Uptilt is a good, quick, gtfo me move if the Wario is right next to you.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess
- Thread starter #HBC | Red Ryu
- Start date
Samuelson
Smash Lord
So Utilt is good against every character in the game?
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
Wario is going to be right next to you a lot more often than almost every character in the game.
Timbers
check me out
you'll have to take my word for it, wario would juggle you like a little ***** all day if Luc didn't have that dair. Floaty, midsized character. You'd be ***** if you didn't have a fast and lengthy move to counter the uair. You don't even have to be amazing at spacing here. Dair is still 2x faster than the uair. It's very good at dealing with uair pressure.
I don't like being in any sort of lag against Wario, especially in the air. I don't really like nair here but different strokes I guess.
As far as utilt:
This. All of Wario's aerials have a substantial amount of lag on them as well and very little range, which makes utilt a very good anti-air move against the likes of nair and dair.
And for the record, utilt is amazing against any character that can't outspace it or are prone to juggling. Considering most can deal with it, it doesn't deserve much of a mention in most cases.
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
I still disagree about Lucario's disadvantage. Since when is mindgames and baiting vs. range and speed an ideal matchup for the prior, eh? That's like jiggs vs. marth. wtc.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
fix'd.
Wario's faster in the air, and I think his aerials are faster too. So we really don't have speed either. And it's not mindgames, it's ability to do so. Jiggs can "punish" things, but wario's punishing and jigg's punishing are two different leagues.
This kind of posting is what all true heros strive for!
Edit: I was right, his aerial game is fast. If you really want to do a comparison, his fair is two frames faster than ours, so start yours early or use it while retreating or things like that, because you won't get it much when actually vs. his fair.
Timbers
check me out
Marth vs Jiggs is such a bad analogy lol.
Sorry like I don't even know where to begin on this post. I just have to say it's wrong. Luc isn't fast, and his range isn't that big of a factor here. The only thing that we really outrange him with is fsmash vs groundgame (won't happen often as Wario is aerial dominant), Luc dair vs Wario uair, and utilt vs aerials. His aerial movement is a problem for us because we don't have superfast moves to wall him effectively from getting in close like MK or Marth, and also because we can't pressure well due to his mobility.
I'd like to point out that our weakness vs Lucario isn't that our aerials are laggy (b/c they really aren't) so much that our fastest move on the ground is five frames (lol dtilt, which is punishable), and our jump is seven.
Timbers
check me out
wario's aerials all have a long duration to them. It's not that they're startup laggy but he is stuck for a while in them.
Luc's fastest move on the ground is 6 frames, 5 frames if you include a hitbox behind Lucario (utilt). I sincerely believe the best thing Luc has in this match is anti-air with ftilt, utilt, fair, and I guess AS can be included.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I don't suppose our bair does much for us, even though it is a far reaching aerial with relatively small windup (compared to some other reaaallllyyy slow aerials).
Well, having the endlag isn't exactly so bad. Lucario will be knocked far enough away so that he can't do anything by the time they end. And nair/bair actually go pretty fast. It's bair and uair that give Wario problems.
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
Oh well. I tried.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Wait, r u talking about wario bair? Because I was talking about lucario bair, the whole "bair will definitely knocked" got me confused.
I'm sorry. That was a typo on my part. Lucario will be knocked too far back to do anything.
I hate how often I do this sort of thing.
Timbers
check me out
The lag of a move is hardly relevant when the move actually connects with the opponent. I (we) was talking about should the move be baited, shielded, or dodged.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
I love Lucario's Bair but in this match it's not very good imo.
Wario can overwhelm Lucario and he can kill us pretty **** early AND it's hard for us to kill him. If we're forced to use Extreme Speed then Wario will most likely punish our landing lag with a fart or Uair...both those moves kill. It's hard for us to kill Wario with Fsmash because good Wario's are very campy and stay in the air for a while. I usually end up killing with Dair, AS or sweet spotted Nair in this matchup.
Wario can overwhelm Lucario and he can kill us pretty **** early AND it's hard for us to kill him. If we're forced to use Extreme Speed then Wario will most likely punish our landing lag with a fart or Uair...both those moves kill. It's hard for us to kill Wario with Fsmash because good Wario's are very campy and stay in the air for a while. I usually end up killing with Dair, AS or sweet spotted Nair in this matchup.
Timbers
check me out
All of what Sam said. I kill more often with uair than I do nair and my dair is usually too stale to kill until very high percents, but I'm sure it's just my preferences over yours. It's a definite advantage Wario I think. 45:55 or 40:60, I'm not really sure.
I never did mention this before, but you give Wario a stage with platforms, and he does have the advantage. Not saying Lucario can't do the same thing, but Wario's aerials are just better suited to surprise you if he comes from below or above.
We never did discuss good stages in this match, what would good Lucario cp's be in this matchup?
We never did discuss good stages in this match, what would good Lucario cp's be in this matchup?
Timbers
check me out
luc's plat pressure is pretty blah to begin with, so yeah Wario definitely takes plats much more easily than Luc.
Stages like Smashville I like against Wario.
Stages like Smashville I like against Wario.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
My favorite stage vs Wario is Japes and Yoshi's.
Can you add a little more to this? It lacks substance, and really doesn't help.
Exactly how is it even if it comes down to stages? It's even on FD, on a stage like BF, Wario has the obvious advantage because of platform control and his sneaky aerials.
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
I suggested some stages in my first post. Orpheon actually is pretty good to cp, imo, despite Wario's good recovery. Wario's bike gets shut out by BAS here. If you're on the second stage, and he tries the bike, a BAS will clip him in the face when he's in the lower middle area and Lucario is on the slightly higher side area.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
I hope you're not suggesting Wario is going to be using the bike onstage.
To be perfectly honest, that's a good stage for Wario too. There's always a platform, but it really doesn't help Wario much.
His fsmash can kill you very early here, I think around 90+ %. Not quite sure, but I know it's brutal. It gives him just enough room to perform a lolcombo, and get you right on the edge, so you need clutch reaction. What some Lucarios screw up is going offstage to try for a gimp, this is NEVER a good idea on Frigate.
I was also thinking the same thing. It'll never be used as an attack, and in the event of a flip if he was offstage, it wouldn't matter. His aerial control can allow him to back off far enough, and still be able to recover.
As far as this matchup goes, it's still 55:45 in Wario's favor.
His fsmash can kill you very early here, I think around 90+ %. Not quite sure, but I know it's brutal. It gives him just enough room to perform a lolcombo, and get you right on the edge, so you need clutch reaction. What some Lucarios screw up is going offstage to try for a gimp, this is NEVER a good idea on Frigate.
I was also thinking the same thing. It'll never be used as an attack, and in the event of a flip if he was offstage, it wouldn't matter. His aerial control can allow him to back off far enough, and still be able to recover.
As far as this matchup goes, it's still 55:45 in Wario's favor.
Timbers
check me out
I don't think BF helps Wario out anymore than other stages. It's true that he has better plat pressure than Luc, but extra plats make it easier for Luc to play a defensive game.
I still prefer Smashville over Battlefield, but the stage isn't bad at all for Luc. I'd personally say that Yoshi's, Frigate, and Halberd would be worse stages against Wario if you want to factor in the plat pressure.
Da-D-Mon-109
Smash Lord
How exactly would Final Destination effect the match ups? It seems that Wario's enjoy stages where they can dive down upon Lucario like Hawks going for the kill, and Final Destination is completely devoid of such platforms to allow that. Also, has anyone else killed someone who tried to hide on the edge and get you to come and attack them by using a fully Charged Aura Sphere? Maybe it's just been me, but I've fought Wario's who like to try to hang on the stage wall and bait me to come to them after they've hit me a little bit, and the Aura Sphere is capable of still knocking them off.
Another stage, although it's already been stressed as an "always awesome for Lucario" stage seems to be Yoshi's Island Brawl. Between the platform that atually helps you by letting you hit hiim through it while keeping him from using his aerials against you, to a HUGE WALL CLING surface so you don't ExtremeSpeed into his Smashes and Farts (which can kill at ridiculously low percents; I heard they are stronger when not fully gassy), Yoshi's Island Brawl seems to rock for Lucario, and it could be a saving grace against a Wario.
On a random note, who'd have thought of a big bad giant like Wario being an Aerial Master? Weird.... Would Rainbow Cruise give him the win? That's a novice question with his moves and recovery, but I just wanted to ask.
Another stage, although it's already been stressed as an "always awesome for Lucario" stage seems to be Yoshi's Island Brawl. Between the platform that atually helps you by letting you hit hiim through it while keeping him from using his aerials against you, to a HUGE WALL CLING surface so you don't ExtremeSpeed into his Smashes and Farts (which can kill at ridiculously low percents; I heard they are stronger when not fully gassy), Yoshi's Island Brawl seems to rock for Lucario, and it could be a saving grace against a Wario.
On a random note, who'd have thought of a big bad giant like Wario being an Aerial Master? Weird.... Would Rainbow Cruise give him the win? That's a novice question with his moves and recovery, but I just wanted to ask.
Timbers
check me out
Yoshi island plat I think helps Wario more than us. It's constant shifting ruins a lot of fair setups if they're on the platform and forces us to resort to putting ourself in danger to pressure or avoid it altogether, while Wario can set up with uair and dair pressure with little to no hindrance.The weird terrain in general ****s up a lot of our pressure options too. It's just my opinion. The lucs I know either hate Yoshi's or love it, there's no real middleground.
I don't really recommend you take Wario to Japes. He can aircamp REALLY easily here, his bite functions like Kirby/D3s suction in the water (meaning you shoot off far before regaining control while Wario regains pretty quickly), his dair can stage spike through the stage, the ledges everywhere give him invincibility to abuse aerials or bite, etc.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
What about Weegee's Mansion? His aerial mobility is limited, his clap kills less, and even tho Oregon doesn't like it (it's banned where I am), I think it's a good CP.
Luigi's Mansion is like Wario's worst stage, lol. Everyone can abuse it more than he can, and the tiny platforms in the way all the time are lame. The pillars also force him to commit even longer to his moves. It's good for his running away, that's all.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
That's what I was thinking, the stage just doesn't look like warioware material. Plus with the teching off the walls, lucario can live really long here.
But then again, counterpick with MK/Oli, and we're dead.
So besides Weegee's, I'd think perhaps Pictochat? (I think warios don't like that stage much).
It's not that we don't like the stage much... it just seems to hate Warios 
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Oops, either I really think that lucario can air release, or I was thinking I was in the marth boards (prolly a mix between the two, likely more of the latter).
Yeah, Pwneroni told me stuff about how he no likey those stages much (and certainly how Picto hates wario, prolly some competition for a gimmicky stage perhaps? (with Wario's warioware and such)
Timbers
check me out
Mansion's good but I kind of threw the stage out of the window late summer because everyone started to ban it.
LordoftheMorning
Smash Champion
I think I might want to back out of this discussion. My knowledge of Wario doesn't seem to be adequate. See you next character, guys.
Col. Stauffenberg
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcojcb7ZMxc lol...It's not that we don't like the stage much... it just seems to hate Warios
Weegee's is nice but seems to be banned in most places now. As it should be.
I'd rather play FD or Smashville. Yoshi's seems to be too well suited for aircamping if Wario decides to go that route.
Alright. Coming from someone that uses both, and has played as Wario against Lucario, and vice versa, it's definently in Wario's favor. But like I said, not by much. Every time, I only lost by a stock. And you know what? It was because I was always knocked out first. I can't stress this enough, getting the first kill is crucial. Use Wario's mediocre stages to your advantage, and use your superior ground game wisely. Utilt and fsmash, of course.
Take him to Pictochat, but never Japes or Brinstar. FD might be a good idea for your starting neutral, of Smashville of course. From the Wario point of view, we're actually testing out a water stall to stage spike on Pirate Ship. Against CPU's, it works, but not quite sure about humans.
I'll test it some other time, and if this works, it could become the most useful Wario cp yet. And it's not exactly a terrible stage to begin with, for him.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
Ive never lost to a Wario on Japes...