Should Smash consider women-only tournaments? Clear numbers say its great for community growth.

[LightLV]

Do female gamers have a hard time in the generally "male dominated" gaming space? Yep.

Should more people be talking about it? Yeah, we should.

Should we do female-only tournaments to raise awareness? Depends on why we're doing it.

I'm for it just to give female players a "potential stress free" venue to enjoy playing the game. Sure, whatever, knock yourself out.

I'm against it as an official, reoccuring event for the sake of increasing diversity, because it isn't solving or addressing any issue. We already know that plenty of women play smash, we already know half of gaming is female. (YES, half of gaming is female. Your personal definition of "gamer" is irrelevant.) The issue isn't getting them to play, the issue is letting them feel like they belong in the same space simultaneously. The idea that we can only help the issue by creating a nice little bubble where we remove ourselves from the equation isn't helping anything long-term, and just goes to show how crappy the issue is.

Well, it's entirely possible that poorly executed experiments can make public perception problems worse.

I can say with 100% certainty that whenever there is a women's-only event for any sport, part of the audience (or those who hear about it) take it as implicit evidence that women are on average not as skilled or competitive as men.

Regardless of how you or I feel, most of the public regards the WNBA as a joke. Males hold every Olympic record except the discus throw. And while this may not carry over directly into eSports, reaction time certain does and averages better for males across age demographics.

I have no interest in boorish arguments about how women are supposedly less capable or less competitive than men according to genetics or evolution or astrology or whatever. I'm just laying out plainly that if you do present women's events as separate, it furthers a common narrative that says women have to have their own walled garden to compete in.

It implies that women = JV, which is the root of most sexism in society.

I agree about the potential grouping problem. But it is a bad idea to compare esports to physical sports, since segregating genders for the sake of complete fairness most of the time makes sense...though one could easily argue that sports dont do a very good job of being fairly inclusive to begin with, disregarding gender entirely, and adding gender to the mix just makes it worse. Yeah, the female body is just naturally more vulnerable than the male one, and none of the rules ever take that into consideration, but rules regarding body type in general have always just been male-directed to begin with.
Elaboration:

Spoiler

The WNBA is a public joke, but the NBA itself doesn't even make any real attempts to be inclusive among men. The average height across the NBA is 6'7", average weight well over 200lbs. There are no "balancing" rules when it comes to the physical ability of the players, so naturally the "meta" is aimed towards the perfect mix of taller, faster, and heavier. Even if women were allowed to compete in the same league, the rules of the sport would "naturally select" against the vast, vast majority of them, off genetic predispositions alone.

In boxing, fighters are grouped by weight class. This rule evolved much more intuitively, since putting a Manny Pacquiao in the ring with a Mike Tyson is a f***ing terrible idea. In boxing there is a "Below the Belt" rule thats clearly there to discourage you from attacking a very vulnerable male weakpoint. This is a good rule. But if women were allowed to compete with men, considering the limitation on weight, would there also be a rule barring chest strikes? Woman vs. Woman i don't think this is even an issue, but in Man vs. Woman this becomes a mutually exclusive weakpoint. I think in MMA, for some asinine reason, female fighters are even forbidden from wearing groin protection, as if there's nothing to damage down there.

TL;DR large physical sports have never actually tried to include females, because none of them have actually sacrificed any parts of their rulesets that would allow not only women but people in general to have a completely fair shot to begin with. With women it's a bit more egregious and so the easiest step down is just to create a seperate, "JV" league for them to compete in.

Esports though is completely different. Any data regarding reaction times discrepancy is a complete wash, such a thing depends entirely on what you have trained your body and mind to do. We're talking about nerves here, there is no gender difference. The issue women have with esports and gaming is that the community is just inherently hostile towards them, sometimes intentionally, most of the time subconsciously.


You've got the clear major offenders ("you lost to a girl", *joke with kitchen punchline*), you've got the minor, subconscious offenders ("You're good for a girl", *insert obnoxious flirt attempt here*), and you've got the people who just exacerbate all the other issues by either laughing from the sidelines, watching it happen without calling it out, or simply assert that it isn't a problem at all (THE worst of all. If this is you, shut up, you make everything worse).


The girls can tough it out and deal with it, but it's going to have to be a change on the men's end to actually make any real progress. You can have "female only" tournaments and get a good turnout, and yeah it probably will ultimately help the tournament scene at large. But what people should be aiming for is the ability to not have females be turned away from general events at all.

 

[deepseadiva]

I agree, besides from anecdotal comments, it has not been proved that women are segregated or discriminated against in smash tourneys, community, etc.

Youre right,and this whole thing just doesnt make sense, nobody can come up with the hard data to back up any claims of harrasmentsegregaion, etc, while treating women like actual children, or mentally challenged.

Like in STEM and other fields, the proof of women being excluded is in their lack of attendance. My guess of a 9% attendance rate was a generous guess. I don't believe 1 in every 10 tournament entrants is a woman. But of course we don't know the hard data because I don't believe anyone has tried collecting that data in Smash.

Just because there's no obvious "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" sign doesn't mean unseen pressures and obstacles aren't there. This is a well documented phenomenon called a glass ceiling.

 

[FallenHero]

Like in STEM and other fields, the proof of women being excluded is in their lack of attendance. My guess of a 9% attendance rate was a generous guess. I don't believe 1 in every 10 tournament entrants is a woman. But of course we don't know the hard data because I don't believe anyone has tried collecting that data in Smash.

Just because there's no obvious "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" sign doesn't mean unseen pressures and obstacles aren't there. This is a well documented phenomenon called a glass ceiling.

This "glass ceiling" you keep mentioning is there for players of any race, gender, age, etc., but it is not always the same for every single person. Players just need to get strong enough to break through the glass. I agree that the players themselves need to change (I'm talking about both genders), but I am not sure there is anything that can really be done to stop certain male players from harassing or insulting a player for being female and I don't think there is much that can be done to stop certain female players from giving up after dealing with a few of those annoying and/or sexist male players.

I'm for it just to give female players a "potential stress free" venue to enjoy playing the game. Sure, whatever, knock yourself out.

I think it would be much better to give EVERYONE a "potential stress free" venue by punishing players in tournaments for harassment, but I would also hope that if they did that, they don't take to far and make so that players can't just trash-talk purely based on another player's skills or as a challenge. It should be that if a player is insulting someone or trash-talking another for something like their gender, race, age, etc. it should be punished by TOs.

 

[LightLV]

This "glass ceiling" you keep mentioning is there for players of any race, gender, age, etc., but it is not always the same for every single person. Players just need to get strong enough to break through the glass. I agree that the players themselves need to change (I'm talking about both genders), but I am not sure there is anything that can really be done to stop certain male players from harassing or insulting a player for being female and I don't think there is much that can be done to stop certain female players from giving up after dealing with a few of those annoying and/or sexist male players.

"Glass ceiling" is a term for minorities and women, and the problems you just identified as difficult to control are contributing factors to it...though I'm not sure if "glass ceiling" should be used in this context, since beating another player is a state in a computer and doesn't require outside input from a biased human.

And the way to stop that stuff from happening is to make it socially disagreeable. When someone tells a bad joke in a crowd and nobody laughs, they feel uncomfortable. When someone tells a bad joke in a crowd and gets clowned for it, they learn better jokes. And when someone says a bad joke in a crowd and people laugh, he tells it again the next time he gets the chance.

I think it would be much better to give EVERYONE a "potential stress free" venue by punishing players in tournaments for harassment, but I would also hope that if they did that, they don't take to far and make so that players can't just trash-talk purely based on another player's skills or as a challenge. It should be that if a player is insulting someone or trash-talking another for something like their gender, race, age, etc. it should be punished by TOs.

That is the general idea. IMO a venue without trash talk is a playground for kids, but there should be some community moderation.

I agree, besides from anecdotal comments, it has not been proved that women are segregated or discriminated against in smash tourneys, community, etc.

Youre right,and this whole thing just doesnt make sense, nobody can come up with the hard data to back up any claims of harrasmentsegregaion, etc, while treating women like actual children, or mentally challenged.

If we are treating anecdotes as proof,The only girl i knew who played smash seriously was fiercely against the idea of female only tournaments, cuz she said ''most girls were only there to be loud,flashy and to garner attention,most girls suck at smash'' this same girl attends tournaments regularly and even hangs with her own crew.

You don't need any proof, it's all over the place. You already know what we're talking about; the issue is that you are looking for the wrong cues, and if you're someone who's never been discriminated against, unfortunately this is easy to miss. It works a bit more like water damage in a house. It's a bunch of really small events that would seem quite harmless at face value, but they add up to get really aggravating later. It's a human issue, anecdotal evidence is really all we have to go off. On that note, the one example you posted is just as worthless as anyone elses, because it's ignoring bias that's easy to see in the quote itself.

But honestly....regarding this issue? You do not have to look very hard, or ask many female gamers before you start to notice a trend.

Hell you really don't even have to ask any women. Just go look at any social gaming outlet where a woman is the focal point of attention, in a place where it's usually a dude. Chances are unless you're looking at someone who already has a massive following, the chat and comments will follow down a noticeably different path.


FFS you don't even have to do that. Just type "FEMALE STREAMERS" into google search. There's drama before you even click a ****ing link. Then type "MALE STREAMERS" and, ironically, the google search results get even worse.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Maybe I should tell a story...

So I went to my gaming club and played Smash Wii U. I'm probably the guy who can play that game the longest without getting sick of it.

As playing went on, I noticed a girl who was eating sushi at a table nearby was watching.

Everyone else had just left so I invited her over.

"No thanks. I'm not very good. I don't really know what to do."

"Want me to teach ya?"

"... Okay. Sure."

She came over and we talked about how the game works. I recommend that she try to start with (one of the characters she liked) and I went . We had some matches and did some co-op single player (we lost the first time, because I tried to style on CPUs).

She liked what she played and now likes to jump into 8 player smash with .



I don't think its about a safe space for women exactly. I think it's just showing a willing to bring less skilled players up. I'm not sure her gender had much to do with it. I mean yeah, much later I ended up taking her on a date (and I don't think either of us wanted a second one, still buds though) but that initial experience kind of showed me that once they're there. Don't treat them any different. Just be nice.

It's getting them there that's tricky. Now, we smashers aren't sexist and neither is our current way of doing things. We provide opportunities and if a woman wants to try, we'll let them try. It's less us and more how we're perceived than anything. Perhaps we need to be less critical of new players? Embrace the wacky casualness of the game sometimes? I dunno.

 

[LightLV]

I don't think its about a safe space for women exactly. I think it's just showing a willing to bring less skilled players up. I'm not sure her gender had much to do with it. I mean yeah, much later I ended up taking her on a date (and I don't think either of us wanted a second one, still buds though) but that initial experience kind of showed me that once they're there. Don't treat them any different. Just be nice.

It's getting them there that's tricky. Now, we smashers aren't sexist and neither is our current way of doing things. We provide opportunities and if a woman wants to try, we'll let them try. It's less us and more how we're perceived than anything. Perhaps we need to be less critical of new players? Embrace the wacky casualness of the game sometimes? I dunno.

This is pretty much my sentiments exactly.

This actually isn't specifically a "female gamer" problem. It's a problem in gaming, and one that I severely dislike. Being female simply adds another layer to it. The whole recent explosion of "HARDCORE" vs "CASUAL" labels doesn't help anything either. No "hardcore" gamer ever started off that way. You sucked at games when you were 6, just the same as a newcomer sucks at a game starting off at 26. It doesn't help that current gamers have evolved with a medium that has exploded in complexity. The gaming industry's complacency to just label things as "for hardcore" and "for casual" has created a rift in that essential grey area where people are allowed to actually make the transition. It's not that female gamers are getting targeted by that kind of harassment. Everyone gets it...females just get the worst of it.


And anytime any gamer gets turned away from the culture because they feel like they don't belong, it's hurting everybody. I really wish more developers would understand this. It's pretty much the only thing i still really respect about Nintendo, even if I disagree with their methods. (Smash 4 is pretty much the embodiment of this.)

 

[FallenHero]

And the way to stop that stuff from happening is to make it socially disagreeable. When someone tells a bad joke in a crowd and nobody laughs, they feel uncomfortable. When someone tells a bad joke in a crowd and gets clowned for it, they learn better jokes. And when someone says a bad joke in a crowd and people laugh, he tells it again the next time he gets the chance.

Well at this point a lot of these jokes are socially disagreeable, but there are going to be some that are still going to joke about it anyways. If someone finds a joke funny and you don't, it doesn't mean it was a bad joke, it just means you didn't find it funny. A bad joke would be something like telling a someone a joke about they're parents if they have a dead parent.

That is the general idea. IMO a venue without trash talk is a playground for kids, but there should be some community moderation.

Yeah I would hate to see trash talk no longer be allowed. We wouldn't be having anything like salty suites or grudge matches then, and those are fun and interesting to watch.

 

[Wolfheart77]

Read all of this and at first was wondering, would I want to go to a female only tournament?
And my answer would have to be... No.
But it's not because I think female gamers are bad. Why would I? I AM one. And my best friend happens to be a casual gamer. And we do joke about things that only girls would get sometimes and we commiserate over things that girls share - whether it be not having a boy look at you the way you want or whatnot.
Anyway, issue at hand. No, I would not want to go to a female only tournament. Granted, the only tournament I've been in was a campus tournament where members of my campus that enjoyed Smash gathered together. We maybe had twenty players tops and I was the only girl. And I could count the sexist comments on one hand.... Actually, no wait, I couldn't. No one cared enough to make those comments. And sure, I would love to find a set of weeklies or something to go to around here. But I wouldn't want to go to a female only tournament because, frankly, girls are generally fussy, drama-filled individuals who enjoy attention. I've a couple other female friends and one of them is resistant to go to our Smash group because she prefers casual gaming. The other? Wouldn't mind going to see whether or not she liked it. I have met very, very few girls with the "hardcore" mindset (my best friend is casual when it comes to Smash but get her on any other game and she's in her element, loving every minute of it).
Maybe this is just a personal thing, but no, I wouldn't feel isolated because of my gender. No, I wouldn't feel off-put because some guy cat-called or made some sort of raunchy comment. I've fought for over nine years against things like "Oh, so you're a female gamer? What games do you play? Something girly?" and I've no problem proudly proclaiming that I am thoroughly enjoying how competitive I can get with my friends in my Smash group. (Incidentally, all male. Might have taken a little bit of getting used to, mainly because there is a sort of block given to female gamers so we feel like we have to prove ourselves more than the males do but once you're treated like family it suddenly doesn't matter what physical traits you sport.)
On the tournament I was in, someone asked me after a match how long I had been playing. At the time, the answer was "a month and a half" and I didn't get the "Well, you played well for a girl" response from him; his response was "You play well for only having played for a month and a half. At our next tournament I want a rematch, with no holds barred." He had three-stocked me while taking only 9% damage himself and I found out later he was the previous tournament runner-up. Next tournament still is a month away but we played a few friendlies about a week later and I could easily hold my own on the matches and even won a few. And from his reactions when I won I don't think he was holding back.
"But how did you get into Smash in the first place?"
I thought Brawl looked like a cool game. So I got it. And at the time I sucked so much I couldn't even beat a level 5 computer no matter how hard I tried. Only got into the competitive aspect of it a few months ago when, after some people in my gaming group broke off for 8-player Smash and I played with them, I tagged along the week after and they quickly offered to train me.
Maybe I am one of the lucky ones. And I can guarantee you I'm nowhere near good enough for tournament-level play. But that will never deter me. (Just can't... find... locals... and I've searched :'( ) But guys aren't the only ones who can memorize how to do a turnaround-b asc jcupsmash or figure out how to successfully edgeguard, ledge trump, rack up damage or get decent kills. And if I ever get the chance to prove that at Nationals, all the better.
As long as it's not a female-only tournament at Nationals.

 

[telex]

This is a difficult subject. Haven't had a chance to read over what others have written so I apologize if I'm just reiterating other people's points :v

To start off, I guess I should just get to the point; all-female tournaments are okay, to an extent. Honestly, it's definitely something that I would enjoy attending, just for the novelty of it, and because I find that due to my hobbies and such I don't have quite as many good female friends as I'd like to. But this is kind of irrelevant because I'm someone who has already started going to tournaments and weeklies.
But what I can tell you is that the thing that made me pluck up the courage to attend a smash event in the first place was when I found out that another girl would be there.

For some girls, they need the comfort of knowing they're not the only girl in the room. Honestly, I don't need this now, and I'm pretty well acquainted with being the only female-identifying person in the room. It's fine by me. But to break into the scene it can be really hard for anyone who has any kind of nervousness surrounding socializing. It's only going to be harder if you know that you will probably stick out like a sore thumb.

So female-only tournaments are a good once-off idea. As an ice-breaker, a way to get a feel for tournaments without the added anxieties.
There should not be, however, under any circumstances be a division between male and female players more than once in a blue moon. We are all perfectly capable of competing with men. The idea of a 'women's league' or something like that is just ridiculous and I would hate it.

I think it's kind of crappy that we even have to think about all-female tournaments, but I guess it's in part due to girls being socialized not to really have much of an interest in games. However, there are things that we can do to make tournaments more welcoming to everyone, not just women.
I wish we could please stop with the hitting on female players. And this pertains to people who do it on this site and other smash related ones, and people who do it in person. It's really off putting. You can be attracted to someone, sure, and that's totally fine. But if you immediately start hitting on me without even making any real effort to get to know me, I know it's because you're seeing me as a woman before anything else. Smashboards//Tournaments are not bars. Save that **** for the nightclub bro.

As well as that, homophobic/transphobic behavior and other things like that are also really detrimental.

This might've been posted here, but if you're interested the well known Melee player Milktea wrote a great blog post about this, I'd really recommend it!
http://www.lilchen.com/blog/stop-asking-about-all-female-tournaments/

B)

 

[Still~Wolf]

eh, i mean its not a bad subject.

but if like, i dont think "female only tournaments" are gonna help with the lack of females in nationals. i mean, nothing is stopping them from entering. most of the dudes in the scene seem chill enough not to make passes too.

i mean, if women are uncomfortable entering tournaments because of men or something, sure i guess. but they wont be able to get over their issues with it if they dont enter.

as a female ive never had this issue, so not sure if others do..?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm curious.

How many of the people who said it was a good idea are actually women?

 

[telex]

I'm curious.

How many of the people who said it was a good idea are actually women?

well I think it's partially a good idea, and I'm a woman

 

[ChikiLucario]

I'm sorry but what.

Ok let's split the tournaments into two sections. Male only and female only. I've never heard of such a lulzy idea.

It's meant to be a social game, so segregating both genders? Yeah... Okay.

Did something happen? I only read the first post to get the gist of the whole thing, but did some sexist thing happen in the smash community? I mean, wasn't the last thing that happened that thing between M2K and his girlfriend or something? I dunno. Bit outta the loop.

Segregating men and women isn't a good idea. Maybe a "ladies' night" thing where women don't have to pay an entry fee so their friends can drag them along would work. I don't know. But I do know that Smash is more male-dominated than it should be, especially considering 48% of gamers (loosely defined) are female.

Sausagefests make me uncomfortable.

"Give us free entry because we lack penises"

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Doesn't seem to lean in the direction of "equality" for me.

 

[aεrgiα]

I'm sorry but what.

Ok let's split the tournaments into two sections. Male only and female only. I've never heard of such a lulzy idea.

It's meant to be a social game, so segregating both genders? Yeah... Okay.

Did something happen? I only read the first post to get the gist of the whole thing, but did some sexist thing happen in the smash community? I mean, wasn't the last thing that happened that thing between M2K and his girlfriend or something? I dunno. Bit outta the loop.



"Give us free entry because we lack penises"

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Doesn't seem to lean in the direction of "equality" for me.

no, the idea isnt to have a male only and a female only tournament, the idea is to leave things as they are now(open to all) but also introduce tournaments for women only, kind of similar to arcadians, you can enter the arcadian as a new player, but that doesnt(and shouldnt) stop you from entering the main, open for all, tournament. in fact, the purpose is similar to an arcadian too, in the sense that it aims to ease new players into the scene

 

[ChikiLucario]

no, the idea isnt to have a male only and a female only tournament, the idea is to leave things as they are now(open to all) but also introduce tournaments for women only, kind of similar to arcadians, you can enter the arcadian as a new player, but that doesnt(and shouldnt) stop you from entering the main, open for all, tournament. in fact, the purpose is similar to an arcadian too, in the sense that it aims to ease new players into the scene

Ooh, I see. The prize pool for the second tournament would come from the entry fee that the women pay, or people donate? I mean, if there was a tournament that would help some individuals break outta their shell, I'd definitely give some towards that. :3

Edit: Picklejho Mawile is hilarious

 

[Ravine]

I like it. It's a great way for women to talk about smash and their feelings. I'd definitely attend, as long there is also a LGBT smash tournament at the same time and one for minorities or a combo of all.

 

[aεrgiα]

Ooh, I see. The prize pool for the second tournament would come from the entry fee that the women pay, or people donate? I mean, if there was a tournament that would help some individuals break outta their shell, I'd definitely give some towards that. :3

Edit: Picklejho Mawile is hilarious

i think thats actually a very good question which hasnt been discussed here as far as im aware, in the end it comes down to the TOs decision, but i think the most sustainable option would be through the entry fee, since while donations may work, what happens when theres no donations?(although i do think the donations could be an option to increase the prize pool, or, if you want to make it an entry free/lower entrance fee tournament (since its not meant to be on the same level of competition as the open for all tournament), to even have a prize pool)

as for pickle mawile, ikr i love it lol

 

[Zenithia]

I'm a woman, and I have to say that I just don't like the idea of segregation. It's absolutely essential for males and females to get used to each other to overcome prejudice and think of each other as just fellow players.

 

[Ravine]

I see differences in male and females all the time. In sports, in art, in speech, in literature...
I wonder what the differences really are in smash, if there is any.

If gaming is more mainstream and seen as positive, then maybe more people will join. It seems like right now gaming has a negative association due to gamer... rhymes with ate... and all.

 

[Quarium]

For some reason I always find it kinda strange that when a girl wants to play all the dudes instantly whisper to each other ''I bet she mains Kirby'' Is that like a smash girl stereotype or...?

As for the idea itself, I think of it as partially good as well... when thinking about it as a way to ease new female players in, it sounds nice. Then they choose if they wanna enter in the ''free for everyone'' tourneys... I HONESTLY haven't seen much segregation on my own scene experience, girls are still kinda scarce but they usually come around and are treated as anybody else both in the player and person sense... so I have no idea why more of them don't come around. Maybe fear? prejudice? I honestly have no idea but maybe they just don't wanna be surrounded by sweaty nerds in a 8+ hours tournament, I really want to know.

 

[telex]

For some reason I always find it kinda strange that when a girl wants to play all the dudes instantly whisper to each other ''I bet she mains Kirby'' Is that like a smash girl stereotype or...?

As for the idea itself, I think of it as partially good as well... when thinking about it as a way to ease new female players in, it sounds nice. Then they choose if they wanna enter in the ''free for everyone'' tourneys... I HONESTLY haven't seen much segregation on my own scene experience, girls are still kinda scarce but they usually come around and are treated as anybody else both in the player and person sense... so I have no idea why more of them don't come around. Maybe fear? prejudice? I honestly have no idea but maybe they just don't wanna be surrounded by sweaty nerds in a 8+ hours tournament, I really want to know.

I think the girls maining Kirby thing is a bit of a running joke, yeah. No idea where it came from. That's a good question about why more girls don't get involved in competitive smash. I mean, there's a ton of female Nintendo fans, and especially ones who are fans of franchises that are really well represented in Smash (FE, Zelda, AC...actually really every Nintendo game is pretty popular with women). I guess it's just not really out there in a big way? Unless you're following specific people, you're not really going to see coverage of competitive play on Tumblr or Twitter. I did find out about competitive smash from my brothers. I always knew of smash tourneys, but they actually gave me names to look up. Honestly I don't know how they found out either :v

It would be super awesome imo if Nintendo could back a female-only bracket at a national. They've done the similar things recently. An example that sticks out in my mind was the girls-only Fire Emblem Cipher TCG tournament they ran in Japan. It would really help get the word about smash out there. It would also piss a lot of people off too, I'm sure. But you can't please everyone :v

 

[Wolfheart77]

I never really figured out what it was about Kirby. I hate Kirby (no offense to anyone who mains him) because his brand of floatiness is choppy and he just didn't seem to fit in my playstyle. (And the stereotype, but I did actually give him a shot.) But if someone ever whispers, "She's just a girl; she can't play well" or "I bet she mains Kirby" I'll take out Robin (male, thank you) or Lucario and show them how well I can play. Which, comparatively, isn't well, but at least I'm trying.

 

[LightLV]

I'm sorry but what.

Ok let's split the tournaments into two sections. Male only and female only. I've never heard of such a lulzy idea.

It's meant to be a social game, so segregating both genders? Yeah... Okay.

Did something happen? I only read the first post to get the gist of the whole thing, but did some sexist thing happen in the smash community? I mean, wasn't the last thing that happened that thing between M2K and his girlfriend or something? I dunno. Bit outta the loop.

"Give us free entry because we lack penises"

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Doesn't seem to lean in the direction of "equality" for me.

Hey, works for nightclubs. /irrelevant

No, what they're discussing here isn't about equality, at least not at this level. It's just about exposure. Women are more likely to attend if they don't feel like they're out of place.

Kind of like how a guy may feel walking into a hair salon. Or a nail shop? Pedicure? I don't know.

I like it. It's a great way for women to talk about smash and their feelings. I'd definitely attend, as long there is also a LGBT smash tournament at the same time and one for minorities or a combo of all.

I don't feel like LGBT really matters in this context. Being gay/trans and playing videogames clearly isn't an issue, Kayo Police and Karaface are extraordinarily popular and everyone knows they're transgender. There are tons of openly gay streamers / players and nobody ever seems to care. At least, i've never seen a LGBT person get railed for being who they are nearly as hard as a female gamer will get destroyed for showing even a little cleavage on stream.

Minorities are also certainly a non-issue in gaming, this has never been a problem, you'll see top players of all races frequently. No, the social issues gamers experience tends to mostly be gender related.


I've never heard the kirby joke, seems like a local thing. Most girls I know though seem to flock to the Zelda and Mario series characters, including Ganon and Bowser. But then again, most newcomers do that as well. Zelda and Mario are just the most iconic.

 

[deepseadiva]

It would be super awesome imo if Nintendo could back a female-only bracket at a national. They've done the similar things recently. An example that sticks out in my mind was the girls-only Fire Emblem Cipher TCG tournament they ran in Japan.

Oh I wasn't aware there has been a Nintendo-sponsored precedent! Excellent, I'll look into that as well.

 

[telex]

Oh I wasn't aware there has been a Nintendo-sponsored precedent! Excellent, I'll look into that as well.

https://www.youtube.com/user/NintendoGirlsClub
yep! that's their english youtube page.
it seems that their main emphasis at the moment is on style boutique...make of that what you will.

http://fireemblemcipher.blogspot.ie/2015/07/news-nintendo-to-host-womens-club-for.html
here's the article about the tournament!

 

[Darknid]

Here's the thing, these girl gamers are seldom capable of participating in tournaments without being harangued by some form of harassment. Most are assaulted by the male gaze, and can barely hang on to their controllers when their opponent's knee is manspreading into their safe space. These women are goddesses, so when you point out that literally all of them are using Kirby you are denying them their goddess truth. Not to mention Bowser's d-throw can be very triggering. I think subjugating them to female-only environments is the only way to protect them from you mad apes.

 

[|RK|]

Here's the thing, these girl gamers are seldom capable of participating in tournaments without being harangued by some form of harassment. Most are assaulted by the male gaze, and can barely hang on to their controllers when their opponent's knee is manspreading into their safe space. These women are goddesses, so when you point out that literally all of them are using Kirby you are denying them their goddess truth. Not to mention Bowser's d-throw can be very triggering. I think subjugating them to female-only environments is the only way to protect them from you mad apes.

Congratulations. You just played yourself.

 

[FallenHero]

Congratulations. You just played yourself.

I get that it is DJ Khaled joke, but I don't get what that has to do with his post.

 

[Zenithia]

Here's the thing, these girl gamers are seldom capable of participating in tournaments without being harangued by some form of harassment. Most are assaulted by the male gaze, and can barely hang on to their controllers when their opponent's knee is manspreading into their safe space. These women are goddesses, so when you point out that literally all of them are using Kirby you are denying them their goddess truth. Not to mention Bowser's d-throw can be very triggering. I think subjugating them to female-only environments is the only way to protect them from you mad apes.

Sarcasm detected

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 Triggered.

 

[|RK|]

I get that it is DJ Khaled joke, but I don't get what that has to do with his post.

His entire argument is anti-feminist, gamergate-esque drivel. Same type of **** that keeps women from gaming in the first place.

He's using exclusionary arguments to claim women aren't excluded.

 

[FallenHero]

His entire argument is anti-feminist, gamergate-esque drivel.

And that makes his argument mean nothing? He has a good point, why should people be getting any special treatment for their gender?

Same type of **** that keeps women from gaming in the first place.

I don't understand how him saying women should not be treated special is anti-feminist, that is just being fair. How does not treating a woman like they are special keep women from gaming? Maybe the main thing keeping women from gaming is that most are not interested in gaming?

He's using exclusionary arguments to claim women aren't excluded.

He is not using exclusionary arguments as real arguments, he used them sarcastically and I know that you know that even if you say that as if he was serious.

I don't think women only tournaments will help, what will help is convincing a women to go to a regular tournament so they can get used to the environment and depending on the participants, maybe also realize that there really are not that many people there who will be a creep or sexist. Sometimes stereotypes are mostly true (not sure about the Kirby thing though, but in Smash 4 most female players from what I've seen seem to play female characters) and sometimes they are not. Some stereotypes are not even that offensive, if at all to most people.

 

[telex]

Just curious, how many guys here would feel a bit uncomfortable walking into a tournament to find that they're the only man there? I mean I know where you guys are coming from with the 'why should women get special treatment' idea, because that was kind of my first reaction too. But surely you can see where we're coming from too without resorting to sarcasm and gamergate-esque rhetoric to prove your point...

Also yes I use all female characters lol. I almost always do in fighting games. And when Smash 4 has such an amazing female roster <3 then why wouldn't I? :v

 

[Darknid]

His entire argument is anti-feminist, gamergate-esque drivel. Same type of **** that keeps women from gaming in the first place.

He's using exclusionary arguments to claim women aren't excluded.

You're right. To avoid being exclusionary, we should have female-only tournaments. Let's segregate the genders, you know, because that's what feminism is about, right?

 

[Wolfheart77]

I play mostly male characters, but then I guess I'm a "minority among minorities"

At any rate, very few girls I've met actually play games; most prefer to watch. Those that have aren't all that competitive with the exception of my best friend, and she's borderline. Most girls that I know are more concerned with studies and their friends, and I just hang out with my friends a bit differently: Sm4sh.

 

[deepseadiva]

Just curious, how many guys here would feel a bit uncomfortable walking into a tournament to find that they're the only man there?

A good example of this is nail salons. The historical reaction to men entering into a women dominated space is usually abject terror.

 

[Ravine]

Cleavage is really great & strategic for distracting others who peek at your controller, so I don't really care.

I've always gotten the impression that these tournaments hosts greasy nerds. I walked into a geek hallway in school once and omg the smell was funky...

Some beauty tips for everyone attending a tournament:

You can cover your dark circles to hide the fact that you've been practicing all night and so you'll look fresh and rejuvenated. Washing face is very important as it helps clean your skin and maybe helps stop with pimples.
Lip treatment also makes so your lips aren't so chapped.

I also hear Britney Spears has really great perfumes to mask odor. I recommend showering also.

 

[smashbro29]

Opposed to this on the grounds that women don't need to be lured or given special treatment.

Do they want to play? They can come to the event just like the guys do.

What's next? Minority only Smash tournaments?

 

[deepseadiva]

You can cover your dark circles to hide the fact that you've been practicing all night and so you'll look fresh and rejuvenated.

Hope y'all are taking notes!! These are some top tier tips.

 

[ZafKiel]

I don't see the need for an all women tournament. If we want women in the community, we should try something like this. If they want to join, let them. If not, then it's going to be alright.

Now, I still think we should hold #waifuwars tournaments

 

[aεrgiα]

And that makes his argument mean nothing? He has a good point, why should people be getting any special treatment for their gender?



I don't understand how him saying women should not be treated special is anti-feminist, that is just being fair. How does not treating a woman like they are special keep women from gaming? Maybe the main thing keeping women from gaming is that most are not interested in gaming?



He is not using exclusionary arguments as real arguments, he used them sarcastically and I know that you know that even if you say that as if he was serious.

I don't think women only tournaments will help, what will help is convincing a women to go to a regular tournament so they can get used to the environment and depending on the participants, maybe also realize that there really are not that many people there who will be a creep or sexist. Sometimes stereotypes are mostly true (not sure about the Kirby thing though, but in Smash 4 most female players from what I've seen seem to play female characters) and sometimes they are not. Some stereotypes are not even that offensive, if at all to most people.

the thing is... do they get treated the same way as men? you say they shouldnt get special treatement because of their gender but they already do, although its often in a not so nice way :/ also the point of "walking into a venue full of girls" whereever that may be(hair saloon, concert, game tournament etc) is something im sure quite a few guys wouldnt feel that comfortable about doing, personally i dont care(anymore) due to my experiences in life, but i certainly would have before then... whether this is the solution is one thing, but saying there is no issue is something i cant agree on

other esports would like to disagree with the fact that most females have no interest in gaming im not saying its a 50:50 ratio, as its more common for males to be interested but im pretty sure the ratio isnt 1:50 or 100:0 that we have in some venues :/