SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[Timbers]

I know it does, I'm saying he doesn't even have to risk the dolphin slash afterlag against FPCG. He can just break out and then he's face to face with you, with a much better closequarters game than yourself.

 

[iRJi]

Er, trust me on this one, and I go against a pretty **** good marth(IMO) on a daily basis.
That dolphin slash can get him out of SO many things

Lol jacob he doesn't need to Dolphin Slash out of it. Just because Pierce does it to us all the time doesn't mean its the only way out.

Btw people, I have some vids from my crew meet today with Pierce. I'll go through them, then post one up later.

Edit: Also Jacob, Pierce is pretty pissed that you showed up at his house today when he said not too. You know we were having a crew meet, and im almost sure he said not to show up. You might want to talk to him.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think we've discussed quite a bit about marth, I think we could refer to some of the stuff in the old matchup thread that's still decently accurate, but srsly, don't take him to BF unless it's a player challenge (like if he somehow sucks at marth on BF, which is like never), use shield intelligently, because you're going to do a lot of stuff transitioning out of it for punishment, don't keep yourself in his good spacing, get underneath and juggle if you can, and imo, 60:40 marth's favor. This is still a match where player skill is going to be the ultimate influence in this matchup, as opposed to character design vs. character design (although ours is not quite as good as marth's imo) and stage options.

 

[A New England Winter]

It doesn't matter if you main Lucario

That always matters. Always.

Has it already been established that our BAir outspaces his Fair?

Also, Marth's FSmash has loads of lag at the end. Dunno if you knew that.

At low percents, DTilt -> FSmash tipper ;-;

 

[DarkDragoon]

At low percents, DTilt -> FSmash tipper ;-;

DI better.
-DD

 

[DarkDragoon]

9)******This one is Big. From me playing with Pierce all the time, you pick up some dumb **** that make you wanna kill sakurai. Marth has a Grab Trap against Lucario. Here I will go into further explanation:

When Marth grabs you, his floor release does not release that far against Lucario. You have no move fast enough that can stop Marth from regrabbing you.

So in other words, If Marth grabs you, He can pummle until you release and then he can regrab for a pummle again. Your only option is to roll out.

So like your thinking "Hey at least I can roll out" Well yea you can, but now it becomes a Tech. Chase because He knows you can roll out of it. See the point?

I agreed with everything until this.
While yes, its true the grab option is there, you CAN roll out of it.

Which way do you roll?

If you want to be stupid, roll towards Marth. Maybe he won't expect it and mess up. Maybe he'll just punish you.

If you want to be tricky, spot dodge. If he is going for another grab or took a step and planned to FSmash, then you've dodged it and can punish/retaliate.

If you want to be defensive, roll back. Tech chase? As if. There are only 2 options Marth can do to REALLY follow you, and that is a dash grab or a dash attack. So there, its a 50% guessing game. You can shieldgrab the attack, and spot dodge or roll again to avoid a grab.

>_> The matchup is still 60:40 though. =P

My browser > McFox's.
-DD

 

[iRJi]

Video is up. Go take a lookie.

 

[G-Beast]

if there is a vid of it up link it please.

 

[iRJi]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223472

Here you go. =]

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

: Also Jacob, Pierce is pretty pissed that you showed up at his house today when he said not too. You know we were having a crew meet, and im almost sure he said not to show up. You might want to talk to him.

One, why did you just use my actual name
Two, He said I could have, since R00ki3 and Ryko were not comming.

 

[iRJi]

One: because I can. Its not like any9one is going to **** you.
Two: Thats not what he said. He said and quote "Did Jacob come over? I told him not to come" So, you better go talk to him.

 

[Timbers]

I agreed with everything until this.
While yes, its true the grab option is there, you CAN roll out of it.

I don't think you understand what a trap is lol.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223472

Here you go. =]

Why did Pierce keep trying to DB through full aurasphere? lol.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Lol, It's a TRAP!

 

[iRJi]

I don't think you understand what a trap is lol.




Why did Pierce keep trying to DB through full aurasphere? lol.

Friendly's Lol. All we do is rush each other since playing tourney style is boring. Plus you might never know what you can find out by just doing random things.

But to tell you the truth, I have no exact idea myself. Lolololol. Must have been from playing non stop all day.

 

[Popertop]

I'd just like to point out the fact that Marth Fair'd through a FULLY CHARGED AURASHPERE in that vid.
and that is complete bull**** and should never happen.

 

[Timbers]

Marth's fair outprioritizes full charged AS at any percent when stock buffs aren't involved. I never tested if it's possible at 1 stock disadvantage and 2 stock.

 

[Popertop]

that's horse****
I hate marth

 

[iRJi]

Its not possible. When you are a stock down he can't cut through it when it fully charged, but it also counts to teh % count. If you are a stock down he can still cut a full one until you are to about 70%. Any decent marth will choose the option to fair the AS when he can then to shield it. Not only does his fair cut through AS, the attack continues so he can rush you also.

 

[Timbers]

70% and a stock down? Are you sure about that? It seems awfully low considering 170% and 0 stock can't get through his fair.

 

[iRJi]

Yea im fairly sure. I can go test it to be exact but that will have to be done tomorrow. Tonight im way to tired lol.

Edit: Mm, Come to think about it, we should be pretty much done with marth. Everyone agrees with a 60:40 in marths favor I believe. If so then lets do GW next. Might as well get our "Possible" worse matchup we have out the way.

Edit2: I'm actually glad you took over Timbers. The thread is moving smoothly.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

So we're now moving to G&W. I mean I think every Luc knows this is the worst matchup, but how about doing King DeDeDe or Diddy Kong, more frequently used tourny characters.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Worst matchup or not, I'm still more scared of Marths and DDDs.

 

[Timbers]

GaW is likely to be next, but I still think DDD is as bad a matchup as GaW. I'll either move onto DDD, GaW, or Wario. I mention Wario only because I think this match needs to be discussed soon, reasons being that there's been a pretty large increase of Wario players lately and Wario as a whole has reshaped it's metagame a lot recently. If it's been a while since a Lucario has played a Wario, they may need a heads up on what to expect from Warios now.

Thanks for the compliment on the thread, I'll try to keep it moving as well as I can. I only hope that there's enough people that can contribute to this thread, as it seems the spark of debating matchups is nonexistant now, as proven by the MK and Marth boards giving minimal advice and only several Lucarios giving input on these matches. I myself have to refrain from giving too much info on matches as I've been too busy recently to actually play a match and analyze matchup features. I can pretty much only say what a Lucario can and can't do right now, not what his opponents will and won't do. tl;dr just hope there's enough willpower in this board to progress through the rest of the roster.


*The thread discussion for Marth seems to be closing, if there is no discussion by tomorrow, I will move onto either GaW, Wario, or DDD. The opinion of this board seems to feel Lucario vs Marth is 40:60.

 

[iRJi]

D3 is our 3rd worse matchup in my opinion, being that GW and Marth are our worse. I get alot of practice against D3 since 2 people in my crew main him. Its hard to deal with but its manageable. I can give a great detailed explanation for both GW and D3. Wario I can only cover just a little more then the surface. My only practice against wario is Yes's and Malcolm, and although they are both really good with them, elements are missing from both. When I played reflex I was kind of playing a guessing game on what he was going to do next. I still think that we have an advantage against Wario, and a lot of Wario players think the same way. Either/or I don't mind talking about either of them when its time too.

Let the Discussion roll!

 

[hichez50]

GW is though for lucario. In my opinion because he's such a smash target and everything has to be more accurate. Then D3 is nemesis. If you play a lucario with a bad air game you probably will have to be a bit campy.

@iRJi Explain to me in more detail how we have the advantage over wario.

 

[G-Beast]

personally i think DDD is much much much worse then GaW... who isnt quite so scary with proper spacing

 

[iRJi]

GW is though for lucario. In my opinion because he's such a smash target and everything has to be more accurate. Then D3 is nemesis. If you play a lucario with a bad air game you probably will have to be a bit campy.

@iRJi Explain to me in more detail how we have the advantage over wario.

I will if thats what we go onto next. I don't want to go out of the way in the discussion order. It will make things unorganized and sloppy and thats not what we want because everything is nice and orderly now. Just gotta wait a bit man lol. W/e timbers picks next I will gladly put my 2 cents in.

Edit:

So we're now moving to G&W. I mean I think every Luc knows this is the worst matchup, but how about doing King DeDeDe or Diddy Kong, more frequently used tourny characters.

They are used at a high amount *Shippo*, just not in our area as much. Everyone knows how to play him around here, just no one mains him.

 

[hichez50]

Ill put in 3 cents. lol. Im looking forward to see what characters next. When is timber going to update the chart.

 

[iRJi]

Soon enough, most likely today. Patience is key to a victory in almost any situation. No rush either for this, he is doing a good job. He knows when to do it lol.

 

[Timbers]

When is timber going to update the chart.

* if there is no discussion by tomorrow, I will move onto either GaW, Wario, or DDD.

10sadfaces

 

[Timbers]

this post brought to you by the amazing sexual experience of double post.


Luc vs. Wario, let's do it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Good, I just lost to a Wario in tournament today. I honestly know nothing about the matchup.

 

[:mad:]

I feel a bit conflicted, seeing as how I use both.

In my humble opinion, this seems like an even matchup. Lucario has the advantage on the ground, in terms of tilts and smashes. Waft might be Lucario's biggest problem, jab cancel to fully charged waft kills early, and can put you back to the weak 0% Lucario, and not the cool 150% one.

Wario can do a better job of gimping Lucario, though, his aerials and recovery are more suited for it. To play against Wario, you need good reaction time because he has great aerial control. Stick to utilt, fair, fsmash, and nair, those are your best bets.

But when it comes to recovery, aerials, and taunts, Wario wins. Just keep up the aerial comboes in this matchup. So for that, 55:45 in Wario's favor, only a slight advantage.

Just don't play DMG, or he'll stall and your high damage will be a bad thing.

Spoiler

I lie.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Hmm, well an old friend of mine started using Wario all of the sudden. After he killed all my secondaries and caused some slight irritation, I brought out the big guns (meaning ). I have to say, it was SO much easier to win against Wario with Lucario.

Wario will pester you a LOT with Dairs (or at least some will) it's hard to punish. His aerials have deceptively low landing lag. It looks like you should be able to punish, but his sheild comes up way faster than you would think it would. He can also boost Usmash surpisingly well. And it kills surprisingly well, too. Just keep that in mind. Also, his bite is pretty silly. It's super annoying and he can suicide kill you with it. I'm pretty sure you can simply Dair him if he opens his gaping maw.

Try using grabs to punish his landings. That way if he shields, it doesn't matter.
I think Lucario does a pretty good job of shutting down Wario's strengths. Fair combos are really kewl in this matchup. Fair has a good range and a decent lingering hit box. Wario likes to buzz around you with his awesome aerial movespeed, so I could just join him up dere and combo that boob. Utilt, of course, can punish/juggle people who underestimate it's range and speed.

If you manage to catch Wario off the stage with his bike somewhere else, go for the edgeguard. Otherwise, his recovery is usually too good to be gimped without herculean effort.

Our higher range in general is going to be our biggest advantage in this matchup. Lucario should beats out Wario on the ground for this reason. Just watch out for his tricksies (bike/bite) and you should be okay.

Frigate Orpheon seems to be a good choice because you can camp him pretty well. If he hops on his bike while on the second rotation of the stage, a BAS/AS will clip him in the head if he's in the middle area and you're near on of the slightly higher side areas. Pwned.

You could also try something that discourages aerial play? FD maybe, iono.

I would actually put this matchup as a 55-45/60-40 in our favor, although if I'm totally wrong don't flame me. It's not like I fight Warios every day.

EDIT: That pic in the OP is so scary...

 

[:mad:]

Excellent explanation, but really, it's not an advantage either way. Since Wario can kill early, you'll start at 0% with your attacks weakened. Keep an Aura Sphere fresh, and meet Wario halfway. If you upsmash, the long-lasting hitbox could probably trade with dair, but I'm not entirely sure.

The Wario you fought might not have had Lucario experience with Wario.
And I can almost guarantee that you will fall for some aerial mindgames. Like, because of his aerial speed, he can make it seem like he'll approach and hit with a fair. He'll retreat back, but still have enough time to reapproach and fair. You probably won't expect this, and he'll get an easy 7%. Watch out for this. It's nice that all of this can be done in 1 or 2 jumps. And to be honest, I do have a little experience on both sides. I fought a few Warios with Lucario, and few Lucarios with Wario. The matches were pretty even, actually. Both characters can combo the other with their unique aerials. So it's all about who really gets the first kill.

If you can manage to take him out, and still be at 130% or so, you can rack up some quick damage before finally getting KO'd. I must say, if Wario gets the first kill, it might be a harder matchup, because you'll have to work harder for those kills, because you'll come back weaker than before.

Some Wario's can pull off a jab combo - nair - bite, which can deal some serious damage. It really does depend on the stage, how well you play, and how good the Wario is.

Utilt is your greatest asset in this matchup. But with good DI, and a great recovery, he'll beat you offstage.

Edit: I'll also change the color of this post so it looks pretty. I dun wanna irritate your eyes if you decide to read.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Well that's the standard dilemma of a Lucario main. You want to kill before being killed. It's not really the end of the world if you don't though. Fsmash can still kill near an edge, and if you come back with the momentum on your side, it's no problem. This sort of thing isn't unique to Wario, though. One could say the same thing about Ike, and I believe we are at an advantage against Ike.

 

[:mad:]

Well that's the standard dilemma of a Lucario main. You want to kill before being killed. It's not really the end of the world if you don't though. Fsmash can still kill near an edge, and if you come back with the momentum on your side, it's no problem. This sort of thing isn't unique to Wario, though. One could say the same thing about Ike, and I believe we are at an advantage against Ike.

Well, in this situation, killing first is essential. Wario has 2 multi-hit attacks that can combo a floaty Lucario. Nair and Dair can rack up that damage fast against a Lucario, if he gets the first kill. When fighting Lucario, a person's intent is often to just take you out first, and get as much damage is possible done before dying.

Even an uncharged waft is deadly, and you'll never expect it. So that's fairly dangerous for you. Good hitbox, great knockback. So uh, pretty much just kill first, avoid using those certain moves, and use the ground game to your advantage, since your fsmash outranges his fsmash.

But when it comes down to this matchup, it's either even or Wario advantage.
50:50 or 45:55 for you guys.

 

[Timbers]

Trying to kill a Wario without aura buff is incredibly f*cktarded. It's near impossible to actually land an fsmash on Wario due to aerial mobility, aggressive aerial properties, and punish game on a move like fsmash. With the aura buff, except to kill him around 140-150%, and without it, it's not uncommon for Wario to reach low 200s. Not being able to nab the kill on Wario before you lose a stock is infuriating.

 

[:mad:]

Trying to kill a Wario without aura buff is incredibly f*cktarded. It's near impossible to actually land an fsmash on Wario due to aerial mobility, aggressive aerial properties, and punish game on a move like fsmash. With the aura buff, except to kill him around 140-150%, and without it, it's not uncommon for Wario to reach low 200s. Not being able to nab the kill on Wario before you lose a stock is infuriating.

Yup, too true. Your best bet is to bair once he's at the higher percentage, since that's the best aerial in terms of knockback. Or dair, either or.

Oh, and never dash attack a Wario.

 

[Timbers]

Yup, too true. Your best bet is to bair once he's at the higher percentage, since that's the best aerial in terms of knockback. Or dair, either or.

Oh, and never dash attack a Wario.

I actually dislike bair a lot in this matchup. Lots of startup and afterlag, and Wario is too good at getting in close. If it's a horizontal confrontation in the air, I much prefer fair over bair. Bair leaves too much room for punishment. As far as killers are concerned, AS and uair are my go-to moves.