Should Smash consider women-only tournaments? Clear numbers say its great for community growth.

[deepseadiva]

"Of course, there's still room for improvement in the fighting game community. Even while doing impressive things in the realm of racial diversity, the FGC shares a burden with the rest of eSports when it comes to another diversity-related issue, one that plagues all of gaming.

If you attend any sizable fighting game tournament, you'll notice two things about the crowd almost immediately. The first is the presence of virtually every race under the sun. The second is the almost complete lack of women. The unfortunate result of this gender imbalance is a negative feedback loop; because there's not very many women in the FGC already, it's not easy for women to enter the FGC. In many ways, it's the same problem Cannon faced in the StarCraft community.

To make matters worse, the FGC has also had a bit of a rocky history with gender politics. Perhaps most prominent among the FGC's run-ins with gender issues is an incident that took place in early 2012. Capcom was in the middle of running a Twitch-streamed fighting game reality show called Cross Assault as part of its promotion for the upcoming release of Street Fighter X Tekken. During the show's fifth day of competition, Twitch community manager Jared Rea broached the subject of the often coarse language used during fighting game competition, and questioned whether such unwelcoming vernacular was something that should be part of the FGC. One competitor on the show, Aris Bakhtanians, replied that trash-talking (and particularly sexual harassment) was an integral part of the FGC.

"The sexual harassment is part of the culture," Bakhtanians claimed. "If you remove that from the fighting game community, it's not the fighting game community ... it doesn't make sense to have that attitude. These things have been established for years."

Bakhtanians' statements, combined with the general language used throughout the matches showcased during the Cross Assault competition, highlighted a problem with the FGC's general attitude toward women. As one would expect, the backlash against this series of events was sizable, and the whole affair led to Capcom apologizing for its role in the proceedings.

One of only two women who competed on Cross Assault, Miranda "Super Yan" Pakozdi, forfeited her next match in order to leave the show immediately after Bakhtanians' comments were streamed. The incident remains a black mark on the reputation of the FGC, and to some it is still indicative of the community's general attitude toward women.

As UltraDavid mentioned in his editorial, "The fighting game scene is the oldest competitive video gaming community, old enough to have its roots in an American culture that clung strongly to the view that video games were the exclusive domain of young men. Arcades weren't for girls, and they looked like it."

Inevitably, this has hampered the ability of women to enter and feel at home within the FGC. As it stands, there are only a handful of women who can be counted as serious competitive players; a generous estimate puts this number at around half a dozen.

One of the most well-known female fighting game competitors is French Soulcalibur and Street Fighter player Marie-Laure "Kayane" Norindr. She's been playing in fighting game tournaments for over a decade, and is a regular sight on the European tournament circuit. In the aftermath of 2012's Cross Assault debacle, she was interviewed by GameSpot about her experiences as a woman in the FGC.

"When I became a young woman around the time I was 16, people stopped criticizing me about my age and began criticizing my gender," says Kayane, who began playing competitively at a very young age. "Because I was in the media a lot during that time, many people said it was because I was a woman rather than the fact that I was good at these games."

It's easy to see how women can end up attracting this kind of negative attention in a community with such a small group of female players, and the most viable solution seems to be to increase the presence of women at the FGC's largest and most prominent events. Fortunately, as gaming continues to become an increasingly mainstream — and gender-agnostic — activity, it's possible that the FGC (and other eSports communities) will see an increase in their representation of women as well."

The whole article is a great read:
WHY THE FIGHTING GAME COMMUNITY IS COLOR BLIND
Emblem Lord @Darknid it would be smart to get a better understanding of these concepts before posting.

 

[Emblem Lord]

L LightLV You posted a whole lot of nothing.

This is a COMPETITIVE community. If you aren't tough then why the **** are you competing? The very nature of competition is tough. There are going to be obstacles.

I never said there is racial division. I was drawing a comparison between two different groups that may get hate for different reasons.

Your post about the different types of gamers actually proves my entire point. Different kinds of gamers will have different levels of reactions because the type of gaming they do has trained their reactions to that point.

My point about biological differences was previously brought up so I dont know what you said it was out of context. And once again you actually supported my argument. I was essentially saying that those differences dont matter and you said the same.

It seems you really wanted to break down my post but added nothing to the discussion other then to say, "lol EL you are wrong."

Ok. Tell me why I'm wrong though.

And this time try not to let your bias against me show so much. It will make you look better.

Also in regards to the Street Fighter x Tekken debacle, Aris is a ****ing moron. Period. The FGC should be about the purity of competition and the love of fighting games. NOTHING ELSE


And you all seem to misunderstand me...I dont want to cater to anyone. Men or women. I wish for FGC to be for those with the drive and passion for the games and for those that wish to take their game to the limit.

Just that and that alone. The purity of competition. If you do not have this then be gone. If you DO have this then I call you my sibling.

But in reality the ones that can change this are women themselves. I personally do not use insulting language against women and I do not shun women when they approach me for advice or ask to fight me.

If more men simply focused on the spirit of competition then this would be a non-issue. I do agree many men are idiots within the community and do not think before they speak. Hopefully that will change with time and it has but there is definitely more work to be done.

 

[wizrad]

Emblem Lord is right everyone, let's just face it. This is a competitive community. If you're not tough, you're not gonna win.

That being said, I propose we start thinking of ways to take advantage of this "toughness" mechanic we've discovered. I think the new meta will be based around who can make the best death threats, who's the most physically intimidating, and who can sneak the deadliest weapon into the venue. Shoving and distracting your opponent (such as through screaming in their ear or stabbing) will be unbanned and encouraged. This is going to be a big change in the way the game is played, so prepare yourselves!

 

[Snackss]

Why are you talking about toughness? You show up to play. Plenty of people show up to compete, but that has nothing to do with "toughness." The entire idea here is that idiotic posturing is a big part of what causes the gender divide, and yet your solution is that everybody should be "tough" and that this will somehow compensate for and mitigate an issue that never should have existed. That doesn't make any sense. You don't solve an issue by ignoring it and hoping it somehow goes away simply because enough people tolerate it. You're putting the pressure on other people, namely women, to put up with other peoples' baloney purely for the sake of playing a video game. And I know it's not mutually exclusive, you can condemn those people and encourage women at the same time. But the problem is that no one should need to be "tough" to compete. Putting up with other people is part of any competition, even for a colorful game based mostly on Nintendo properties. But there's a difference between being competitive and being crude, a distinction certain people don't bother to make. To them, you're either being a prick with no filter and proud of it, or you're squishy and sensitive. Which is really not how things work.

So, encouraging people to be "tough" and hoping the problem goes away is not the right way for competition to be inviting, regardless of how necessary "toughness" may or may not be.

 

[FallenHero]

HOLY **** L LightLV , I swear your last few posts on here just been you basically saying "no you are wrong" in a long *** post with tons of ad-hominem and barely any explanation to why they are wrong. All of you guys need to quit focusing on the way someone's argument/opinion is presented so much and focus more on the point they are trying to make.

 

[Muro]

This could be a simple nice gesture, but of course in a nerd community these kinds of things always get a lot of resistance.

Though being a manly man myself, I'm not totally unsympathetic to a toughness check at the entrance of the venue. Pop a shotgun blast into every entrant's leg right at the start of the tourney, let us see who the true warriors are.

 

[Newbarktown]

Then: "You guys don't include us in anything! We can compete too ya know!"

Now: "I don't want to be included anymore"

 

[ChikiLucario]

This could be a simple nice gesture, but of course in a nerd community these kinds of things always get a lot of resistance.

Though being a manly man myself, I'm not totally unsympathetic to a toughness check at the entrance of the venue. Pop a shotgun blast into every entrant's leg right at the start of the tourney, let us see who the true warriors are.

What are you even saying LOL

Regardless I feel this thread is now less "Hey let's discuss" and more "OMG UR WRONG AND HERE'S WHY LET'S THROW POOP AT EACH OTHER" so I'm going to opt out. Have fun, guys.

 

[CHICO 93]

Id watch it. I think it would be good for the woman too see were they rank against their peers. I saw there was a womans crew battle at G3 that was pretty cool i hope too see some of it on youtube

 

[Thinkaman]

Consider the moderation guidelines on this discussion to be significantly stricter from this point forward. Let's be civil and have meaningful discussions.

I worry that we have a "Daily Show generation" that equates discussion of controversial issues with mockery. Please, prove me wrong.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Aww, Thinkaman, you ninja'd the fun I started to scheme while reading this thread.

Well I have a lot to say about this for a number of reasons (the first one being kind of obvious). But on second thought I'll keep it short, specially because it already got a lengthy discussion through 200+ posts.

The best way to get girls anyone to go to a tournament is to invite them. Doesn't matter if it has a theme or special rules, just inviting people makes them more likely to go.
To keep them is the difficult part.
You can do it by simply approaching them, talking a bit, being friendly, that would make them feel welcome to go again.
But no matter if it's a girl, a black guy or Jimmy777 who attends for the first time and you already forgot his face, they'll simply stop attending any future event if you make fun of them, call out on things like disabilities, color, body features or gender, or if they receive any form of harassment. It is simply more noticeable when women stop attending than when this Jimmy kid does.

Addressing one of the latest points brought up, I agree with almost everything Emblem Lord said. Everything except the way he wrote it. It came off as rude and its hyperbole was so steep that everybody seemed to miss the point of the post. But the main thing is that women do not deserve special treatment only for being women, at least not tourney-wise. There is no reason to create these events if women are perfectly capable to compete at a regular event, have no physical or physiological limitations, and there is no short or long term gain from them because they don't really address the problem from its root, I'd say that they would even enhance it: people will see these minorities as different, and these events would only make them continue to do so.
I personally find them insulting, but I won't elaborate on that any further and focus on the point.

This might be the lengthiest post I've ever written at this site.

TLDR: Go read again Emblem Lord's post and try to understand its meaning.

Also, what Thinkaman said: This thread will have more strict surveillance.

 

[deepseadiva]

Attention everyone.

These type of events are already happening.

And considering their success and UNFATHOMABLE HYPE, we are likely to see more.

I know @SmashCapps is writing an article so look forward to more information!

 

[Shouxiao]

Attention everyone.

These type of events are already happening.

And considering their success and UNFATHOMABLE HYPE, we are likely to see more.

I know @SmashCapps is writing an article so look forward to more information!

Any videos or Steam of event?

 

[LightLV]

TL;DR warning

Spoiler: [USER=329392]@FallenHero[/USER]

HOLY **** L LightLV , I swear your last few posts on here just been you basically saying "no you are wrong" in a long *** post with tons of ad-hominem and barely any explanation to why they are wrong. All of you guys need to quit focusing on the way someone's argument/opinion is presented so much and focus more on the point they are trying to make.

I am sorry you feel that way. I feel like i've done an average-to-decent job of explaining my reasoning for believing those quoted posts were flawed, so unfortunately i'm just going to have to disagree with you on that "no explanation" part, unless you're just ignoring swathes of text, which is honestly understandable, the posts are long.

I do believe that the way one's argument is presented is quite relevant to the point they're trying to make...i mean, i don't see how it couldn't. People use their words deliberately, and this is a forum, so there's really no other way to take a point in.

Soooo, yeah, approaching an argument with a paragraph of charged sarcasm actually adds alot to the point you're trying to make. People don't do that when they don't want to be misinterpreted. The response he got was completely justified from everyone he got it from.

Anyone is free to ask me to clarify my opinion though.

Spoiler: [USER=21437]@Emblem Lord[/USER]

L LightLV
This is a COMPETITIVE community. If you aren't tough then why the **** are you competing? The very nature of competition is tough. There are going to be obstacles.

*IMO*, your level of competitive drive should not be gauged by the amount of hostility you exhibit towards others while trying to win. YES, it comes with the territory, and soft-skin people probably aren't cut out for it. But I completely disagree that obstacles outside of the sport itself are just supposed to be expected. You may believe this, and that's fine. I do not.

I never said there is racial division. I was drawing a comparison between two different groups that may get hate for different reasons.

My issue was actually more with the comparison itself. It's a bit misleading, and not very much like the other. At least not in this case.

Your post about the different types of gamers actually proves my entire point. Different kinds of gamers will have different levels of reactions because the type of gaming they do has trained their reactions to that point.

My point about biological differences was previously brought up so I dont know what you said it was out of context. And once again you actually supported my argument. I was essentially saying that those differences dont matter and you said the same.

Oh, well, good then. It sounded like you were stating these differences as reasons that the gender disparity exists. Which was bothersome to me since this entirely a social issue, and none of these facts correlate well with the root cause. It's just more a "symptom", though I think that word is a bit off too.

It seems you really wanted to break down my post but added nothing to the discussion other then to say, "lol EL you are wrong."

Ok. Tell me why I'm wrong though.

And this time try not to let your bias against me show so much. It will make you look better.

I'm sorry if you think I have it out for you or something, I really don't. If we tend to disagree often, then that just means we tend to disagree often. It's not a deliberate bias towards trying to make you look wrong.

Also in regards to the Street Fighter x Tekken debacle, Aris is a ****ing moron. Period. The FGC should be about the purity of competition and the love of fighting games. NOTHING ELSE


And you all seem to misunderstand me...I dont want to cater to anyone. Men or women. I wish for FGC to be for those with the drive and passion for the games and for those that wish to take their game to the limit.

Just that and that alone. The purity of competition. If you do not have this then be gone. If you DO have this then I call you my sibling.

But in reality the ones that can change this are women themselves. I personally do not use insulting language against women and I do not shun women when they approach me for advice or ask to fight me.

If more men simply focused on the spirit of competition then this would be a non-issue. I do agree many men are idiots within the community and do not think before they speak. Hopefully that will change with time and it has but there is definitely more work to be done.

It seems as though I may have been gone too long and missed some deleted posts or something?


Regardless, the bolded is where I find issue in this stance. I used to think this way, but i feel like its a flawed opinion.

The problem with putting all the burden on the victims of this issue (women) is that it isn't the victim that's causing the problem. It's the communities, its individual men, it's cynical females, it's the game designers, it's the marketing and advertising, blah blah blah ect. And, unfortunately, it's also people who become complacent with the status quo. And before anyone gets angry...no, it's not fair to blame anyone for being indifferent to an issue, that's silly. But you should acknowledge that you are, in some small way, contributing to the issue. (And I realize that people may hyperbolize the use of the word "victim" here, and i don't mean to, but I feel it's a bit appropriate here.) And off that, I just don't think it's fair to then turn around and say "well we all have our share of problems, don't we?" when someone brings the issue up. It just kicks alot of variables under the rug and takes the problem at face value when it's actually deeper, and by doing that, you ruin chances of actually making progress because you glance over what's actually causing the problem.


That is the core of my disagreement here. YES, ideally, the pure spirit of competition is what its all about. I 100% totally agree with that. But a lack of pure spirit of competition is not the reason for the gender disparity. OR, taken a different way, it CAN be the reason. It just isn't the ultimate reason. I'm not saying women need special treatment, i'm not saying all guys are sexist, i'm not saying everyone needs to rile up and mobshame people at the first sign of what could be interpreted as harassment.


I'm just saying, i think troubleshooting works alot better when people acknowledge what the actual problem is. "Women don't care as much as men" can be a 100% TRUE FACT in the scope of this argument. But I just want people to understand...that isn't what we're actually discussing here.

And I realize it's hard to participate in this discussion without being misinterpreted into an extreme position, but that actually is just part of the territory of this type of discussion. So again, sorry if anyone just thinks I don't like them.

These posts are getting lonnnngggg!

 

[FallenHero]

TL;DR warning

Spoiler: [USER=329392]@FallenHero[/USER]

I am sorry you feel that way. I feel like i've done an average-to-decent job of explaining my reasoning for believing those quoted posts were flawed, so unfortunately i'm just going to have to disagree with you on that "no explanation" part, unless you're just ignoring swathes of text, which is honestly understandable, the posts are long.

I do believe that the way one's argument is presented is quite relevant to the point they're trying to make...i mean, i don't see how it couldn't. People use their words deliberately, and this is a forum, so there's really no other way to take a point in.

Soooo, yeah, approaching an argument with a paragraph of charged sarcasm actually adds alot to the point you're trying to make. People don't do that when they don't want to be misinterpreted. The response he got was completely justified from everyone he got it from.

Anyone is free to ask me to clarify my opinion though.

Spoiler: [USER=21437]@Emblem Lord[/USER]

*IMO*, your level of competitive drive should not be gauged by the amount of hostility you exhibit towards others while trying to win. YES, it comes with the territory, and soft-skin people probably aren't cut out for it. But I completely disagree that obstacles outside of the sport itself are just supposed to be expected. You may believe this, and that's fine. I do not.




My issue was actually more with the comparison itself. It's a bit misleading, and not very much like the other. At least not in this case.



Oh, well, good then. It sounded like you were stating these differences as reasons that the gender disparity exists. Which was bothersome to me since this entirely a social issue, and none of these facts correlate well with the root cause. It's just more a "symptom", though I think that word is a bit off too.




I'm sorry if you think I have it out for you or something, I really don't. If we tend to disagree often, then that just means we tend to disagree often. It's not a deliberate bias towards trying to make you look wrong.



It seems as though I may have been gone too long and missed some deleted posts or something?


Regardless, the bolded is where I find issue in this stance. I used to think this way, but i feel like its a flawed opinion.

The problem with putting all the burden on the victims of this issue (women) is that it isn't the victim that's causing the problem. It's the communities, its individual men, it's cynical females, it's the game designers, it's the marketing and advertising, blah blah blah ect. And, unfortunately, it's also people who become complacent with the status quo. And before anyone gets angry...no, it's not fair to blame anyone for being indifferent to an issue, that's silly. But you should acknowledge that you are, in some small way, contributing to the issue. (And I realize that people may hyperbolize the use of the word "victim" here, and i don't mean to, but I feel it's a bit appropriate here.) And off that, I just don't think it's fair to then turn around and say "well we all have our share of problems, don't we?" when someone brings the issue up. It just kicks alot of variables under the rug and takes the problem at face value when it's actually deeper, and by doing that, you ruin chances of actually making progress because you glance over what's actually causing the problem.


That is the core of my disagreement here. YES, ideally, the pure spirit of competition is what its all about. I 100% totally agree with that. But a lack of pure spirit of competition is not the reason for the gender disparity. OR, taken a different way, it CAN be the reason. It just isn't the ultimate reason. I'm not saying women need special treatment, i'm not saying all guys are sexist, i'm not saying everyone needs to rile up and mobshame people at the first sign of what could be interpreted as harassment.


I'm just saying, i think troubleshooting works alot better when people acknowledge what the actual problem is. "Women don't care as much as men" can be a 100% TRUE FACT in the scope of this argument. But I just want people to understand...that isn't what we're actually discussing here.

And I realize it's hard to participate in this discussion without being misinterpreted into an extreme position, but that actually is just part of the territory of this type of discussion. So again, sorry if anyone just thinks I don't like them.

These posts are getting lonnnngggg!

My problem was no matter how sarcastic Darknid's post was or how hostile Emblem Lord's post might have sounded, you can clearly see the point they are trying to make and people are just ignoring it and everyone just complains about the post being sarcastic or sounding hostile. There was not really much that could be misinterpreted in either of their posts.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Good post bro. Got nothing to say to that. I agree there should be no outside factors, but human nature makes that impossible. We can never create an environment free of detractors. But we CAN welcome new competitors and give the proper encouragement when they face adversity or ignorance.

I personally will never agree to women only events. I think it's self defeating. However this is just imo.

I do truly believe that women have the most power here. The power to show up. Play. And...that's it. Ignore the haters and keep showing their passion. The men that care about them and this community will respond positively to those feelings about the game because they have the same passion. Change WILL occur. As it has over human history. It just takes time unfortunately.

As an aside I recognize my personality is very intense and I speak in a very confident manner. As a result people tend to think I'm arrogant or uncaring. I assure you this is not the case. I care very much for this community, have mentored many players, was a leader in the new jersey community, and have written many articles concerning high level play. If I didn't care I would not put forth all the effort and contributions have.

 

[deepseadiva]

Any videos or Steam of event?

No stream, to my utter dismay. Supposedly some matches were recorded locally, so maybe we'll see those soon. Here's a video excerpt:

A slight excerpt of the #SmashSisters hype. #g3 Apparently I'm the closer if East Coast against Arizona. Gulp. pic.twitter.com/ft9BI9Kuxb

— Lil | Milktea (on Bsky) (@_lilchen) January 16, 2016

HYPEEEEEEEE

I personally will never agree to women only events. I think it's self defeating. However this is just imo.

What's weak about this approach is that its a great excuse to do nothing. And if literally twiddling our thumbs until women players manifest at tournaments is the plan, it's probably best to step aside while real leaders take actual action.

 

[|RK|]

And that makes his argument mean nothing? He has a good point, why should people be getting any special treatment for their gender?



I don't understand how him saying women should not be treated special is anti-feminist, that is just being fair. How does not treating a woman like they are special keep women from gaming? Maybe the main thing keeping women from gaming is that most are not interested in gaming?



He is not using exclusionary arguments as real arguments, he used them sarcastically and I know that you know that even if you say that as if he was serious.

I don't think women only tournaments will help, what will help is convincing a women to go to a regular tournament so they can get used to the environment and depending on the participants, maybe also realize that there really are not that many people there who will be a creep or sexist. Sometimes stereotypes are mostly true (not sure about the Kirby thing though, but in Smash 4 most female players from what I've seen seem to play female characters) and sometimes they are not. Some stereotypes are not even that offensive, if at all to most people.

You're right. To avoid being exclusionary, we should have female-only tournaments. Let's segregate the genders, you know, because that's what feminism is about, right?

It's not a good point, and it's not special treatment. "Special treatment" implies both parties are equal to start, and one is getting an unfair advantage. Not so in this case - a variety of social factors have caused women to shy away from these tournaments. In the interest of equality, we're making it easier for them to participate.

 

[Emblem Lord]

deepseadiva

If you perceive my statement as advocating the community take no action then so be it. I'm not here to argue with you. Such discourse would prove fruitless as you and I are certainly not adversaries.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's not a good point, and it's not special treatment. "Special treatment" implies both parties are equal to start, and one is getting an unfair advantage. Not so in this case - a variety of social factors have caused women to shy away from these tournaments. In the interest of equality, we're making it easier for them to participate.

It is special treatment because both genders have the same starting point: Being invited to tournaments.
RandomJimmy777 went to a tournament but he didn't feel welcome and stopped showing up. Karen and Julia both went to the same event and had the same aftertaste.
So you invite Karen and Julia to a certain special event catered for them. Even if they decide to go, it won't really help them if they were to receive the exact same unwelcoming atmosphere as the first event. If the problem was still there, they are likely not to show up again.
And Jimmy doesn't really get a special event so he probably won't attend anymore.

These social factors you are talking about can be solved simply by being nice and welcoming yourself and encourage others to follow. That would make not only women, but everyone, to feel comfortable to be present at more events.

 

[|RK|]

It is special treatment because both genders have the same starting point: Being invited to tournaments.
RandomJimmy777 went to a tournament but he didn't feel welcome and stopped showing up. Karen and Julia both went to the same event and had the same aftertaste.
So you invite Karen and Julia to a certain special event catered for them. Even if they decide to go, it won't really help them if they were to receive the exact same unwelcoming atmosphere as the first event. If the problem was still there, they are likely not to show up again.
And Jimmy doesn't really get a special event so he probably won't attend anymore.

These social factors you are talking about can be solved simply by being nice and welcoming yourself and encourage others to follow. That would make not only women, but everyone, to feel comfortable to be present at more events.

That's not the same starting point at all. Women are treated differently their entire lives. And simply being nice helps, but it doesn't solve the issue by itself.

 

[Nu~]

That's not the same starting point at all. Women are treated differently their entire lives. And simply being nice helps, but it doesn't solve the issue by itself.

They are, and I agree that simply being nice doesn't solve the issue. But I do not believe that women only events will bring any benefit.

Yes, this gets women more integrated into the community...but it's amongst themselves. Women will want to play smash, but they won't feel welcome to the community as a whole. Not as long as we keep isolating them.
We should be teaching the community as a whole to be more accepting to girls. Teach them to treat them the same way they would treat their guy friends.
It helps more in the long-run. All these side events do is make them more comfortable amongst themselves...which wasn't the issue.

I'm arguing that we shouldn't only get girls more interested in smash, but we should help them become more comfortable around us guys. Meaning, we have to work on the attitudes of the guys in the community.

 

[|RK|]

They are, and I agree that simply being nice doesn't solve the issue. But I do not believe that women only events will bring any benefit.

Yes, this gets women more integrated into the community...but it's amongst themselves. Women will want to play smash, but they won't feel welcome to the community as a whole. Not as long as we keep isolating them.
We should be teaching the community as a whole to be more accepting to girls. Teach them to treat them the same way they would treat their guy friends.
It helps more in the long-run. All these side events do is make them more comfortable amongst themselves...which wasn't the issue.

I'm arguing that we shouldn't only get girls more interested in smash, but we should help them become more comfortable around us guys. Meaning, we have to work on the attitudes of the guys in the community.

I agree, but this should be done as an "in addition to" thing. We should never stop trying to improve attitudes, and there should always be a path from women-only events to the mixed events. It's crucial that we not only give women a space to feel comfortable while they improve, but to also have the mixed tournaments take place in an environment that isn't exclusionary.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's not the same starting point at all. Women are treated differently their entire lives. And simply being nice helps, but it doesn't solve the issue by itself.

REALLY wanna go into an in-depth convo about this because there are truly two sides to this, but this is not the place for it.

 

[wizrad]

Kinda skipping the last few posts, buts it's pretty hard to understand someone's point as "yeah, let's encourage women to come" when it's stuck in with comments that are quite close to "they just need to grow a pair and stop being such girls".

 

[ぱみゅ]

I agree, but this should be done as an "in addition to" thing. We should never stop trying to improve attitudes, and there should always be a path from women-only events to the mixed events. It's crucial that we not only give women a space to feel comfortable while they improve, but to also have the mixed tournaments take place in an environment that isn't exclusionary.

I hope you notice the contradiction of that post.
You try to include them, but segregate them and hope not to exclude them for the mixed events, tell them to improve and maybe they'll be ready later.
That just doesn't sound right.
I mean, the intention may be good but the message you're giving is not.

Also, saying that just improving your attitude towards others is not helping is like saying that taking ecologic decisions like reduce your shower time, walk and not drive, turn off the lights you're not using, etc, do not have an impact on the ambient.
And by that I mean that it might not have it if you do it alone, but you can always encourage others to follow and good attitudes are contagious and beneficial.

 

[|RK|]

I hope you notice the contradiction of that post.
You try to include them, but segregate them and hope not to exclude them for the mixed events, tell them to improve and maybe they'll be ready later.
That just doesn't sound right.
I mean, the intention may be good but the message you're giving is not.

Also, saying that just improving your attitude towards others is not helping is like saying that taking ecologic decisions like reduce your shower time, walk and not drive, turn off the lights you're not using, etc, do not have an impact on the ambient.
And by that I mean that it might not have it if you do it alone, but you can always encourage others to follow and good attitudes are contagious and beneficial.

There is no contradiction. The fact of the matter is that women don't come out to these events because they don't feel comfortable. We solve that by giving them a place to feel comfortable while still participating in the game. You won't get equality without making real gestures to show women they're welcome. In this case, it's a side event at other tournaments.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Kinda skipping the last few posts, buts it's pretty hard to understand someone's point as "yeah, let's encourage women to come" when it's stuck in with comments that are quite close to "they just need to grow a pair and stop being such girls".

Everyone should stop being so sensitive. The world would truly be a better place. American society in general is raising an entire generation of victims. But I digress...I am happy to see that people are recognizing I made valid points. Even if they dislike my delivery. Though if you dont like how I talk, then please don't hesitate to use the ignore feature. It exists for a reason after all.

Also, I never said women should "grow a pair". But to arm themselves with the knowledge that they may encounter an asshat or two. I know this is intimidating and as Light said not everyone has the ability to simply shut out all distractions.

 

[ぱみゅ]

There is no contradiction. The fact of the matter is that women don't come out to these events because they don't feel comfortable. We solve that by giving them a place to feel comfortable while still participating in the game. You won't get equality without making real gestures to show women they're welcome. In this case, it's a side event at other tournaments.

Sorry, but I don't think that kind of undeserved recognition helps at all.
It feels like these events are putting women in a spotlight as if they were a Freak Show, and is not exactly how you make them comfortable. I know I wouldn't be.

And funny enough phrases like "growing a pair" and "man up" are the expressions that some extreme feminists try to abolish. I have always believed it was dumb to do so, but I sometimes think we give them reasons to keep that ideology...

 

[ChikiLucario]

Everyone should stop being so sensitive. The world would truly be a better place. American society in general is raising an entire generation of victims. But I digress...I am happy to see that people are recognizing I made valid points. Even if they dislike my delivery. Though if you dont like how I talk, then please don't hesitate to use the ignore feature. It exists for a reason after all.

Also, I never said women should "grow a pair". But to arm themselves with the knowledge that they may encounter an ****** or two. I know this is intimidating and as Light said not everyone has the ability to simply shut out all distractions.

I feel like I'm to blame for this quote but I was just stating what I thought on the matter, even though I also in the same post said it'd be great to be able to give confidence-lacking individuals a boost in a way that isn't patronising or counter-intuitive . I don't think it's unfair to say that 100% of people, during their lives, take a risk in doing something, right? Literally everything is a risk. Heck, there's a chance that one would have a car accident on the way to a tournament. Does anyone walk from the hotel/their house/whatever to the tournament they're attending to negate that risk? Of course not. But minimising that risk is what's important.

This whole issue has a very fine line that, once you step slightly onto one side or the other, no matter how small your contribution on the issue is, you'll get abused and told you're wrong. Such hypocrisy! It's sort of a double edged sword, because people could say I'm being a hypocrite. I dunno, man. I do wish people were a little less sensitive so that if one says something they aren't immediately labelled as a "meninist." (Is that a real thing or is it a joke? Because it sounds like a joke to me heh.)

Oops I was meant to stop posting here. Derp

 

[|RK|]

Sorry, but I don't think that kind of undeserved recognition helps at all.
It feels like these events are putting women in a spotlight as if they were a Freak Show, and is not exactly how you make them comfortable. I know I wouldn't be.

And funny enough phrases like "growing a pair" and "man up" are the expressions that some extreme feminists try to abolish. I have always believed it was dumb to do so, but I sometimes think we give them reasons to keep that ideology...

Except Genesis (and chess) has already shown that women are more likely to turn up to those events. Furthermore, I can't help but get suspicious of the term "undeserved recognition," since it looks less like it's considering the reasons women don't attend mixed events, and more like selfishness.

 

[imago^dei]

Whenever I see "We need more X in Y", I rarely see much time spent building a premise for exactly why we need more X in Y. This goes for anything; certain vocations, educational paths, and even gaming communities. And instead of spending time establishing a premise, people have knee-jerk reactions based on their politically-correct shaped values.

Not saying we don't need more X in Y, just saying we should establish a foundation for why, which would provide new information as to how we should implement such ideas. Since we just react, without considering why, we never get the how, which is why most of these programs have failed in all areas of life.

 

[wizrad]

We don't need it. It just means something that little to no women show up to tournaments. Also, for all we know, our community could be half of what it might be if we got females involved.

 

[imago^dei]

It just means something that little to no women show up to tournaments.

Of course it means something, but in other areas of life where there's a push for "more women in X", people just assume thoughtlessly that that "something" is "bad". No time is spent justifying exactly why it's bad. Until that's justified, it's a fruitless effort, if not damaging.

In my opinion, the jury is out on whether it's good, bad, or neutral that there are very few women in the Smash community. And it raises the question of if it's even worth the effort to figure out the nature of this lack.

From the data (tournaments, sales, etc.), the Smash world seems relatively healthy...at least on the surface.

 

[deepseadiva]

More players is always better. Community growth is always better.

It's not much deeper than that.

 

[Muro]

REALLY wanna go into an in-depth convo about this because there are truly two sides to this, but this is not the place for it.

tell us about the male struggle.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not so much male struggle, but women do meet two sides of males. One where they may be looked down upon and the other where they may be put on a pedestal.

RJ Joker was correct. For better or for worse women are indeed treated differently by men by sheer virtue of the fact that they are women.

BTW nice try with that bait. Try harder next time though.

 

[Muro]

Not so much male struggle

See, there wasn't any need for an in-depth convo, you got it done in a sentence.

 

[Emblem Lord]

oh no we can def get into the origins of patriarchy as well as the motives of the original feminist movement compared to what it is now. I mean there are entire books and essays written on this subject matter.

But its neither here nor there and ultimately only partially relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[Wintropy]

I broached this subject before and I don't think there was much of a discussion on it, but I'm going to play devil's advocate again and bring this query back up, because I think it warrants further dissemination:

Why is it that we're explicitly appealing to the female demographic, and why don't we extend the same courtesy to, say, older gamers / "seniors" (as in chess), younger gamers / "juniors" (as in chess) or other facets of society? Is it because there isn't as wide a perceived demographic as there is for women? How do we know if we haven't extended the olive branch to them?

For all I know, there may be a non-trivial community of "senior" gamers (let's say 50+, since the Smash community tend to have an average age cap of somewhere in the 30s range) that have an interest in playing in tournaments, but they don't because they'd feel out of place. I'd understand why, a 60 year old man playing video games in the company of teenagers and young adults may seem unconventional at best, sinister at worst, but maybe an express invitation would help diminish those concerns. I know for a fact there are younger players (13 and below) that have an interest in coming to tourneys but feel concerned that it will be an adult-oriented event. Helping the TOs of my local scene has made me realise that a number of these younger players - that otherwise have access to the venue and permission from their parents or guardians - feel that they won't "fit in" because the majority of players there are older teens or adults.

I don't know - I just feel that, if we're going to open the door to one demographic (a good idea and definitely something we should do if there's interest for it), we should be willing to open the door to others. Not to say that anybody has directly quashed the idea of having senior / junior tournaments, but I think we should consider other ways to foster growth in the community beyond just getting one token minority involved and patting ourselves on the back for it.