Should Smash consider women-only tournaments? Clear numbers say its great for community growth.

[Raijinken]

If your scene has the playerbase to target a tournament at a specific demographic, by all means, go for it. Most scenes have neither the playerbase, time, nor venue availability to splinter off further under the pretext of inclusion through special focus. It's an unnecessary consideration in the views of most male and female gamers I know, but it's not "bad" necessarily.

Maybe a side event if your local scene has the interest, but gender exclusivism is not hard-wired into any modern game tournament that I myself am aware of.

 

[wizrad]

"Give us free entry because we lack penises"

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Doesn't seem to lean in the direction of "equality" for me.

It's not about equality in that sense. It's about trying to get a group of people who aren't involved (for whatever reasons) into the scene, and welcoming them. Half of the world is female, but tournaments are entirely male dominated. And, let's be real, lots of tournament goers would really be better off if they encountered a girl in real life.

 

[Zenithia]

I don't see the need for an all women tournament. If we want women in the community, we should try something like this. If they want to join, let them. If not, then it's going to be alright.

Now, I still think we should hold #waifuwars tournaments

The waifus are the only way to rid this world of discrimination.

But seriously, I think one of the only reasons why this is a big issue is because people keep trying to make it as such. I go to my school's Smash Club every Friday and no guy there has ever mentioned anything about me being a girl. Same for all the other girls there, too.

I also stand by my point that women and men need to get used to each other rather than being segregated. The more we interact with one another, the more we know about them. The more we know about them, the less we assume they're a certain way. Assumption is the very root of all prejudice and stereotypes, and integration is the only way to get rid of it.

 

[wizrad]

Yes yes, your point is very good and all, but the issue is not that there is discrimination, but rather that that integration you speak of simply isn't happening.

 

[Zenithia]

Yes yes, your point is very good and all, but the issue is not that there is discrimination, but rather that that integration you speak of simply isn't happening.

It isn't happening because we're too afraid to go out there and socialize with different groups of people. We can't be frightened to do that, or we'll all just create more ridiculous generalizations about others.

That's why the women-only tournaments aren't a good idea, imo. They encourage the thought of being fearful when having courage is what is really necessary.

 

[wizrad]

You shouldn't have to have courage to go to a tournament, if that's what you're saying. I agree that women only tourneys wouldn't help, though.

 

[Thinkaman]

The thing that continuously bugs me about this thread every time I view the Competitive Discussion thread listing is that it promised clear numbers--and then there are no numbers. (Except one, which was entirely made up.)

I like numbers.

 

[Zenithia]

You shouldn't have to have courage to go to a tournament, if that's what you're saying. I agree that women only tourneys wouldn't help, though.

I meant courage in general, actually. Though I do suppose there is some level of it involved in going to one. I'm too scared—not because of guys, but because of the fact that everyone is so much better than me.

 

[Champ Gold]

I ask the question of this:


Who does this idea benefit more; the women who the tournament is designed for? Or the men who want this? Or even the community as a whole to be more inclusive.


@Wintropy put it in the best way possible. The concept is nice and all but the execution will be awful because it supports segregation moreso than inclusion.


I rather for people to show how the Smash community isn't as exclusive as it seems. Female Smash players exist but you have to make not moreso of a Safe Space for them but to where it isn't an awful place to be around.

A lot of people have been trying to push this idea for women in the FGC and at most a lot of them just say:

"If you're a female and want to play X, just come on in and play. We don't need women based leagues or divisions"

This ain't sports where it's more of size, strength and just overall how different it is from structure of the human male & female, these are video games that an be played by anyone gender, race and etc.

 

[deepseadiva]

The thing that continuously bugs me about this thread every time I view the Competitive Discussion thread listing is that it promised clear numbers--and then there are no numbers. (Except one, which was entirely made up.)

I like numbers.

Working on it! I'm doing some personal data mining but would love some help if I could PM you.

I could post the attendance numbers for Women's Chess and the prize winnings (which is the clear success the title is in reference to), but Smash has zero collected data it seems, at the moment.

 

[LightLV]

Here's the thing, these girl gamers are seldom capable of participating in tournaments without being harangued by some form of harassment. Most are assaulted by the male gaze, and can barely hang on to their controllers when their opponent's knee is manspreading into their safe space. These women are goddesses, so when you point out that literally all of them are using Kirby you are denying them their goddess truth. Not to mention Bowser's d-throw can be very triggering. I think subjugating them to female-only environments is the only way to protect them from you mad apes.

Haha, well, that took longer than i thought it would.

And that makes his argument mean nothing? He has a good point, why should people be getting any special treatment for their gender?

Yeah, it does, and no, he made a terrible point. Instead of offering solutions to a problem, he just kind assumes, in a sarcastic manner, that the thread topic is silly, because we're discussing solutions to a problem that doesn't exist, or doesn't need fixing. He's exactly the type of person I mentioned in a previous post, who can only serve to make any discussion worse.

I mean I could be wrong about that, and @RK Joker might have jumped the gun labling him as a gamergate psycho....but lets be honest.....

You're right. To avoid being exclusionary, we should have female-only tournaments. Let's segregate the genders, you know, because that's what feminism is about, right?

.....He was probably accurate.

I don't understand how him saying women should not be treated special is anti-feminist, that is just being fair. How does not treating a woman like they are special keep women from gaming? Maybe the main thing keeping women from gaming is that most are not interested in gaming?

It's being fair...if you decide to ignore common sense observations, which im not going to bother outlining, because you have access to google just like I do. And as a gamer this should be one of the easiest social issues to acquaint yourself with.

Plenty of people have voiced the opinion that "special treatment" in the form of a female-only tournament probably isn't the best of ideas, myself included. But nobody has managed to sound off putting and bitter until he graced us with that beautiful post.

 

[wizrad]

I'm actually somewhat surprised that we haven't encountered any meninist bull here. That crap is rampant at my school.

Edit: lol nvm missed that post right above me.

 

[FallenHero]

I'm actually somewhat surprised that we haven't encountered any meninist bull here. That crap is rampant at my school.

Edit: lol nvm missed that post right above me.

Meninism should be taken as a joke or as satire, most people who identify as a "meninist" are either joking or are just plain stupid for taking it seriously. There are many issues that men face that women don't, but there are certainly not enough to create a whole movement over, and there are not enough issues women face in the first world for feminism to still be trying to get things like "safe space" or complain about "manspreading".

Yes yes, your point is very good and all, but the issue is not that there is discrimination, but rather that that integration you speak of simply isn't happening.

I agree, I feel that this would need to be integrated differently if this is going to help at all. I know that the point of this is not to create some sort of separate league for women, but this could just end up creating that or at least something similar.

Just curious, how many guys here would feel a bit uncomfortable walking into a tournament to find that they're the only man there? I mean I know where you guys are coming from with the 'why should women get special treatment' idea, because that was kind of my first reaction too. But surely you can see where we're coming from too without resorting to sarcasm and gamergate-esque rhetoric to prove your point...

Also yes I use all female characters lol. I almost always do in fighting games. And when Smash 4 has such an amazing female roster <3 then why wouldn't I? :v

Hmm, good point....If they do have female only tournaments, I feel they should be done only once or twice a month at a local to encourage players to go to the regular tournaments and maybe use some other methods along with that as encouragement to go to the regular tournaments.

 

[Zenithia]

I think one way to approach this issue is to encourage women to go into tournaments more. Kind of like how Google is encouraging girls to go into engineering and stuff.

 

[Pazx]

I think one way to approach this issue is to encourage women to go into tournaments more. Kind of like how Google is encouraging girls to go into engineering and stuff.

That is exactly what this thread is about. How can we encourage women to go to tournaments? "Hey, maybe female-only tournaments would be a good way to do that!"

 

[FallenHero]

That is exactly what this thread is about. How can we encourage women to go to tournaments? "Hey, maybe female-only tournaments would be a good way to do that!"

I think it would be better to discuss how it should be executed so that it doesn't end up doing little to nothing or making things worse.

 

[S_B]

What are the statistics of female players playing other fighting games, out of curiosity?

 

[Darknid]

Yeah, it does, and no, he made a terrible point. Instead of offering solutions to a problem, he just kind assumes, in a sarcastic manner, that the thread topic is silly, because we're discussing solutions to a problem that doesn't exist, or doesn't need fixing. He's exactly the type of person I mentioned in a previous post, who can only serve to make any discussion worse.

This thread was not made to discuss solutions for the problem, it was made to propose one specific solution which was indeed a silly one. So the assumption is yours, about my motive for pointing out that this solution is silly.

I mean I could be wrong about that, and @RK Joker might have jumped the gun labling him as a gamergate psycho....but lets be honest.....


.....He was probably accurate.

So in the text you quoted I pointed out the irony in calling me anti-feminist for making fun of a tacitly un-feminist solution, and now you're continuing to do so.

Btw I really didn't pay attention to gamer gate. I was out of the scene at the time. So I don't even know what you're calling me.

 

[LightLV]

This thread was not made to discuss solutions for the problem, it was made to propose one specific solution which was indeed a silly one. So the assumption is yours, about my motive for pointing out that this solution is silly.

The topic of the post is irrelevant in regards to what you decided to post, which immediately derailed the thread and added nothing to the discussion. So it's a fair assumption to make. Especially when it's a common reaction to threads like this.

It's like walking into a character discussion forum and telling everyone that the character is garbage and should be dropped. Not perfectly analogous, but you get the issue im sure.

So in the text you quoted I pointed out the irony in calling me anti-feminist for making fun of a tacitly un-feminist solution, and now you're continuing to do so.

It's a funny observation to make as a joke, but when expressed as a serious opinion, it just exposes a severe lack of understanding. To suggest that action to ultimately make tournaments more inclusive is "un-feminist" is just to show how shallow your understanding is.

Again, yeah, a female-only tournament sounds cringeworthy and probably wont help anything. But come on.

Meninism should be taken as a joke or as satire, most people who identify as a "meninist" are either joking or are just plain stupid for taking it seriously. There are many issues that men face that women don't, but there are certainly not enough to create a whole movement over, and there are not enough issues women face in the first world for feminism to still be trying to get things like "safe space" or complain about "manspreading".

I don't think Darknid was being "Meninist". He was just posting with the same type of rhetoric that "meninist" identifiers would use.

And i think you are severely underestimating the amount of plain stupid on this planet lol

 

[deepseadiva]

What are the statistics of female players playing other fighting games, out of curiosity?

I'm similarly curious. The study of women in gaming is a relatively fresh topic, so I'm not surprised if we don't find a lot of data.

Genesis 3 is tomorrow, isn't? I wonder if we can do a basic head count. And then a look at the top 32 or top 100. Spoiler: no women.

 

[S_B]

I'm similarly curious. The study of women in gaming is a relatively fresh topic, so I'm not surprised if we don't find a lot of data.

Women represent I believe 40+% of all gamers at this point (and somewhere around the same in pornography consumption, I hear), so it's not that there aren't as many female gamers, just not that many interested in SSB.

I would reject the idea of having a female only tournament because there's no basis for it. In men's sports it can make sense because men grow larger and stronger on average (though there ARE women who grow to the same size and strength so even that isn't a hard and fast rule).

But for gaming, human beings are reduced to fingers attached to brains attached to eyes. Nothing else matters, so the only reason we don't see more female SSB players, I'd have to conclude, would simply be a lack of interest.

...or do female gamers not feel safe going to male-dominated tournaments for some reason?

 

[LightLV]

I think any gender feels intimidated going to any opposite gender dominated event.

Safety is an issue for things like conventions, where girls commonly get groped in their outfits, but i doubt safety is an issue for gaming tournaments.

 

[wizrad]

I agree, I feel that this would need to be integrated differently if this is going to help at all. I know that the point of this is not to create some sort of separate league for women, but this could just end up creating that or at least something similar.

Slippery slope fallacy. In fact, given the conservativeness of most TOs, if a ladies' night is introduced, it would never change even if the community wanted it.

 

[Darknid]

The topic of the post is irrelevant in regards to what you decided to post, which immediately derailed the thread and added nothing to the discussion. So it's a fair assumption to make. Especially when it's a common reaction to threads like this.

It's like walking into a character discussion forum and telling everyone that the character is garbage and should be dropped. Not perfectly analogous, but you get the issue im sure.

The thread literally asks whether we should have all-female tournaments or not. I say no. I was entirely on topic. So it's more like going to a character suggestion thread and saying "no, that character wouldn't work."

It's a funny observation to make as a joke, but when expressed as a serious opinion, it just exposes a severe lack of understanding. To suggest that action to ultimately make tournaments more inclusive is "un-feminist" is just to show how shallow your understanding is.

The intention of the action is inclusiveness. The action itself purely excludes people. That's the premise of the irony. I said excluding men is un-feminist and if you don't get why that's true then it's you who lacks understanding. I'd say it's a fair point to make.

 

[S_B]

I think any gender feels intimidated going to any opposite gender dominated event.

Eh, not really the same thing.

If there was a tournament that primarily featured female participants, I wouldn't feel in danger of being sexually assaulted or anything of the kind.

But for a woman, it's a different story, and not because "men are men" but because you never really know if there will be one or two guys there that don't take kindly to losing to a woman at anything.

As I mentioned earlier, any half-way enlightened individual would see it as fingers and brains, and the sort of flesh-encasement those fingers and brains are housed in is entirely irrelevant (which is also a pretty good way to view humanity on the whole).

But there are guys out there that have been taught that women are weak and that there's nothing worse than losing to one, and that's the kind of player women wouldn't want to compete against because it's no longer a game but a full blown insult to their manhood at that point.

I've never personally seen any player like that, but the fear of coming up against one could definitely be valid.

 

[LightLV]

The thread literally asks whether we should have all-female tournaments or not. I say no.

Yeah except you didn't, you implied no through a flippant response, and you got the expected reaction. But whatever.

The intention of the action is inclusiveness. The action itself purely excludes people. That's the premise of the irony. I said excluding men is un-feminist and if you don't get why that's true then it's you who lacks understanding. I'd say it's a fair point to make.

Again, it's funny to point out its irony, but if you honestly think it's a fair point to make, my criticism stands; your understanding is shallow. Saying this specific case of adding inclusiveness by "excluding" something is contradictory is like a child asking how a man stranded at sea could die of thirst. You seem to be more hooked on the absence of males than anything else.

I don't think it's going to work, but not because of how we define the words "inclusive" and "exclusive".

Eh, not really the same thing.

If there was a tournament that primarily featured female participants, I wouldn't feel in danger of being sexually assaulted or anything of the kind.

But for a woman, it's a different story, and not because "men are men" but because you never really know if there will be one or two guys there that don't take kindly to losing to a woman at anything.

I was talking in a more general sense, because i dont really believe gaming tournaments are a sexual or physical assault risk. Harassment is a bit different, but i don't expect a guy will assault a girl for losing anymore than he would risk assaulting a guy.

Verbal harassment is another thing, but this is something that has to be community moderated, because yeah it can (and does) affect everyone.

But there are guys out there that have been taught that women are weak and that there's nothing worse than losing to one, and that's the kind of player women wouldn't want to compete against because it's no longer a game but a full blown insult to their manhood at that point.

I've never personally seen any player like that, but the fear of coming up against one could definitely be valid.

this is a thing, but theres nothing much to do about that preemptively. And again, anyone with self esteem that fragile would probably blow alot of hot air but wouldn't be much of a risk to anyone, and also be prone to be made a joke of. Which should happen to people like that.

 

[S_B]

this is a thing, but theres nothing much to do about that preemptively. And again, anyone with self esteem that fragile would probably blow alot of hot air but wouldn't be much of a risk to anyone, and also be prone to be made a joke of. Which should happen to people like that.

Yeah, this is true.

Unless we're talking about a man who is a horrendous misogynist but has no problem with other men, his toxic personality has probably come to light already.

I've SEEN female players at all the tournaments I've been to, they're just a stark minority.

 

[telex]

Hmm, good point....If they do have female only tournaments, I feel they should be done only once or twice a month at a local to encourage players to go to the regular tournaments and maybe use some other methods along with that as encouragement to go to the regular tournaments.

i agree! i'd never ever advocate for the total division of the sexes in smash. that's totally absurd. just a little encouragement is all i'd be looking for :v

 

[ChikiLucario]

It's not about equality in that sense. It's about trying to get a group of people who aren't involved (for whatever reasons) into the scene, and welcoming them. Half of the world is female, but tournaments are entirely male dominated. And, let's be real, lots of tournament goers would really be better off if they encountered a girl in real life.

I don't really know what you're implying by saying that, that could be interpreted in so many ways, but I take it as "Man, those males, they don't even know what it's like to even see a female, and they're really missing out! Like, their life is not complete until they SEE one of us!! The only females they've ever seen is their mother."

Half the world is female... Yes. Good point. But everything in life will be dominated by some demographic. However, this isn't "everything in life," and expanding the demographic would be definitely positive.

Make no mistake, I do agree that just getting people involved is really good. The smash community, I'd imagine, is so welcoming, so at a certain point it's just a matter of getting a friend to cling to and make sure nobody does anything out of line. I've never been to a tournament, so this'd be a must for me personally. (The first smash tournament I'll ever go to, I'll be accompanied by at least one friend that I know VERY well, and can trust, because I'm also really standoffish when it comes to doing anything outside my comfort zone.)

That being said, I do like a bit of trashtalk, but I doubt EVERYBODY likes it, there's no way to know before you say "AWGH MAN I'M GON' REK YA M8!!" that someone will take it personally.

TL;DR I agree with the sentiment of getting people involved, but there's a certain point where, like most things in life, ya just gotta bite the bullet and say "Okay I'm going to do this now" and attend with some company.

 

[wizrad]

I don't really know what you're implying by saying that, that could be interpreted in so many ways, but I take it as "Man, those males, they don't even know what it's like to even see a female, and they're really missing out! Like, their life is not complete until they SEE one of us!! The only females they've ever seen is their mother."

Half the world is female... Yes. Good point. But everything in life will be dominated by some demographic. However, this isn't "everything in life," and expanding the demographic would be definitely positive.

Make no mistake, I do agree that just getting people involved is really good. The smash community, I'd imagine, is so welcoming, so at a certain point it's just a matter of getting a friend to cling to and make sure nobody does anything out of line. I've never been to a tournament, so this'd be a must for me personally. (The first smash tournament I'll ever go to, I'll be accompanied by at least one friend that I know VERY well, and can trust, because I'm also really standoffish when it comes to doing anything outside my comfort zone.)

That being said, I do like a bit of trashtalk, but I doubt EVERYBODY likes it, there's no way to know before you say "AWGH MAN I'M GON' REK YA M8!!" that someone will take it personally.

TL;DR I agree with the sentiment of getting people involved, but there's a certain point where, like most things in life, ya just gotta bite the bullet and say "Okay I'm going to do this now" and attend with some company.

My point was that sexist comments (like "should I get you a tampon?") would be reduced if people actually interacted with girls in these situations. This is proven.

Your tl;dr is basically victim blaming. There's a reason why we have so few females at tournaments. You shouldn't have age to "bite the bullet" to go to a community that considers itself welcoming unless you have social anxiety or something like that that can't be controlled. But I don't know if the general public perceives us as welcoming. When people think of competitive Smash, they often think Melee. And when they think Melee, they think toxicity because of that oh-so-small minority of people that go around flaming any game that isn't Melee, especially other Smashes. That's a problem for us.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Are women somehow worse/better at Smash then men? That is one reason for multiple tournaments, to remove a handicap, that is why Soccer and Basketball are gender specific.

Would there be less bullying at a women/men only tournament? doubtful, there will probably be the same amount, just scaled down as not as many people are there.

Is there a problem, yep... I just don't think segregation is how to do it.

 

[ChikiLucario]

My point was that sexist comments (like "should I get you a tampon?") would be reduced if people actually interacted with girls in these situations. This is proven.

Your tl;dr is basically victim blaming. There's a reason why we have so few females at tournaments. You shouldn't have age to "bite the bullet" to go to a community that considers itself welcoming unless you have social anxiety or something like that that can't be controlled. But I don't know if the general public perceives us as welcoming. When people think of competitive Smash, they often think Melee. And when they think Melee, they think toxicity because of that oh-so-small minority of people that go around flaming any game that isn't Melee, especially other Smashes. That's a problem for us.

Who the hell would even say something like that, that's so rude and disrespectful. Uncalled for, even. But someone who says that isn't a very nice person to begin with. They'd probably say something like "Hey grow a pair of balls and stop being such a p***y" to a fellow guy. That said, anyone who even starts to say stuff like that should be reprimanded. I've never been to a melee tournament, so I can't say much on it.

I don't really know how it's victim blaming since I'd technically be victim blaming every single human who doesn't leave their house to do something like get their driver's license due to fear (like myself. I'm so terrified to even get in a car.) I can see where you're coming from, but you can't take anything that's said truthfully as victim blaming or an attac. Sorry if you took any of this personally, but it's how I feel.

Are women somehow worse/better at Smash then men? That is one reason for multiple tournaments, to remove a handicap, that is why Soccer and Basketball are gender specific.

Would there be less bullying at a women/men only tournament? doubtful, there will probably be the same amount, just scaled down as not as many people are there.

Is there a problem, yep... I just don't think segregation is how to do it.

It isn't about that, it's getting the socially anxious (Is that's a phrase? I dunno) out to participate in tournaments and get them involved. I definitely don't oppose it, I just oppose how people are trying to go about it. That being said, it's REALLY tough to come up with a good solution. So I feel for all the people (Because not just girls are afraid of attending, I'd be afraid of whole tournament scene too, and I'm just an ordinary guy who's new to it all) whose fear holds them back.

There might be more bullying, although I imagine at any tournament scene, a person who bullies a girl or anyone will just get kicked out since there should be 0 tolerance for it, considering (most of us) are mature adults or teenagers. Any of that garbage and an authoritative figure SHOULD step in. But that's an ideal situation; it isn't always like that. Some people can't separate trashtalk from harassment, but at the same time, anyone like that should just shut up. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it all, in that case.

 

[Lady Kuki]

I honestly have no clue whether an all female Smash tournament is a good idea or not.

For one thing, I'm a girl, and I go to male dominated tournaments all the time. They're a bit jarring at first, but you get used to it after a while. Heck, I have yet to get a single inappropriate comment concerning my gender; all of the guys at my tournaments are very respectful, lol. They're ironically more respectful than a lot of the guys I've gone to school with. After playing with people for a while, you forget about what gender they are and focus more on the game instead.

On the other hand, I do feel a bit lonely at tournaments. It's not because I think I'm going to be groped or anything. I more so feel lonely because I wish there were more girls who play Smash as much as I do. I was always a more nerdy type of girl. It was hard for me to get along with other girls due to my rather "masculine" interests. If I got along with a girl, it was because she was also nerdy in a way. Hanging out with guys is a lot of fun, but I want to hang out with girls too. There's something you get from hanging out with girls that you can't get from hanging out with guys.

A female Smash tournament sounds like a decent strategy at theory, but I'm not sure how it could be properly executed. There aren't enough female gamers to invite. I'm aware that apparently women make up around 40% of the gamer community, but what types of gamers are those women? Are they women who really get a kick out of gaming? Do they love to play competitively? Or are they mostly women who play mobile games or non-competitive games out of sheer boredom? I highly doubt there are a lot of women who play video games competitively, I mean I have yet to hear about a female only league for any sort of competitive game. The thing about chess is that it has existed for a very long time; video games are extremely new compared to chess which is why there is a female chess team in the first place.

So I think the main question is: How can we get more women to play competitively period? I don't know, but I have a feeling that not many competitive female gamers exist due to social stigma. Gaming market executives make games seem like it's for guys only; especially the more competitive type games like Call of Duty and LoL. In commercials for most games, there are mostly guys playing. With Smash advertisements, there are a few girls present, but Smash in ads is ultimately advertised as a casual game and not a competitive one. There's also the fact that girls are treated rather poorly in the gaming community; if you play online and say you're a girl, you'll either get cat calls or be called an "attention *****" in return. Maybe in time there will be more girls willing to play video games competitively; maybe not. Personally, until we get more girls into gaming period, I think we shouldn't bother doing female only tournaments. I mean, I like the idea but I'm not sure if the idea could work at the moment.

 

[Darknid]

Yeah except you didn't, you implied no through a flippant response, and you got the expected reaction. But whatever.

Ah yes, flippancy, the true hallmark of a 'psycho.' I guess right and wrong don't matter, it's all about presentation is it?

Again, it's funny to point out its irony, but if you honestly think it's a fair point to make, my criticism stands; your understanding is shallow. Saying this specific case of adding inclusiveness by "excluding" something is contradictory is like a child asking how a man stranded at sea could die of thirst. You seem to be more hooked on the absence of males than anything else.

I don't think it's going to work, but not because of how we define the words "inclusive" and "exclusive".

Few things: One, you're beating around the bush when I can tell what you really want to do is accuse me of an appeal to definition fallacy. The semantics of the terms 'inclusive' and 'exclusive' don't matter when the method proposed blatantly contradicts its intended purpose. Two, the irony is precisely what renders the idea silly and impossible to entertain as a serious proposition. The irony isn't that it includes by excluding, it's that it intends to include but ultimately excludes. I am saying the idea is counter-intuitive. You are not going to achieve integration between sexes by further separating them. So you can stuff a million straws into your strawman and it still won't make the idea proposed in the thread any better. Three, your accusation that I give a **** about males not being allowed in female tournaments isn't even relevant were it true; whether or not this idea will help the community isn't contingent upon whatever agenda you're accusing me of having, so why don't you stick to points that actually concern the topic at hand?

 

[telex]

I honestly have no clue whether an all female Smash tournament is a good idea or not.

For one thing, I'm a girl, and I go to male dominated tournaments all the time. They're a bit jarring at first, but you get used to it after a while. Heck, I have yet to get a single inappropriate comment concerning my gender; all of the guys at my tournaments are very respectful, lol. They're ironically more respectful than a lot of the guys I've gone to school with. After playing with people for a while, you forget about what gender they are and focus more on the game instead.

On the other hand, I do feel a bit lonely at tournaments. It's not because I think I'm going to be groped or anything. I more so feel lonely because I wish there were more girls who play Smash as much as I do. I was always a more nerdy type of girl. It was hard for me to get along with other girls due to my rather "masculine" interests. If I got along with a girl, it was because she was also nerdy in a way. Hanging out with guys is a lot of fun, but I want to hang out with girls too. There's something you get from hanging out with girls that you can't get from hanging out with guys.

ah, i feel you on this one.

Bill Trinen has responded to Milktea's tweet about the all girls crew battle that she organized at Genesis 3. Maybe my wish will come true!!

https://twitter.com/trintran/status/688247928071131136

 

[LightLV]

Spoiler: useless crap

Ah yes, flippancy, the true hallmark of a 'psycho.' I guess right and wrong don't matter, it's all about presentation is it?

Why do you keep dancing around "right" and "wrong" when it's blatantly obvious how offensive your post was.

Few things: One, you're beating around the bush when I can tell what you really want to do is accuse me of an appeal to definition fallacy.

Haha, it's been a while since i was in a college English course. I couldn't care less about name dropping fallacies just so everyone else can crack open a google search tab before returning to their post to pretend like they specifically know what i'm talking about.

You clearly have a well-defined stance on this issue, but instead of actually discussing this, you'd rather post trollish responses and then giggle as people take offense while you turtle your way out of admitting you posted a trollish response and clarifying said stance by explaining your reasons.

So no. The only thing i'm 'beating around the bush' to accuse you of is being an asshole.

(oops)

The semantics of the terms 'inclusive' and 'exclusive' don't matter when the method proposed blatantly contradicts its intended purpose.

Except it isn't contradictory. Unless, unlesssss, you're so shallow of a problem solver that you can't think more than a step or two in front of your face.

Two, the irony is precisely what renders the idea silly and impossible to entertain as a serious proposition. The irony isn't that it includes by excluding, it's that it intends to include but ultimately excludes. I am saying the idea is counter-intuitive. You are not going to achieve integration between sexes by further separating them.

AHHHHHHHH, there we go. See, wasn't that easy? Now we actually have something to discuss.

The topic is considering women-only tournaments for the sake of community growth. While the OP has still failed to provide any solid numbers that would prove this is a sound idea, the logic actually does make sense. Not because it's going to magically make females attend more tournaments because magic, but because it could, theoretically, 1) provide a (more) welcoming environment, 2) gather more interest in the game for a minority of players who may otherwise feel turned away, which could 3) result in more females enjoying the competitive scene, and thus wanting to participate with everyone (which, by the way, they're already perfectly capable of doing, but may not feel compelled to.) Stopping at "IT WONT HELP BECAUSE YOU'RE SEGREGATING" is, again, a very shallow way of criticizing the idea, since it seems to imply that...well, you're missing the entire point.

You should learn to not take everything at face value. It's helpful for learning purposes!

So you can stuff a million straws into your strawman and it still won't make the idea proposed in the thread any better. Three, your accusation that I give a **** about males not being allowed in female tournaments isn't even relevant were it true; whether or not this idea will help the community isn't contingent upon whatever agenda you're accusing me of having, so why don't you stick to points that actually concern the topic at hand?

blah blah blah fallacy blah blah blah i did nothing wrong y u mad blah blah blah BS blah blittity blah

ok

Edit:

I dont feel like continuing this circus with you any more.

There's a perfectly good post right above your last one that touches on why this idea isn't "impossible to entertain as a serious proposition". If you'd still rather assert that the conversation is useless based on some porous logic, then I don't see the point in responding.

 

[deepseadiva]

ah, i feel you on this one.

Bill Trinen has responded to Milktea's tweet about the all girls crew battle that she organized at Genesis 3. Maybe my wish will come true!!

https://twitter.com/trintran/status/688247928071131136

Yo!!!!!! This is so boss!!!!!!

We don't deserve Milktea.

 

[telex]

Yo!!!!!! This is so boss!!!!!!

We don't deserve Milktea.

she is actually a gift haha x3

 

[Emblem Lord]

Incoming controversial post. Yall know me..I say the **** most are too afraid to say.

There are no laws keeping women from entering tournies. Women are uncomfortable entering tournies? Ok. And? This is natural. Competitive gaming is a boys club. And as long as its not a boys club due to exclusion, then I DON'T see the issue.

A woman that is truly competitive..a TRUE warrior is not going to be deterred by a "sausagefest".

There is no need for tournaments for women. Do men have faster reactions on average? Yup. Men also have more fast-twitch muscle fibers. But reactions can be trained. Are men naturally more competitive? Duh. We have more testosterone. Guess what? Women have it too though in lesser amounts.They will just need to hone that competitive mindset a little bit more then men on average.

Hey guys did you know I'm black? Did you know that I have gotten hateful comments in chats referencing my race?

OMG!!! WE NEED BLACK PEOPLE ONLY TOURNAMENTS!!!ONEELEVEN!!!1111ONE!!!

Get this bull**** out of here.

There will always be asshats in any community. Chats are just twitter monsters hiding behind a keyboard. Ignore that stuff.

Why the **** are we entertaining the idea of separate tournaments when there are no exclusive laws and the biological advantage men have is negligible?

UGH

My perfect community is one in which the strong and knowledgeable are looked up too and nothing else. If women want real acceptance they should push through w/e the barriers are and show their ability, knowledge and drive to grow as players.

And if they get haters, then that means they are doing something right. Haters despise seeing others succeed.

 

[LightLV]

Incoming controversial post. Yall know me..I say the **** most are too afraid to say.

...*sigh*

There are no laws keeping women from entering tournies. Women are uncomfortable entering tournies? Ok. And? This is natural. Competitive gaming is a boys club. And as long as its not a boys club due to exclusion, then I DON'T see the issue.

A woman that is truly competitive..a TRUE warrior is not going to be deterred by a "sausagefest".

I'm not going anywhere near this ****, someone else can deal with it.

There is no need for tournaments for women. Do men have faster reactions on average? Yup. Men also have more fast-twitch muscle fibers. But reactions can be trained. Are men naturally more competitive? Duh. We have more testosterone. Guess what? Women have it too though in lesser amounts.They will just need to hone that competitive mindset a little bit more then men on average.

Screening reaction times between men and women without taking their daily activities into consideration is pretty bad science. The only (true) physiological advantage to reaction time, all things considered equal, is the height of the individual due to nerve signal distance to be traveled, and even that is trivial in regards to gaming. Your body builds nerve endings and brain connections only based upon what you've trained your body to do. An action gamer will have faster reflexes than an RPG gamer, who will have higher reflexes than a professional chess player. It's no different to the way most right-handed people will struggle to brush their teeth with their opposite hand. It's also the reason left-handed people tend to be ambidextrous, since they live in a right-handed world.

I said all that to say that, in regards to competitive gaming, none of those reasons you mentioned are likely to be the root cause, or anywhere close to the root cause, of anything in the context of this thread.

That, and you also seem to be confusing the traits of a competitive player with that of an over-inflated ego. Sure, you have your Fillipino Champs, but then you also have your Daigo Umeharas.

Hey guys did you know I'm black? Did you know that I have gotten hateful comments in chats referencing my race?

OMG!!! WE NEED BLACK PEOPLE ONLY TOURNAMENTS!!!ONEELEVEN!!!1111ONE!!!

Get this bull**** out of here.

Nope.

Someone has already brought up LBGT and racial minorities, and i'm sorry but they aren't comparable. Not even close. Off representation alone, i don't see how anyone could make an argument for any kind of racial division within the gaming scene. It's surprisingly diverse.

There will always be asshats in any community. Chats are just twitter monsters hiding behind a keyboard. Ignore that stuff.

Why the **** are we entertaining the idea of separate tournaments when there are no exclusive laws and the biological advantage men have is negligible?

I'm sorry to tell you this, but everyone doesn't come equipped with the chiseled balls of high-carbon steel that you apparently do. It's unfortunate, yes, I know, that some people dislike receiving stressful experiences for things they cannot control.

UGH

*sigh*

My perfect community is one in which the strong and knowledgeable are looked up too and nothing else. If women want real acceptance they should push through w/e the barriers are and show their ability, knowledge and drive to grow as players.

The irony of you bringing up your race and then posting a rant like this is a bit depressing. Mainly because it parallels debates people have on "black entitlement" and "white privilege". And i'm a bit afraid of your opinions on that, so don't even bother lol.