Should Smash consider women-only tournaments? Clear numbers say its great for community growth.

[RIP|Merrick]

I have no idea what this thread has devolved into, but I thought I'd share a good experience we had at our tournament just last night.

To my surprise and delight, three females came today for different reasons; two of which were there to support their boyfriends and watch their games, and another competed in bracket, which honestly really made me really happy to see. Yeah the others didn't play so much, but I did talk to them between pools and sets and what not, and they seemed to really feel welcome in the environment. I got to play some of them for fun on and off, and I was glad they were comfortable above all. We just joked around and for one of our competitors, I think her tag name was Leeve? Well since we had a spare laptop that wasn't being used for streams, I decided to put on some anime and just general Youtube Poop nonsense off it that she got a kick out of.

Like I dunno man, it's not too hard to go out of your way to make anyone feel welcome. This extends to the three kids whose parents brought them to compete, too; I want to make a grand experience for everyone involved regardless of your age or gender.

Do it for the kids.

 

[LightLV]

This entire discussion has been awful. Both sides think the other is absolutely wrong, trolling, and "won't see reason", as if their side's solution is perfect. And now apparently someone can't do something as simple as providing evidence to their claims. I confess that I haven't read all 7 pages as a result (and don't plan to).

~~'~Welcome to the Internet!~'~~

You know what I think would be good? A compromise. I spent all of 5 seconds coming up with this so take it and run with it. Have female-only gaming clubs at the local level to foster social interactions between players, interest in gaming, and skill growth. But then keep this seggregation away from the tournament level. If one barrier is that many are uncomfortable with being the only female present or being unskilled because someone just convinced them to tag along, working to foster genuine interest in gaming (and skills to bolster their credibility) is a great way to have female players invested enough to push past the remaining barriers while they adjust to the competitive level. The way I see it, they just need to have a real foot in the door. Now these gaming clubs could be general gaming clubs or dedicated Smash ones. It doesn't really matter. The idea is to help the growth of players naturally and in the future, provide role models. One gaming scene having a lot of female players is beneficial to every other scene in at least a small way.

This is pretty much what everyone for it is talking about. It seems like people who aren't for this idea are confusing the execution or underlining purpose in some way or another, which is where all the talks of "privilege" and "equality" and "segregation" keep coming from.

I don't really feel as though this is a compromising situation...it's only a burden to those who would host the event. Its outcome would have zero effect on existing tournaments or their turnouts...unless it was successful/unsuccessful, in which case it would increase/decrease the number of already-little female players respectively.

But I understand others think differently, so idk. Makes sense from my point of view though. The problem is a complex one, but this approach is ultimately pretty simplistic.

 

[Shouxiao]

Thinking about things I question if this shall really do good or not. Well a question would be what is the true intended results of female only tournaments?

There have been female tournaments in games before but there is something I notice. When it comes viewership numbers things are always lacking when compared to the main event. When there was a female tournament for Counterstrike the view count was only in the 10,000s. However the same tournament's main event had view counts that was over 1,000,000.

Is it really worth growing the female community this way if they are just going to be seen as inferior players?

When we look at Genesis 3 the event for the female crew battles was not even announced. I and I am sure most did not even know about it. In fact I would not be surprise if most did not find out the tournament happened until after it was over. At first I thought nobody even recorded the matches.

Here is the event. You have to watch at YouTube because the owner has it where it can only be viewed there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT6V7PkumkY

The best way for female players to get respect is simply prove their skills in my opinion. Fight games and esports are like a meritocracy in some ways(basically skill speaks more than anything).

Last year there were various Ultra Street Fighter IV tournaments. A female player really stood out and her name is Matsuri. I was say the most hype people saw was some of the matches that she played at EVO. She was not apart of a side event that barely anyone was watching. She was on the main streams with everyone watching. Honestly a player like Matsuri does significantly more for female players than any of these female tournaments have ever done.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Looking back a bit, I'll admit I kind of overreacted and I apologize for the way I could have worded my opinion.
However, I hold my position.

Women-only events won't really help the community grow as a whole, won't solve any of the underlying issues that held them out in the first place, and won't raise the interest of new people.
It might add a refreshing feel to women already involved, which is pretty much what happened at G3, but unless the event is THAT big, its reach will be limited so its long-term gain would be dubious.

RIP|Merrick 's post is a good example of simple actions you can follow to improve the overall acceptance of the community. If these minorities are accepted they'll play more. If they play more they will level up their game, if they are good enough, they'll be recognized and even more accepted. It's like a benefit circle.
That is what I meant with the simplest solution.
That is what happened to me.
That is what I've been trying to do with others.

 

[ARISTOS]

Thinking about things I question if this shall really do good or not. Well a question would be what is the true intended results of female only tournaments?

There have been female tournaments in games before but there is something I notice. When it comes viewership numbers things are always lacking when compared to the main event. When there was a female tournament for Counterstrike the view count was only in the 10,000s. However the same tournament's main event had view counts that was over 1,000,000.

Is it really worth growing the female community this way if they are just going to be seen as inferior players?

Did the female tournament have low numbers have low numbers because they were females and seen as inferior, or was it because it was a side-tournament?

Probably a bit of both tbh.

Either way, it makes sense that side tourneys will not have great viewer counts. Compare doubles vs singles- the same viewership count will come out.

The whole goal of this proposal is to encourage females to move into the main event.

Last year there were various Ultra Street Fighter IV tournaments. A female player really stood out and her name is Matsuri. I was say the most hype people saw was some of the matches that she played at EVO. She was not apart of a side event that barely anyone was watching. She was on the main streams with everyone watching. Honestly a player like Matsuri does significantly more for female players than any of these female tournaments have ever done.

The women's tournament is not meant to be a main event. It is only there to encourage players to come out. Ideally, players would come, play in the women's tournament, and graduate onto the main event. It's getting them in the door that we want.

Also how did female participation in USF4 change after Matsuri played. Did more enter the scene?

 

[Shouxiao]

Did the female tournament have low numbers have low numbers because they were females and seen as inferior, or was it because it was a side-tournament?

Probably a bit of both tbh.

Either way, it makes sense that side tourneys will not have great viewer counts. Compare doubles vs singles- the same viewership count will come out.

The whole goal of this proposal is to encourage females to move into the main event.




The women's tournament is not meant to be a main event. It is only there to encourage players to come out. Ideally, players would come, play in the women's tournament, and graduate onto the main event. It's getting them in the door that we want.

Also how did female participation in USF4 change after Matsuri played. Did more enter the scene?

Well I do not expect side events to have the same amount of viewers as the main events but these female only events bring in horrible view counts when compared to even the side events at Esports/gaming tournaments.

When Genesis 3 was happening I would have expected someone on this thread to post something about the female Smash Crew event. I would have expected at least someone(especially though who wants female tournaments) to say hey check this out at Genesis 3. I did not see anything about it on the main page from Smashboards or other FGC related websites.

By the time I found out about the female Smash Crew event it was already over. At first I thought no one even cared to record the matches of the event. Later(a week after the event) I found out from an article on Shoryuken that the matches were recorded and can be viewed.

When it comes to Street Fighter and Matsuri I would say that players like her are an inspiration to other female players. When it comes to players like Matsuri, she for example is really seen in a positive light. She is a player that has been on Topanga steams(NicoNico or Twitch) and has actually won against some of the best players in Japan. Females like her are acknowledge and respected.

Among Asian ethnic groups(Japanese in this case) I would say there are more female players in general due to things like an arcade scene. Last few years there was these events called Tekken Master Cup. The event has 100s of players on 5 people teams. There was a good amount of female teams/mixed teams at that event. The females players I seen at that tournament were very good and that tournament is really stacked.

Honestly I think female players should just go to the tournaments everyone else go to. Sure there may be trolls on the Twitch stream but the trolls on twitch troll everyone. Plus they are not actually there. At the actual tournaments its not like people are just going to make some sexist or racist comments at people. I know a few things have happened in the past but these days how many tournaments for fighting games are there.

This is an example of the diversity in the FGC.

 

[FairyLip]

I think it would also make a great networking opportunity for female players to realize that there are other members of the scene.

 

[Wolfheart77]

I know this is really late, but I've got a regional on Saturday and a local next Wednesday. IF you define a regional as having more than 100 players.
I didn't manage to find any weeklies near me, but it turns out a friend of mine is a TO for the monthly regionals they host about an hour and a half from here. We started carpooling and we're doing the same thing Saturday.
I had a couple girls come up and talk to me. One of them played friendlies with me and while she had to ask the person behind her for advice on the Robin v Villager matchup, she nearly won the match. Probably about 5 girls competed. I don't know how many made it out of pools (I didn't, I can tell you that, but I know at least the one I fought before the tournament proper did). The guys let me play with them. Everyone was really nice and friendly, one guy sat and played friendlies with me to give me Cloud advice after my pools, another congratulated me on picking up Robin as a main (and again, sat with me and played friendlies before the tournament to give me some Robin advice), another sat and instructed me on how to deal with Yoshi and Rosa (both of which I have a terribly hard time against). The guys were more surprised at the length of time I'd been playing rather than the fact that I was competing at all, and a Ryu player told me that I was better than about half the guys in his pools. And they ALL encouraged me.
And I'm going back. Because even though I'm female, they welcomed me, and I had a ton of fun. The people in my group are practicing with me this week and I'm better than I was last month. I might not make it out of pools this month either but I don't care, since I'll learn, get more advice, and overall improve my game.
And maybe someday I'll place. We'll see.
Edit: Left out half of my argument >.>
But I did talk to that friend that TO's there about a women's only tournament. He laughed and called it stupid and unnecessary, and his reasoning was along the lines of "We don't care who you are, we'll help you improve as long as you want to play, have fun, and hone your skills. There's no point in the separation."
And I agree wholeheartedly, still.

Now, it's not that we're going to see change overnight. But once more women are invited, have access, and have time, more women will get involved.

And to be fair, nerves cloud the judgment. Those who are nervous about coming are already biased toward not being welcome. It's the response of the people present that helps remove barriers. Maybe Kentucky is just more open to everything.
Also, women who don't put themselves out there aren't going to figure much out. I waited for a bit and let my friend introduce me to a couple of people, and then started going and talking to the guys in my pools, the guys I played friendlies with, constantly asking for advice and figuring out things I did wrong. But I still had to put myself out there in the first place. If I'd never done that, I might not have gotten too comfortable there.
It's all in good fun, right?

 

[1FC0]

In many sports there is a division between males and females due to sexual dimorphism making males superior in that particular sports. Experience has suggested that the superiority of males due to sexual dimorphism is not limited to physical sports but can exists in mental sports such as chess as well. If and only if males or females are superior to the other gender in Smash then making a division between males and females would make sense in my opinion.
Otherwise I see no valid reason to do so. Is it really such a common occurence for females this day and age to be so afraid of males that they dare not appear in a space where a large group of males have gathered? If so, then I suggest those females work on themselves in order to be more courageous instead of having the rest of the world cater to their irrational needs and fears.

 

[deepseadiva]

I suggest those females work on themselves in order to be more courageous instead of having the rest of the world cater to their irrational needs and fears.

Irrational would be a single or a few players not showing up. A SYSTEMIC problem is when women players make up less than 5% of ALL fighting game tournament goers.

This is a deeper problem than just an internal lack of bravery. As its been brought up before, waiting around for women players to collectively change their mindset is not a real plan of action.

We need action and not passive bystanding.

 

[1FC0]

Irrational would be a single or a few players not showing up. A SYSTEMIC problem is when women players make up less than 5% of ALL fighting game tournament goers.

This is a deeper problem than just an internal lack of bravery. As its been brought up before, waiting around for women players to collectively change their mindset is not a real plan of action.

We need action and not passive bystanding.

My point is that women can already join as far as their gender is concerned just like men can so there is no discrimination based on gender. So gender discrimination is no problem.

And for tournaments and the community there is no gender related problem either. It is OK that women do not enjoy Smash since the community does not need women. The community needs good players and their gender is irrelevant. And since there are a lot of good players the community is doing fine.

In addition to that since the best players tend to be male so the skill level in a female only tournament would probably be lower thus making the matches less interesting to watch.

 

[deepseadiva]

My point is that women can already join as far as their gender is concerned just like men can so there is no discrimination based on gender. So gender discrimination is no problem.

There is a problem because even though the entry is apparently all-clear, the numbers are still pitiful. Less than 5% attendance means there's some obstacle there, even if it's not immediately obvious what those obstacles are.

This is a well documented wall called a glass ceiling.

And for tournaments and the community there is no gender related problem either. It is OK that women do not enjoy Smash since the community does not need women. The community needs good players and their gender is irrelevant. And since there are a lot of good players the community is doing fine.

Noooooooo growth is always always always needed. Especially competitive games which live and die depending on player base.

Approach this from a marketing and business perspective. If any business heard they were missing a potential market that could grow their customer base by 50% there would always be immediate action.

In addition to that since the best players tend to be male so the skill level in a female only tournament would probably be lower thus making the matches less interesting to watch.

It's likely the best players tend to be male in chess and fighting games because there's a 100 to 1 ratio of male to female players.

You're applying a general assumption to an entire sex. Careful now.

 

[Zenithia]

One common factor that I see amongst almost all of the female gamers I know is ADHD. It makes sense, I have it; a ton of my friends have it. The ones that do are all interested in many typically "male-ish" hobbies or things. It led me to believe that there is a definite difference in the brains of neurotypical females that disinterests most of them from playing handheld and home console games at all.

Which led to me Googling this and finding an interesting article on WebMD. Perhaps this might provide some basic understanding for us on the disparity.

 

[deepseadiva]

One common factor that I see amongst almost all of the female gamers I know is ADHD. It makes sense, I have it; a ton of my friends have it. The ones that do are all interested in many typically "male-ish" hobbies or things. It led me to believe that there is a definite difference in the brains of neurotypical females that disinterests most of them from playing handheld and home console games at all.

Which led to me Googling this and finding an interesting article on WebMD. Perhaps this might provide some basic understanding for us on the disparity.

Intriguing. Another article saying the opposite: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds

I don't want to entirely discount the effect of slight biological differences affecting the low turnout, but I feel it's a sliver of the clear issue. Women haven't been explicitly marketed to until recently, and the effect is an apparent boys club.

 

[Zenithia]

Intriguing. Another article saying the opposite: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds

I don't want to entirely discount the effect of slight biological differences affecting the low turnout, but I feel it's a sliver of the clear issue. Women haven't been explicitly marketed to until recently, and the effect is an apparent boys club.

There is indeed a lot of evidence shown for both sides. And tbh, even if there are actual differences in the brain's makeup, hormones would probably play a much bigger role anyways.

Also, I'm glad we found some articles in here because this stuff is quite interesting.

 

[FallenHero]

I know I already said this, but I still think that we would have more female players if the female players we already have were placing high in major events. If anything is keeping women from going to tournaments other than themselves, it is just the lack of women who play video games (I mean women who play a lot of video games and play them often, not just casually play a game on their phone while on the bus) If anything is keeping them from playing video games, it is the way video games are perceived and how most games are advertised. Maybe if they were to have more advertisements for video games where it shows an adult woman playing a game not specifically marketed towards females, it could help. I feel like I am the only one here who thinks that there really isn't much we can do other than try to get a woman that you know to join.

 

[deepseadiva]

I know I already said this, but I still think that we would have more female players if the female players we already have were placing high in major events.

This is true. Representation has a major effect. http://www.theguardian.com/women-in-leadership/2013/nov/12/media-representation-matters

But like I mentioned before, top players emerge as outliers from large groups. With so few women even participating, it's not a surprise there's even fewer outliers.

Chess has been changing tactics, and we see the rise of several powerful women players, but to understand the scale of the undertaking, Chess has yet to see a woman #1.

I have a feeling Smash has the potential to achieve a woman #1 before even Chess...! Due to its accessibility. But that event is a long time away I think.

I feel like I am the only one here who thinks that there really isn't much we can do other than try to get a woman that you know to join.

We already have #SmashSisters which was massively popular, almost universally well received, got attention from multiple news outlets. There's no doubt a lot can be done.

 

[FallenHero]

We already have #SmashSisters which was massively popular, almost universally well received, got attention from multiple news outlets. There's no doubt a lot can be done.

But doesn't that fall into the category of representation? I don't really know how this proves that there is a lot that can be done, because this is an example of what I suggested when I said that we would probably have more female players if females players were placing higher. Assuming you are a female, if you were to make it into top 32 at EVO 2016, there is no doubt everyone would take notice and women might start playing Smash seriously/more seriously from being encouraged/inspired by you.

But like I mentioned before, top players emerge as outliers from large groups. With so few women even participating, it's not a surprise there's even fewer outliers.

Even if there are very few outliers of female players from large groups, it doesn't mean that they can't become one. Sure it is be very difficult to start getting noticed in an area that has a large Smash community, but it is not impossible. To make it to the top you will have to work even harder than the person who is already at the top.

 

[deepseadiva]

Are you implying we should like, train a top female player? Like, have a top player coach and mentor someone?

Not the worst idea..........? But that would take intense personal commitment. I wouldn't mind seeing it though.

The most "natural" way to see a top female player would be to simply grow the player base. Which is being done by marketing to those players, a la #smashsisters.

 

[FallenHero]

Are you implying we should like, train a top female player? Like, have a top player coach and mentor someone?

Not the worst idea..........? But that would take intense personal commitment. I wouldn't mind seeing it though.

The most "natural" way to see a top female player would be to simply grow the player base. Which is being done by marketing to those players, a la #smashsisters.

I never really thought about training a top female player, but that could work out well if the one being trained and the trainer are determined enough.

 

[1FC0]

There is a problem because even though the entry is apparently all-clear, the numbers are still pitiful. Less than 5% attendance means there's some obstacle there, even if it's not immediately obvious what those obstacles are.

This is a well documented wall called a glass ceiling.

The obstacles are in females themselves. Females are simply not as interested in competitive Smash as that males are. In fact, females are not as interested in competitive gaming in general as that males are. If you want to remove this glass ceiling than you will need to change human biology and mutate the female gender. Otherwise keeping a balance between males and females will always be an uphill battle against human biology that you will probably lose.

Noooooooo growth is always always always needed. Especially competitive games which live and die depending on player base.

Agreed and since males are more likely to become interested in Smash excluding them from tournaments makes no sense. If all we care about is getting good players than we should not exclude the group that has the most chance of producing those players.

Approach this from a marketing and business perspective. If any business heard they were missing a potential market that could grow their customer base by 50% there would always be immediate action.

Yes but for Smash that potential is most likely not there with women.

 

[deepseadiva]

The obstacles are in females themselves. Females are simply not as interested in competitive Smash as that males are. In fact, females are not as interested in competitive gaming in general as that males are.

Yes correct and -

If you want to remove this glass ceiling than you will need to change human biology and mutate the female gender.

No!!!! Lmao.

It's true that women are not currently interested in competitive gaming but INTEREST is probably the EASIEST thing to change inside people. We don't need to mutate human biology for girls to want to play Smash, I propose something much easier: advertising.

At this point, most observers will understand that the disparity here is a marketing problem, not that women are a seperate species incapable of being interested in competitive gaming.

Agreed and since males are more likely to become interested in Smash excluding them from tournaments makes no sense.

We accidentally host all-male tournaments every single week. Having all-female events won't effect those turnouts.

If all we care about is getting good players than we should not exclude the group that has the most chance of producing those players.

No we don't just care about getting "good" players. We just want players. Any and all skill levels.

Yes but for Smash that potential is most likely not there with women.

Nintendo and a lot of gaming companies are waking up to this target market. There's been SO much discussion about how to reach this market. Smash, the most accessible fighting game in the world probably has the MOST likely potential to reach those players.

 

[Shouxiao]

Ultimately speaking skill is what matters. Competitive gaming is a meritocracy in a sense. Having specific events base on things like gender or race is a bad idea. It would simply divide up the community.

Across all races and gender there is not going to be an even split among everything. Different gender and different races are simply going to favor different interest.

Honestly even if these events are not a "women league/division" I still think they shall give that impression that they are. Is it really worth it to be seen as "can not compete with men"? Why not just go to the tournaments that everyone else go to?

Honestly I question if people truly care about these type of events. When Smash Sisters happen at Genesis 3 who can honestly say they knew about it before it happened? By the time the Redbull article was posted it was already over. If it was not for a article on Shoryuken that had a link to the matches I doubt anyone would have known things were recorded.

I would say this. Let say females were 50% of the competitive community. If they did not have the skills to compete with the best they still would not really get attention. People would know they are there but focus on the top ranking players. This is why I say skill matters. If one is very skillful or contributes something to the community on a big scale(even if a minority) then they shall always get significantly more positive attention than others.

 

[1FC0]

At this point, most observers will understand that the disparity here is a marketing problem, not that women are a seperate species incapable of being interested in competitive gaming.

Not a different species, but different gender. Humans are sexually dimorphic both in body and mind. They have been like this for as long as recorded history goes back and this can not be changed that easily. Men and women will always have interests and behavoir that is typical for their gender.

We accidentally host all-male tournaments every single week. Having all-female events won't effect those turnouts.

No we do not. The tournaments do not discriminate on gender. Men are just more interested due to sexual dimosphism.

No we don't just care about getting "good" players. We just want players. Any and all skill levels.

Personally I only care about good players since bad players are boring to watch.

Nintendo and a lot of gaming companies are waking up to this target market. There's been SO much discussion about how to reach this market. Smash, the most accessible fighting game in the world probably has the MOST likely potential to reach those players.

Competitive Smash is too competitive and difficult for most female gamers. Nintendo tries to reach those groups not with just marketing but also by making different games I agree that for a company like Nintendo women can be a valuable target as is probably obvious from the Wii's sales, but that does not change that they are a bad target for competitive Smash. Women are best targeted with easy less competitive games like the ones Nintendo makes for them. And to clarify this obviously does not go for all women, but the exceptions to this will always be the vast minority.

I think that it is a pretty pointless endeavor to try to get more women into Smash.Especially if one is going to go through all the trouble of hosting a tournament and then ruins it by banning the best players based on irrelevant criteria like their gender. But if you disagree then go ahead and try to get those women into Smash and to proof me wrong.

 

[Violet Broregarde]

Not a different species, but different gender. Humans are sexually dimorphic both in body and mind. They have been like this for as long as recorded history goes back and this can not be changed that easily. Men and women will always have interests and behavoir that is typical for their gender.


No we do not. The tournaments do not discriminate on gender. Men are just more interested due to sexual dimosphism.


Personally I only care about good players since bad players are boring to watch.

Competitive Smash is too competitive and difficult for most female gamers. Nintendo tries to reach those groups not with just marketing but also by making different games I agree that for a company like Nintendo women can be a valuable target as is probably obvious from the Wii's sales, but that does not change that they are a bad target for competitive Smash. Women are best targeted with easy less competitive games like the ones Nintendo makes for them. And to clarify this obviously does not go for all women, but the exceptions to this will always be the vast minority.

I think that it is a pretty pointless endeavor to try to get more women into Smash.Especially if one is going to go through all the trouble of hosting a tournament and then ruins it by banning the best players based on irrelevant criteria like their gender. But if you disagree then go ahead and try to get those women into Smash and to proof me wrong.

oh ok we're doing this now

PSA: if you are discussing gender with someone, and they bring up evolution, they're trolling. Or they're so wrong that you can't reach them anyway.

 

[FallenHero]

oh ok we're doing this now

PSA: if you are discussing gender with someone, and they bring up evolution, they're trolling. Or they're so wrong that you can't reach them anyway.

lol I cant believe you are actually resorting to calling 1FC0 a troll.

He has a point, women on average are not interested in gaming, let alone competitive smash. I don't really agree with most of the things he said in this part of his post:

Competitive Smash is too competitive and difficult for most female gamers. Nintendo tries to reach those groups not with just marketing but also by making different games I agree that for a company like Nintendo women can be a valuable target as is probably obvious from the Wii's sales, but that does not change that they are a bad target for competitive Smash. Women are best targeted with easy less competitive games like the ones Nintendo makes for them. And to clarify this obviously does not go for all women, but the exceptions to this will always be the vast minority.

but trying to say that he is wrong when he says men and women will typically have different interests based on their own gender is just crazy.

 

[deepseadiva]

Having specific events base on things like gender or race is a bad idea. It would simply divide up the community.

Look around the room at any Smash event and it's clear a divide already exists; and it cannot get worse. Less than 5% is pitiful and reveals an embarrassing division for a community that supposedly is welcome to all.

Somethings can be done much better.

Honestly even if these events are not a "women league/division" I still think they shall give that impression that they are. Is it really worth it to be seen as "can not compete with men"? Why not just go to the tournaments that everyone else go to?

They do, and they will. The point is to funnel these players into these main events. I would not be concerned with impressions from players who don't understand that. It's like being upset at night clubs for hosting Ladies Nights. "WHY CAN'T THE LADIES COME TO OTHER NIGHTS????!!!!"

The point of Ladies Nights is to advertise the club to women. They initially come to the Ladies Night event, but once introduced to the club they are much more likely to return other nights.

It's an ancient tried-and-true marketing ploy.

Honestly I question if people truly care about these type of events. When Smash Sisters happen at Genesis 3 who can honestly say they knew about it before it happened? By the time the Redbull article was posted it was already over. If it was not for a article on Shoryuken that had a link to the matches I doubt anyone would have known things were recorded.

The first event was hastily thrown together with little warning. Do not assume its because no one cared. And even if no one did, as long as the women participating are enjoying themselves, who are we to interrupt their gameplay and say they shouldn't host their own events...???

Humans are sexually dimorphic both in body and mind. They have been like this for as long as recorded history goes back and this can not be changed that easily. Men and women will always have interests and behavoir that is typical for their gender.

False.

Women and men's brains differ only nominally. Stereotypical interests are only sociatelly enforced.

Competitive Smash is too competitive and difficult for most female gamers.

False.

I think that it is a pretty pointless endeavor to try to get more women into Smash.

False.

Especially if one is going to go through all the trouble of hosting a tournament and then ruins it by banning the best players based on irrelevant criteria like their gender. But if you disagree then go ahead and try to get those women into Smash and to proof me wrong.

I disagree because I care about the growth of the Smash community. Which includes everyone, of all skill levels.

 

[Lime Cultivist]

Not sure exactly what's going on in above comments since I just found this page, but I've only been to a few locals and I remember playing and losing to a girl in melee. I just played the game as usual, didn't win, and went on with the rest of the matches.

That's it. Not exactly contributing much to the conversation - but some females go to tourneys, and in that setting she was just another opponent to face. If you can get more females to go to tournaments and get good at comp smash, great, but some sort of special "XX only" tourney sounds kinda pointless to me.

 

[FallenHero]

Look around the room at any Smash event and it's clear a divide already exists; and it cannot get worse. Less than 5% is pitiful and reveals an embarrassing division for a community that supposedly is welcome to all.

Somethings can be done much better.

False.

Women and men's brains differ only nominally. Stereotypical interests are only sociatelly enforced.

While it is true that the brains of men and women are not that different, it is not really a bad thing that women are less than 5% of the participants in events. Like many others have already said we really just care about the growth of the community, it doesn't matter what the ratio of male players to female players is. The only case I see it mattering is not getting as much growth as we could because women don't want to join a community where more than 95% of event participants are men, but lets be honest; it probably barely has any effect considering the average woman does not play video games, and even less play them competitively. It is not "an embarrassing division", it is not really the smash community's fault that women are such a small percentage of the community and there really anything "embarrassing" about it.

They do, and they will. The point is to funnel these players into these main events. I would not be concerned with impressions from players who don't understand that. It's like being upset at night clubs for hosting Ladies Nights. "WHY CAN'T THE LADIES COME TO OTHER NIGHTS????!!!!"

The point of Ladies Nights is to advertise the club to women. They initially come to the Ladies Night event, but once introduced to the club they are much more likely to return other nights.

It's an ancient tried-and-true marketing ploy.

I am all for a "Ladies Night" (as long as it is just something like they can enter for free or something) since it will probably will have the effect that is intended to have. I'm usually against affirmative action, but in the case of trying to get more people of a certain group to participate in gaming events I think it is fine.

I disagree because I care about the growth of the Smash community. Which includes everyone, of all skill levels.

Well you just kinda agreed with him by saying that it includes everyone of all skill levels.

Also if you are going to start a response by just straight up telling someone they are wrong at least explain why.



Lime Cultivist One of my cats looks exactly like the one in your profile pic

 

[Shouxiao]

Look around the room at any Smash event and it's clear a divide already exists; and it cannot get worse. Less than 5% is pitiful and reveals an embarrassing division for a community that supposedly is welcome to all.

Somethings can be done much better.

There is no divide. Female competitive interest simply is not as high. Community is open to all but it is still the job of people(regardless of who they are) to show up.

If the Smash community truly want to be hostile toward someone base on their demographic then there are many direct and indirect ways of doing so.

They do, and they will. The point is to funnel these players into these main events. I would not be concerned with impressions from players who don't understand that. It's like being upset at night clubs for hosting Ladies Nights. "WHY CAN'T THE LADIES COME TO OTHER NIGHTS????!!!!"

The point of Ladies Nights is to advertise the club to women. They initially come to the Ladies Night event, but once introduced to the club they are much more likely to return other nights.

It's an ancient tried-and-true marketing ploy.

Smash and competitive gaming is a meritocracy. Lady Night at some western society night club is not. Ultimately things such as race, sexual orientation, and gender is of no value. Skill is what is seen as something of worth.

The first event was hastily thrown together with little warning. Do not assume its because no one cared. And even if no one did, as long as the women participating are enjoying themselves, who are we to interrupt their gameplay and say they shouldn't host their own events...???

People can do their events and stuff. Thing is do any of these players actually go to the main tournaments later?

 

[1FC0]

oh ok we're doing this now

PSA: if you are discussing gender with someone, and they bring up evolution, they're trolling. Or they're so wrong that you can't reach them anyway.

My post in no way referred to the theory of evolution. So if your comment about bringing up the theory of evolution refers to me then you are setting up a strawman.

The fact that men and women differ in mind due to their gender is obvious. I differences in behaviour between men and women truly where socially enforced then they would most likely differ between cultures. However everywhere and in every time period as far as history is recorded with very few exceptions men have had the same typical male behaviour of competing, exploring, and building which women typically lacked in favor of their feminine behaviour. This is a huge indication that gender differences in behaviour truly is biological.

Also there has already been an "experiment" about this. Look up David Reimer and see for yourself how well raising a biological male as a female worked out for him.

Spoiler

Very bad because he was biologically male and thus his boyish behaviour could not be changed by socially enforcing female behaviour.

 

[1FC0]

Sorry for the accidental double post.