SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[Timbers]

I would feel weird grouping ZSS with Wario and DK in the "small disadvantages" group.

 

[cba]

Actually, its in Lucarios favor.
oddly.

 

[Snakeee]

I can see it at even, although it looks more like a very slight advantage for ZSS. But, not much at all, and since we're both arguing about it a bit here you should just have it as even for now. That's what the average person seems to think about it anyway.

 

[ksizl4life]

I can see it at even, although it looks more like a very slight advantage for ZSS. But, not much at all, and since we're both arguing about it a bit here you should just have it as even for now. That's what the average person seems to think about it anyway.

we need to mm, friendly, or play in tourney alot more so we can both analyze this matchup XD

 

[Samuelson]

I think the matchup is pretty even but ZSS has a very slight edge. Ive always felt this way but i kind of suck against ZSS. I would say it's 51:49 in Zero Suits favor!

 

[Browny]

She can punish the fsmash easily. A smart ZSS won't just run into one, knowing about it's power and reac (not to mention your current aura strength)...

if you shield lucarios fsmash, you cant punish it unless you frame-perfect drop shield to avoid the lingering hitbox and dash attack. perfect shielding it is irrelevant, you can PS-> punish everything in this game. its a very safe move in general, unless you predict it an SH side b or something you wont punish it. however again, that cant be considered since lucario can predict that move and use AS instead. mindgames arent considered in matchups...

Dair is on the same boat, too. A smart ZSS will be more than willing to stay away from under you while you're in an offensive approach, or defensive retreat...

"Remember that her uair is immensely fast, and she can combo you with it while you're hitstunned from a previous one (if she does it fast enough), making it incredibly hard landing a dair/fair/nair to shake her off when attempting to momentum cancel."


Proving my point about Lucarios answers to an extent...

 

[Timbers]

ZSS has no reason to ever be in Luc's fsmash tipper range. She'll either be out of it and pressuring with sideB or in close and harassing your lack of fast moves.

So she has the capability to easily outspeed and outrange you. I'm definitely against using fsmash in this matchup unless absolutely necessarly (as eating the 15% or whatever from sideB for getting read even once is not to my liking)

 

[phi1ny3]

K, so I looked up some matches and such and analyzed zamus' stuff, and I can say with confidence that on paper and arguably actual play lucario has the advantage (but it's 55:45). Zss looks like some highly potent play, but lucario has more stage flexibility imo and better tools (although zss has a crap load of aerial +anti game). However, it's really all a matter of who is using their shield more effectively, and how well they can utilize the extent of properties available to them with AS, stun attacks, aerials, and tilts.

 

[Kewkky]

"Remember that her uair is immensely fast, and she can combo you with it while you're hitstunned from a previous one (if she does it fast enough), making it incredibly hard landing a dair/fair/nair to shake her off when attempting to momentum cancel."

Yep... Remember that we're good at stringing hits, but approaching you while you're aerial is not a smart choice. That's what I meant.

And why stop saying the offstage dsmash? Even if people know it's there, it doesn't stop them from falling into one every once in a while... Like DK's Cargo Spike, Snake's dthrow>reverse fsmash, IC's grabs, Kirby's combo... All I'm doing is reminding that it's there, and is barely situational (we can do it when we want to, and it's easy to do).

Even is still good for me.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yep... Remember that we're good at stringing hits, but approaching you while you're aerial is not a smart choice. That's what I meant.

And why stop saying the offstage dsmash? Even if people know it's there, it doesn't stop them from falling into one every once in a while... Like DK's Cargo Spike, Snake's dthrow>reverse fsmash, IC's grabs, Kirby's combo... All I'm doing is reminding that it's there, and is barely situational (we can do it when we want to, and it's easy to do).

Even is still good for me.

lol some of your examples are MUCH more situational than others, it's like saying Kirby Ninja spike is a matchup factor worth changing the number. That's also pretty much like me saying that "DT is something to consider" in a matchup, if it happens once and awhile and has a way out, it's only worth going briefly into, not often.

 

[Kewkky]

lol some of your examples are MUCH more situational than others, it's like saying Kirby Ninja spike is a matchup factor worth changing the number. That's also pretty much like me saying that "DT is something to consider" in a matchup, if it happens once and awhile and has a way out, it's only worth going briefly into, not often.

... Or, do like I'm doing, and remind them that they should return from offstage in a safe manner, or else they'll get punished... Except that I'm mentioning the nastiest punishment at low %s: flipkick spikes... Which, if we DO stun you offstage, all we have to do is drop off, reverse downB, and press any button and it's "Helloooo, spike". So, I'm still emphasizing that (even though they already do, it's important they should know how risky it is for them) Lucarios should be wary of how they return to the stage. One wrong move, and it's a dsmash>dropoff>spike.

That's all.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

If you're stupid enough to get hit with a dsmash offstage you deserve losing that stock.
If you're at all competent you're not going to anywhere close to often enough to where it would be considered a factor in a matchup discussion.

Now drop it.

 

[Kewkky]

If you're stupid enough to get hit with a dsmash offstage you deserve losing that stock.
If you're at all competent you're not going to anywhere close to often enough to where it would be considered a factor in a matchup discussion.

The same thing's also said about IC's grabs. If you get grabbed, you deserve to lose the stock, I guess, right? Plus, matchup discussions aren't about player skills, they're about CHARACTER skills... One of the things people have been saying (and telling ME) over and over again. If it WERE about player skill, every player would be arguing for a change in the MU's, on the count of we all have an opponent with more experience than other people (like me vs falco)... The fact that you can evade something 100% of the time (not saying you're able to, because you're not perfect) doesn't mean other people can't.

Your character doesn't evade the attack, YOU evade the attack. Now YOU drop it.

[/end_discussion_not_going_to_reply_about_it_anymore]

 

[Timbers]

ok

1) kewkky is right

2) Mentioning the dsmash isn't matchup breaking but it's worth noting that ZSS has tools to harass you while recovering (sideB, uair, and bair do this to a greater extent though)

3) Dsmash also encourages/threatens Lucarios to recover more precisely. Luc has that huge sweetspot so people tend to not really care where they aim his ES so long as it's within sweetspot range. Doing so against a character like ZSS you can actually get dsmashed before you reach the sweetspot while still being low enough to be bair stagespiked. Same applies to if you're only just your midair to recover back to the ledge. It also pretty much tells the Lucario player that ledgehopping anything in this matchup is extremely risky and they should take more passive measures for recovering back to the stage.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I'm happy as long as you stop talking about it in every post you make.

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

I'm sorry for not bothering to read this thread (I could swear I'm getting lazier). From my experience, this matchup is to Lucario's advantage. ZSS always want's her opponents above her for the U-air juggle, but our
D-air it makes it a lot tougher for her. From below, ZSS isn't too tough to handle because she has 2 options (Down-B or dodge).

On the ground, wiggly isn't a lot of trouble for me, as long as you don't get suckered into a mindgame (which you will ), it's pretty avoidable.

In the air, Lucario has priority and range if I'm not mistaken; just watch out for that down-b kick.

60:40 Lucario's adv.

edit: revised. thanks to snakeee for the correction (and for being everyone's favorite ZSS player.....because there are sooooo many <- sarcasm)

 

[Snakeee]

I'm sorry for not bothering to read this thread (I could swear I'm getting lazier). From my experience, this matchup is to Lucario's advantage. ZSS always want's her opponents above her for the U-air juggle, but our
D-air outrages it!

No it doesn't

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

Revised. Btw you (and everyone else in North America) should come to the MIB tourney in August. It should=3 days of greatness. Come Midwestern Lucarios!
I'm still for 60:40

 

[Kitamerby]

I've just been wondering, but is camping really the best way to approach the ZSS matchup? From what I've heard/seen, it seems as though ZSS has a problem with pressure, and SideB can harass us if we spam AS predictably, but it seems as though our Fair pretty much ***** her approaches, her defenses, and just plain makes her life hell in general, so why isn't there more talk of pressuring her rather than camping her? Because it doesn't seem like camping does too well due to Lucario's options usually being grounded, as well as having a bit of commitment time in which he's stuck in one place, meaning that she probably would be able to short hop over and SideB/Bair Luc in the face...

 

[Kewkky]

I've just been wondering, but is camping really the best way to approach the ZSS matchup? From what I've heard/seen, it seems as though ZSS has a problem with pressure, and SideB can harass us if we spam AS predictably, but it seems as though our Fair pretty much ***** her approaches, her defenses, and just plain makes her life hell in general, so why isn't there more talk of pressuring her rather than camping her? Because it doesn't seem like camping does too well due to Lucario's options usually being grounded, as well as having a bit of commitment time in which he's stuck in one place, meaning that she probably would be able to short hop over and SideB/Bair Luc in the face...

because if you make a single mistake or get too predictable up-close, we'll counter you with either out-of-shield options, or space your fairs with our sideB's (which has more range than your fair)... Imagine the scenario, you're approaching with a fair, and we're retreating with a sideB. The sideB will hit you, the fair won't hit us.

 

[Kitamerby]

because if you make a single mistake or get too predictable up-close, we'll counter you with either out-of-shield options, or space your fairs with our sideB's (which has more range than your fair)... Imagine the scenario, you're approaching with a fair, and we're retreating with a sideB. The sideB will hit you, the fair won't hit us.

Are ZSS's oos options that great? I thought her utilt was too short-ranged, her uair doesn't hit anyone (cept maybe Ganon), her grab is lol, and her jabs are meh? She can't use any aerials oos because of her high short hop, and thus I'd imagine would have to "suffer" the extra 7 or so frames of shield-drop time? Also, her sideB is rather slow, isn't it? It also has that dead zone, and absolutely no coverage below her? I was sorta thinking we could just short hop fair her as she tries that, as it is rather slow to perform a retreating SideB? Can she even retreat it that well? I honestly have not played a ZSS in awhile, but I still can't really think of any answer she would have to it other than predicting it and doing a retreating SideB early, which would be punishable in its own right, and I'm honestly not sure if that would even work...

 

[Kewkky]

Are ZSS's oos options that great? I thought her utilt was too short-ranged, her uair doesn't hit anyone (cept maybe Ganon), her grab is lol, and her jabs are meh? She can't use any aerials oos because of her high short hop, and thus I'd imagine would have to "suffer" the extra 7 or so frames of shield-drop time? Also, her sideB is rather slow, isn't it? It also has that dead zone, and absolutely no coverage below her? I was sorta thinking we could just short hop fair her as she tries that, or simply airdodge to dair her in her commitment time of SideB? Can she even retreat it that well? I honestly have not played a ZSS in awhile, but I still can't really think of any answer she would have to it other than predicting it and doing a retreating SideB early, which would be punishable in its own right, and I'm honestly not sure if that would even work...

OoS utilts are great when ZSS shields (preferably powershields) almost any aerial, since you're still lagging and we're free to do as we please for a couple of frames. And her sideB isn't the only option she has against things like offensive games, it's just the BEST spacing option, the one that gives her the less risks.

Following her when she retreats while doing a sideB is difficult. Her 2nd hitbox covers quite a decent range, and any ZSS user will make sure to space it right (since Lucario's not the only one with the ability to punish bad spacing). Plus, she won't be doing that ALL the time, that's just begging her to be predictable, and allowing you to learn how to bypass that! If the sideB's overused, we'll mix in different things (like paralyzer), or probably airdodge around you/downB over you and attack you from behind.

 

[phi1ny3]

*Watches some Kewkky vids vs. Lucario*
No wonder you see lucario as easy, your opponents are pretty predictable (especially thinking they can land bthrow-> AS on lighter chars, it's not even that great for pressure). AS is more of a pressure move that ***** AD, roll, spotdodge, and the air overall, it's not always great for damage opportunity on The ground, but the reward of it being slow combined with good shield stun means that lucario has a good "cover fire" strategy with it if they don't PS it aka they become very predictable. Tell your friends to start pocketing their AS more often, it’s not all that great as a camping tool (although BAS is still pretty good for those lucario can outcamp). Tell them also to do less near the edge vs. Kirby, unless they want to be gimped more often.

 

[TLMSheikant]

^^ oh please. That vid is old as hell. That was my lucario i didnt even main him and its old as heck so of course the ones playing are noobs :S.

EDIT: Against kirby? that wasnt me then. my vid was against kewk's zss. It was hyper's lucario. Still old lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

lolwut? Jan. is still relatively new, but it doesn't matter the char, it matters what impressions a person gets because of it. It's like how marios thought the matchup vs. marth was 50:50 because they watched Kadaj vs. a good mario (can't remember whether it was Boss or not), but even Kadaj (and most of the marths) said that he didn't play the match right, and left himself open. Are you S@nT? Just out of curiosity.

 

[Popertop]

matchups are to be taken at the highest level, not "i beat my neighbors ZSS this matchup is easy"

 

[Browny]

Thank you for gracing our thread with your words of wisdom

now back to real, meaningful posts and discussion!

 

[Nubsta5]

In my opinion, I find this matchup extremely even, and possibly even slightly in ZSS's favor.

Dair (Lucario's): Yes, it can shut down character's attacks from below, but most ZSSs I know use up B against someone in the air, and that has a lot more range than dair as well as more hits to parry dair's 2 (specials parry with aerials). It's an amazing anti-dair option, but not always the smartest idea if improperly spaced.

Aura Boost?: Not really too effective against ZSS, imo. She can rack damage easily and kill just as easily. Her uair and bair are super fast, and are extremely effective against Lucario's slow-to-start air dodge, and both kill rather early (~85-100ish). Also, she can setup kills very easily, too, due to the stun gun, down smash, and the ability to bait air dodges.

"Oh, but Zamus can be gimped easily...": Not really. Sure, she has a tether recovery, but she's extremely floaty, and Lucario doesn't have many sideways-hitting moves (like Fox/Falco's dsmash) to force an actual recovery. Even if she is forced to recover, she has the 3rd(?) best double jump in the game, and down B to assist it, as well as having superb range on her tether. Up B can also assist upward movement if down B was already used (non-ledge-grabbed up B).

Now, I'm not trying to say that Zamus is impossible to fight, because anyone can really win with (almost) any character. But, she has a lot more options OoS, in the air, on top of having better damage racking and she has quite a few reliable kill moves.

What does Lucario have on her? I'd have to go with a better projectile, for one, but he also has good combo ability, and gimping capability due to fair, although if you get read on a fair gimp, a down B spike could be heading your way >_> (Claw has done this a lot to me, lol). The priority of aura can be a good shut down against her as well, but I wouldn't say that rushing her is a good idea, due to her OoS options. She has a hard time defensively in the air, as well, and is extremely vulnerable to getting airdodges baited.

I'd have to say our best kill options on her would be bair, uair, nair, and fair (gimping possibility). Our smashes are just too slow to be reliable against her, imo. And I personally just love using nair for like... everything.

50:50 from me.

/bespreparedforflaming

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

You're doing something wrong on an epic level if you're dying to bairs and uairs in the 85-100 range...

 

[Aurasmash14]

you dont know how to reduce your knockback yet do you? Lucario's are supposed to be A-ok at percentages where other characters of his weight would have despaired.

 

[Kewkky]

lolwut? Jan. is still relatively new, but it doesn't matter the char, it matters what impressions a person gets because of it. It's like how marios thought the matchup vs. marth was 50:50 because they watched Kadaj vs. a good mario (can't remember whether it was Boss or not), but even Kadaj (and most of the marths) said that he didn't play the match right, and left himself open. Are you S@nT? Just out of curiosity.

Yeah, the vids are oooold. Now we do a buttload better than before, and Hyper started hanging out with us in order to start doing better at tourneys (we plus a couple of other people always took the top spots). My kirby is way more evil than in those videos now, and I don't rush as much now. And, his Lucario has come a long way too, he's now not as easily predictable as before (although he keeps rolling from the ledge onto the stage... yeahhh). Don't take those vids as examples of our current playability, please, they're 4 months old, at least!

And yes, S@nT is Sheikant. ::looks at his signature::

 

[phi1ny3]

You're doing something wrong on an epic level if you're dying to bairs and uairs in the 85-100 range...

That's what some marths like to call "Reno DI" lol
(stereotype that no longer applies is funny)

 

[R3N0]

what the eff is reno di.

 

[Vionce]

what the eff is reno di.

sounds like it could be referring to Reno from Advent Children because in the fight scenes he gets knocked back very far away.

 

[phi1ny3]

Reffering to the Reno, California area when they still didn't do great at DI and people would die from zamus sideB in the 60's lol. Doesn't really apply, they've gotten loads better, but the F.O.S. kind of stuck.

 

[IrisKong]

Michigan DI= Way better

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

IMO i played a little of Z-suit i think she has a tad bit of range on us while lacking the power and punch that we have. shes light weight and makes for an easy KO, but she has some combo abilities using her D-smash and N-B to set you up. id also like to state we are quite capable of keeping people in our paws as well with our hit-stunning moves, (sorry for tossing a little biased in here trying to keep it as middle as possible) i think we have the better air game, and ZSS and Luca are tied for gournd game if not also given to luca, i think 55/45 or 6/4 lucarios favor

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can we just call this 50:50, I'm hearing everything from 60:40 ZSS to 60:40 Lucario.

 

[Timbers]

I want to finish this up but there seems to be a huge conflict on numbers right now.

Perhaps you guys can give your final opinions on this match up as we wrap this up?

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

err i guess i can agree on 5/5, a numbers a number XD the better player knows what to do and how to do it