• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Should Smash consider women-only tournaments? Clear numbers say its great for community growth.

Status
Not open for further replies.

CrazyPerson

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
436
When 60% of gamers are only 9% of attendance obviously some wall is there.
Something that always bugs me about encouraging diversity is the assumption there is a problem. Measurements aren't always accurate when there are variables. While a foot can always be a foot, and a gallon a gallon any person's choice to attend or not attend a tournament can be based on deciding the time doesn't work with there job schedule, family responsibilities, the fear of being treated a certian way, not feeling like a good enough player. Every player's decision to attend or not has countless reasons... grouping women together and assuming it is fear they will be treated poorly isn't fair to them, or the community.

see while i agree with you, the thing that matters isnt what they think, what matters is what they actually say. especially when im just looking into the community for the first time, how do i know whether the people are joking or are being serious? and even jokes can get annoying, extreme example: if i meet a woman and ask her what shes doing outside the kitchen, it doesnt matter that i actually dont think like that, thats probably the last time ill ever speak with her ;) first impressions make a difference, and sadly twitch chat, regardless of its trolling nature, is not a good first impression :(


Probably true... something that tends to get lost in interactions though is the relationship of the people involved. There were a couple of girls I used to play an online game with, and I heard the gasps from others when I made certain remarks... those gasps came from thinking what I said was terrible but not knowing how they are welcome to fire right back and we all laugh at it. Our friendship included quite a bit of "inappropriate" humor. That happens in the real world to... people make jokes about steroptypes to someone and both people laugh about it. With that said, one has to be careful with that kind of humor with people they don't yet know.... as until they know you aren't that sexist pig it may not feel like a joke.

It is always hard to walk into a group of unfamiliar people and understand what is going on if you aren't familiar with the dynamic of individuals, and the culture of it as a whole. If a fear is there to begin with it is naturally easy to find evidence that the fear is well founded. (human nature and this extends well beyond smash) Humor of any kind can scare people away... our community is no exception to it. Rules are often added to keep the piece... but how much do we want to limit the interactions between friends?


leaving the reasons for why there are fewer women aside since we dont know exactly why it is(and its probably the biggest discussion topic in this thread besides the original point), i want to point out that your misunderstanding the op, what the op was addressing was basically your what he suggested was NOT to run a tournament for males only and a tournament for females only, but rather to run a main tournament(open for all genders) and run a separate tournament only for women, the purpose of which isnt necessarily to be the most competitive and separate genders because of that, but rather to offer a platform for woman to "get a foot in the door" to the competitive smash scene without having "the awkwardness of walking into a place that is filled with the opposite gender" with the final goal being integrating those female players into the open for all tournaments.

I see that is the point of it... but I don't like the idea of locking anyone out of a tournament for any reason but skill. (previously mentioned ameture tournaments are a good thing IMO.)

I prefer to look at a person as an individual rather than classify them by gender, race, or anything else. On that note.. there are lots of people who could use help getting a foot in the door... and I don't much like it when some individuals get in based on something so superficial while others are locked out and have to get to the same place without help.

Once the game starts... everyone is a smasher. Gender and anything else we humans have decided to classify ourselves by doesn't matter... and it never should. I want the community to be one of acceptance of all who walk in the door... and invitations to attend should be done without discrimination or so called "reverse discrimination" of any sort.

 

Beach

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
119
Location
Dayton, Ohio
NNID
CallMeBeach
Having a women only tournament segments part of the community which is never a good idea in any aspect.
 

FSLink

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 5, 2005
Messages
259
NNID
FSLink
I prefer to look at a person as an individual rather than classify them by gender, race, or anything else. On that note.. there are lots of people who could use help getting a foot in the door... and I don't much like it when some individuals get in based on something so superficial while others are locked out and have to get to the same place without help.

Once the game starts... everyone is a smasher. Gender and anything else we humans have decided to classify ourselves by doesn't matter... and it never should. I want the community to be one of acceptance of all who walk in the door... and invitations to attend should be done without discrimination or so called "reverse discrimination" of any sort.
You're still missing the point. I'd say most of the community is accepting to all genders/race/sexual orientation/etc, yes, but the point is to offer opportunity to women who are a large part of the gaming community yet has low turnout for eSports in general. At the end of the day, everyone is a Smasher, but also at the end of the day, there's still discrimination around. Maybe the Smash community overall lacks it, but there's still a stigma around gaming in general which may be one of the causes women don't want to compete.

Plus, it's a tournament. Foot in the door is just showing up to a tourney and having fun, and the end goal is to show up to more tourneys.

Is a woman's only tournament the best idea? Maybe, maybe not, but studies show (which some in this topic didn't even bother reading) that it's likely worth a shot, or at least something in that direction would be worthwhile pursuing.

Having a women only tournament segments part of the community which is never a good idea in any aspect.
The idea is to have more women show up and get the spotlight when they are typically the minority, not to segregate.
 
Last edited:

DunnoBro

The Free-est
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,864
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro
I guess I'll summarize my position with an analogy:

I think getting more women in STEM is a very important goal, and respect efforts to both dispel negative stigma and ensure proper recognition to female accomplishments in these fields.

But I'd never suggest that female-exclusive engineering schools would be a productive answer, and fear that such might even do more harm than good.
I believe the idea of female-only tournaments is closer to engineering scholarships for women rather than schools for them. (At least side events.) It provides an expedited networking and opportunity process similar to scholarships that get certain groups installed somewhere, rather than only having a receptacle for said groups to congregate.

Of course, female-tournaments as main events would more akin to specialized single-sex education which would be... not optimal. (And are a bad idea on many logistical and ideological levels)
 
Last edited:

wizrad

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2015
Messages
496
Location
Europe, hopefully
NNID
nin10L3ro
3DS FC
4871-4875-5333
Is the OP specifically referring to a female only side event? Because the creepers would just hang around the girls' night tourney while in between matches in the mainline one.
 
Last edited:

ARISTOS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
741
Location
The Empire
Is the OP specifically referring to a female only side event? Because the creepers would just hang around the girls' night tourney while in between matches in the mainline one.
I'm not going to speak for OP but the argument is to run female-only tournaments that are seen as side events for the main open tournament.

As for the creepers comment, I think you should have a bit more faith in your community. There is no way to predict if this happens or not; the fear that this might happen should in no way keep people from trying this out.
 

deepseadiva

Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
8,001
Location
CO
3DS FC
1779-0766-2622
I'm not going to speak for OP but the argument is to run female-only tournaments that are seen as side events for the main open tournament.
Yes. Again, these would only be stepping stone events that lead these new players to the open main events.
 

Maraphy

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
750
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
NNID
Marraph
3DS FC
3780-9036-1349
It seems like a lot of people agree that the answer to the topic is no, there shouldn't be a separate tournament for women. Wintropy made a good statement early on that the reason there aren't many female players might mostly be due to lack of interest in competitive Smash. (Though as NEKO' mentioned, she realizes that it can be a sort of unwelcoming environment, so that's probably a hurdle for girls who are on the fence maybe)

I think the best way to go about this would be to reach out to female players who already like smash but aren't playing it competitively and invite them to tournaments / streams / parties etc. Get them involved in the community, show them cool videos of top players, etc. If they're interested, they'll join. For many people though, the friendships they've made through Smash keeps them around, so like it's been said it's important that we try to be a welcoming, respectful (non-prejudiced) community.
 

Sleek Media

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
1,399
Just when I think this site has hit rock bottom, you start copying the worst topics from Reddit. FFS.
 

deepseadiva

Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
8,001
Location
CO
3DS FC
1779-0766-2622
Just when I think this site has hit rock bottom, you start copying the worst topics from Reddit. FFS.
Women-only gaming has existed since the 1920s. Even esports have adopted the (proven successful!!) model, such as Counterstrike.

It's not a new idea and also not the worst.

The worst topic from Reddit was letting 32 random players skip pools for Gensis 3. :urg:
 

Sleek Media

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
1,399
Women-only gaming has existed since the 1920s. Even esports have adopted the (proven successful!!) model, such as Counterstrike.

It's not a new idea and also not the worst.

The worst topic from Reddit was letting 32 random players skip pools for Gensis 3. :urg:
Female only leagues existed since the 1920s because women are generally smaller and less athletic than men, and can't compete with them directly in a real sport. This is a video game. I'm sick of the BS identity politics. Shall we have a separate league for black people too? Maybe we can have special tournaments for the poor?

If women want to play, they will play. They don't need your white knighting to make a special little safe place for them. Grow up.
 

aεrgiα

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
265
Female only leagues existed since the 1920s because women are generally smaller and less athletic than men, and can't compete with them directly in a real sport. This is a video game. I'm sick of the BS identity politics. Shall we have a separate league for black people too? Maybe we can have special tournaments for the poor?

If women want to play, they will play. They don't need your white knighting to make a special little safe place for them. Grow up.
...there was a good, civil discussion going on about why or why this wouldnt work in the context of smash and whether its a good idea in the first place, and then u come in, contribute NOTHING to the topic, basically make fun of the topic, telling the op to grow up(for no reason whatsoever) etc. seems to me like you need to grow up -_-

"if women want to play, they will play" erm nope, if theres an environment i know i will be uncomfortable in then, regardless of how much i like the game, i will not put myself in that environment, whether the smash community is such an environment is a different discussion entirely, but saying if people want to play they will come is looking at it very onesidedly, you accuse him/her of white knighting... erm where? how? (s)hes suggesting an idea which could potentially help grow the smash scene and asking for opinions on it... and in a civil manner at that, thats more mature than what your comments come across as.
what im doing right now could be considered white knighting, what the op did can't...
 
Last edited:

CrazyPerson

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
436
You're still missing the point. I'd say most of the community is accepting to all genders/race/sexual orientation/etc, yes, but the point is to offer opportunity to women who are a large part of the gaming community yet has low turnout for eSports in general. At the end of the day, everyone is a Smasher, but also at the end of the day, there's still discrimination around. Maybe the Smash community overall lacks it, but there's still a stigma around gaming in general which may be one of the causes women don't want to compete.

Plus, it's a tournament. Foot in the door is just showing up to a tourney and having fun, and the end goal is to show up to more tourneys.

Is a woman's only tournament the best idea? Maybe, maybe not, but studies show (which some in this topic didn't even bother reading) that it's likely worth a shot, or at least something in that direction would be worthwhile pursuing.



The idea is to have more women show up and get the spotlight when they are typically the minority, not to segregate.

I get the point... I just disagree with making it a goal, especially in a way that gives some help getting in the door for superficial reasons... race, gender, sexual orientation... all pointless, while in the process denying it to others who could benefit just as much from help getting in.

The fact that there are male players winning does nothing for me, a male. They aren't sharing the winnings with me... They aren't saying "another guy! I will help him improve... but no no girls eww." (I suspect the opposite would more often be true, if worded less sarcastically and cynically.)

Treat everyone like an individual human, judge them as people, good and bad, for who they have chosen to be instead of something given to them by genetics.

Jude them as smashers for their skill set... and have the veterans give advise to the newer people willing to take it.

I think when we get caught up in grouping people together and picking and choosing what groups we choose to give help to... we lose individuality... which is something I hate seeing in the world and don't want coming into the game that genetically speaking appears to be on an even playing field.


In conclusion, I am for helping any person who wants to get into the smash scene get there... I am not for picking groups based on superficial reasons while ignoring others.
 
Last edited:

Sleek Media

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
1,399
...there was a good, civil discussion going on about why or why this wouldnt work in the context of smash and whether its a good idea in the first place, and then u come in, contribute NOTHING to the topic, basically make fun of the topic, telling the op to grow up(for no reason whatsoever) etc. seems to me like you need to grow up -_-

"if women want to play, they will play" erm nope, if theres an environment i know i will be uncomfortable in then, regardless of how much i like the game, i will not put myself in that environment, whether the smash community is such an environment is a different discussion entirely, but saying if people want to play they will come is looking at it very onesidedly, you accuse him/her of white knighting... erm where? how? (s)hes suggesting an idea which could potentially help grow the smash scene and asking for opinions on it... and in a civil manner at that, thats more mature than what your comments come across as.
what im doing right now could be considered white knighting, what the op did can't...
Oh yeah, "no YOU grow up" is some real mature discussion. Sorry to interrupt the kindergarten debate team with some COMMON KNOWLEDGE.

"How can we mask our sexism under the guise of growing the community" is hardly a topic to seriously consider in the first place. Do you go to a gym? Do you see female-only weight rooms in an effort to grow the numbers of women using smith machines? Do you see female-only auto mechanic schools? Do you see female-only programming companies? The idea that we need to "grow" the community by introducing segregation is not only stupid, but morally abhorrent. You are a special, dangerous kind of stupid for not only supporting it, but also attempting to promote the idea and influence others. I don't say "grow up" as an empty insult. I say it as a specific insult: only a fool or a child could believe such nonsense.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
Oh yeah, "no YOU grow up" is some real mature discussion. Sorry to interrupt the kindergarten debate team with some COMMON KNOWLEDGE.

"How can we mask our sexism under the guise of growing the community" is hardly a topic to seriously consider in the first place. Do you go to a gym? Do you see female-only weight rooms in an effort to grow the numbers of women using smith machines? Do you see female-only auto mechanic schools? Do you see female-only programming companies? The idea that we need to "grow" the community by introducing segregation is not only stupid, but morally abhorrent. You are a special, dangerous kind of stupid for not only supporting it, but also attempting to promote the idea and influence others. I don't say "grow up" as an empty insult. I say it as a specific insult: only a fool or a child could believe such nonsense.
Honestly, this is the more childish response. You're so afraid of the "PC boogeyman" that you've decided the status quo is better than making an effort to show women that our community is welcoming. As I said in my last post, you can't start pushing for totally equal advancement when one group has been discriminated against for years. It's a great way to make sure they never catch up.
 

Wiimas123

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 4, 2015
Messages
102
Having women have their own tournament would only discriminate them further. Women don't need special treatment. This wouldn't welcome them to the Smash community, it would welcome them to the female Smash community which isn't the goal.
 
Last edited:

Sleek Media

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
1,399
Honestly, this is the more childish response. You're so afraid of the "PC boogeyman" that you've decided the status quo is better than making an effort to show women that our community is welcoming. As I said in my last post, you can't start pushing for totally equal advancement when one group has been discriminated against for years. It's a great way to make sure they never catch up.
By all means, prove that women have been discriminated against in smash.

See, if you're just making this up, and you are, it not a "PC boogeyman". It's a PC reality, and you are the liar spreading it. If you have to lie to make your point, then your point sucks. You know what kind of person lies to try and win an argument? Children.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
By all means, prove that women have been discriminated against in smash.

See, if you're just making this up, and you are, it not a "PC boogeyman". It's a PC reality, and you are the liar spreading it. If you have to lie to make your point, then your point sucks. You know what kind of person lies to try and win an argument? Children.
Try not to use ad hominem, thanks.

If I were talking about discrimination in Smash specifically, we'd jump directly to Twitch chat. But I wasn't - I'm saying in the world period. In the gaming world particularly, we know women have had (or heard of) any number of negative experiences. So the question is, what shows them that Smash is any different?
 

aεrgiα

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
265
Oh yeah, "no YOU grow up" is some real mature discussion. Sorry to interrupt the kindergarten debate team with some COMMON KNOWLEDGE.

"How can we mask our sexism under the guise of growing the community" is hardly a topic to seriously consider in the first place. Do you go to a gym? Do you see female-only weight rooms in an effort to grow the numbers of women using smith machines? Do you see female-only auto mechanic schools? Do you see female-only programming companies? The idea that we need to "grow" the community by introducing segregation is not only stupid, but morally abhorrent. You are a special, dangerous kind of stupid for not only supporting it, but also attempting to promote the idea and influence others. I don't say "grow up" as an empty insult. I say it as a specific insult: only a fool or a child could believe such nonsense.
my point was that everything youve said so far is way more immature and childish than anything hes said, thank you for proving my point with your reply :) also just for your knowledge im actually not in favor of implementing this system in smash so thank you for insulting me for an opinion i dont even have. ive seen ladies only classes in gyms plenty of times i fail to see the comparison between the two though... you are a special, dangerous kind of stupid for randomly insulting people because you dont agree with them, for thinking your opinion is the only acceptable opinion and everything else is just wrong, stupid and childish.
 
Last edited:

Wiimas123

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 4, 2015
Messages
102
Try not to use ad hominem, thanks.

If I were talking about discrimination in Smash specifically, we'd jump directly to Twitch chat. But I wasn't - I'm saying in the world period. In the gaming world particularly, we know women have had (or heard of) any number of negative experiences. So the question is, what shows them that Smash is any different?
Women have been discriminated against because people think that they aren't capable of doing things that men can do. Giving them their own tournament only discriminates against them more by showing that they can't compete with men.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
Women have been discriminated against because people think that they aren't capable of doing things that men can do. Giving them their own tournament only discriminates against them more by showing that they can't compete with men.
That's not how that works, though. The issue is they aren't showing up to these mixed tournaments (in large numbers) in the first place. No one is saying bar them from the mixed tournaments - just have woman-only events as well in order to give them a space to themselves. If it's anything like sports with a similar structure, some women will enter both.
 

Sleek Media

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
1,399
User was warned for this post
Try not to use ad hominem, thanks.

If I were talking about discrimination in Smash specifically, we'd jump directly to Twitch chat. But I wasn't - I'm saying in the world period. In the gaming world particularly, we know women have had (or heard of) any number of negative experiences. So the question is, what shows them that Smash is any different?
Try not to use anecdotes, thanks. Try to answer the question, thanks. Show me, with proof, where women have been discriminated against in Smash.

That's not how that works, though. The issue is they aren't showing up to these mixed tournaments (in large numbers) in the first place. No one is saying bar them from the mixed tournaments - just have woman-only events as well in order to give them a space to themselves. If it's anything like sports with a similar structure, some women will enter both.
That's exactly how it works. Your perception of reality is upside-down.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
That's exactly how it works. Your perception of reality is upside-down.
Again - total equality works well for those that are already on top.

Try not to use anecdotes, thanks. Try to answer the question, thanks. Show me, with proof, where women have been discriminated against in Smash.
I already said exactly what I meant. Please don't strawman.
 

Wiimas123

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 4, 2015
Messages
102
That's not how that works, though. The issue is they aren't showing up to these mixed tournaments (in large numbers) in the first place. No one is saying bar them from the mixed tournaments - just have woman-only events as well in order to give them a space to themselves. If it's anything like sports with a similar structure, some women will enter both.
The goal of women only tournaments is to have women feel comfortable with Smash but it doesn't do that. That's what this whole topic is about. Women won't get comfortable with Smash if we make them feel lesser. That'll also stop women from coming to mixed tournaments.
 

Sleek Media

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 29, 2006
Messages
1,399
There's nothing stopping women from entering tournaments. There is no institutionalized prejudice against them. The worst you can point to is trolls on twitch which, surprise, also tear down the male players for looks, personality, or whatever else they can think of. Maybe you think that women are too weak to ignore trolls, or too stupid to play the game on the level of men, and this is your way of compensating for your own guilt. I don't care. All I wanted to do was point out how foolish you two are, and explain how stupid your suggestion is, and I've accomplished that. Frankly, neither of you have any sort of power or influence (thankfully) in the community, and since there's no convincing a pair of fanatics, there's really nothing else for me to say in this thread. Have fun kids!
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
The goal of women only tournaments is to have women feel comfortable with Smash but it doesn't do that. That's what this whole topic is about. Women won't get comfortable with Smash if we make them feel lesser. That'll also stop women from coming to mixed tournaments.
It has worked for other communities, so I think it's worth a shot. See, it's not about making them feel lesser - it's about giving them a space where they can feel more comfortable attending. Why is that such a bad thing to other men?

You get things like "guilt" and the like being thrown around, and for what? What makes you guys so uncomfortable with trying to do something for women in our scene?

There's nothing stopping women from entering tournaments. There is no institutionalized prejudice against them. The worst you can point to is trolls on twitch which, surprise, also tear down the male players for looks, personality, or whatever else they can think of. Maybe you think that women are too weak to ignore trolls, or too stupid to play the game on the level of men, and this is your way of compensating for your own guilt. I don't care. All I wanted to do was point out how foolish you two are, and explain how stupid your suggestion is, and I've accomplished that. Frankly, neither of you have any sort of power or influence (thankfully) in the community, and since there's no convincing a pair of fanatics, there's really nothing else for me to say in this thread. Have fun kids!
All you did was use logical fallacies and half-formed arguments, lol. Oh well, bye :-)
 

aεrgiα

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
265
There's nothing stopping women from entering tournaments. There is no institutionalized prejudice against them. The worst you can point to is trolls on twitch which, surprise, also tear down the male players for looks, personality, or whatever else they can think of. Maybe you think that women are too weak to ignore trolls, or too stupid to play the game on the level of men, and this is your way of compensating for your own guilt. I don't care. All I wanted to do was point out how foolish you two are, and explain how stupid your suggestion is, and I've accomplished that. Frankly, neither of you have any sort of power or influence (thankfully) in the community, and since there's no convincing a pair of fanatics, there's really nothing else for me to say in this thread. Have fun kids!
frankly all youve acomplished is making youself look like an immature little child, thankfully you have no power in the community(at least not anywhere near me) looking at how selfish, arrogant and adverse to reasoning you are. you say convincing, but pretty much every argument u raised was, in some form or another refuted, and you went on to ignore them, well done, youve sure done very well in convincing no-one, you can be proud of that :)
 

ARISTOS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
741
Location
The Empire
Let's cool this thread down a bit.

There's nothing stopping women from entering tournaments. There is no institutionalized prejudice against them. The worst you can point to is trolls on twitch which, surprise, also tear down the male players for looks, personality, or whatever else they can think of. Maybe you think that women are too weak to ignore trolls, or too stupid to play the game on the level of men, and this is your way of compensating for your own guilt. I don't care. All I wanted to do was point out how foolish you two are, and explain how stupid your suggestion is, and I've accomplished that. Frankly, neither of you have any sort of power or influence (thankfully) in the community, and since there's no convincing a pair of fanatics, there's really nothing else for me to say in this thread. Have fun kids!
This has been answered-There is also nothing stopping women from joining engineering programs, yet they still enter in poor numbers. Why is that? There is nothing stop men from joining nursing programs, yet they also still enter in poor numbers. Why is that? Twitch trolls don't exist in those areas as well.

In many institutions, programs set up to encourage minority participation have been found to be successful in not only retaining minority members already there but also in encouraging new members to join.

No one here is saying that women are weak and **** at Smash. We're putting forward a hypothesis that an atmosphere where they can share a space with others like them, they may be more enticed to stay in the community. This has already proven to work in chess, so what's the big risk? If it fails, we simply go back to the status quo.

The goal of women only tournaments is to have women feel comfortable with Smash but it doesn't do that. That's what this whole topic is about. Women won't get comfortable with Smash if we make them feel lesser. That'll also stop women from coming to mixed tournaments.
The chess example just proved it did provide a comfortable space. Do you have a counterargument to prove that this is false/wouldn't work in Smash?

Let's all chill out fam
 
Last edited:

deepseadiva

Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
8,001
Location
CO
3DS FC
1779-0766-2622
Female only leagues existed since the 1920s because women are generally smaller and less athletic than men, and can't compete with them directly in a real sport. This is a video game.
Actually, women only sports is much much older than women only gaming. Women's sports has existed since the first Olympic games. But that's not what we're talking about.... Women's GAMING is relatively new. The World Chess Federation established the World Women's Chess Championship in 1927.

And I present those championships in response. They worked. These championships worked very very well, in fact. Chess now enjoys droves of women participants, and at least two contenders in the world top 100.

Other esports have seen similar results.

Can Smash even name a single woman top player...? A tournament with more than... 10 women entrants? We can link thousands of matches that are dude vs dude, but can we even pull up a single match thats woman vs woman?

I'm glad some have seen this obvious opportunity for growth. ^^
 
Last edited:

aεrgiα

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
265
Let's cool this thread down a bit.



This has been answered-There is also nothing stopping women from joining engineering programs, yet they still enter in poor numbers. Why is that? There is nothing stop men from joining nursing programs, yet they also still enter in poor numbers. Why is that? Twitch trolls don't exist in those areas as well.

In many institutions, programs set up to encourage minority participation have been found to be successful in not only retaining minority members already there but also in encouraging new members to join.

No one here is saying that women are weak and **** at Smash. We're putting forward a hypothesis that an atmosphere where they can share a space with others like them, they may be more enticed to stay in the community. This has already proven to work in chess, so what's the big risk? If it fails, we simply go back to the status quo.



The chess example just proved it did provide a comfortable space. Do you have a counterargument to prove that this is false/wouldn't work in Smash?

Let's all chill out fam
dont worry, it was one guy who was being unreasonable and overly aggressive, but hes left now so it should return to former levels of "civility" :) and dont bother trying to reason, i tried but it fell on deaf ears :(
 
Last edited:

F. Stein

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
237
Location
Wyoming
I've been reading the argument since it started, maybe I can venture an opinion.


My girlfriend likes video games. We play everything together except Smash but her reason for not coming with me to my area's weekly tournaments are not only because the people make it awkward for her to be there. We've talked about it and agreed that pretty much everyone that comes to the weekly in my area is a decent person and hasn't done anything specifically offensive, except for our resident Falco player ;) Falco mains are obnoxious maybe? Fact is, she thinks that the game looks fun. She plays at home with me and my siblings but she will not play at a weekly. I'll expound on the situation that me and my girlfriend face and then offer a solution that I think would help not only her situation but other female smashers of veteran, rookie and novice skill level as well as all rookie and novice smashers in general.

Here is the problem that we face, that prevents us from playing smash together: the attitude of reception to her presence as the only girl at the weekly and the fact that she is a very novice player in the game prevent her from feeling comfortable in the environment and making friend but I believe this could be overcome if there was more welcoming exposure at my weekly for a novice player.

So, the first point is that she is the only girl at the event. That makes her feel out of place, a few people ask her if she's a player and a few ask her who her boyfriend is while the majority of the people don't really say anything/ignore her presence. While nothing can be done to make these people act differently, aside from getting to know each of them and creating friendships that would bypass any awkwardness, each of these things makes her uncomfortable in a different way. Being asked if she is a player is probably the least offensive but she has to acknowledge that she is just watching, people that ask her this don't really make her feel uncomfortable and can be labeled as the 'friendly' people. Being asked who her boyfriend is comes off as a slightly offensive comment because it implies that she couldn't possibly be playing, further enforced by the fact that she isn't playing, this makes her feel like she shouldn't be there at all. She participates in a lot of sports that people usually deem to be 'male dominated sports,' for instance she is nationally ranked in sporting clay events, so to be faced with that comment is insulting and makes her want to participate less and not even watch. The people that ignore her and just stare or say nothing are probably the ones that make her feel the most awkward and make her acknowledge that she is the only female in the room in a way that makes her want to leave, not watch or participate in the future in any way. I'm giving you this for background information because it emphasizes how she feels and why it's hard for her to even just hang around and watch.

The second point that makes her feel awkward about participating in a weekly is that she is novice at the game and has no real way to pursue it or train meaningfully with other people to not be 'destroyed instantly.' As I said, she'll play for fun with me and with my siblings but the combination of how people react to her at my weekly and how much work she would have to do to catch up and compete meaningfully seems to be insurmountable. When I talk about competing meaningfully I mean not going 0-2 in both winner's and loser's brackets, or not being eliminated in the quickest way possible. She's at that level of new, we were all there once except for the Sasuke Uchihas of our smash scene ;) but she feels like to win a couple of matches at a weekly is a task that requires months of work to a newcomer. The skill barrier to enter smash is the biggest obstacle when we've talked about her playing and entering the weekly in my area. So obviously the thing to do is practice right? Just grind and play for hours and learn a lot of technical aspects of the game because she doesn't have the years of friendly matches behind her to give any kind of fundamentals or basic character knowledge that even a casual player of smash would have. This task is daunting to a new comer and of putting. Obviously this wouldn't be a barrier to a female player that has veteran experience or plays on a regular basis but I think that I have an idea that would help bridge the gap between female player participate in tournaments and novice player participation.

A better direction for tournaments, like my weekly for instance, on player improvement and novice player integration through the enlarged focus on player development and socialization. I think that tournaments should focus on development and welcoming of players, veteran and rookie and novice, into their scene so that it bolsters play that is both competitive and healthy for players. I recall that one of my biggest obstacles to 'get gud' was that I didn't know how to do it and playing alone seemed to get me no where. The thing that helped me was when a veteran coach took me under their wing, played with me a lot and forced me to learn and play with his friends. He was a complete jerk to me while a I was playing to! The classic salty guy that told me my melee ganon would never go anywhere :D but the influence helped me because it got me playing with an experienced person that forced me to develop if for no other reason than to train against his other protegees. Long story short, someone took me in and that's how I was introduced into the smash scene. I'll stop reminiscing and get to the point because I know we all got involved with smash, competitive or casual, through a different means. I believe that if my weekly had people that took the time to grab any 'wall flowers' or people that would otherwise not be playing and get friendlies going with them that it would be a beneficial process for everyone.

I'm not suggesting to add direct weight for TO's to pull rather than leaving more setups open to get wallflowers involved. If there was someone there to actually engage novice players or constant spectators so that they could play or learn smash I think that it would help with some of the stigma that goes into joining a smash scene. While women only leagues may or may not be a good idea, I mean I'd be willing to TRY it and see what happens at the very least in hopes of a good outcome, I think that the barrier we need to breech can be torn down if we create more involvement. People playing smash is an enjoyable process, at least I would hope so, and if there are some competent smashers dedicated to teaching, developing and getting people involved in smash then it would enrich an already enjoyable process. While it hasn't been implemented yet, I'm going to try and get this process going in my area so we can pull in women of varying skill level and smashers that would would otherwise not participate because of the reasons that I have mentioned as barriers for my girlfriend's participation. I know for a fact, that a women only smash tournament would make her feel awkward unless she was already grounded and had some confidence. Creating a more friendly environment or designating competent smashers to be mentors and involve people that would otherwise be wallflowers is crucial to reaching out to a demographic that we have excluded. If we crafted this system, environment or whatever you want to label it then people might have a REASON to bring their girlfriend, sister, brother or friend regardless of their skill level.

If and when this kind of environment came to exist, then any girl or spectator would be engaged and feel welcomed to the smash scene regardless of their skill level. Heck, we might even be INVITING people to smash tournaments to learn and make friends. I think this would be a significant step in tearing down the gender, skill and other demographic barriers that smash as a whole faces in tournament participation. Smash is grassroots, I think our solution is IN the fact that we are grassroots and can do better as a community to engage the demographics that see exclusion or smaller levels of participation.

TL;DR
Women only leagues might be a good idea, we should probably TRY them and see what happens. However, if we really want to reach demographics we need to create an environment with smashers that are dedicated to roping in wallflowers, engaging spectators and mentoring players so that we can enlarge our smash scenes and give people both the friendships, confidence and skills to WANT to participate and compete meaningfully in tournaments.
 
Last edited:

Wiimas123

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 4, 2015
Messages
102
It has worked for other communities, so I think it's worth a shot. See, it's not about making them feel lesser - it's about giving them a space where they can feel more comfortable attending. Why is that such a bad thing to other men?

You get things like "guilt" and the like being thrown around, and for what? What makes you guys so uncomfortable with trying to do something for women in our scene?
I'm trying to help women into Smash. All i'm saying is this isn't the way to go about it. Women only tournaments segregate men and women. Why can't they share a space? Have you ever once thought that maybe women don't come because they don't enjoy Smash competitively? You're treating women like 4 year olds, they aren't scared or intimidated by the tournaments. Maybe they just don't like Smash.
 

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
I'm trying to help women into Smash. All i'm saying is this isn't the way to go about it. Women only tournaments segregate men and women. Why can't they share a space? Have you ever once thought that maybe women don't come because they don't enjoy Smash competitively? You're treating women like 4 year olds, they aren't scared or intimidated by the tournaments. Maybe they just don't like Smash.
We have proof in this thread that some women do feel intimidated AND that the additional event works. It's not that women are children... this is what inequality in our society has done, and these are steps that have proven to help fix the issue. Why not give it a shot?
 

pikazz

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
1,868
Location
Sweden, Umeå (Currently in Seattle)
NNID
pikamaxi
my thought is that we (males) have taken our big place in pretty much everything and push out the females out of the picture. as soon as a female joins its often really bad support in styles of "You are not playing good girl" or "I cant lose to a girl".

My girlfriend and I were in a smash4 tourny last year, a pretty big one. She ended up Quarter Finals on Loser side and I ended up Semi Finals on Loser Side. (we did even won Brawl Tourny Team)
she did got really nice support due being one of the very very few women there (it was like 3 girls of 80) and she got that high up, many said that she was good and many rooted for her to win. she even got her big audience when she played! (bigger than mine xD)
but every rose has its thorn. she got some bad support aswell, like "I cant believe I lost to a girl" or "you are playing good for being a girl" and more of that harassment.

the problem I see is that WE as players and community are seeing the female sex as a obsicle/hinderence and constantly pushing it against their faces. if we want to support the females and make them join aswell, we need to see past the gender and support them as equal (cause they really are important as us men).
thats one of the thing of why women dont want to join "stuff that are seeing as men" like game tournies

splitting them up for a game that doesnt need any physical skill will only put the split the fissure even further for the gender equally. its similiar of starting to put a "female/male only tourny for Tic-Tac-Toe"
 
Last edited:

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
splitting them up for a game that doesnt need any physical skill will only put the bar higher for the gender equally. its similiar of starting to put a "female/male only tourny for Tic-Tac-Toe"
Or chess.
 

FallenHero

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2015
Messages
641
Location
Bronx, New York
I guess if there is proof that they only don't play because they feel awkward around everyone else it could help, but I would not be surprised if they wouldn't go to the regular tournaments where everyone can play. I've never been to a tournament so I wouldn't know, but are there any rules against harassment or something? It might just work out better to convince a girl to just go and ignore anyone who bothers them. Someone tells them they suck at the game cause they are a female? Place higher than them or beat them in a set to shut them up. There has to be SOME rules against harassment if there isn't already. Also, considering I am 16 years old, I would probably feel pretty awkward at my first tournament too, since I would be younger than almost everyone and i wouldn't be surprised if people would tell me something like "you're pretty good for a kid" or "how could I lose to a kid?". Everyone deals with trash-talk, not just female players and feeling awkward around the opposite sex can be easily dealt with by the individual themselves.
 
Last edited:

pikazz

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
1,868
Location
Sweden, Umeå (Currently in Seattle)
NNID
pikamaxi
I guess if there is proof that they only don't play because they feel awkward around everyone else it could help, but I would not be surprised if they wouldn't go to the regular tournaments where everyone can play. I've never been to a tournament so I wouldn't know, but are there any rules against harassment or something? It might just work out better to convince a girl to just go and ignore anyone who bothers them. Someone tells them they suck at the game cause they are a female? Place higher than them or beat them in a set to shut them up. There has to be SOME rules against harassment if there isn't already. Also, considering I am 16 years old, I would probably feel pretty awkward at my first tournament too, since I would be younger than almost everyone and i wouldn't be surprised if people would tell me something like "you're pretty good for a kid" or "how could I lose to a kid?". Everyone deals with trash-talk, not just female players and feeling awkward around the opposite sex can be easily dealt with by the individual themselves.
there was rules inform of "have good sportmanship" in the tourny we were in, but there is always those who just cant have it and it sadly affects girls if they are sexist
 

Shouxiao

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
213
I think females players would earn significantly more respect and be taken much more seriously by simply competing in the tournaments that everyone else takes a part of. Female only tournaments are seen as a side event. Even when there is a major tournament going on female only tournaments do not get anywhere close to the amount of views that the main events does.

When a female does well or wins a big co-ed tournament it gets a lot of positive attention. When a females wins a female only tournament it gets a small fraction of the attention.

In FGC(fighting game community) someone like Matsuri(Street Fighter Player) gives some of the best players in the world good matches. In the FGC she is gaining a lot of respect and is taken seriously.

For games like Counterstrike just compare the views of the major tournaments and compare the views of the female tournaments. They are considered high tier players but are not taken as seriously.

In the gaming hierarchy(I can not think of word right now) skill is valued over anything. That shall earn a player respect and status.
 
Last edited:

PStoken

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 11, 2015
Messages
17
NNID
Token31
There's nothing stopping women from entering tournaments. There is no institutionalized prejudice against them. The worst you can point to is trolls on twitch which, surprise, also tear down the male players for looks, personality, or whatever else they can think of. Maybe you think that women are too weak to ignore trolls, or too stupid to play the game on the level of men, and this is your way of compensating for your own guilt. I don't care. All I wanted to do was point out how foolish you two are, and explain how stupid your suggestion is, and I've accomplished that. Frankly, neither of you have any sort of power or influence (thankfully) in the community, and since there's no convincing a pair of fanatics, there's really nothing else for me to say in this thread. Have fun kids!
I agree, besides from anecdotal comments, it has not been proved that women are segregated or discriminated against in smash tourneys, community, etc.
I'm trying to help women into Smash. All i'm saying is this isn't the way to go about it. Women only tournaments segregate men and women. Why can't they share a space? Have you ever once thought that maybe women don't come because they don't enjoy Smash competitively? You're treating women like 4 year olds, they aren't scared or intimidated by the tournaments. Maybe they just don't like Smash.
Youre right,and this whole thing just doesnt make sense, nobody can come up with the hard data to back up any claims of harrasmentsegregaion, etc, while treating women like actual children, or mentally challenged.

If we are treating anecdotes as proof,The only girl i knew who played smash seriously was fiercely against the idea of female only tournaments, cuz she said ''most girls were only there to be loud,flashy and to garner attention,most girls suck at smash'' this same girl attends tournaments regularly and even hangs with her own crew.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom