Should Smash consider women-only tournaments? Clear numbers say its great for community growth.

[deepseadiva]

For whatever reason there's a large disparity between men and women tournament entrants. Women make up less than 9%* of all tournament attendees. How do we foster growth and encourage more players? Host women-only tournaments that explicitly provides a stepping stone event for these players and welcomes them without the pressure of being a statistical anomaly.

*completely made up number. Would love to see actual data if anyone can provide.

An idea brought over from the World Chess Federation, from this recent post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3yr609/a_post_about_chess_makes_a_great_point_about/

A question I commonly here is "how can we improve and grow the competitive Smash community?" Here's one idea, and with Smash being the most accessible fighting game in the world, Smash has a unique position of welcoming an entirely new generation of fighting gamers.

 

[Clonedpickle]

In the short term I see it being good but female only tournaments would be bad in the long term since females are not going to be playing against the best when it comes to males, their skills will show that when they do face them, if that makes any sense at all. Tournaments should be about the best player and not about gender.

As for the question "how can we improve and grow the competitive Smash community?", this is going to be hard to explain. The fighting game community as a whole needs to be more welcoming towards females and new players and this includes Smash. The amount of insults and gloating I see coming from people can be quite intimidating. Tho at the same time a lot of people have the mentality that "Smash is not a fighting game" and that mentality gets posted everywhere and people who are new to Smash get mocked cause they like it.

This is just my 2 cents on the matter.

 

[NEKO']

well as a female player i'll just tell my viewpoint.
regardless of gender you'd just have to attend normal tournaments.
sure you get the occasional "oh my god it's a grill" but..then again you should be prepared for it since you KNOW what you're diving into.
i place well at my locals and majors here, and that's all because i managed to become good by playing the top players from my region.

TL;DR: i think it's a bad and unnecessary idea. both for community growth and individual growth as a player.

 

[deepseadiva]

TL;DR: i think it's a bad and unnecessary idea. both for community growth and individual growth as a player.

Evidence from the chess world proves that these events only have a positive effect on tournament attendance and community growth. More players is simply more players.

As for how this effects individual growth in female players, thats an exact concern Judit Polgár, the strongest female chess player in history expressed as well. She never entered women-only titles because she only wanted to play under the same pressures as the men; she went on to beat then #1 world players and was the first woman to do so.

 

[Crudele]

I'm not too sure. In physical sports it can sometimes make sense because of physiological differences between men and women, but in a game like chess or smash, where it's just brains and/or reaction time, there shouldn't be a gap to divide the community. A ladys only tournament might be good for introducing some women to the game, where they don't feel pressured by a bunch of dudes being around, but the idea of a separate "league" for women gamers sounds counter-productive.

An easy way to bring more gender diversity into the community is to simply be more welcoming. Invite anyone who's interested in the game to your locals. Dudes: don't creep. Try dropping sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. language from your vocabulary. And, as it pertains to one special case, don't pressure a girl into sending pics of her feet by lying about dying. That **** is WEIRD.

 

[Nobie]

Whether women-only tournaments are necessary is entirely on how the community treats women, and whether women feel it is a space worth exploring. There is a very social aspect to tournaments and very few people would want to pursue a hobby or passion if it means just getting incessantly bullied or teased or badmouthed. If we're at 9% right now, but the girls (and boys!) in the community can create a space that encourages women to play in tournaments, then a natural progression can happen. If it seems almost impossible, women-only tournaments can be the boost that allows women to check out their first tournament, then go into the all genders tournaments from there.

 

[Xermo]

Chess isn't Smash.
Artificially creating a safe "starter zone" for female players to get into the game, when both sex are already encouraged to participate in the community, sounds redundant and demeaning. You don't peak interest for something by isolating your target interest and making them feel different.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm inclined to agree with Xermo on this one. It strikes me as a case of "good intentions, poor execution": have we ever considered the possibility that there's a dearth of women in Smash because...there's a dearth of women in Smash? Not trying to be condescending, but I honestly do not think there is a direct, singular reason why Smash has a majority male community. If anything, the reasons for this are manifold and not necessarily tethered to the idea that women can't perform as well as men can in a competitive video game.

I don't know, the idea just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can't speak for everybody, but I know that I, personally, would abhor the thought that I'm being treated as a "special case" due to my gender.

An easy way to bring more gender diversity into the community is to simply be more welcoming. Invite anyone who's interested in the game to your locals. Dudes: don't creep. Try dropping sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. language from your vocabulary. And, as it pertains to one special case, don't pressure a girl into sending pics of her feet by lying about dying. That **** is WEIRD.

This too. My god, so much this.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

I also think that singling out females is a bit counterproductive.
It's not supposed to be about gender. It's about your button presses at the end of the day. The way I look at it, if you like smash and you want to git gud you're alright in my book unless proven otherwise by your actions.
I understand that females can be/are a rarity but when you look at the statistics is pretty much the same way across the board when you look at the ratios of male and female gamers in just about every game. Sometimes it is due to how they are oogled or whatnot through excessive thirst or there are those bad apples who try to bully and whatnot, but I think that there is honestly just a disinterest for playing. That's completely okay, competitive video games aren't for you.

I'd like to also mention that there are plenty of male players who are sometimes ragged on well. We shouldn't just treat female players better.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

well as a female player i'll just tell my viewpoint.
regardless of gender you'd just have to attend normal tournaments.
sure you get the occasional "oh my god it's a grill" but..then again you should be prepared for it since you KNOW what you're diving into.
i place well at my locals and majors here, and that's all because i managed to become good by playing the top players from my region.

TL;DR: i think it's a bad and unnecessary idea. both for community growth and individual growth as a player.

To be fair, you shouldn't have to prepare for sexual harassment.

It shouldn't happen. The problem almost exclusively lies with the adolescent males, so non-males have no burden of responsibility for learning to cope with that problem.

That said, having a thick skin is an important trait for any gamer, male or female.

 

[Treedot]

I don't think tournaments should be restricted to any gender or group of people, because you can't "git gud" unless you can play against everyone. Nothing is stopping females from going to normal tournaments except themselves, really.

 

[wizrad]

Segregating men and women isn't a good idea. Maybe a "ladies' night" thing where women don't have to pay an entry fee so their friends can drag them along would work. I don't know. But I do know that Smash is more male-dominated than it should be, especially considering 48% of gamers (loosely defined) are female.

Sausagefests make me uncomfortable.

 

[Treedot]

Segregating men and women isn't a good idea. Maybe a "ladies' night" thing where women don't have to pay an entry fee so their friends can drag them along would work. I don't know. But I do know that Smash is more male-dominated than it should be, especially considering 48% of gamers (loosely defined) are female.

Sausagefests make me uncomfortable.

Ladies' Night is a great idea. I wish some tournament-goers weren't so creepy, that causes issues.

 

[Ulevo]

We have poor representation of women in the Smash community because statisticslly we have a poor representation of women in console gaming in general. There is simply a smaller pool of female players. That is how it has been for a long time. The reason this happened was because Nintendo made financially driven business decisions to cater and market to one demographic over another. While there are a lot of good points made, I do not believe this is the answer because it seeks to utilize the same methods to fix the problem as the practices that started it.

 

[wizrad]

I agree. Most of the things we can do just treat the symptom of women being absent. There's a disease behind it: big business doesn't care about equality, it cares about money.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm imagining turnouts of seven, maybe eight entrants if this were done at a local. Many of whom are not regular tournament goers, so their poor skill will inhibit the idea that women are bad at Smash.

I always notice that female players always seem to get time for friendlies with the resident pros. It's like, how do they do it!?

Sorry for the not so serious answer, but much of what has been said in this thread is already accurate (and surprisingly civil! Way to go!). Though one day I really want to see a Couples Doubles tournament. It's the cutest damned thing that I just can't get out of my head.

 

[aεrgiα]

interesting idea, and while i think in chess the idea isnt a bad one, i dont think it would help in smash. the reason why chess has women only tournaments(along side open for all tournaments) is for the purpose of fostering female talent which may potentially go unnoticed in a male dominated community, which carries this "stigma" due to quite a long history. the question is, in regards to smash, is the reason thats holding potential female smash players back the fact that its percived as a more male oriented game? and is it even considered as such, i mean out of all "competitive" games smash is probably the game thats considered the most "family friendly" to put it nicely, or as a kiddies game to put it frankly. a community carrying such a label would certainly not deter me as much as a community carrying the label of "hardcore gamers" if im completely honest(now this isnt what i think about smash ofc, just the general view point im seeing from a lot of other gamers about it(sadly)). and would making women only tournaments really cause an increase in female players? or would there be just 5-10 people attending each tournament and then quickly losing interest due to a lack of competition?
i dont think smash would profit from it because, unlike chess, smash doesnt have such a large player base that women only tournaments would have a large enough turn out to get the recognition they would need(imo) to actually achieve an overall possitive result(and not have women tournaments be looked down upon as "second class tournaments" which would actually be counterproductive). another thing to consider is that, while the intention may be to make smash more accessible to female players, it could be taken up by potential female players as a condescending gesture, a la "women arent good enough to compete with males so we host (potentially considered "second class") tournaments for only them".
and lastly, in regards to chess, one reason why these women only tournaments are hosted(if the article can be believed) is for female chess players to more easily be able to make a living off of it, and i dont think smash is at a level where anything outside of the very top level players can make a living out of it, regardless of gender

 

[Treedot]

I think one of the big issues is that around the time of Smash's conception, video gaming in general was considered a male only thing, but that's changing rapidly in today's world. I believe that with time, the numbers will change more and more. I think I heard some statistic that in 2013 the Male to Female ratio of gamers was 70% male and 30% female, so we're getting somewhere.

 

[Pazx]

Nobody here read the reddit thread, it clearly explains how female-only tournaments help despite there being a smaller number of female competitors to begin with. I don't necessarily support or condemn the suggestion but the fact that nobody looked past the title of this thread is appalling, if unsurprising.

I think one of the big issues is that around the time of Smash's conception, video gaming in general was considered a male only thing, but that's changing rapidly in today's world. I believe that with time, the numbers will change more and more. I think I heard some statistic that in 2013 the Male to Female ratio of gamers was 70% male and 30% female, so we're getting somewhere.

http://www.pcgamer.com/researchers-find-that-female-pc-gamers-outnumber-males/
http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/4/9669110/pew-research-center-female-gamers-statistics
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/17/women-video-games-iab
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rprising-facts-lost-in-the-mess-of-gamergate/
http://www.dailydot.com/geek/adult-women-largest-gaming-demographic/

 

[Treedot]

Nobody here read the reddit thread, it clearly explains how female-only tournaments help despite there being a smaller number of female competitors to begin with. I don't necessarily support or condemn the suggestion but the fact that nobody looked past the title of this thread is appalling, if unsurprising.



http://www.pcgamer.com/researchers-find-that-female-pc-gamers-outnumber-males/
http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/4/9669110/pew-research-center-female-gamers-statistics
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/17/women-video-games-iab
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...rprising-facts-lost-in-the-mess-of-gamergate/
http://www.dailydot.com/geek/adult-women-largest-gaming-demographic/

Thank you for the updated information! I am not sure where I heard what I heard, or how reliable the source was anyways.

 

[Wintropy]

Nobody here read the reddit thread, it clearly explains how female-only tournaments help despite there being a smaller number of female competitors to begin with.

It helps in chess. As Xermo said, Smash is not chess. That's not to say it can't or won't work, but telling people they didn't read the thread, despite a few people already putting forth reasons to suggest why it may not be applicable to a relatively small video game scene in the same way as it is in a major international sport, is a difficult pill to swallow.

 

[Lyserdon]

It helps in chess. As Xermo said, Smash is not chess. That's not to say it can't or won't work, but telling people they didn't read the thread, despite a few people already putting forth reasons to suggest why it may not be applicable to a relatively small video game scene in the same way as it is in a major international sport, is a difficult pill to swallow.

I think I got the same impression as Pazx, so I'll try to express it without making assumptions about who read what. A large number of the replies in this thread appear to misrepresent either what exactly is being proposed or the goals of it. No one proposed "segregation", or attempted to justify women's tournaments on the grounds of physiological ability level, yet those are being attacked as a way of shooting down the idea. There's been good discussion too, but refuting an idea based on claims it isn't making can be not only frustrating, but difficult to distinguish from bad faith arguments, especially in a touchy field like gender equality, where both intentional bad faith and unintentional bias are everywhere.

With that out of the way, I do agree with those who say that a women's league might not fit Smash right. Concerns about the size and income potential of the player base are certainly valid. But I don't think that means women's events are a bad idea. The goal isn't to give women their own infrastructure within the community, but to give them access to it. Yes, as we've seen in this thread, women *can* succeed in the community as is. But I've seen no data to back up its rarity being a result of lack of interest.

Exclusionary attitudes and uncomfortable environments may be the core issue. And we should always work to be better, more positive, and welcoming people and encourage others to be the same. But talking about it doesn't change everyone's attitudes. More to the point, it won't change the attitudes of the biggest and most tenacious parts of the problem. But if you specifically target women to show up in greater numbers at your events, consistently, over time, then the novelty and mystery will wear off and there will be less for those who act hostile out of fear or hate to fear or hate. And at that point, maybe women's only events would have completed their function and no longer be necessary to drive that change.

 

[Wintropy]

I think I got the same impression as Pazx, so I'll try to express it without making assumptions about who read what. A large number of the replies in this thread appear to misrepresent either what exactly is being proposed or the goals of it. No one proposed "segregation", or attempted to justify women's tournaments on the grounds of physiological ability level, yet those are being attacked as a way of shooting down the idea. There's been good discussion too, but refuting an idea based on claims it isn't making can be not only frustrating, but difficult to distinguish from bad faith arguments, especially in a touchy field like gender equality, where both intentional bad faith and unintentional bias are everywhere.

With that out of the way, I do agree with those who say that a women's league might not fit Smash right. Concerns about the size and income potential of the player base are certainly valid. But I don't think that means women's events are a bad idea. The goal isn't to give women their own infrastructure within the community, but to give them access to it. Yes, as we've seen in this thread, women *can* succeed in the community as is. But I've seen no data to back up its rarity being a result of lack of interest.

Exclusionary attitudes and uncomfortable environments may be the core issue. And we should always work to be better, more positive, and welcoming people and encourage others to be the same. But talking about it doesn't change everyone's attitudes. More to the point, it won't change the attitudes of the biggest and most tenacious parts of the problem. But if you specifically target women to show up in greater numbers at your events, consistently, over time, then the novelty and mystery will wear off and there will be less for those who act hostile out of fear or hate to fear or hate. And at that point, maybe women's only events would have completed their function and no longer be necessary to drive that change.

Thank you for clarifying, that makes more sense.

I should clarify myself that I don't think it's an inherently bad idea, and I'm all for community-building and getting fresh blood into the scene, but context is important. Chess has been a professional sport for over a century now, its player pool is massive and there's enough monetary incentive to get people interested in the fist place; it isn't going anywhere. Contrast that with Smash 4, a fledgling e-sport by comparison, where only the best players in the world really have a chance of making any kind of consistent financial return on it. Most smaller venues for Smash 4 have difficulty organising the brackets they currently have due to this, adding another one is going to be a difficult feat in itself; I've worked with TOs of small tournaments before, and what it really comes down to is whether there's enough potential interest to justify its consideration. I don't know if there is interest, there may well be, and the only way to determine that is to try it and see how it goes. So in that sense, there's merit to it being considered. Bigger venues will probably have less of an issue and attract a wider pool of players, so it may be best to start with them and see if there's enough reason to extend it to local tournaments too.

The other thing I'm wondering is: why just women? We have amateur brackets for people less experienced in the game, if we're trying to extend the olive branch to women to get more people into the scene, why not do the same for younger and older players (competitive chess has junior brackets for under-20s and senior brackets for middle-aged and older)? There's a logistics question here too, and there's no doubt that women represent a much greater potential demographic in the competitive scene than youngsters and the elderly, but it's food for thought. If we're going to get more people interested and cater to their needs, why stop at just one demographic when there are others to be considered too?

 

[aεrgiα]

I think I got the same impression as Pazx, so I'll try to express it without making assumptions about who read what. A large number of the replies in this thread appear to misrepresent either what exactly is being proposed or the goals of it. No one proposed "segregation", or attempted to justify women's tournaments on the grounds of physiological ability level, yet those are being attacked as a way of shooting down the idea. There's been good discussion too, but refuting an idea based on claims it isn't making can be not only frustrating, but difficult to distinguish from bad faith arguments, especially in a touchy field like gender equality, where both intentional bad faith and unintentional bias are everywhere.

With that out of the way, I do agree with those who say that a women's league might not fit Smash right. Concerns about the size and income potential of the player base are certainly valid. But I don't think that means women's events are a bad idea. The goal isn't to give women their own infrastructure within the community, but to give them access to it. Yes, as we've seen in this thread, women *can* succeed in the community as is. But I've seen no data to back up its rarity being a result of lack of interest.

Exclusionary attitudes and uncomfortable environments may be the core issue. And we should always work to be better, more positive, and welcoming people and encourage others to be the same. But talking about it doesn't change everyone's attitudes. More to the point, it won't change the attitudes of the biggest and most tenacious parts of the problem. But if you specifically target women to show up in greater numbers at your events, consistently, over time, then the novelty and mystery will wear off and there will be less for those who act hostile out of fear or hate to fear or hate. And at that point, maybe women's only events would have completed their function and no longer be necessary to drive that change.

see the problem i have with his post i will highlight to you,

Nobody here read the reddit thread, it clearly explains how female-only tournaments help despite there being a smaller number of female competitors to begin with. I don't necessarily support or condemn the suggestion but the fact that nobody looked past the title of this thread is appalling, if unsurprising.

look at what i highlighted, its unfounded, accusing and frankly sort of offending and even condescending when looking at the very last part. in fact it seems like he didnt even read all the comments in this thread, despite accusing all of them, i mean, i even directly mentioned some things from said thread only to go on saying why i dont think they apply to smash, but yet i obviously didnt look past the title of this thread... ill quote the equivalent in your post just to highlight the difference "A large number of the replies in this thread appear to misrepresent either what exactly is being proposed or the goals of it."

now onto the actual reply, i assume you included my reply in the "No one proposed "segregation", or attempted to justify women's tournaments on the grounds of physiological ability level, yet those are being attacked as a way of shooting down the idea." part so i will clarify that that is not what i was trying to say, what i was trying to say was that, regardless of the original intent of the extra tournament it could potentially(and probably imo) be labeled as a "second class tournament" regardless of purpose. as a real example for this happening i want to point to the uefa europa league(football, or soccer for americans) which originally started out as a competition for the winners of the national cup of each country thats part of the uefa, but now it has just degraded into the second class tournament which is for all those clubs not good enough for the champions league, this was never the intent of the competition but that is what people have made of it... just a real life example of what i mean.
i also agree that i dont think the idea of women only tournaments is bad at all, i just dont think its a system that would work in the context of smash... and as for uncomfortable environments... i think that could very well be a large issue, looking at the immaturity of a lot of people who jump at the mere mention of a "grill" and think its funny, which it really isnt -_- but the issue is, how would u fix that, and i dont think women only tournaments would neccessarily help alleviate this issue, i could however, be wrong about that and i never claimed otherwise...

 

[Buffoon]

In an ideal world, this wouldn't be necessary since as a community we should be welcoming to new members. But if women-only tournament encourages more people to come out and play, I say go for it.

Not trying to be condescending, but I honestly do not think there is a direct, singular reason why Smash has a majority male community.

Smash Bros. started during the Nintendo 64 era, where almost every video game was still marketed with the idea that video games were a hobby that only males enjoyed. I'm not saying that females didn't play video games, but the idea of everyone; regardless of age or gender, playing video games didn't catch on until the PS3/360/Wii era.

 

[Wintropy]

Smash Bros. started during the Nintendo 64 era, where almost every video game was still marketed with the idea that video games were a hobby that only males enjoyed. I'm not saying that females didn't play video games, but the idea of everyone; regardless of age or gender, playing video games didn't catch on until the PS3/360/Wii era.

That's a reason, but it's not the reason. My point is that there's a variety of reasons why women may not be interested in playing a competitive video game; marketing is one of the big reasons, but there's still a social / emotional aspect to it, in addition to other reasons such as fear of "not fitting in", attitudes towards gamers outside of the "norm", personal interest in the game as a hobby and, relevant to the OP, the idea that there isn't enough being done to promote the interest of women in the scene.

 

[Lyserdon]

Thank you for clarifying, that makes more sense.

I should clarify myself that I don't think it's an inherently bad idea, and I'm all for community-building and getting fresh blood into the scene, but context is important. Chess has been a professional sport for over a century now, its player pool is massive and there's enough monetary incentive to get people interested in the fist place; it isn't going anywhere. Contrast that with Smash 4, a fledgling e-sport by comparison, where only the best players in the world really have a chance of making any kind of consistent financial return on it. Most smaller venues for Smash 4 have difficulty organising the brackets they currently have due to this, adding another one is going to be a difficult feat in itself; I've worked with TOs of small tournaments before, and what it really comes down to is whether there's enough potential interest to justify its consideration. I don't know if there is interest, there may well be, and the only way to determine that is to try it and see how it goes. So in that sense, there's merit to it being considered. Bigger venues will probably have less of an issue and attract a wider pool of players, so it may be best to start with them and see if there's enough reason to extend it to local tournaments too.

The other thing I'm wondering is: why just women? We have amateur brackets for people less experienced in the game, if we're trying to extend the olive branch to women to get more people into the scene, why not do the same for younger and older players (competitive chess has junior brackets for under-20s and senior brackets for middle-aged and older)? There's a logistics question here too, and there's no doubt that women represent a much greater potential demographic in the competitive scene than youngsters and the elderly, but it's food for thought. If we're going to get more people interested and cater to their needs, why stop at just one demographic when there are others to be considered too?

I won't speak to the difficulty organizing local brackets because while I've never seen a lack of interest, I realize I live in a pretty densely populated area relatively speaking, with a pretty enthusiastic scene. At the tournaments I've been to, adding in a women's bracket as a side event, even if it's contingent week to week on the turnout, doesn't seem like it would harm anything. I also don't really think that lack of financial incentive is that big of a factor (though definitely correct me if I'm wrong). I don't only see the top players in my region coming back week after week. I personally doubt I'll ever even place in the money at a local and yet I keep going back because it's about the place and the people and the fun.

You make a great point about other demographics. I get the impression that in gaming, the biggest imbalance between interest and participation exists with women. But anything that encourages a more inclusive and diverse community is okay in my eyes.

see the problem i have with his post i will highlight to you,

look at what i highlighted, its unfounded, accusing and frankly sort of offending and even condescending when looking at the very last part. in fact it seems like he didnt even read all the comments in this thread, despite accusing all of them, i mean, i even directly mentioned some things from said thread only to go on saying why i dont think they apply to smash, but yet i obviously didnt look past the title of this thread... ill quote the equivalent in your post just to highlight the difference "A large number of the replies in this thread appear to misrepresent either what exactly is being proposed or the goals of it."

now onto the actual reply, i assume you included my reply in the "No one proposed "segregation", or attempted to justify women's tournaments on the grounds of physiological ability level, yet those are being attacked as a way of shooting down the idea." part so i will clarify that that is not what i was trying to say, what i was trying to say was that, regardless of the original intent of the extra tournament it could potentially(and probably imo) be labeled as a "second class tournament" regardless of purpose. as a real example for this happening i want to point to the uefa europa league(football, or soccer for americans) which originally started out as a competition for the winners of the national cup of each country thats part of the uefa, but now it has just degraded into the second class tournament which is for all those clubs not good enough for the champions league, this was never the intent of the competition but that is what people have made of it... just a real life example of what i mean.
i also agree that i dont think the idea of women only tournaments is bad at all, i just dont think its a system that would work in the context of smash... and as for uncomfortable environments... i think that could very well be a large issue, looking at the immaturity of a lot of people who jump at the mere mention of a "grill" and think its funny, which it really isnt -_- but the issue is, how would u fix that, and i dont think women only tournaments would neccessarily help alleviate this issue, i could however, be wrong about that and i never claimed otherwise...

I agree with the issues you take in how he responded. In fact, you're highlighting exactly what I wanted to do, which is to explain the legitimate concerns that led to the assumptions he made, without making any assumptions myself.

Also I was not thinking of your reply as misrepresenting anything. Chess has women's leagues and women's titles. And you presented some salient points about the implication of doing that in Smash. I however am not advocating women's leagues or power rankings or anything like that. I see the same problems with that that many have pointed out. But if the womens only events are meant to be access, rather than infrastructure, the second class tournament stigma becomes moot. The goal isn't glory or recognition for women's events, but to use them as a way to give women who want to play Smash but feel unwelcome by the scene a place to get their foot in the door. Deepseadiva even referred to them as stepping stone events.

And I do believe strongly that they have the potential to shape the collective attitude and diversity of the scene as well very little risk for trying.

 

[p1ay6ack]

see the problem i have with his post i will highlight to you,

look at what i highlighted, its unfounded, accusing and frankly sort of offending and even condescending when looking at the very last part. in fact it seems like he didnt even read all the comments in this thread, despite accusing all of them, i mean, i even directly mentioned some things from said thread only to go on saying why i dont think they apply to smash, but yet i obviously didnt look past the title of this thread... ill quote the equivalent in your post just to highlight the difference "A large number of the replies in this thread appear to misrepresent either what exactly is being proposed or the goals of it."

now onto the actual reply, i assume you included my reply in the "No one proposed "segregation", or attempted to justify women's tournaments on the grounds of physiological ability level, yet those are being attacked as a way of shooting down the idea." part so i will clarify that that is not what i was trying to say, what i was trying to say was that, regardless of the original intent of the extra tournament it could potentially(and probably imo) be labeled as a "second class tournament" regardless of purpose. as a real example for this happening i want to point to the uefa europa league(football, or soccer for americans) which originally started out as a competition for the winners of the national cup of each country thats part of the uefa, but now it has just degraded into the second class tournament which is for all those clubs not good enough for the champions league, this was never the intent of the competition but that is what people have made of it... just a real life example of what i mean.
i also agree that i dont think the idea of women only tournaments is bad at all, i just dont think its a system that would work in the context of smash... and as for uncomfortable environments... i think that could very well be a large issue, looking at the immaturity of a lot of people who jump at the mere mention of a "grill" and think its funny, which it really isnt -_- but the issue is, how would u fix that, and i dont think women only tournaments would neccessarily help alleviate this issue, i could however, be wrong about that and i never claimed otherwise...

op pls, your emphasis on being rhetorical about the title thing makes me roll my eyes, take you less seriously and make me wanna tl;dr what you wanna say. x_x

anyway, I'll have to disagree on the idea of a female only tournament because someone in previous posts said "the intention is good, but the execution is bad." The intention is to support the female demographic and i think that's awesome and really cool to do that for female smashers. The bad part is the execution. One bad part is the smash community and the bad reputation that the smash community in general treats female smashers. the smash community is known to "grill" over a smasher's gender and sometimes they get sexist. Now think of this smash community spectating a female only smash tournament, it will likely be bad. this smash community will treat the female only tournament as though they are an attraction based on their gender. it spells this to this community, "BECAUSE THEY ARE GRILL, THEY GET THEIR OWN TOURNAMENT?" the attention that being a certain gender means you get your own tournament in the scope of this community will be non-progressive and a reinforcement of widening the gap between female gamers and male gamers.

Notice my language when i say this community. The reason this tournament idea is bad is because of this community that's mostly filled with emotionally immature and twitch memesters. I understand that there are emotionally mature, respectable people who can see the execution of this idea in a good way, but the sad fact is that they are a minority. Also, I don't really like the implications and the negative attention that this gives on female smashers. like, will this female smasher place the same in a gender-all tournament? that question is bringinig forth the idea of their gender to base their level of skill. that's bad and shouldn't even be considered a way to measure someone's skill.

 

[Wintropy]

I won't speak to the difficulty organizing local brackets because while I've never seen a lack of interest, I realize I live in a pretty densely populated area relatively speaking, with a pretty enthusiastic scene. At the tournaments I've been to, adding in a women's bracket as a side event, even if it's contingent week to week on the turnout, doesn't seem like it would harm anything. I also don't really think that lack of financial incentive is that big of a factor (though definitely correct me if I'm wrong). I don't only see the top players in my region coming back week after week. I personally doubt I'll ever even place in the money at a local and yet I keep going back because it's about the place and the people and the fun.

Oh, it definitely wouldn't harm anything. If the idea gains traction, it will either be of benefit to the community or peter out in its own time, but I don't think it would be actively detrimental. The point I'm making is that, at least in my experience, it's very difficult to convince TOs (especially of smaller tournaments) to justify new brackets without there being clear, stated interest (for example: despite my attempts to push the boat out, customs in my scene died before they even really began, since the national scene (I live in Ireland, for reference) has a blanket ban on customs and most top players here vehemently oppose them). We have a fair bit of difficulty organising and maintaining the brackets we have (as of our last local, we run brackets for Smash 4 singles, Smash 4 doubles, Melee and PM, all based on popular demand), I don't know if it's practical to run another bracket for the sake of generating interest that may or may not exist. TOs of smaller tournaments are understandably hesitant to try out new things that haven't been explicitly demanded, since there is greater pressure to perform well and attract interest from outside the immediate vicinity, and overburdening it with technically-challenging ephemera for the sake of "fringe interests" risks causing the entire enterprise to collapse in on itself. We only have a very small handful of regular female players in the national scene, so I don't know if there's anybody that we'd really be appealing to.

Thing is, I guess we won't know the interest is there unless we open the door and see what happens. It may well be the case that we don't have female players in the scene because we have not done enough to accommodate them or demonstrate that we are willing to consider their interests, and maybe we would discover that women-only tournaments would be a good first step in getting them to come. It's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation: if we do and it flops, we wasted considerable time and effort that could have been better used to maintain a more efficient tournament, potentially to the detriment of other brackets and wider interests; if we don't, we may never know if interest can indeed be generated and we may potentially lose out on a whole demographic of new players. There's no right or wrong answer, I'm just playing devil's advocate to see where we can go with this discussion.

EDIT: Typo.

 

[Shouxiao]

There is no need. Any one regardless of their race or gender is welcomed to Smash. If they wish to play on a pro level then all they have to do is prove themselves at tournaments.

The Fighting Game Community is the most diverse gaming community. At the same time no one ever tried to force diversity. People in their region simply had true interest in the game, start playing, and became a part of the community. No one is stopping or discouraging any one. Incidents may have happened on extremely rare occasions but that should not stop any one from playing Smash.

 

[p1ay6ack]

There is no need. Any one regardless of their race or gender is welcomed to Smash. If they wish to play on a pro level then all they have to do is prove themselves at tournaments.

The Fighting Game Community is the most diverse gaming community. At the same time no one ever tried to force diversity. People in their region simply had true interest in the game, start playing, and became a part of the community. No one is stopping or discouraging any one. Incidents may have happened on extremely rare occasions but that should not stop any one from playing Smash.

If only the smash communiity was welcoming and acceptive as you, then the intention of this idea will be greatly executed. The way the smash community is now, I just think that a constructive thing that can be built from this is exposing the negative behavioral traits after a female only tournament and having that exposure bring attention to etiquette the way we should treat a smasher regardless of gender

 

[aεrgiα]

op pls, your emphasis on being rhetorical about the title thing makes me roll my eyes, take you less seriously and make me wanna tl;dr what you wanna say. x_x

anyway, I'll have to disagree on the idea of a female only tournament because someone in previous posts said "the intention is good, but the execution is bad." The intention is to support the female demographic and i think that's awesome and really cool to do that for female smashers. The bad part is the execution. One bad part is the smash community and the bad reputation that the smash community in general treats female smashers. the smash community is known to "grill" over a smasher's gender and sometimes they get sexist. Now think of this smash community spectating a female only smash tournament, it will likely be bad. this smash community will treat the female only tournament as though they are an attraction based on their gender. it spells this to this community, "BECAUSE THEY ARE GRILL, THEY GET THEIR OWN TOURNAMENT?" the attention that being a certain gender means you get your own tournament in the scope of this community will be non-progressive and a reinforcement of widening the gap between female gamers and male gamers.

Notice my language when i say this community. The reason this tournament idea is bad is because of this community that's mostly filled with emotionally immature and twitch memesters. I understand that there are emotionally mature, respectable people who can see the execution of this idea in a good way, but the sad fact is that they are a minority. Also, I don't really like the implications and the negative attention that this gives on female smashers. like, will this female smasher place the same in a gender-all tournament? that question is bringinig forth the idea of their gender to base their level of skill. that's bad and shouldn't even be considered a way to measure someone's skill.

i assume u mean me with op since u quoted me? in which case how am i placing emphasis on being rhetorical? i intended that part to be sarcastic because, well, a stupid comment deserves a stupid (in this case rhetorical) answer, by no means did i inted that to be emphasised in any way, in fact i gave that part no thought whatsoever, and i dont see how it detracts from anything else ive written, but if it bothers u, sorry?
sadly the rest of your post is true (sadly refering to its content)

 

[Thinkaman]

The biggest disparity between the chess case presented and Smash is the source of money. As Jennifer Shahade herself said in the quoted segments, it all comes down to money.

In Smash, there is no organization able to seriously subsidize a women's only bracket. Most pots remain small and grassroots-based, and I can't imagine community harmony and inclusion resulting from any subsection of the community getting an exclusive pot of their own subsidized with funds directly taking from grassroots funding from the broader events.

Even in chess, this does sort of rub me the wrong way. Why should all chess players, male and female, be forced to pay into an organizational structure that subsidizes Jennifer Shahade's lifestyle? She's clearly a skilled played, and achieved such in spite of pressure against women in chess, but is that something that does indeed merit specific financial subsidy by all other organized chess players? From my viewpoint, the answer is neither clearly yes or no.

I'm imagining turnouts of seven, maybe eight entrants if this were done at a local. Many of whom are not regular tournament goers, so their poor skill will inhibit the idea that women are bad at Smash.

This. A women's Smash tourney is probably not a Field of Dreams situation.

I always notice that female players always seem to get time for friendlies with the resident pros. It's like, how do they do it!?

A variety of psychological factors play into this, ranging from "benevolent stereotyping" to "downright sketchy."

Sorry for the not so serious answer, but much of what has been said in this thread is already accurate (and surprisingly civil! Way to go!). Though one day I really want to see a Couples Doubles tournament. It's the cutest damned thing that I just can't get out of my head.

Oh, so female players are only welcome in the community to the extent to which they relate to (namely date) the male players? </Devil'sAdvocate>

There is no need. Any one regardless of their race or gender is welcomed to Smash.

Whether or not a person feels welcomed is up to them, not us.

The Fighting Game Community is the most diverse gaming community.

......................................what?

 

[aεrgiα]

I won't speak to the difficulty organizing local brackets because while I've never seen a lack of interest, I realize I live in a pretty densely populated area relatively speaking, with a pretty enthusiastic scene. At the tournaments I've been to, adding in a women's bracket as a side event, even if it's contingent week to week on the turnout, doesn't seem like it would harm anything. I also don't really think that lack of financial incentive is that big of a factor (though definitely correct me if I'm wrong). I don't only see the top players in my region coming back week after week. I personally doubt I'll ever even place in the money at a local and yet I keep going back because it's about the place and the people and the fun.

You make a great point about other demographics. I get the impression that in gaming, the biggest imbalance between interest and participation exists with women. But anything that encourages a more inclusive and diverse community is okay in my eyes.



I agree with the issues you take in how he responded. In fact, you're highlighting exactly what I wanted to do, which is to explain the legitimate concerns that led to the assumptions he made, without making any assumptions myself.

Also I was not thinking of your reply as misrepresenting anything. Chess has women's leagues and women's titles. And you presented some salient points about the implication of doing that in Smash. I however am not advocating women's leagues or power rankings or anything like that. I see the same problems with that that many have pointed out. But if the womens only events are meant to be access, rather than infrastructure, the second class tournament stigma becomes moot. The goal isn't glory or recognition for women's events, but to use them as a way to give women who want to play Smash but feel unwelcome by the scene a place to get their foot in the door. Deepseadiva even referred to them as stepping stone events.

And I do believe strongly that they have the potential to shape the collective attitude and diversity of the scene as well very little risk for trying.

i dont think it would be moot in the sense that it could be seen as "segregation" by the potential new players and also be looked down upon by the community at large, which could in turn estrange the participants of these tournaments rather than making them feel more welcomed :/

 

[p1ay6ack]

i assume u mean me with op since u quoted me? in which case how am i placing emphasis on being rhetorical? i intended that part to be sarcastic because, well, a stupid comment deserves a stupid (in this case rhetorical) answer, by no means did i inted that to be emphasised in any way, in fact i gave that part no thought whatsoever, and i dont see how it detracts from anything else ive written, but if it bothers u, sorry?
sadly the rest of your post is true (sadly refering to its content)

yea, the rhetoric is your sarcasm in your post. how you're doing it? the way you're showing word play and captilizing certain parts of that person's point. how did you not intend emphasis in your post when you capitilize certain words lol? that's showing emphasis. i wouldn't say it detracts from the argument... but i would say it highlights some people's opinions in a non-constructive way lol. its okay. I have recently heard that Max Ketchum was trying to organize some female-only tournament but I don't know his means to do it? online only? in person?

 

[aεrgiα]

yea, the rhetoric is your sarcasm in your post. how you're doing it? the way you're showing word play and captilizing certain parts of that person's point. how did you not intend emphasis in your post when you capitilize certain words lol? that's showing emphasis. i wouldn't say it detracts from the argument... but i would say it highlights some people's opinions in a non-constructive way lol. its okay. I have recently heard that Max Ketchum was trying to organize some female-only tournament but I don't know his means to do it? online only? in person?

oh in that case yes, i thought u were talking about only the rhetorical part("but yet i obviously didnt look past the title of this thread") when u were talking about emphasis, no word play was intended but the emphasis on his comment was, it was a rude comment which, intention or not, basically disregarded every post/argument in this thread on the basis that no one even informed themselves about what the op was talking about, which isnt true and i didnt like that still, since it bothered u, sorry

enough about that though, on a more constructive note thats news to me, and id be very interested in hearing the results of that if it happens or has already happened(and, since its meant more as a stepping stone i dont think making it online would make a difference in the early stages in the matter of accessibility, though ofc it does make a difference regarding competition -input lag and lag in general-), because i dont think the idea in and of itself is a bad one, just that it isnt applicable to smash

 

[Shouxiao]

If only the smash communiity was welcoming and acceptive as you, then the intention of this idea will be greatly executed. The way the smash community is now, I just think that a constructive thing that can be built from this is exposing the negative behavioral traits after a female only tournament and having that exposure bring attention to etiquette the way we should treat a smasher regardless of gender

The biggest disparity between the chess case presented and Smash is the source of money. As Jennifer Shahade herself said in the quoted segments, it all comes down to money.

In Smash, there is no organization able to seriously subsidize a women's only bracket. Most pots remain small and grassroots-based, and I can't imagine community harmony and inclusion resulting from any subsection of the community getting an exclusive pot of their own subsidized with funds directly taking from grassroots funding from the broader events.

Even in chess, this does sort of rub me the wrong way. Why should all chess players, male and female, be forced to pay into an organizational structure that subsidizes Jennifer Shahade's lifestyle? She's clearly a skilled played, and achieved such in spite of pressure against women in chess, but is that something that does indeed merit specific financial subsidy by all other organized chess players? From my viewpoint, the answer is neither clearly yes or no.



This. A women's Smash tourney is probably not a Field of Dreams situation.



A variety of psychological factors play into this, ranging from "benevolent stereotyping" to "downright sketchy."



Oh, so female players are only welcome in the community to the extent to which they relate to (namely date) the male players? </Devil'sAdvocate>



Whether or not a person feels welcomed is up to them, not us.



......................................what?

The fighting game community is actually diverse. In fact it is actually the most diverse. One can find many ethnic groups. Sure some ethnic groups are dominated in a fighting game scene but you still see a huge variety of people from places like China, Japan, Korea, SEA, blacks from US, and so on.

 

[Runic_SSB]

The end-all be-all of all of this is that this just isn't feasible. Local tournaments already don't get that many people, and I doubt anyone who's not already invested in the community is willing to travel more than 20 minutes to an event that'll only have like 5 other people. Plus the financial issue of having to set up a venue and all that. I personally don't disagree with the idea of female-only tourneys, but for Smash it's not gonna work.

And, as it pertains to one special case, don't pressure a girl into sending pics of her feet by lying about dying.

If Li'l Jon and Macklemore had a baby it still wouldn't have enough what.

 

[Big-Cat]

The Fighting Game Community is the most diverse gaming community. At the same time no one ever tried to force diversity. People in their region simply had true interest in the game, start playing, and became a part of the community. No one is stopping or discouraging any one. Incidents may have happened on extremely rare occasions but that should not stop any one from playing Smash.

It's nowhere near the diversity of MOBA communities, but it's slowly getting there. You are right though that, to my knowledge, the FGC has not tried to force diversity in recent years unless you want to count that one woman's invitational at EVO.

To answer why there aren't many girl players in Smash, you have to answer why there aren't many girl console gamers in comparison to male console gamers. Part of it is really marketing. Even when you have the gender option, the male is usually more prominent in marketing, if not the only one to show up in marketing. There are at least two recent exceptions to this.

The Wii Fit Trainer is always shown as a girl outside of the games. The female one opened the Wii Fit U direct and was the original one announced for Smash 4. Then there's Splatoon where the Inkling girl (Woomy) had way more of a following than the male one (Ng'yes). You see more Woomy than Ng'yes when you're playing the game and Woomy takes the focus on the boxart.

 

[Crudele]

If Li'l Jon and Macklemore had a baby it still wouldn't have enough what.

Uh, yeah, that happened like a few months ago. Some WC sonic main, if I remember correctly.