SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[Da-D-Mon-109]

This message is probably in the wrong place... but LOOKIE! I EVOLVED!

I AM NOW A JOURNEYMAN!

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Sorry for the double post... I just wanted my 100th's post to be special...

Again, we cut his aerial game in half with our up and down airs, but if he smacks us diagonally down left or down right, I feel our forward air does a better job of defending us than our back air... also our Neutral Air does DY-NO-MITE damage and power... and ES is worthless if he is waiting to intercept it....

We can recover fine if Metaknight knocks us up, because of our superb Down Aerial... infact, if he does get us knocked up, we might be able to kill him for it (it's happened in my favor several times)...

Aerial Dodges are good as long as he doesn't Mach Tornado or Side-B (what the heck is that move's name?) us. Some of our aerials (I believe our forward) might help in that situation too.. but Aerial Dodges seem to be better if we are knocked up by him than knocked down...


I just realised how nasty it sounds.. Lucario being Knocked up by Metaknight... XD

 

[Timbers]

I don't really have much to say since i'm ... still not much of a tourneygoer, but even though it might be slightly chaotic, wouldn't it be better to take matchup info in for several characters at once, instead of one at a time so the matchup list gets completed faster? Say, 2-3 characters at once, maybe?

chaotic

no .

 

[Aurasmash14]

Sorry for the double post... I just wanted my 100th's post to be special...

Again, we cut his aerial game in half with our up and down airs, but if he smacks us diagonally down left or down right, I feel our forward air does a better job of defending us than our back air... also our Neutral Air does DY-NO-MITE damage and power... and ES is worthless if he is waiting to intercept it....

We can recover fine if Metaknight knocks us up, because of our superb Down Aerial... infact, if he does get us knocked up, we might be able to kill him for it (it's happened in my favor several times)...

Aerial Dodges are good as long as he doesn't Mach Tornado or Side-B (what the heck is that move's name?) us. Some of our aerials (I believe our forward) might help in that situation too.. but Aerial Dodges seem to be better if we are knocked up by him than knocked down...


I just realised how nasty it sounds.. Lucario being Knocked up by Metaknight... XD

why the heck will metaknight use his tornado or drill rush in the air?! It rarely kills and it puts him into helpless mode. this is in fact one of the mistakes most MK noobs do, drill rush of the stage or mach tornado off the stage and end up SD'ing. If for some reason he does use it this is when a FCAS comes in handy. After his tornado breaks lay it on him! And our nair will give us extra spacing to lay on another AS on him, killing him if fully charged and MK is high on damage, or if not should send him back far enough to reach the ground safely and plan the next move. (and if the Mk you're fighting is really relentless and glides toward you to get revenge, leap over his glide and and dair!)

 

[Mattsy]

no .

This.

You know in the end we'd mix up advice vs Ganondorf and advice vs Metaknight and traumatise some up and coming smasher for life.

Side note: Why do I always feel bad say 'up and coming'

Also, I dislike uair in this matchup. Not sure about the priorities, but MK's dair always seems win out. Failing that, they could always fast fall into shuttle loop which, admittedly has some side effects for them, but I'd prefer not to take the chance, especially when I'M at a high enough percent to have the kill power in uair to KO MK off the top at a reasonable percent.

 

[AuraKid]

Using an off-stage Dair can knock him away from the stage, and Fairs can knock him further.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Aurasmash, I was under the assumption that we had been knocked off of the stage and were trying to get back to the stage. People argued that all of Metaknight's specials were rigged because they could do good damage, gimp enemy's recoveries and damage our recoveries as well. It's not a "noob" thing for a Metaknight to jump off of the stage, hover in the air, and use the Mach Tornado to get back to stage while completely blocking most attempts for us to recover. And also, much more often than not, assuming you have time to throw it and still recover, a Fully-Charged Aura Sphere will stop most, if not all of Metaknight's attacks Cold, so you usually don't have to wait until using another high priority move when you can blast him away from you. What I'd LOVE to see is a situation where a Metaknight that knows what he's doing lets you get back to stage after you do an aerial, throw a Fully-Charged Aura Sphere, somehow charge another one and recover at the same time, and then get back into the fight. Dude, I wanna see a video of you doing all of that and seeing how well it works out. Lucario might be able to do anything he wants, but that sounds a little over the top for me.

 

[Timbers]

why the heck will metaknight use his tornado or drill rush in the air?

Because both are good for getting onstage, less punishable, and (nado) punishes airdodges and landing frames.

I actually think MKs use drillrush and nado in the air (moving into the ground) more often than starting on the ground.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Exactly! Oh, I forgot one thing. I was looking at videos for some reason, and I honestly crapped myself. Azen is so amazing... I wish he could help guide us into greatness... But I was watching him fight on Yoshi's Island Brawl, and it just hit me how much of an incredible stage that is to use. Even if Metaknight feels like getting all guardy and campy and crap, you can fall down, and then ExtremeSpeed to one of the walls and wall cling, and then jump back up to the Stage! Omg I forgot Lucario could wall cling! Frigate Orpheon has been noted as another good Lucario stage too...

Azen and Mew2king. Those two are incredible. I'd honestly be able to die happy if I could one day be able to game against them. I couldn't care less how long I last, just to be able to be on the same Wii or in the same Wifi room against them, and I'd be able to die happy. Honestly, I'm watching these videos and I ask "How does fighting multiple lvl 9 computers make you bad?" You'd need to be able to do that or be on meth to have the reactiontime to keep up with these two...

Edit:I for some reason also seem to have confidence in the Haliberd as a good stage for Lucario. Despite all of the open air in which Metaknight gets to Shuttle-Loop all he wants, the celling seems very short. Koing him off the top during one of his aerials seems to be a pretty good option. And I'm not sure, but Lucario might be able to wall-cling to the main hull of the ship... throwing Metaknight's butt into the bomb or lazer also seem like dirty ways to win, but Metaknight can dust his butt off with his cape later, after we kick him back to dreamland!

 

[phi1ny3]

why the heck will metaknight use his tornado or drill rush in the air?! It rarely kills and it puts him into helpless mode. this is in fact one of the mistakes most MK noobs do, drill rush of the stage or mach tornado off the stage and end up SD'ing. If for some reason he does use it this is when a FCAS comes in handy. After his tornado breaks lay it on him! And our nair will give us extra spacing to lay on another AS on him, killing him if fully charged and MK is high on damage, or if not should send him back far enough to reach the ground safely and plan the next move. (and if the Mk you're fighting is really relentless and glides toward you to get revenge, leap over his glide and and dair!)

Tornado can be used offstage if you know what you're doing (heck, it is even recommended as an edgeguard in an MK ditto, since he can't really outprioritize it from underneath). Just make sure you land before the tornado ends.
Drill rush is sometimes used as a recovery (hardly though compared to the other options), and sometimes a stall (though fails compared to his other options). Don't expect drill rush much, if at all.

 

[Timbers]

MK's nair and shuttleloop shreds tornado.

 

[phi1ny3]

MK's nair and shuttleloop shreds tornado.

From MK matchup discussion

"In MK dittos, the smartest person with the best spacing wins. F-tilt when MK charges at you. Use tornado as a recovery as well as edgeguard (MK can't up+b through MK's tornado). MK dittos are seperated in to two pieces: the ground game and the ledge game.
-InfernoOmni

Dojo also said that it is difficult for another MK to recover underneath a tornadoing MK. I was talking about underneath. I think if two people who use MK say that Shuttle Loop can't **** tornado (and I guess nair is the same for that matter), then tornado is a viable MK ditto edgeguard.

 

[iRJi]

Just to keep everyone reminded, we need to proceed with our other matchups. Might be time to start giving it numbers. I already said that its a 60:40 in my opinion. Also, are we just going to go down the tier list in order? If not we should do marth next, and if we do that expect a long, long explanation from me since its the matchup i know the best since Pierce and me are in the same crew.

 

[|RK|]

Whoa, a rushed opinion is just as bad as an outdated one, cowboy.

 

[Timbers]

I don't want to go down the tier list. My goal is to hit the characters that might require an actual explanation on how to deal with for newer players, or hit characters that give Lucario trouble to begin with in the first place. That will, coincidentally, land us on Marth, GaW, or DDD next. I'm not sure which I'll pick first.

Phil is that comment extracted from the same thread that has 65:35 MK favor over Luc because we can't deal with nado well? lol. Anyways there was a few sets of M2K vs. various MKs several months back, and nair and shuttleloop destroyed a lot of MK's recovery options, including nado.

But I don't give a **** about what MK can do about another MK, lets get back to Luc vs. MK. While I do want to flesh out the discussion, I want to do it as quickly as possible.

 

[phi1ny3]

Edit:
Okay, now that I looked more on the matchup chart, it is indeed old, so I can see how MK ditto info can be "outdated".
I asked them today on QA thread, and they still say this:

Yes, its very effective. Tornado beats Shuttle Loop and N-air.

Shuttle Loop can go through SL, but its very difficult to land correctly.

If your reading an opponent who's about to shuttle loop or an MK gliding towards you, then yes it can be effective. It can be beaten though, there are better ways to edgeguard another MK. (aka, don't do it when he's above you, dair can kill tornado easily [phil's comment]).

Also, I hope to liven up these boards a bit more. It seems so egh, so I'll be answering questions full time on here, and updating the OP with FAQs and what-not so we don't have to deal with so many repeats.

Just saying, but yes, let's get back to MK vs. Lucario:

On MK:
60:40 imo
Don't get gimped.
Shield is your friend if you know how to use it right (his grab is relatively predictable, you can tilt your shield up to avoid shield stab via tornado, and most of MK's move have relatively low shield hitstun).

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I guess I'm still smoking, because since we have so many different ways to go through his aerial game, that his grab game comes up almost as short as he is, and that our ground games are fairly even, I still can't say that he beats us. I'd be willing to call it 50-50, but I still think that Lucario could slaughter Metaknight, although he would have to make 0 mistakes to beat the game's best character.

But then again, you guys probably know more than I do... I really wish Azen could give us his take on the situation... probably no one knows Lucario better than he does.

 

[iRJi]

I guess I'm still smoking, because since we have so many different ways to go through his aerial game, that his grab game comes up almost as short as he is, and that our ground games are fairly even, I still can't say that he beats us. I'd be willing to call it 50-50, but I still think that Lucario could slaughter Metaknight, although he would have to make 0 mistakes to beat the game's best character.

But then again, you guys probably know more than I do... I really wish Azen could give us his take on the situation... probably no one knows Lucario better than he does.

Actually to tell you the truth, I asked him that at CoT. all he told me was that the matchup is hard to deal with. Didn't give any details on it though.

Whoa, a rushed opinion is just as bad as an outdated one, cowboy.

Im not really in a rush at all, its that we discussed this already 1/2 way, and we do have enough points to make an opinion about the numbers.

 

[|RK|]

I'd say 45:55 (or 42:58 lol). We are making a generalization of MK's moves on everyone. We can overcome these, easier done than said.

EDIT:

Hmm... a fully charged Aura Sphere has priority over the M. Tornado, Right? I'd suggest keeping one at all times in preparation... So he can't spam it when he's at high enough percentage to be killed...Oh, and staying out of Shuttle Loop range is obviously crucial at higher percentages. As already stressed, use range to your advantage... Despite Lucario's best game being in the air, you should stay out of the air, since Meta's more deadly than us there... Even if you have to use the Force Palm Flame and F-tilt to bring up damage... The only time you should get close is for U-tilt, possibly, or the far riskier U-Smash. As Meta has multiple jumps and a glide, the sides aren't exactly the best place to attempt a kill... Yeah...

Y'know, if you guys would come and discuss these high percent strategies, we could and would do better. We already have survival down, so we could launch an MK so fast he couldn't DI. Please, help. Srsly.

 

[fonzi21]

I don't want to go down the tier list. My goal is to hit the characters that might require an actual explanation on how to deal with for newer players, or hit characters that give Lucario trouble to begin with in the first place. That will, coincidentally, land us on Marth, GaW, or DDD next. I'm not sure which I'll pick first.

I probably missed it somewhere, but I would love to see a discussion on Falco.
If i did can someone give me a link to where it is?

 

[|RK|]

Our old matchup thread was outdated so we're making a brand new one and haven't gotten to Falco yet. 'Sides, Falco isn't one of our really hard matchups.

 

[Timbers]

I picked MK first since that's where Kita's thread left off. I was hoping the discussion would still be fresh and I could pick out some quotes from that thread incase we were missing some info. Technically RJ is right in saying that this discussion should finish up much sooner than others. I'll let you guys move at your own pace and when you think it's done give me a verdict and I'll move on. I won't leave you hanging lol.

I probably missed it somewhere, but I would love to see a discussion on Falco.
If i did can someone give me a link to where it is?

Don't think we ever made it to Falco.

 

[Hence]

Summary:
1. Resist F-Airing MK. (Combos.)
2. Spam Tilts/AS.
3. Lucario's F-Smash can be dash grabbed out of shield, be careful.
4. Don't edgeguard MK.
5. Don't get shuttle looped. (Combo'd.)
6. ???????
7. Deficit

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Don't forget that offstage is going to be his win, both on the offensive and recovering end.

OK, so what do you do if you do get offstage? I think our options are with AS, fair, uair, AD, dair (to mess up his timing when he coordinates a gimp attempt with his aerial) and ES.

Speaking of which, don't wall cling on stages like FD. MK will drop down and Dair for a stage spike.

Recovering against MK is a chore. We can try to Extremespeed back on but he'll just Nair. :/

Actually to tell you the truth, I asked him that at CoT. all he told me was that the matchup is hard to deal with. Didn't give any details on it though.

I could have sworn Azen said he sucks fighting against MKs. MK being banned in his area or something.

 

[phi1ny3]

Summary:
1. Resist F-Airing MK. (Combos.)
2. Spam Tilts/AS.
3. Lucario's F-Smash can be dash grabbed out of shield, be careful.
4. Don't edgeguard MK.
5. Don't get shuttle looped. (Combo'd.)
6. ???????
7. Deficit

One 3, don't forget he can ftilt us outside of fsmash range, and I guess for number 6, add "Stay away from offstage as much as possible, and for 2, add jab as a good move.

 

[|RK|]

Yeah, yeah, call it silly, but why not make yourself a bit floatier using DT in mid-air? Then aim Extremespeed and go. combine that floatiness with your own so not much altitude is lost.

 

[Timbers]

One 3, don't forget he can ftilt us outside of fsmash range, and I guess for number 6, add "Stay away from offstage as much as possible, and for 2, add jab as a good move.

MK's ftilt has considerably less range than Luc's fsmash..

 

[Browny]

i honestly dont get where you guys are coming from with being able to grab you oos vs an fsmash. MK's dash grab isnt even the fastest in the game, and his ground speed isnt top either. If MK can dash grab a shielded fsmash, that means any character with faster ground speed or a decent sized grab range should be able to do it too.

Of course if this is the case, that just means fsmash is a whole lot less safer than we ever thought (in general, not just vs MK)

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, yeah, call it silly, but why not make yourself a bit floatier using DT in mid-air? Then aim Extremespeed and go. combine that floatiness with your own so not much altitude is lost.

Better idea:
Stall intermittently with dair. DT allows almost no control during the fall period, and essentially has no gain besides getting yourself targeted for a gimp. Dair can function like DB for marth so that if he edgehogs, dair, then second jump to either fair or BAS to get him off. Plus if you're recovering above the edge, it throws off his spacing, and is sometimes safer than AD (he'll usually do nair to punish AD).

MK's ftilt has considerably less range than Luc's fsmash..

This time I really wish I had vids of me getting pwned by MK ftilt after I fsmash, I was still in the "burst" frames when he would attack me, then follow up with fair/whatever in the air, and so I wouldn't put it past it to be able to punish fsmash. Either that, or he can attack you inbetween the fsmash IASA frames.

 

[|RK|]

Better idea:
Stall intermittently with dair. DT allows almost no control during the fall period, and essentially has no gain besides getting yourself targeted for a gimp. Dair can function like DB for marth so that if he edgehogs, dair, then second jump to either fair or BAS to get him off. Plus if you're recovering above the edge, it throws off his spacing, and is sometimes safer than AD (he'll usually do nair to punish AD).

That is a better idea. Didn't think of it lol.

Oh, as I put in the "The Aura is MINE!" topic, Lucario can do momentum cancelling better than most. Since fast-falling can be dangerous in recovering (might go too low), Lucario can DT in midair to bring himself back to a normal falling rate. So yeah, breakthoughs on surviving in there, as discovered by other people. We do have quite a chance of beating MK with mastery of these techniques. So, in regards to that, it's either 50:50 or 45:50 (50:50 may be when the mastery comes. Aura will have it's own matchup thread when we get further).

 

[culexus・wau]

Don't think we ever made it to Falco.

We could always have a debate in the Falco IRC. or get them to come to the Lucario IRC.
I strongly recommend the former because something tells me We'll go super duper uber silly in our chat :3. it's what he do so...


/suggestion

and on MK I must say I find the match-up A LOT more easier if you stick to the ground and SHAD instead of Roll. IDK, thats just how I felt while facing some SoCal MKs, [Some Randoms, Rej, & DSF (Who ***** me but I got 2 stocks off on Japes <3)]

 

[Timbers]

i honestly dont get where you guys are coming from with being able to grab you oos vs an fsmash. MK's dash grab isnt even the fastest in the game, and his ground speed isnt top either. If MK can dash grab a shielded fsmash, that means any character with faster ground speed or a decent sized grab range should be able to do it too.

Of course if this is the case, that just means fsmash is a whole lot less safer than we ever thought (in general, not just vs MK)

MK has a great grab range and great ground speed. Not many characters have the luxury of both.

I doubt MK is the only one that can punish fsmash, the original reason this even came up was because someone was claiming that Luc's fsmash was impossible to punish if spaced properly.

This time I really wish I had vids of me getting pwned by MK ftilt after I fsmash, I was still in the "burst" frames when he would attack me, then follow up with fair/whatever in the air, and so I wouldn't put it past it to be able to punish fsmash. Either that, or he can attack you inbetween the fsmash IASA frames.

Did he spotdodge your fsmash and then ftilt? Fsmash extends your hurtbox by a bit. Still doesn't mean he can ftilt you OUTSIDE of fsmash range.

 

[phi1ny3]

Wouldn't he be eaten by the after bits of fsmash (if it didn't end already) if he spotdodged? No he didn't, because he wasn't in the fsmash hitbox, he was outside of it. Regardless, fsmash is very punishable in this matchup, this doesn't affect the whole dashgrab shenanigan MK can do. Now onto other things. On the subject of SHAD, just make sure he doesn't do nair on you when you do this to the point of predictability.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I honestly could have sworn that our Forward Smash was good against his tilts, just bad if he can see it coming and hit us while are still cooling down from it.

Btw, I've been Brawling with this dude online, and I can beat him against any of his characters on any stage EXCEPT for Wolf and Wario. They seem to give me trouble. After Metaknight is finished and Falco is finished, and if anyone else has trouble with them, can we try strategies for fighting against one of those two?

Back to Metaknight, I just kinda like staying near the center of the stage, not always relying on our ground game, but not going crazy airborn to the point where we might not react as fast to his combos from the sides. Shading's good, but done too many times and it's as punishable as roll-dodging is. The best move Metaknight has on the ground (assuming you make sure he knows you'll punish him for his specials with the saved up Aura Sphere) would be his Down Smash, and Shading lets you down air hiim when he tries it. Rolling might still leave you vunerable to it.

Btw, is it easier to Shad with the Wiimote or the Gamecube Controller? I've been using the Wiimote, but it seems harder to do for me than using the Cube Control.

 

[iRJi]

I honestly could have sworn that our Forward Smash was good against his tilts, just bad if he can see it coming and hit us while are still cooling down from it.

Btw, I've been Brawling with this dude online, and I can beat him against any of his characters on any stage EXCEPT for Wolf and Wario. They seem to give me trouble. After Metaknight is finished and Falco is finished, and if anyone else has trouble with them, can we try strategies for fighting against one of those two?

Just had to Lol on that real fast =D. But honestlly we should worry about our worse match ups. D3, MK, Marth, Oli, GW. I think they come in priority first in comparison to others.

And don't worry, I'm not makin fun of you or anything about the online thing, Its just a joke between me and rookie, and every time I see online I lol.

 

[Browny]

Demon, id say EVERYTHING is harder on the wiimote. the only reason the GC controller may seem harder to do things, is because your not used to it. go GC exclusive for a week and then see if you still prefer wiimote.

honestly its like playing a flight simulator using a M&K instead of a joystick imo lol. sure people can be good at it (wiimote/M&K) at first and find it harder to adjust, but give it time and the GC/joystick is almost always easier to do everything with

 

[Timbers]

Wouldn't he be eaten by the after bits of fsmash (if it didn't end already) if he spotdodged?

Hitbox ends around frame 30, Luc is stuck in afterlag until frame 45 or something. MK's ftilt is 3 frames. Yer.

Demon, id say EVERYTHING is harder on the wiimote. the only reason the GC controller may seem harder to do things, is because your not used to it. go GC exclusive for a week and then see if you still prefer wiimote.

honestly its like playing a flight simulator using a M&K instead of a joystick imo lol. sure people can be good at it (wiimote/M&K) at first and find it harder to adjust, but give it time and the GC/joystick is almost always easier to do everything with

this.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Because both are good for getting onstage, less punishable, and (nado) punishes airdodges and landing frames.

I actually think MKs use drillrush and nado in the air (moving into the ground) more often than starting on the ground.

I know that... i thought he meant above the stage not off the stage.... if used in those ways then heck it isnt stupid. it practical.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I used to play Melee all the time, but I felt like giving the Wiimotes a try because I like them. Maybe I should switch to the Cube controller and see how well I can do.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I used to play Melee all the time, but I felt like giving the Wiimotes a try because I like them. Maybe I should switch to the Cube controller and see how well I can do.

I'm not saying that you can't be good with the Wiimote+Numchuck (you can't be good with just the Wiimote, though, I'll tell you that much), but the cube controller is just a better option.

But that's off-topic.

MK sucks, but not as bad as DDD (IMO, of course). When will we discuss DDD?