Should Smash consider women-only tournaments? Clear numbers say its great for community growth.

[p1ay6ack]

It's nowhere near the diversity of MOBA communities, but it's slowly getting there. You are right though that, to my knowledge, the FGC has not tried to force diversity in recent years unless you want to count that one woman's invitational at EVO.

To answer why there aren't many girl players in Smash, you have to answer why there aren't many girl console gamers in comparison to male console gamers. Part of it is really marketing. Even when you have the gender option, the male is usually more prominent in marketing, if not the only one to show up in marketing. There are at least two recent exceptions to this.

The Wii Fit Trainer is always shown as a girl outside of the games. The female one opened the Wii Fit U direct and was the original one announced for Smash 4. Then there's Splatoon where the Inkling girl (Woomy) had way more of a following than the male one (Ng'yes). You see more Woomy than Ng'yes when you're playing the game and Woomy takes the focus on the boxart.

this is more on society issue and sure this problem arose because of marketing, but um, what can we conclude from this in relation to a female only tournament?

 

[deepseadiva]

The biggest disparity between the chess case presented and Smash is the source of money. As Jennifer Shahade herself said in the quoted segments, it all comes down to money.

In Smash, there is no organization able to seriously subsidize a women's only bracket.

The theoretical result of these tournaments would be that they could eventually subsidize themselves. I agree though, the biggest issue between transferring this idea from chess to Smash is the size of the games. I will point out that Smash was the second biggest game at EVO this year (300 less players that Street Fighter). Double the size of Street Fighter if you combine Melee + Smash 4. If esports wants to reach out, Smash is a popular enough game to try.

I can't imagine community harmony and inclusion resulting from any subsection of the community getting an exclusive pot of their own subsidized with funds directly taking from grassroots funding from the broader events.

At some point Smash, and gaming as a whole needs to face the fact that women, intentionally or not, are being excluded. Smash has never been inclusive to begin with.

Even in chess, this does sort of rub me the wrong way. Why should all chess players, male and female, be forced to pay into an organizational structure that subsidizes Jennifer Shahade's lifestyle? She's clearly a skilled played, and achieved such in spite of pressure against women in chess, but is that something that does indeed merit specific financial subsidy by all other organized chess players? From my viewpoint, the answer is neither clearly yes or no.

In chess this was clearly a good move. It's a little uncomfortable, and its not the perfect solution, but it does its intended purpose and boosts numbers of women players. It merits financial attention because it seems to be the only concrete plan of action that boosts those numbers. The only alternative plans have been a nebulous "be more respectful to women", and "continue doing nothing". Neither of those are gonna make real dents.

 

[Shouxiao]

It's nowhere near the diversity of MOBA communities, but it's slowly getting there. You are right though that, to my knowledge, the FGC has not tried to force diversity in recent years unless you want to count that one woman's invitational at EVO.

To answer why there aren't many girl players in Smash, you have to answer why there aren't many girl console gamers in comparison to male console gamers. Part of it is really marketing. Even when you have the gender option, the male is usually more prominent in marketing, if not the only one to show up in marketing. There are at least two recent exceptions to this.

The Wii Fit Trainer is always shown as a girl outside of the games. The female one opened the Wii Fit U direct and was the original one announced for Smash 4. Then there's Splatoon where the Inkling girl (Woomy) had way more of a following than the male one (Ng'yes). You see more Woomy than Ng'yes when you're playing the game and Woomy takes the focus on the boxart.

I just assume that there are different interest among culture and genders. When it comes to marketing things often have an audience that is not the target demographic.

As far as the community goes nobody is stopping anyone. It is not like I or anyone would find a tournament that is no Asian, no Black, no Females, etc or something mess up like that.

I say just let diversity be natural where anyone can play and join. In the Fighting Game and MOBA communities there is a huge mix of players. In the case of MOBA communities many teams are mixed when it comes to ethnic groups.

When it comes to females and competitive Smash I think the best thing is for them to prove that they can beat anyone. Doing well at a big tournament that is streamed would earn a lot more respect and people would take her more seriously.

 

[PStoken]

At some point Smash, and gaming as a whole needs to face the fact that women, intentionally or not, are being excluded. Smash has never been inclusive to begin with.

I don't get this, or this whole thing for the matter. How are they being excluded? Do you have anyhting that documents this?
this is crazy.

. It merits financial attention because it seems to be the only concrete plan of action that boosts those numbers. The only alternative plans have been a nebulous "be more respectful to women", and "continue doing nothing". Neither of those are gonna make real dents.

They're not children, god, what is it that they can't do that men can.

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't get this, or this whole thing for the matter. How are they being excluded? Do you have anyhting that documents this?
this is crazy.

Is there even 1 woman in the Smash top 100? What percent of tournament attendees are women? I don't know exactly, but I'll guess it's around "pitiful".

This disparity is real. For whatever reason.

 

[Xermo]

Is there even 1 woman in the Smash top 100? What percent of tournament attendees are women? I don't know exactly, but I'll guess it's around "pitiful".

This disparity is real. For whatever reason.

That doesn't refute his statement. Women aren't being excluded, they're just not in the top pool of players (even then that isn't true as I'm sure there were some female players who placed high at some national recently).

 

[Shouxiao]

That doesn't refute his statement. Women aren't being excluded, they're just not in the top pool of players (even then that isn't true as I'm sure there were some female players who placed high at some national recently).

When it comes to casual Smash players there are a lot more female players than people think. When it come to competition play there may not be as many female players but there are strong female players in tournament scenes across the world. No one can deny this.

No one is being excluded. It is not like someone is going to go to a tournament and they can not get in due their race and or gender. There has never been any "Female banned" tournaments.

 

[Big-Cat]

this is more on society issue and sure this problem arose because of marketing, but um, what can we conclude from this in relation to a female only tournament?

I'd say you'd have to market the women's tournament right and through the right venues. Like others have said, it's a good concept, but I see a lot of trouble in trying to execute it well.

 

[aεrgiα]

hmm, while i dont think women are excluded, i do think there is a "lack" of women so to speak, now this may be due to a number of reasons, for one it may just be that competitive smash is just not appealing to women, or it may be that theres certain aspects of the comunity that deter women from joining, maybe its something simple as lacking a role model, maybe if there was a female player that came out and got largely successful, maybe we would see a huge increase in female players, what i do know though is that the immaturity of the community on things such as twitch, and potentially redit(i rarely use redit so i dont wanna say anything wrong, ive seen a few not so nice comments there, but those may have just been the exception) can indeed dissuade a woman from getting into the community, i mean if even i, as a male, get annoyed at the constant "omg its a grill" and other such comments(the fact that these female players usually get judged on their appearances doesnt make it any better) then i dont want to know what its like for women, and sure, this is bareable if ur a big fan of the series/love the game, but if ur just testing the waters, i can see this as being very off putting. now u may say "but twitch isnt the same as going to a tournament" and i would agree, thats true but for many people looking to get into the scene, twitch and other such services are the first step to doing so and a "testing the waters" kind of thing. at the very least i know that twitch and youtube where the first things i looked to when i thought i wanted to get a bit more into smash 4... (as during brawl i stayed very local in regards to my community but moving made that kind of impossible )

Edit: i will add that its not always that bad, and i have been positively impressed by the community on some occasions, for example on one stream there was a female commentator who did a good job and got judged exactly as that, a commentator, but sadly this is rarely the case

 

[Shouxiao]

hmm, while i dont think women are excluded, i do think there is a "lack" of women so to speak, now this may be due to a number of reasons, for one it may just be that competitive smash is just not appealing to women, or it may be that theres certain aspects of the comunity that deter women from joining, maybe its something simple as lacking a role model, maybe if there was a female player that came out and got largely successful, maybe we would see a huge increase in female players, what i do know though is that the immaturity of the community on things such as twitch, and potentially redit(i rarely use redit so i dont wanna say anything wrong, ive seen a few not so nice comments there, but those may have just been the exception) can indeed dissuade a woman from getting into the community, i mean if even i, as a male, get annoyed at the constant "omg its a grill" and other such comments(the fact that these female players usually get judged on their appearances doesnt make it any better) then i dont want to know what its like for women, and sure, this is bareable if ur a big fan of the series/love the game, but if ur just testing the waters, i can see this as being very off putting. now u may say "but twitch isnt the same as going to a tournament" and i would agree, thats true but for many people looking to get into the scene, twitch and other such services are the first step to doing so and a "testing the waters" kind of thing. at the very least i know that twitch and youtube where the first things i looked to when i thought i wanted to get a bit more into smash 4... (as during brawl i stayed very local in regards to my community but moving made that kind of impossible )

Edit: i will add that its not always that bad, and i have been positively impressed by the community on some occasions, for example on one stream there was a female commentator who did a good job and got judged exactly as that, a commentator, but sadly this is rarely the case

I can agree there. Honestly I think the biggest increase in interest for the tournament scene would be if a female player were to be a role model and place high or win a tournament. No one is being excluded.

As for things like the twitch chat and stuff I think like this. It is the Internet and there is always going to be trolls regardless of who somebody is. How ever that should not get any one down. This would be going in a different topic but I think most of that happens due to certain streamers given a bad rep for females. It is different for females that become well respected in a community. The chat is not "gurl" or something like that 24/7.

 

[PStoken]

Of course twitch chat is cancer,''grill''' is one of many staples, like rsident sleeper, tr4shvs meele, etc, but dont form an opinion on just that,it doesnt represent the male attitude in tournies at all.
if one could go just form opinions based on small ocurrences, one would think all girls in a smash tourney are just there to pick up guys or to garner attention, or would think all gay men main peach. which is not true.

 

[FallenHero]

I would like to see this happen in locals just to see the result, but I doubt it will help that much. deepseadiva Women are definitely not being "excluded" from gaming, gaming has been a hobby that not many females are into for a long time and I don't think it is because of them being excluded from gaming. I think it is just that most women are not interested in gaming, and even less interested in competitive gaming, let alone competitive Smash. A small amount of female top players compared to male top players can mean many things, and I think women being excluded is the least likely reason. I think it means that Smash is not a big enough e-sport yet, we don't know of any female Smash players that are good enough to make it into the top 100, or there are not any female players that make it into the top 100. It likely will not have the same effect since Chess and Smash are two very different things.

hmm, while i dont think women are excluded, i do think there is a "lack" of women so to speak, now this may be due to a number of reasons, for one it may just be that competitive smash is just not appealing to women, or it may be that theres certain aspects of the comunity that deter women from joining, maybe its something simple as lacking a role model, maybe if there was a female player that came out and got largely successful, maybe we would see a huge increase in female players, what i do know though is that the immaturity of the community on things such as twitch, and potentially redit(i rarely use redit so i dont wanna say anything wrong, ive seen a few not so nice comments there, but those may have just been the exception) can indeed dissuade a woman from getting into the community, i mean if even i, as a male, get annoyed at the constant "omg its a grill" and other such comments(the fact that these female players usually get judged on their appearances doesnt make it any better) then i dont want to know what its like for women, and sure, this is bareable if ur a big fan of the series/love the game, but if ur just testing the waters, i can see this as being very off putting. now u may say "but twitch isnt the same as going to a tournament" and i would agree, thats true but for many people looking to get into the scene, twitch and other such services are the first step to doing so and a "testing the waters" kind of thing. at the very least i know that twitch and youtube where the first things i looked to when i thought i wanted to get a bit more into smash 4... (as during brawl i stayed very local in regards to my community but moving made that kind of impossible )

Edit: i will add that its not always that bad, and i have been positively impressed by the community on some occasions, for example on one stream there was a female commentator who did a good job and got judged exactly as that, a commentator, but sadly this is rarely the case

Unfortunately the chat in twitch streams will always be full of people saying dumb **** trying to look funny or be a troll. I get annoyed by the "omg its a grill" and a whole bunch of other things in twitch chat that don't really have anything to do with gender, but that is why I barely look at the chat in streams I am not subbed to or has a lot of people typing in the chat. Chat is cancer and there isn't really anything we can do about it.

 

[aεrgiα]

Of course twitch chat is cancer,''grill''' is one of many staples, like rsident sleeper, tr4shvs meele, etc, but dont form an opinion on just that,it doesnt represent the male attitude in tournies at all.
if one could go just form opinions based on small ocurrences, one would think all girls in a smash tourney are just there to pick up guys or to garner attention, or would think all gay men main peach. which is not true.

ofc it doesnt represent tournies at all, but before going to tournaments, looking into the scene is the first step, where twitch plays a huge role, and if im put off by twitch chat i may not even give tournaments a chance, in which case it doesnt matter how nice the people are on site, because it never gets to that stage. and ofc thats just twitch chat and the internet for you, but that doesnt mean that its not a potential problem... i mean the whole tr4sh vs gaylay just goes to show exactly how stupid it can get, when people watch smash 4(or melee) just to complain about that game, when at the same time theres a stream of their prefered game streaming at the same time, like what?!?

 

[Shouxiao]

ofc it doesnt represent tournies at all, but before going to tournaments, looking into the scene is the first step, where twitch plays a huge role, and if im put off by twitch chat i may not even give tournaments a chance, in which case it doesnt matter how nice the people are on site, because it never gets to that stage. and ofc thats just twitch chat and the internet for you, but that doesnt mean that its not a potential problem... i mean the whole tr4sh vs gaylay just goes to show exactly how stupid it can get, when people watch smash 4(or melee) just to complain about that game, when at the same time theres a stream of their prefered game streaming at the same time, like what?!?

That is with any game streamed on Twitch though. There is 1000s or even 100k people in a more or less unrestricted chat. There shall often be a lot of trolling and dumb stuff said in chat.

The chat may not be bad when hype moments and matches are going on most of the time but I suggest people just watch fullscreen.

 

[FallenHero]

ofc it doesnt represent tournies at all, but before going to tournaments, looking into the scene is the first step, where twitch plays a huge role, and if im put off by twitch chat i may not even give tournaments a chance, in which case it doesnt matter how nice the people are on site, because it never gets to that stage. and ofc thats just twitch chat and the internet for you, but that doesnt mean that its not a potential problem... i mean the whole tr4sh vs gaylay just goes to show exactly how stupid it can get, when people watch smash 4(or melee) just to complain about that game, when at the same time theres a stream of their prefered game streaming at the same time, like what?!?

A lot of them are either just trolling and don't actually hate the game they are watching, at least I think so, because I just find it sad and difficult to think that there are people who actually call Melee "gaylay" or Smash 4 "tr4sh" and mean it. I agree that the chat does not represent tournaments at all, but I also think what the chat says doesn't even represent what the people in the chat actually think.

 

[deepseadiva]

That doesn't refute his statement. Women aren't being excluded, they're just not in the top pool of players (even then that isn't true as I'm sure there were some female players who placed high at some national recently).

When 60% of gamers are only 9% of attendance obviously some wall is there.

 

[Jenna Zant]

Isn't hosting women-only tournaments no more sexist that refusing a women to a normal tournament?

 

[DunnoBro]

If it's for the sake of fostering networking between the girls of smash I don't see the issue. I won't particularly push for it but wouldn't burn anyone at the stake for trying it.

I'm nowhere near as concerned with notions of "equality" or 'sexism" as most are, but I am concerned with the smash community and I think any event to try bringing more people into it that isn't misleading or malicious is an event worth trying. Only downside I see is some ideological disagreement. (And some... awkward twitch comments)

When 60% of gamers are only 9% of attendance obviously some wall is there.

Women do not make up 60% of console gamers. Not even close. I'm sure there's steps towards progress to be made but it isn't by misconstruing the facts.

 

[Jenna Zant]

If it's for the sake of fostering networking between the girls of smash I don't see the issue. I won't particularly push for it but wouldn't burn anyone at the stake for trying it.

Making women-exclusive tournaments wouldn't work for getting more women into the scene. What, instead, we should do, is just accept anyone who joins the competitive Smash scene with open arms and open minds. A nicer community (not to say that Smash community isn't nice, in fact, it's one of the nicest gaming communities out there.) will get more women into the scene, at least, if they're interested in it.

 

[DunnoBro]

Making women-exclusive tournaments wouldn't work for getting more women into the scene. What, instead, we should do, is just accept anyone who joins the competitive Smash scene with open arms and open minds. A nicer community (not to say that Smash community isn't nice, in fact, it's one of the nicest gaming communities out there.) will get more women into the scene, at least, if they're interested in it.

I don't think any of us know for sure how women-exclusive tournaments would end up. But I don't think grouping people by Age, Gender, or other likenesses is an inherently bad thing.

Some people just very much believe this could be helpful for the community, and without concrete proof it won't or could have converse effects, I just think we shouldn't give those people grief if they try it. I'm not suggesting myself or anyone else who doesn't quite agree push for it. I just don't see the harm.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The problem isn't with Smash or the community. Our attitudes are mostly fine.

Ask any smasher if girls, gays, whatever should be able to attend and 99% of them will say yes.

The issue isn't us. It's how the media perceives us.

And that won't change for years to come.

We have to overcome the stereotype first. Then girls will feel safer and be more open about their love of games.

A girl only tournament may help, but the progress would be such a small amount that I'm not sure it's worth our time. If the coverage is big enough, then maybe something would happen, but that's a big if... Local events like this won't do **** though.

Regardless, I'm worried about a few new girls coming to the event and then never showing up to the normal ones.Regardless, would guys be invited to watch/interact so that people can meet and interact?

 

[FallenHero]

When 60% of gamers are only 9% of attendance obviously some wall is there.

W-what?
First of all: Where the hell did you get your information that 60% of gamers are female? How did the study define a "gamer"?

Second of all: There is no "wall" preventing a woman from participating in a tournament other than idiots in twitch chat trying to be funny (who I like to believe don't actually think the same way they type in chat) and a lack of interest from women themselves.

The problem isn't with Smash or the community. Our attitudes are mostly fine.

Ask any smasher if girls, gays, whatever should be able to attend and 99% of them will say yes.

The issue isn't us. It's how the media perceives us.

And that won't change for years to come.

We have to overcome the stereotype first. Then girls will feel safer and be more open about their love of games.

A girl only tournament may help, but the progress would be such a small amount that I'm not sure it's worth our time. If the coverage is big enough, then maybe something would happen, but that's a big if... Local events like this won't do **** though.

Regardless, I'm worried about a few new girls coming to the event and then never showing up to the normal ones.Regardless, would guys be invited to watch/interact so that people can meet and interact?

I think the biggest problem is the way games are marketed and the way many people who are not gamers perceive people who are gamers. I've seen and heard about many people who were called a "man child" just because they play video games after a certain age, or how some consider gamers "losers", though I thankfully live in a time where it isn't considered weird to play video games. Many gamers are looked at as just a bunch of sexist men, when that just isn't true at all.

 

[aεrgiα]

A lot of them are either just trolling and don't actually hate the game they are watching, at least I think so, because I just find it sad and difficult to think that there are people who actually call Melee "gaylay" or Smash 4 "tr4sh" and mean it. I agree that the chat does not represent tournaments at all, but I also think what the chat says doesn't even represent what the people in the chat actually think.

see while i agree with you, the thing that matters isnt what they think, what matters is what they actually say. especially when im just looking into the community for the first time, how do i know whether the people are joking or are being serious? and even jokes can get annoying, extreme example: if i meet a woman and ask her what shes doing outside the kitchen, it doesnt matter that i actually dont think like that, thats probably the last time ill ever speak with her first impressions make a difference, and sadly twitch chat, regardless of its trolling nature, is not a good first impression

 

[Shouxiao]

W-what?
First of all: Where the hell did you get your information that 60% of gamers are female? How did the study define a "gamer"?

Second of all: There is no "wall" preventing a woman from participating in a tournament other than idiots in twitch chat trying to be funny (who I like to believe don't actually think the same way they type in chat) and a lack of interest from women themselves.



I think the biggest problem is the way games are marketed and the way many people who are not gamers perceive people who are gamers. I've seen and heard about many people who were called a "man child" just because they play video games after a certain age, or how some consider gamers "losers", though I thankfully live in a time where it isn't considered weird to play video games. Many gamers are looked at as just a bunch of sexist men, when that just isn't true at all.

Exactly. The Smash community and FGC(fighting game community) is very diverse and accepting to any one who wants to join. People go to tournaments to prove their skills, have fun, and be a part of Smash.

There are no tournaments that are female banned or anything.

As far as the media goes it does suck that it views us this way but at the same time I am like screw the media. I always figure the media is going to be bias towards anything.

 

[DunnoBro]

W-what?
First of all: Where the hell did you get your information that 60% of gamers are female? How did the study define a "gamer"?

There's a recent batch of gaming-related studies from Pew circulating a good few of the gaming media sites which tries to claim the majority of gamers/console owners are female. But the question asked was "Do you have a console in your home" and not "Do you play it."

There've been similar misleading studies saying similar things for a while now, and they all have an issue. Considering the sites circulating this information have a history of fearmongering and manipulating facts... I'm hesitant to believe I'm just being paranoid about how ambiguous the polling criteria was.

 

[Zhyrri]

I don't think the problem has anything to do with sexism at all. I think it has to do with the mentality of female smashers themselves. Every time I see a girl at a smashfest or tournament, they kinda just sit in the corner not participating or play a few games, then say that they aren't that good and stop playing. The issue is that they give up before they get their foot in the door, which will mean that they will always be bad and therefore never taken seriously. Another issue is the "I don't want to go because it's gonna be a sasuagefest and I don't want to be the only girl there." mentality. If 10+ plus girls believe the same thing for the same event, then you can see the fallacy with that thinking.

If women want to make a presence in the scene then they need to actually be present. They need to stop caring about what other people think and go to fests, play some matches and get good enough to compete.

 

[deepseadiva]

W-what?
First of all: Where the hell did you get your information that 60% of gamers are female? How did the study define a "gamer"?

Second of all: There is no "wall" preventing a woman from participating in a tournament other than idiots in twitch chat trying to be funny (who I like to believe don't actually think the same way they type in chat) and a lack of interest from women themselves.

There's a historical term for this unseen wall actually. It's called a glass ceiling.

There's a recent batch of gaming-related studies from Pew circulating a good few of the gaming media sites which tries to claim the majority of gamers/console owners are female. But the question asked was "Do you have a console in your home" and not "Do you play it."

There've been similar misleading studies saying similar things for a while now, and they all have an issue. Considering the sites circulating this information have a history of fearmongering and manipulating facts... I'm hesitant to believe I'm just being paranoid about how ambiguous the polling criteria was.

That is a different question. I'll avoid using that data reference.

Women are still a huge portion of the gaming market, and like in chess, encouraging their numbers in this game should be the focus of our discussion. Smash has the unique potential of being the most accessible fighting game for a lot people. We must take advantage. Competition lives and dies off participation.

The problem isn't with Smash or the community. Our attitudes are mostly fine.

Ask any smasher if girls, gays, whatever should be able to attend and 99% of them will say yes.

The issue isn't us. It's how the media perceives us.

And that won't change for years to come.

We have to overcome the stereotype first. Then girls will feel safer and be more open about their love of games.

A girl only tournament may help, but the progress would be such a small amount that I'm not sure it's worth our time. If the coverage is big enough, then maybe something would happen, but that's a big if... Local events like this won't do **** though.

Regardless, I'm worried about a few new girls coming to the event and then never showing up to the normal ones.Regardless, would guys be invited to watch/interact so that people can meet and interact?

We shouldn't avoid experimenting and trying something new just because it might not work. Especially if it means new players. All women tournaments? All Mexican tournaments? Serving hor d'oeuvers? #1 let's not be scared to trailblaze.

 

[Thinkaman]

We shouldn't avoid experimenting and trying something new just because it might not work. Especially if it means new players. All women tournaments? All Mexican tournaments? Serving hor d'oeuvers? #1 let's not be scared to trailblaze.

Well, it's entirely possible that poorly executed experiments can make public perception problems worse.

I can say with 100% certainty that whenever there is a women's-only event for any sport, part of the audience (or those who hear about it) take it as implicit evidence that women are on average not as skilled or competitive as men.

Regardless of how you or I feel, most of the public regards the WNBA as a joke. Males hold every Olympic record except the discus throw. And while this may not carry over directly into eSports, reaction time certain does and averages better for males across age demographics.

I have no interest in boorish arguments about how women are supposedly less capable or less competitive than men according to genetics or evolution or astrology or whatever. I'm just laying out plainly that if you do present women's events as separate, it furthers a common narrative that says women have to have their own walled garden to compete in.

It implies that women = JV, which is the root of most sexism in society.

 

[ARISTOS]

Interjecting for a second.

When looking at whether women are excluded from these environments, there is a tendency to look at things based on rules ("There is no rule keeping women from participating in Smash; there is no law preventing women from becoming engineers").

Most cases in society no longer have lawful structures that keep people from participating in what they choose (outside of financial barriers, but this is unlikely to be solved). Instead, there are often times social structures that can dissuade people who may benefit from participation. It can be as wide ranging from active dissuasion ( telling an outsider to GTFO) to simply not seeing someone similar to yourself .For example, if there are no black students at the school you want to go, even if the school is a perfect fit, you may end up having doubts on whether you belong, whether or not anyone has actually told you you didn't belong.

This is why many social structures actively create programs to ensure that minority populations are given attention-these programs more often then not work in retaining minorities who have taken the plunge and encourage others to join these institutions.

Tying it back to Smash, we can see a clear disparity in the number of women who participate in the competitive scene (this isn't removed from competitive gaming in general though). Is this a problem though? We've heard from community members like Milktea that the community isn't always the best towards women. We're also not that far removed from the Alex Strife fiasco. We could certainly do better in encouraging more participation from females. By doing so, we could allow for a fostering of talent that otherwise wouldn't have had the space to do this.

While a female-only tournaments may irk some, I think it could work in providing a space for female players to engage with each other. People like being in places where they have others like themselves involved, and having a tournament like that could help in providing a comfortable (in comfortable, not in a "men are creepers" way, but in a "other girls may be fun to play with" way) space for players to play.

I don't think the problem has anything to do with sexism at all. I think it has to do with the mentality of female smashers themselves. Every time I see a girl at a smashfest or tournament, they kinda just sit in the corner not participating or play a few games, then say that they aren't that good and stop playing. The issue is that they give up before they get their foot in the door, which will mean that they will always be bad and therefore never taken seriously. Another issue is the "I don't want to go because it's gonna be a sasuagefest and I don't want to be the only girl there." mentality. If 10+ plus girls believe the same thing for the same event, then you can see the fallacy with that thinking.

This is an example of what I mean. They likely don't feel comfortable or welcome- it isn't anyone's fault for this. Even if they enjoy the activity, they might feel like they don't fit in. It's like if someone goes to a party where they might feel out of place; no one's causing them to feel alone (though someone might), but simply because of the makeup of the room, they might leave before they could gain something of value from the party. If we can avoid this happening, this is a good thing.

It implies that women = JV, which is the root of most sexism in society.

Like in the chess example, women's events should never be a counterpart to the main event. In your examples, there is men's Olympic sports and women's Olympic sports; the NBA and the WNBA. We should have an Open event and a women's event, with real incentives to be in the main event (larger prize pools, better competition, etc.). Women's events should not be where women cap their play-they should (and probably will) be encouraged to join the full competition.

I think the more important question is "Does Smash have the financial backing to run such an event?" On a grassroots level, not really sure, but I would likely lean towards no given the shoestring budgets most tournaments are run on.

 

[|RK|]

Chess isn't Smash.
Artificially creating a safe "starter zone" for female players to get into the game, when both sex are already encouraged to participate in the community, sounds redundant and demeaning. You don't peak interest for something by isolating your target interest and making them feel different.

Respectfully, it's posts like this that keep female tournament attendence low. It's the belief that everything is great and fine and things will sort themselves out. Fact of the matter is it isn't fine. Sure, the community is accepting (from what I've seen), but there's no way for women who don't already participate to know that. Furthermore, one bad experience can cause women to stop attending tournaments entirely.

You can't start pressing for total equality after years of women being on the lower rung. Things don't change overnight, and doing things in an "equal" way only keeps women on the lower rung.

 

[FSLink]

Whether women-only tournaments are necessary is entirely on how the community treats women, and whether women feel it is a space worth exploring. There is a very social aspect to tournaments and very few people would want to pursue a hobby or passion if it means just getting incessantly bullied or teased or badmouthed. If we're at 9% right now, but the girls (and boys!) in the community can create a space that encourages women to play in tournaments, then a natural progression can happen. If it seems almost impossible, women-only tournaments can be the boost that allows women to check out their first tournament, then go into the all genders tournaments from there.

While a female-only tournaments may irk some, I think it could work in providing a space for female players to engage with each other. People like being in places where they have others like themselves involved, and having a tournament like that could help in providing a comfortable (in comfortable, not in a "men are creepers" way, but in a "other girls may be fun to play with" way) space for players to play.

I agree with these posts.

The Ladies' Night idea also seems like a good idea too.

While I do think the majority of the competitive scene is welcoming to all, there's still a few bad eggs, and there's still more we could do to have a climate of being more welcoming of new people too uncomfortable to enter their first tournament. There's still work we can still do, and something we should strive for instead of being complacent that it'll work out.

 

[deepseadiva]

"Ladies Night" is my favorite name for this so far.

I'm just laying out plainly that if you do present women's events as separate, it furthers a common narrative that says women have to have their own walled garden to compete in.

A garden for player base growth isn't the worst idea. As long as its not walled, which has been done before believe it or not. All-male tournaments have been organized, seemingly in emulation of physical sports. Thankfully they did better:

"The IeSF Board addressed its reason for maintaining events for women, citing the importance of providing female gamers with ample opportunities to compete in e-Sports—currently a male-dominated industry. Female gamers make up half of the world's gaming population, but only a small percentage of e-Sports competitors are women. The IeSF's female-only competitions aim to bring more diversity to competitive play by improving the representation of women at these events. Without efforts to improve representation, e-Sports can't achieve true gender equality."

 

[Thinkaman]

I guess I'll summarize my position with an analogy:

I think getting more women in STEM is a very important goal, and respect efforts to both dispel negative stigma and ensure proper recognition to female accomplishments in these fields.

But I'd never suggest that female-exclusive engineering schools would be a productive answer, and fear that such might even do more harm than good.

 

[ARISTOS]

I guess I'll summarize my position with an analogy:

I think getting more women in STEM is a very important goal, and respect efforts to both dispel negative stigma and ensure proper recognition to female accomplishments in these fields.

But I'd never suggest that female-exclusive engineering schools would be a productive answer, and fear that such might even do more harm than good.

I think we're in agreement here, or at least not too far off.

Creating a separate engineering school for women would essentially lead to the engineering version of the WNBA- an organization on the cuff continuously vying for legitimacy. This is no bueno.

Female-exclusive engineering clubs and organizations, however, could be (and are) vital in giving females a space to learn more and share engineering stuff in an environment with people like themselves. Of course, the incentive is for them to take on these engineering programs- you don't get anything for being part of an engineering club- but an environment where one feels welcome allows for the fostering and further development of interest in the field, which then translates to more female engineers, a more diverse engineer class, and hopefully a stronger pool of engineers overall.

 

[BundleofNerves]

No. Putting up a gender barrier is a terrible idea. Gender shouldn't matter. And it wouldn't encourage women to come out of the imaginary gamer closet. It would just encourage guys to egg them on and pretend like they're one of the group when they're really just giving fake niceties because they can't be themselves around the opposite sex. The gaming world is covered in insecure males, but women who want to be a top competitor in tourneys are just going to have to knuckle down and put up with their condescension. You can't force people to change. Myself, I have no gender barrier. I was having a tennis match with some woman a while ago and she kept getting hit by the ball. I wasn't aiming for her, she kept missing or stepping too far into her swing. Well, her boyfriend couldn't have his precious little flower getting beaten up by the big, mean, monster. So he came up to me mid-match and accused me of being abusive. And their was no fake niceties in his voice. I told him it's her fault, not mine and you know what he did? Punched me square in the face, bloody nose. She came over and tried to calm him down while I toweled off and he just kept looking at me with bloodlust in his eyes. I was giving my usual, neutral eyed expression that means, "I'm in my head right now, come back later." but nothing I did was going to stop the aggression in his head. He was kicked out and his GF gave him a kiss but went to sit down inside after and kept looking at me from across the room, wide eyed. It's nothing new for me, I've got enough anxiety to go completely numb, I didn't feel a thing until I saw the nosebleed. Point is, giving special treatment is ridiculous and so are the people that follow that practice.

 

[teluoborg]

Women do not compete in tournaments because most of them have a casual approach towards video game, not because they are women. Thinking a women only tournament will fix the "problem" of female attendance is sexist. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative sexism, you're just considerating people's gender takes priority over their qualities.

What you need is an amateur bracket (a parallel bracket that you enter if you get dropped out of pools) which is addressed to lower level players regardless of their gender because along with women there are a a lot of male players that have a casual level at Smash and making women only tournament will segregate them.

There, the non issue is fixed. PS : for the "only 9% of tournament attenders are women" bull**** you should probably learn what demographics mean to understand why it's not a bad thing. Gender equality isn't about having a 50/50 ratio everywhere.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I have no interest in boorish arguments about how women are supposedly less capable or less competitive than men according to genetics or evolution or astrology or whatever.

And while this may not carry over directly into eSports, reaction time certain does and averages better for males across age demographics.

Reaction time clearly does matter a lot for eSports, and regardless of the reason, this gap in reaction time would explain a lot. Of course if you've got worse reaction times you're going to be at a disadvantage and lose more often, all else considered, which can be discouraging and cause you to give up. What was really interesting was that you said that reaction times are consistently better across age demographics, presumably including age demographics which would be predominantly nongamers, which would seem to work against the notion that this gap is merely as a result of male gamers tending to be more "hardcore" gamers for social/environmental reasons. As much as you equate scientific arguments based on genetics and evolution with astrology, genetics and evolution are in fact real and highly relevant to many social issues, even if you're not supposed to talk about them, and while I'm not personally familiar enough with the existing data to come to any solid conclusion myself, it makes sense under a hunter/gatherer paradigm that reaction time would be more important and more rigorously selected for in the former than the latter, so whether or not such an argument is true(I don't really know), I don't see why it would be boorish or beyond the pale to consider it as a possibility based on the information you yourself provided.

 

[wizrad]

Let's think about this beyond our little community for a moment.

What are women "supposed" to be? Ask anyone here, and they'll say something along the lines of "whatever the hell they want to be". Ask the media, however, and you'll get a very different response. What are women portrayed as being interested in in, I don't know, any TV show? Looks, boys, emotions, and... uh, that's about it, actually. Of course, you'll have characters who like to read a lot (she's the nerd), characters who are violent (because she's hiding her inner pain ): ), characters who are badass (but she just wants to be "normal"!), and so on, but their extra character traits are there to differentiate them from the other characters. They still have all the same basic traits, just with something added on. Looks, boys, emotions, and x.

My point is that women not coming to tournaments isn't a problem with our community, it's a problem with our society. Girls aren't "supposed" to like video games and they're definitely not "supposed" to like violent video games. I don't know if I said this in my last post, but anything we can do to encourage female gamers to come to tourneys is just treating the symptoms as they affect us, not the greater disease plaguing our society.

And don't even get me started on the stigma against "gamer girls"...

 

[CrazyPerson]

Without reading more than the OP, and basing this only on opinion and not numbers.

Typically, I agree with separating events into men and women because in many cases the differences in body chemistry and structure would give one an advantage over the other, but when separated the same game can look very different, and different skills emphasized by each group... and the game is better for it. Other games where there isn't a difference, it isn't needed... such as sailing where (last I heard) even in the Olympics men and women can stand on the same podium at the end, or even team together.

In Smash... I don't see any advantage built into body structure or chemistry... if there is something I am missing please let me know... but because we are on an even playing field I don't see any reason to separate us into men's and women's champions. (us being the genders... I won't ever win a tournament and that is fine). Don't see any reason why teams of 2 men, 2 women, or 1 man 1 woman, can't compete against each other in doubles tournaments. From the competitive balance stand point it doesn't seem needed.

I would be interested to see why there is that disparity... is it the simple fact that testosterone makes more of us males interested in violent stuff such as this game? Probably safe to say men's football, boxing, and MMA will always have a deeper talent pool than women's because of these reasons. Is smash in the same category?

Is it the leftover aspect of the "Blue = Boys, Pink = Girls" culture (which is changing now)... where the NES was sold as a toy instead of an electronic and thus had to choose if it is sold in the section with boys toys or girls? Gaming has in large part catered to that existing market sense then... but that is changing. Is it simply that more males grew up enjoying gaming and carry the hobby into adulthood?

Is it the awkwardness of walking into a place that is filled with the other gender, and the stereotype that gamers will be awkward around them? Is it the sexist culture of some games that has a bunch of degrading phrases tossed around? (This is not directed at tournaments specifically... this is probably more true online with some anonymity... but any negative experience reinforces a fear of a group outside of one's own tragically)

I don't think men have a hard wired advantage to be better at smash... so from purely a competitive balance I don't think we need a men's and woman's champion, and I think that would be a negative thing for the community. Once the game starts we are all smashers... and I don't want to create a champion that may be perceived as different from another.

I would like to ask any female smashers why they think it is currently this way... or if separating an even playing field is the right way to go about "fixing" it. I put that in quotes because without knowing reasons, it is unknown whether this is a problem that needs fixing, or the result of individual people making choices that lead to a disparity.

 

[aεrgiα]

Without reading more than the OP, and basing this only on opinion and not numbers.

Typically, I agree with separating events into men and women because in many cases the differences in body chemistry and structure would give one an advantage over the other, but when separated the same game can look very different, and different skills emphasized by each group... and the game is better for it. Other games where there isn't a difference, it isn't needed... such as sailing where (last I heard) even in the Olympics men and women can stand on the same podium at the end, or even team together.

In Smash... I don't see any advantage built into body structure or chemistry... if there is something I am missing please let me know... but because we are on an even playing field I don't see any reason to separate us into men's and women's champions. (us being the genders... I won't ever win a tournament and that is fine). Don't see any reason why teams of 2 men, 2 women, or 1 man 1 woman, can't compete against each other in doubles tournaments. From the competitive balance stand point it doesn't seem needed.

I would be interested to see why there is that disparity... is it the simple fact that testosterone makes more of us males interested in violent stuff such as this game? Probably safe to say men's football, boxing, and MMA will always have a deeper talent pool than women's because of these reasons. Is smash in the same category?

Is it the leftover aspect of the "Blue = Boys, Pink = Girls" culture (which is changing now)... where the NES was sold as a toy instead of an electronic and thus had to choose if it is sold in the section with boys toys or girls? Gaming has in large part catered to that existing market sense then... but that is changing. Is it simply that more males grew up enjoying gaming and carry the hobby into adulthood?

Is it the awkwardness of walking into a place that is filled with the other gender, and the stereotype that gamers will be awkward around them? Is it the sexist culture of some games that has a bunch of degrading phrases tossed around? (This is not directed at tournaments specifically... this is probably more true online with some anonymity... but any negative experience reinforces a fear of a group outside of one's own tragically)

I don't think men have a hard wired advantage to be better at smash... so from purely a competitive balance I don't think we need a men's and woman's champion, and I think that would be a negative thing for the community. Once the game starts we are all smashers... and I don't want to create a champion that may be perceived as different from another.

I would like to ask any female smashers why they think it is currently this way... or if separating an even playing field is the right way to go about "fixing" it. I put that in quotes because without knowing reasons, it is unknown whether this is a problem that needs fixing, or the result of individual people making choices that lead to a disparity.

leaving the reasons for why there are fewer women aside since we dont know exactly why it is(and its probably the biggest discussion topic in this thread besides the original point), i want to point out that your misunderstanding the op, what the op was addressing was basically your

Is it the awkwardness of walking into a place that is filled with the other gender, and the stereotype that gamers will be awkward around them? Is it the sexist culture of some games that has a bunch of degrading phrases tossed around? (This is not directed at tournaments specifically... this is probably more true online with some anonymity... but any negative experience reinforces a fear of a group outside of one's own tragically)

what he suggested was NOT to run a tournament for males only and a tournament for females only, but rather to run a main tournament(open for all genders) and run a separate tournament only for women, the purpose of which isnt necessarily to be the most competitive and separate genders because of that, but rather to offer a platform for woman to "get a foot in the door" to the competitive smash scene without having "the awkwardness of walking into a place that is filled with the opposite gender" with the final goal being integrating those female players into the open for all tournaments.