SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[:mad:]

Other than you, me, and maybe 1 other person, not a lot goes on here. Some people come in, see one post, and decide to be all "Hey guys, let's completely post an unrelated comment about Azen in this thread."
I mean, I'll keep this alive and give my input any time, I really think these are helpful threads. Just don't give up on this.

Dair's a ridiculously useful move in this matchup. Of all of Lucario's smashes, fsmash is probably the best for this. Not sure about up smash, it might linger and screw up the Wario. I'm actually reconsidering fair as a good move against Wario.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Usmash can mess up Wario's dair approach but it's one of the most unsafe moves Lucci has haha. The fact that it has such poor horizontal range makes it pretty easy for a character like Wario to avoid it, too.

 

[:mad:]

Yeah, but I've also started a pretty odd trend among my friends. I camp with Wario's projectiles, it's pretty funny. Just a useless add-on to this post, lol.

I love what upsmash can do at higher percentages, it can set you up for a bair kill offstage. Wario will be as floaty as possible and make you drop your shield when you least expect an attack. Instead of shielding, randomly jab.

 

[Samuelson]

Fsmash is actually pretty good in this matchup i think. You can catch Wario's landing frames with it since he's pretty much always in the air.

 

[phi1ny3]

Usmash is lol against someone with the horizontal aerial speed like wario's.
Most of the time warios that I've played don't come straight down on you with dair, they nick off at an angle. Don't listen to me about usmash tho, I'm a negative Nancy about that move (why Sakurai, why couldn't you have made it like Marth's!?!)

*cue soap opera chord*

 

[|RK|]

Yeah, if all we Lucarios have in our defense is Azen, then something is seriously wrong. Please stop using that. But yeah, 45:55...

 

[Fizzle]

Fsmash is actually pretty good in this matchup i think. You can catch Wario's landing frames with it since he's pretty much always in the air.

...except it's pretty difficult to punish a good Wario's landing frames since they're so unpredictable. His mobility allows him to bait fsmashes, land behind you, and fsmash you in your startup lag. AS and ftilt are safer alternatives in this matchup.

 

[phi1ny3]

Or the occasional bair, if he does a dair or uair. I've found that even though bair isn't as effective as some of lucario's other bair-reliant matchups, it's still pretty solid in this one. When done right, bair camping is great vs. some of what he tries.

 

[hichez50]

Alright I think this is done 55-45. Lets go to the penguin guy everybody loves. OMG ITS D3

 

[Scinn]

lucario + s-b chaingrab x3 + f smash + aura sphere in that order =win


lucario chain grab = fail without the last two moves from urs truly mr.obvious
*everyone throws rocks at cola* LULZ
I have nothin ta say bout matchups cuz ima nub at that but i do know this
lucario > pikachu

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I had no idea that Lucario had chain grabs.... Force Palm can be ued a couple of times (although not a full chain grab) against big heavy people like Ike, Snake, Dedede (although you'd be an idiot of the highest calibur to try to chaingrab Dedede), Charizard, and Ganondorf, but I didn't know that it would work againt Wario either.....

I don't see Smashes being too useful unless the Wario is at high enough damage to kill him (it's worth risking an aerial if you can get the kill, which might have to be around the 150%), or if you can bait him into eating the smash.

Tilts and the forward/down/neutral aerials are much faster, and aren't quite as easily punished, although if the Wario constantly moves at an angle, you can scoot back a bit, and then the Forward Smash usually goes right up Wario's Mustache. It seems weird that (except for rolling spammers) the Down Smash usually doesn't get much mention at all... And would the UpSmash's large hitbox be safe to use?

And guys? Would it be weird for a Lucario to occasionally substitute the Aura Sphere (fully charged) for the Forward Smash? I know that sounds weird as heck, but I enjoy it, since if the enemy scoot back after realising their move is about to miss, they'd still eat the Aura Sphere, and the damage and knockback isn't too different.... Infact, I've found that the Knock Back from an Aura Sphere hitting an airborn enemy (such as Wario) tends to move him further than the Forward Smash does (again, while he's in the air). Any comments on that?

I haven't seen too many more people disputing it being either a 60-40 or 55-45 for Wario's advantage on us. I don't see him as dangerous as those that really scare me (Marth, Dedede, Game&Watch, ?Olimar?, Wolf), so it's probably either one of those two values, although I'm leaning more towards the 55-45 now.

 

[Samuelson]

...except it's pretty difficult to punish a good Wario's landing frames since they're so unpredictable. His mobility allows him to bait fsmashes, land behind you, and fsmash you in your startup lag. AS and ftilt are safer alternatives in this matchup.

It's honestly not THAT hard.

 

[hichez50]

I feel like all we are doing is restating things that were previously said.

 

[Timbers]

It's honestly not THAT hard.

Compared to the rest of cast, it's pretty **** hard, and the risk/reward ratio is fairly concerning. He has a beast grabrange should he get a shield up before active frames are out (due to a mistime for the Lucario, assuming the Wario fastfell during fsmash startup or something) and has amazing aerial movement to either go in for an fair and knick Lucario to kill active frames. All in all, it's very hard to keep Wario at tipper range. It's very easy for him to weave.

Gonna let this run a few more hours before we move to Dedede.

 

[:mad:]

Because I feel like this topic has more spam than people contributing, I think I'll do a small writeup.

Wario vs. Lucario


Because we're not making a lot of progress.

Now, first of all, this is a 45:55 matchup. Wario's favor.
Lucario suffers a slight disadvantage because of Wario's strange moveset. To start out, this matchup is entriely stage dependant. Wario controls platforms, and due to Lucario not having an answer for this, it's bad for us. We don't have a counter to Wario's platform domination. This match could be entirely dependant on who gets first kill.

The best stages in this situation would have to be Final Destination, Luigi's Mansion, and Pictochat. These stages have limited platforms. Luigi's Mansion might give you trouble due to the large blastzones, but you can work your way around this, since you'll survive until high percentages.

Your biggest asset here is uptilt, fsmash, nair, Aura Sphere, and dair. Wario can combo Lucario into some pretty crazy damage. You need to watch out for his nair, dair, uair, and fsmash. Waft can kill at ridiculously low percentages. In this matchup, it's best to never try to gimp with fair or nair. Focus mainly abusing your ground game, and punishing his mistakes. If you dodge an attack, don't grab, but rather Force Palm.

Aura Sphere in this matchup is essential, a fully charged one can wreck Wario. Always SH an Aura Sphere, or full hop, since he'll approach with an aerial. If he's at higher percentages, feel free to go offstage and dair him.

Advantages;
Better ground game.
Better tilts.
Better projectile.

Disadvantages;
Lucario's mediocre recovery. (In comparison to Wario's, it's still decent.)
Aerial problems.
Lack of kill moves.
Our bad platform control.


Play smart, and try not to airdodge.
​

Quoted for newest page. Let it run for a few more hours?
Let's just post our final thoughts now. If you have anything else to say, do it now.

I'd like to get a quick summary in before it gets too late, Timbers. Feel free to start on Dedede in about an hour and a half.

 

[hichez50]

I find when playing D3 it helps to figure out if the D3 your playing can actually pose a threat with out chain grabbing. If not all you do is be super defensive and wait out the slow painful match.

 

[phi1ny3]

This holds all the info you will need about the matchup vs. King DeDeDededededede, Mario, Wario, and Lucario.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KOlVl77SkQ&feature=related

 

[:mad:]

We're not discussing Dedede yet.
Did you not read?!

I'm hesitant to click that video...
OSHT RICK ROLL.

 

[hichez50]

so true. Lucluclucaariooohhh wario mario.

Edit: Lucairo has a chance mainly because D3 is big
VVVVVVVV

@stracked your comment doesn't add to the conversation. Do you really not like the chez?

 

[:mad:]

so true. Lucluclucaariooohhh wario mario.

I don't like you.
Post something relavant to the conversation, please.

 

[phi1ny3]

We're not discussing Dedede yet.
Did you not read?!

I'm hesitant to click that video...
OSHT RICK ROLL.

You have to admit, it's catchy tho.
On the subject of Wario, just because he has a better recovery doesn't mean it isn't punishable. If you notice, there's a timeframe from where he jumps off his bike where he can't do anything. Punish with AS, dair, etc.
His nair at low %'s is nothing short of a pretty good aerial. Nice push on it, so it's decent on block, combined with his mobility, he won't get punished by it much.
Oh, and I forgot, DACUS shouldn't be too much of a problem, you can SDI usmash, iirc.
Edit:
King Dededededede, King Dedededede-eedede, King Dedeededede-e-e
Mario! Wario! Lucario! Mario! Wario! Lucario! Mario! Wario! Lucario! Mario! Wario! C-c-c-cvnt Lucucario!
I won't get into anymore, watch the vid.

 

[Browny]

go on phil... continue with the rest of the song

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

What does Dacus mean again? I'm not good with all of these anograms. ;.;

I absolutely love the Rick-Roll Video. It's funny. I wanna put it in my signature.

And about the match up, is there honestly anything specific we haven't talked about yet? Wario's Up Aerial is a killer, his forward, down and neutral aerials are awesome at juggling, back aerial is good for knocking back (if I remember what all of his aerials do), forward smash is a killer, fart is a constnatly dangerous threat, bike+upB is a better recovery than ours (although he is vunerable at the point between the length of those two moves), forward B is a good way for him to combo and rack up damage, and most of his other moves aren't even that note-worthy in the fight.

Our Aerials are useful in fighting him, but it's only good if he's infront or behind us, occasionally below us, despite the great kill moves Wario uses from below. Above, Wario is capable of comboing us greatly, although our up tilts and smashes save us while we are on the ground. Our Forward Smash is a good kill move, but if he baits us into using it, we're left vunerable for enough time for the Nazi to work his aerial magic. Forcepalm, Downsmash, and Counter are all un-noteworth (or so it seems, from what I've heard), but if an opening presents itself, go for it. They do leave you incredibly vunerable, though.

And Stage wise, anything with specific platforms that allows Wario to jump down upon us from the sky is going to be bad for us. Disadvantaged Stages=Battlefield, Delfino, Yoshi's Island, Pokemon Stadium. Anywhere that Wario can leap into the air and dive bomb us is not good. Advantaged Stages = Final Destination, Luigi's Mansion (despite being usually banned), Smashville, Picto Chat. Stages that are long and platformless, limiting where he can take control of the platforms is good. Luigi's Mansion is weird that it has lots of platforms, but with most of the air space blocked, and his dive points usually cramped, Wario will have to work harder to perform his air-strikes here.

Again, advantage Wario, still. Am I missing anything?

 

[phi1ny3]

Dacus = Dash Attack Canceled Up Smash
example: Snake dashing.

 

[:mad:]

Snake dashing's the easiest. Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, and Wario have the best, I think. (Besides Snake.)

And, Lucario's safe from anywhere. Keep uptilt in mind. Nice summary, it's a bit shaky, but I like it.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I'd really like to try to move to more characters if we're just about done with Wario.... I just got ***** by Kawaii-Bunny.... she's really good.... but a lot of it comes from me not being good enough.... Dedede was used several times, as was Marth, and Kirby a couple of times, but her best and most dominating matches were using the Ice-Climbers... and I honestly have no idea how to stop any of the 4 of them from chain grabbing me.... I feel insecure in my own skills because of how badly I lost.... and I'd like to learn more about those match ups if it might help me get better....

So is there anything else about Wario? Or can we just slap a 55-45 marker on him and move on to the next character? I'd like it if we made sure we didn't waste any of our time......

 

[:mad:]

Because I feel like this topic has more spam than people contributing, I think I'll do a small writeup.

Wario vs. Lucario


Because we're not making a lot of progress.

Now, first of all, this is a 45:55 matchup. Wario's favor.
Lucario suffers a slight disadvantage because of Wario's strange moveset. To start out, this matchup is entriely stage dependant. Wario controls platforms, and due to Lucario not having an answer for this, it's bad for us. We don't have a counter to Wario's platform domination. This match could be entirely dependant on who gets first kill.

The best stages in this situation would have to be Final Destination, Luigi's Mansion, and Pictochat. These stages have limited platforms. Luigi's Mansion might give you trouble due to the large blastzones, but you can work your way around this, since you'll survive until high percentages.

Your biggest asset here is uptilt, fsmash, nair, Aura Sphere, and dair. Wario can combo Lucario into some pretty crazy damage. You need to watch out for his nair, dair, uair, and fsmash. Waft can kill at ridiculously low percentages. In this matchup, it's best to never try to gimp with fair or nair. Focus mainly abusing your ground game, and punishing his mistakes. If you dodge an attack, don't grab, but rather Force Palm.

Aura Sphere in this matchup is essential, a fully charged one can wreck Wario. Always SH an Aura Sphere, or full hop, since he'll approach with an aerial. If he's at higher percentages, feel free to go offstage and dair him.

Advantages;
Better ground game.
Better tilts.
Better projectile.

Disadvantages;
Lucario's mediocre recovery. (In comparison to Wario's, it's still decent.)
Aerial problems.
Lack of kill moves.
Our bad platform control.


Play smart, and try not to airdodge.
​

-additional quote-

I think we've discussed all there is to this matchup. Dedede's good now.
Wait for the heads up from Timbers. He runs this thing.

 

[Timbers]

Just a heads up, I'm an a*shole and will run this an extra week because I can if people keep complaining about me not moving at their whim. I know what I'm doing, be patient.

Dedede is a go.

 

[:mad:]

I have the exact opposite problem in the Mario boards, few people post, and they just want me to go ahead and do the next move. It's so dead there.

I'll save my next post for the writeup, I'll spend about 10 minutes reading up a little more on Dedede.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

We can talk about Dedede now?

 

[:mad:]

We can talk about Dedede now?

Check the Q&A thread, please.

Spoiler

Yes. -.- Go nuts.

Let's just officially begin on the next page.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

So... what should we say for filler on these pages? I got beat down by a Moderator who used Dedede.... and I think I know a few mistakes I made...

 

[phi1ny3]

Don't listen to "Positive Patrick" Sam, he'll want you to believe the matchup's even, lol jk.
First thing is the CG, obviously an element that plays in this matchup. We have a pseudo CG (he has to be over 25%, and it is with Force Palm CG), but he has the real one in this, which on most neutrals will do 25-35% if done completely, with the occasional ftilt at the end to boot. Spacing is going to be vital, you don't want to settle for anything less than tippered fsmash for killing against this guy. Also, the air is going to be more of your domain, he'll attempt to use utilt when you are at high percents to kill, so be quick on platforms. We can camp him, if you do it right. Waddles are obviously something annoying to work with, so don't try firing from too far a distance, or he will just cancel with a waddle. Try right outside of his ftilt range to fire AS. There is a bit of a blindspot for D3, it's about a 45 degree angle, about two lucarios away from him in the air. Here is where your aerial zoning will take place most of the time. Oh, and d3's spotdodge is amazing, you'll want to use ftilt, FP (since the flame usually nicks them if they spotdodge the grab), AS, jab sometimes (although you'll want to vary when you do each punch, his spotdodge is capable of avoiding all three right after eachother, so that might mean doing A-AA, as opposed to AAA), and pivot grab. Utilt will also prove useful, provided they don't spotdodge.

 

[Timbers]

yes ddd started already. I might murder you if you intentionally spam this thread to start on a new page just sayin'

 

[momochuu]

*Searched her name, lol*

Lucario can juggle Dedede really well, but killing seems to be troublesome. Waddle Dees and CGs also seem annoying.

I dunno, I don't even main Dedede anymore. *poofs*

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Dang.... you beat me to it... I'm honestly so shook up I can't really think of too much more to say in this match up..... I'm just in a state of shock right now though, so I think I'm going to head to bed now..

A few things before I do though... Beware the Inhale move, as a well timed Inhale, and you'll find yourself shot under the stage and unable to recover, even if your extreme-speed is in range of the ledge, due to his gimping. Campy Lucarios who spam Aura Sphere to try to force him to get close (why would you want him close period? Chain Grabs are devistating) will find that the Waddle-Dee throws completely neutralise Aura Sphere, and that if a Goro appears, you're going to be in for a world of hurt. Maybe I'm newbie, but I can't say I found a way to actively stop the Dedede Jump (up+B recovery) in my match against Kawaii. Waiting for it to land and then hitting it usually gets you one of the side stars or crushed, and you can't quite outrange it with your forward smash. And I bit my arm the first time I learned that "Hey! I can't stop the recovery by grabing the ledge and gimping her! The move will kill me instead!". Most Dedede's don't seem to have too much use for the Down Special though, but that's the least of your problems.

On ground, if you aren't spacing perfectly, just put the controller down and await a chain grab. The Forward Tilt will reach you if you aren't in range of the grab anyway, but if you aren't spacing just right, you'll get your butt grabbed easily... You can slightly juggle to around 50% with your up tilt, although after that, a down or neutral aerial is pretty much expected... and the back aerial of Dedede's hits much more than the little kick seems, although the front aerial seems to be a kill move... and the up aerial judges if you try to spam the down kick... Dedede is really good.... this seems to be another disadvantage... or maybe I just stink....

Yes, Kawaii searched her name... she was the one I fought just a few minutes ago.... I got my as s handed to me..... I'm going to go cut myself and go to bed....

 

[phi1ny3]

yes ddd started already. I might murder you if you intentionally spam this thread to start on a new page just sayin'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KOlVl77SkQ&feature=related
This video says that after DeDeDe, we should do Mario next.
just sayin'

Also, Dedede bair is scary good, like gimper-lickin' good. I feel that we can bait it out with relative ease tho, since it doesn't have much in terms of lingering, though if you are under the impression that D3 is as slow as rusting stainless steel, this move is essentially like the combination of 3 good elements: speed, range, and power.
And lol, seems Kawaii is trying out Marth like she said she would on the marth boards. How's it doing, are you really hammering with SH shenanigans?

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I use the Wiimote, and apparently I still can't get the short-hop just right... even her Marth got to chain grab me several times.... I need to properly learn to shorthop, not to rely on my dodges, and most importantly to SPACE LIKE HECK! I was careless, I was stupid, and I was punished for it... expecting a deer to fall over after hearing the gunshot is one thing.... but watching it brutally happen before your eyes is another thing completely.... I was pathetic.... I'm still crying over it.... maybe if I added the nun-chuck, or went back to the cube controller, I might not suck as bad as I did... but still, Kawaii completely outclassed me... she even 3 stocked me a few times... Her Ice-Climbers must be her best though.... I put up better fights against her Marths and Kirbys, her Dededes were gnarly, and her Ice-Climbers beat me so bad, I almost considered pulling out my Metaknight to counter it... but I'd be the same as everyone else who uses him just for bad match ups.... that's how badly I was being beaten.... I'm crying again... so I'm going to bed....

Btw, if you can try to air dodge and move away from the up aerial, your down aerial becomes much better against Dedede... but it's not recommended to go straight down... Dedede seems good in all 8 dirrections except up left of himself and up right of himself... those seem to be the safest attack zones...

 

[Timbers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KOlVl77SkQ&feature=related
This video says that after DeDeDe, we should do Mario next.
just sayin'

Also, Dedede bair is scary good, like gimper-lickin' good. I feel that we can bait it out with relative ease tho, since it doesn't have much in terms of lingering, though if you are under the impression that D3 is as slow as rusting stainless steel, this move is essentially like the combination of 3 good elements: speed, range, and power.
And lol, seems Kawaii is trying out Marth like she said she would on the marth boards. How's it doing, are you really hammering with SH shenanigans?

lucaluclucario

Bair tends to be a move you should worry about when being edgeguarded, don't expect it onstage often, really. It does make DDD pretty vulnerable should someone get in on him, and the landing lag is pretty bad. Just make sure you don't use your midair stupidly and you should be fine in terms of gimping. Just DI the hits and you'll be able to get back to the stage pretty easily.

 

[phi1ny3]

Still tho, knowing that it gives so much hurt offstage makes CG go from the raw 25-35% to potentially 60% with a good guarding D3.
Oh, and Gordo hurts, like KO potentially under 100% hurts.
btw, is there a direction you need to do to SDI D3 dair/uair? Which way?