get iffy about it all
 

xXArrowXx

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so a newly born baby cant survive on its on til 4 years.. do you kill them?
yes the baby is very parasitic... but is a seperate entity.

unfertilised eggs and straight sperm... who cares what happens unless they mix.
so when they mix outside the body.. if you are talking about stem cell research.. then yeah thats wrong for some of the same reasons as abortion

just to rebut there is also a 4th option but its twisted so wont mention it.
the solution for those reasons is adoption. and proactivly educating people about it. also something to stop **** ionno taser and better integerity of men? and support of family and friends.

there are medical complications that occur when a abortion is present so no not just guilt alone but yes guilt is a strong motivator. also yes if its law... you follow unless you want punishment... XD

I am pretty sure you can be medically doped into a state that has no pain stimulus.. can we kill those people? do they stop becoming a person.. not really.

most people draw the line about deciding whether its a person or a human life that dies... and is the main point. It seems a blanket solution but if you consider the alternates for abortion (adoption etc) the agrument can be settled by banning it. if legalised some people will be unhappy, if illegal everyone wins esspecially the baby.
very iffy in undeveloped countries tho. like those **** cases. btw **** incest is the worst.
 

Amaterasu

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-I use pain as the threshold, because it is (from my point of view) the most base sense, it doesn't apply to people who have a conscience, as there are many types of pain when you grow up

-Both physical and mental, so doping someone to prevent physical pain doesn't give you leave to harm them

-Making it illegal doesn't stop the harm, a mother who strongly does not want a baby but is banned from having it terminated suffers grievous mental harm, and you can view it as a violation of her rights
 

...Ellipsis...

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In essence I agree with Chris. Also abortion is legal if recommended by a doctor in order to maintain the health of the mother be that mental or physical. Mental health includes financial situation etc.
 

xXArrowXx

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if she strongly doesn't want to have the baby.. she shouldn't have unprotected sex.
in the case of ****. she would need support. also in the case of **** the baby is a lready decreased in odds by alot by the man component and the scarring and mental scarring of ****.
financial help can be covered by adoption which is viable because she certainly doesn't want the baby.
most of the mental aquish is from the community and the judgement so i hear. she will definately have it either way.

and just because its illegal doesn't mean people dont do it. **** is illegal but it happens.
abortion can/will lead to mental anquish. and they regret it in later life. they regret abortions way more than keeping the baby.
there are some states in the US that have abortion clinics. so its legal some parts...

i am pretty sure you have to be consience to use a sense. and seeing tho as the baby doesn't even know it exists.. it would feel pain but it would be more like a reflex reaction. just like its reaction to breathe or to even seek nutrients from the mother or even grow from conception. not even quite sure when the baby feels pain...

what about this chris? Doctors and nurses promised to save life. Abortion breaks the Hippocratic Oath

so you have no problem with like a 2 month pregnant lady drinking, if shes gonna have an abotion anyway....

FUN FACT =D The heart starts beating at 17 days... that is before the woman even realize she is pregnant...
 

unreon

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Okay, not many people know exactly what happens in pregnancy. Let’s establish a timeline of embryology. It really develops a clear-cut picture of what is going on inside the mother’s body and hopefully this will ground our discussion on reality rather than vague ideas. Major events:

- Day 0: sperm fertilises ovum; resultant fusion is called a zygote and begins dividing. By the end of the week it implants to the wall of the uterus.
- Week 3: blood circulation links between mother and zygote. Zygote still nothing but a ball of cells being fed nutrients to continue division.
- Week 4: begins formation of brain, and spinal cord.
- Weeks 5-8: Begin formation of major organs. All organs complete by the end of 2 months; only now is it referred to as a foetus (3cm in length).
- Weeks 8-38: foetus grows bigger, with most growth happening in the last trimester. Refinement of some organ systems.

Keep in mind that most women only take a pregnancy test when they notice a change in pattern, or absence of, their usual periods. So for the most part, she’s been presented with the information about 4-8 weeks into pregnancy. The zygote is still developing, and none of its organs nor nervous system are complete.

Let’s be clear about this: pro-choice does not mean we are happy about abortion. It is only giving the parents the right to making an informed decision, and giving her the opportunity to follow up with a solution.

Another clarification: I do not think that taking a life is abhorrent. You seem to have an absolutist mindset that no human has the right to do so. It’s not the action that is importance; it is the intention behind it. You mentioned that people on life support should never have it pulled away from them. I find this incredibly unethical because you seem petrified with taking the life rather than examining the quality of life that the patient has left. Yes, he or she may squeeze another few months or years, but do you think that continuous pain, misery, and disability is a popular way to continue? You are more worried about the individual act of euthanasia, rather than the intentions behind it, or the consequences following. Taking a life can be an act of supreme kindness. Extend this to stem cell research (we can get into that later if you wish), IVF, or abortion as you please.

For some reason, you’ve given us three separate ideas of what being “alive” means. You’ve claimed that it begins at conception; and later that it is any cell undergrowing growth, development, or healing; and later again as the potential to be become another human individual. Let me take each in turn.

[ 1 ] The problem with the pro-life stance is that there is no basis on which to define when something is “alive”. It may be simple to state that it begins at conception, but for what reasons? If you believe that there is a ‘soul’ whispered into the zygote when fertilisation occurs, then I ask on what evidence you believe this is the case. What is the soul, where can I find it, what effects does it have on the person, how does it integrate into our current understanding of the human condition? There is inherently a trap here, for if you are unable to express exactly what you believe, then on what grounds of evidence do you believe it? It seems strange that an objection can be raised so strongly to something that you cannot begin to explain. And furthermore, on what grounds should the procedure be absolutely prohibited to what should be considered a rational and secular legal system?

[ 2 ] If you define life to be a more vague concept of cells dividing, growing, and differentiating, you run into even more complications. For what reasons do you place human lives over any other living organisms? We are made up of the same organic compounds and the language of genetics is shared. If this is your definition of life than swatting a spider should give you a greater moral dilemma than aborting a developing zygote or foetus. And if every human life deserves to be spared because of a great ‘something’ inside all of us, I refer you to the problem outlined in my point above.

[ 3 ] A third definition will be summed up as “the potential to grow a human being”. A cell is a cell is a cell. Each has equal potential given the right conditions. Every time you scratch your nose, you are committing a genocide of potential twin brothers of yours. Does a cell inside a womb hold more value? If yes, then why the objection to embryonic stem cell research, cloning, and IVF – all of which take place outside the womb? Under your own initial assumptions you have dismissed one scenario whilst continuing to protest against others which have similar foundations. The argument from a cell’s potential gets you nowhere.


In conclusion, my points raised:
Taking a life is not morally abhorrent, so long the intentions are good.
Abortion is ugly for all involved, but it should be about minimising harm not prohibiting procedures.
Don’t create laws banning abortion unless you can define what it is you object to.


I personally draw the line where the baby stops parasitic activity. Once it’s out and that umbilical cord is cut, it’s your responsibility to take care of your child.



EDIT:
what about this chris? Doctors and nurses promised to save life. Abortion breaks the Hippocratic Oath
The Hippocratic Oath says no such thing. It is a statement of maintaining ethical conduct, and in no way absolute. In fact, it aims to take into account what is best for the patient, and that also means treating with our utmost ability combined with their wants, needs, and rights as individuals.

In fact, the actual translated line is more akin to "Do No Harm".
 

xXArrowXx

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i see has the harm being abortion... until the princple of double effect is in play

souls is such a religion thing. its more like born with rights.. souls dont come into play in a logical discussion. personally dont know if i believe in such things dont really care, or is not important if i dont.
alive is growing... i think the term you looking for is a Person.. it is a grey area amongst all..

i think the reason was something like, those with reason and capable of choice are deemed more important. i dont want to get into debates about treatment of monkies...
i dont feel the need to explain the importance of offspring.... but it i think it has more importance that killing a spider who is not kin.... i am good for animal rights tho.. humans take priority. in way humans give back more to animals... :S or blah
yes i eat meat.. i dont eat fetus.. canablism is wrong...

growth is the growing of new cells and the death of old cells...
no test tube babies are the same. but it is very much planned, aborting something planned seems abit crazy to me. pretty sure you can use adult stem cells instead...

you seem to think that being disabled is a bad thing.. its all they know. they could live a fufilling life.. you dont know.. i thought society was like innocent til proven guilty... but this solution is a cop out.
 

Atticus

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When parasitic activity stops is drawing the line very late. What difference is there between the baby immediately before and after the moment in time where the umbilical cord is cut that makes it no longer okay to kill it?

Whatever circumstances people feel justify a decision to abort, only a situation where the baby's actual connection to the mother was detrimental to the mother's health would be different. All other reasons would have the same validity after detachment - so why is it suddenly not OK to kill the baby anymore because a cord was cut? There certainly isn't any developmental change of moral significance in being cut from the cord.
 

xXArrowXx

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you can physically give it up for adoption to someone that would care... its not as hard as child birth.. since you have gone that far might as well let it live.. =P
aborting at that stage seems abit weird but yeah see kinda where u coming from..
 

Aussierob123

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Because they drill this **** into us a lot at university, especially in first year. I dunno about Unny but I've heard plenty about it.

I hold the same opinion as unreon / chris, but I don't want to elaborate. There are already plenty of laws and ethical codes established on the topic of abortion, and most of them meet a happy "medium", but some people will just never accept it at all or chose to imagine that there may be a reason that it should be acceptable. Others just don't see it as anything more than science. In my opinion though, I believe there is a time when it becomes "too late" to abort. I'd only consider it in the very earliest stages or if something seriously wrong was happening with the child's development.

I have to admit that I'd be one of those "heartless scientists" when talking about embryonic stem cell research. The research holds so much potential for the human race as a whole, in my opinion it should be allowed and properly funded but that's just me. That's a much more interesting topic than abortion though, consider that one.
 

Sieg

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Maybe we should make stem cell research the next topic then. I actually believe it would be a pretty good discussion.
 

Jei Jei

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So many people who are for abortion...really disappoints me =(

The 'Tom's gf is pregnant' thread is closed so I'll post here:

Tom, I'm completely 100% against abortion but having a child of my own I utterly understand how difficult life can become after he/she is born. It's understandable that you are thinking of your future and are not ready for a baby at this point in your life.

I wasn't ready, I've been broke as hell for a long time and didn't think I could take care of a child but after everything is said and done I will never regret bringing my daughter into this world. I can honestly say that no one here knows true love and happiness until they see their first-born son/daughter and the measures they will go through to make their child happy.

Truth is, you will never be ready for what a child brings into your life, you just have to realize how lucky you are that you have the opportunity to live through it. Once again I'm against abortion but that closely ties into the fact that I'm Catholic and also I love kids lol. I'm not the type to judge other people so whatever you feel you need to do then that's between you and your girl.

I just want to let you know that you will experience the most amazing, unforgettable time of your life if you were to decide to raise your baby. I would also bet that if you choose the alternative, things just won't be the same between you and your partner and chances are both of you will spend the majority of your time wondering what could of been.

I have so much more to say but I don't even think this will be read by Tom so I'll stop here, to the delight of all the Pro-choicers here. I'm not going to tell you what you should or shouldn't do, I can just tell you what is clearly the right thing to do.
 

xXArrowXx

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yeah i know the catholic church will never back down XD voice of the unspoken etc @_@

ive heard of baby surviving when only 22 weeks old...
the weird thing its hard to measure when this unborns become a legit baby.. its different for all of them. definately a ish of weeks.
 

Alzi

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I think we should have a topic change now every 2/3 pages or so to prevent spam or flaming being continued. Not that there is any right now.

Abortion for me is bad and cruel but the only time i see it being understandable to use it is when the female gets ***** then abortion kinda makes sense to chose that option.
 

Sirias

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The "I don't think it's right, but if they can't handle it then it's ok" stance is too lame and far too cbf.
But, sadly, I think it's the only way to look at things like this.
Because basically, I don't think you can always stick to one side on something as severe as abortion.
There are lots of 'ifs' in it, as well.
However...

I have to agree with Jei, and just say that it's just wrong.
And stop talking about ****, Michael, ffs.
I don't think it's right to have a say over killing a potential human baby, if it's inside you, then you should cherish it and try your best, rather than think so deeply into it and say "no".
Like I said, so many 'ifs'. I think you should change the subject, though, Michael...
I don't really see why you'd want this discussion over a gaming forum anyway, it's a bit deep and intensely opinionated.

Wouldn't you want to be given a chance at life?
Imagine *if!!!* you were aborted, because your parent/s didn't think they could raise you.
My parents couldn't, they had 4 (idiots) babies.
Basically just making lots of sacrifices, but you do that in life anyway, if you want more than to just please yourself.

I don't think taking a life can ever be 'right'.
If someone was hurting and about to die/didn't have long to live, I wouldn't do it, not unless they themselves wanted it that badly enough.
And even then I wouldn't - but this is digressing from abortion.
Actually my entire post wasn't much about it, just about general life and killing and such.

Abortion, though - bottom line, stem cell has a lot of potential, but sacrificing something as close as an unborn baby inside you...? I don't think that's right.
If you couldn't do it, there are ways of coping.
The mother may be mentally scarred, but if you could kill your own child then that's more f*cked up, don't you think?

I just agree with Jei in most of his post.
It's hard, don't know what to expect.

And to Michael and all his "****" and "shouldn't have unprotected sex" crap.
If you were ***** you would be f*cking f*cked up, so don't talk about it and then being pregnant and then saying that they should just deal with it.
The f*ck.
You'd be so messed up after it and then having the child of that/those person/people?
If you could deal with that then you'd be inhuman.
The only time I'd be iffy with abortion is in a case like that, I don't think it's ok to have a baby if you've been tortured like that and further still.
And CONDOMS aren't 100% safe, aren't they?
God d@mm, you're talking like "who cares about the -woman-, so long as we think about the baby it's a-ok!"?
 

Alzi

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I sure can:

–noun
1.the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2.any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
3.statutory ****.
4.an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the **** of the countryside.
5.Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

–verb (used with object)
6.to force to have sexual intercourse.
7.to plunder (a place); despoil.
8.to seize, take, or carry off by force.

–verb (used without object)
9.to commit ****.
 

xXArrowXx

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i never said the who cares about the women. she needs the support of the community and friends etc.
yes **** ****s people up. yeah they have a long deep scar that wont be healed.. abortion doesn't help heal it.
wtf you aren't messed up if you have the baby and give it up for adoption.. the baby didn't **** her :/


k what subject then.

Death penalty
Euthiasia
Stem cells
aliens exist?
origins of life
evil robots...
any other susgestions?

also unny i never said that you cant pull away life support.. you can refuse medical treatment. but you cant dose yourself to death.
 

Alzi

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Oh just a quick note somtimes abortion makes the female feel guilty and actually can damage her mentally.

How about we discuss whether we should change our Australian flag or not?
 

Muzga

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i think discussing abortion should segue nicely into something like the death penalty and whether or not it should exist.
 
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