Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Mr. Escalator]

Point 1 is a bit flawed. Solitaire's outcome is determined by meaningful decisions by the players to a large extent, but it's obviously non-competitive. The definition needs reworked to factor in that competitive games necessarily are multiplayer games in which there are winners and losers.

Did your forget to take single player games into account where they compete for High Scores and Speedruns?

Otherwise, solid post, AA.

 

[Mr.E]

Point 1 is a bit flawed. Solitaire's outcome is determined by meaningful decisions by the players to a large extent, but it's obviously non-competitive. The definition needs reworked to factor in that competitive games necessarily are multiplayer games in which there are winners and losers.

Many single-player games are played competitively. e.g. High scores, speed runs. The competitive game does not necessarily have to be multiplayer, so long as there is some comparative basis by which outsiders can judge the "better" performance.

 

[|RK|]

Good God, when will people stop flooding the pages with useless 11-word posts? What in the world does "Wow, Ampharos" contribute? All it does is move the thread faster and make it hard to find the actual posts that mean something when we want to use them as reference.

Can you just, like, remove your fingers from your keyboards while actual people argue? I hate having to go back 4 pages just to find something that people are presently discussing.

Nice post. You only proved that you have NO idea what a word is, nor that I am one of the clearer and actual debaters here. You really should read through the topic, since you obviously have not done that. Oh, and I am an actual person. What else would I be? Leave me alone and stop whining.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Haha, I did think of that, but you are making a subtle mistake. Those are effectively multiplayer games since multiple people are playing (just not at the same time). However, they aren't necessarily. If I play a game of Solitaire and never tell anyone else about it, it's not competitive in any way. If I share my time on a Solitaire speedrun website, then effectively I'm playing Solitaire with a group of people, and whoever has the best time is the winner (as ridiculous as Solitaire speedrunning is, it could happen). We already accept non-simultaneous play for competition (correspondence chess being quite a notable example), but we simply model it as multiple people playing. We do have to distinguish though because if a single player game is actually played as a single player game (by oneself, never shared with anyone else in a way that attempts to win anything), it isn't competitive no matter how much meaningful decision making it has.

This is also the least important point of the whole thing so it's probably not worth continuing with.

 

[Kewkky]

Nice post. You only proved that you have NO idea what a word is, nor that I am one of the clearer and actual debaters here. You really should read through the topic, since you obviously have not done that. Oh, and I am an actual person. What else would I be? Leave me alone and stop whining.

Nice going, picking and pointing grammar errors. Does me saying "Not word, my bad. LETTERS! 11-letter posts!" make you feel any better?

And I am still unhappy with this, hence why I stopped posting a long time ago. I'm tired at going back every few pages just to read what people say, so I can then go forward and make sure no one said what I am about to say, so i can then say it. I'm sure I'm not the only lurker that thinks the same way.

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ ur not the only one kewk. But theres nothing preventing ppl from actually posting random, ignorant posts with 11 letters. What can u do? this is the internetz.

 

[|RK|]

Nice going, picking and pointing grammar errors. Does me saying "Not word, my bad. LETTERS! 11-letter posts!" make you feel any better?

And I am still unhappy with this, hence why I stopped posting a long time ago. I'm tired at going back every few pages just to read what people say, so I can then go forward and make sure no one said what I am about to say, so i can then say it. I'm sure I'm not the only lurker that thinks the same way.

Better

Oh, and you don't seem much like a lurker. You've posted quite a bit in here.

EDIT: How is it ignorant? I thought so.

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ ur post wasnt ignorant but it had 11 letters . But there are some in this thread that are completely ignorant AND have 11 or less letters which dont contribute to the subject being discussed at all.

 

[thrillagorilla]

On second thought, if Ampharos' post is non-refutable, then there is no point in me working on my argument. Sorry Nic64, but I'll have to get back to you later, if at all.

@Amazing Ampharos: Thank you for your post. Its nice to see posts that took actual effort to create in this thread. Did you send the post to Eyada? I saw he was offline and don't want him to miss it. Again, thank you. This is the kind of discussion I've been hoping for since this thread began.

 

[Eyada]

On second thought, if Ampharos' post is non-refutable, then there is no point in me working on my argument. Sorry Nic64, but I'll have to get back to you later, if at all.

@Amazing Ampharos: Thank you for your post. Its nice to see posts that took actual effort to create in this thread. Did you send the post to Eyada? I saw he was offline and don't want him to miss it. Again, thank you. This is the kind of discussion I've been hoping for since this thread began.

I have read it, and I am putting together my response.

@Ampharos: Thank you for the excellent points. I have issues with several of them, but I want to review my responses carefully to make sure I don't do any disservice to your arguments.

I will post my response when it's completed.

 

[Inui]

I decided to look at the character diversity in Brawl in a different way (actually, I was just trying to prove someone on Gamefaqs wrong and ended up coming up with something too smart to only post there).

The following characters have placed top 8 in a tournament with 90+ entrees since the start of 2009. 90 entrees is my cutoff for a major tournament, and I decided at that number BEFORE looking at the list (so it wasn't picked to specifically maximize what I'd see). The highest place is indicated in parenthesis. If their placement on the list is only due to a split, it will be indicated with an asterisk.

Lucario (1), Snake (1), Meta Knight (1), King Dedede (1), Diddy Kong (1), Mr. Game & Watch (1), Zero Suit Samus (1), Wario (2/1*), Pikachu (2), Falco (2), Luigi (2), R.O.B. (3), Lucas (4/3*), Sonic (4), Donkey Kong (4), Samus (4), Marth (5/1*), Pit (5/4*), Toon Link (5), Ness (5), Kirby (7), Ice Climbers (1)*, Peach (3)*, Zelda & Sheik (3)*, Pokemon Trainer (3)*, Wolf (5)*, Fox (7)*

That is, 7 different characters have won major tournaments by themselves, 21 different characters have placed top 8 at major tournaments by themselves, 10 characters have won major tournaments if you allow secondaries alongside them, and 27 characters have placed top 8 at major tournaments if you allow secondaries alongside them.

The tournament "Road to Viridian City" would have perhaps added more diversity (I didn't look at it after I was done), but it barely missed the 90 mark (it had 89 entrees). NO KOAST was similarly excluded (with 87 entrees). We could also point out that this only includes tournaments in Ankoku's stats so it's possible that major Japanese tournaments would have expanded this even more.

If Meta Knight is killing character diversity in Brawl, I am not seeing it.

Super win. :D

 

[MaNg0]

i dont see how you can ban a character


espically since the game has only been

out a year

UNLESS YOU ARE SAYING

BRAWL HAS REACHED ITS PEEK?

IN ONLY A YEAR?




*****

 

[|RK|]

Thank you Mango.. Now I will bring back a topic I made.

 

[Overswarm]

i dont see how you can ban a character


espically since the game has only been

out a year

UNLESS YOU ARE SAYING

BRAWL HAS REACHED ITS PEEK?

IN ONLY A YEAR?




*****

Your assignment for today is to compare and contrast the tier list after one year of Melee to the final tier list we created and note the differences.

 

[ShadowLink84]

i dont see how you can ban a character


espically since the game has only been

out a year

UNLESS YOU ARE SAYING

BRAWL HAS REACHED ITS PEEK?

IN ONLY A YEAR?




*****

So you believe Brawl is going to be like melee and show incredible change?
Doubt it.

Akuma was banned 9 months into the U.S. scene by the way.

 

[MaNg0]

well since i didnt play the first year of melee

IM PRETTY SURE ITS DRASTICALLLLY DIFFRENT

I mean .. its only bee a year

i remmember when people were like snakes omg hes so good

then i look back and there like snake sucks lol

But come on ur gonna ban metaknight just cause

ur getting *****?


Man up Brawl community

U NO WHAT WE DO IN THE MELEE COMMUNITY

WHEN WERE LOSING 2 ONE CHARACTER

WE watch matches

study the character

learn the matchup

anad keep doing that **** till

we got it on lock down

****

 

[Kewkky]

So you believe Brawl is going to be like melee and show incredible change?
Doubt it.

Akuma was banned 9 months into the U.S. scene by the way.

And Akuma was added in Street Fighter, not Brawl.

Drop the Akuma topic already, people. It's old, stale, and won't get refreshed, no matter how many tornados you mash. And even if you do justify his banning, what does the Smash community care? We're talking about MK, not Akuma. His banning was obvious and desired over half of the SF population, not 50% and a half...

 

[|RK|]

Check out my reborn "Melee =/= Brawl" topic, everyone.

 

[Luur3]

well since i didnt play the first year of melee

IM PRETTY SURE ITS DRASTICALLLLY DIFFRENT

I mean .. its only bee a year

i remmember when people were like snakes omg hes so good

then i look back and there like snake sucks lol

But come on ur gonna ban metaknight just cause

ur getting *****?


Man up Brawl community

U NO WHAT WE DO IN THE MELEE COMMUNITY

WHEN WERE LOSING 2 ONE CHARACTER

WE watch matches

study the character

learn the matchup

anad keep doing that **** till

we got it on lock down

****

Hulk Smash

 

[Suspect]

U NO WHAT WE DO IN THE MELEE COMMUNITY

WHEN WERE LOSING 2 ONE CHARACTER

WE watch matches

study the character

learn the matchup

anad keep doing that **** till

we got it on lock down

****

NO WHAT PEOPLE DO IN THE BRAWL COMMUNITY

WHEN WERE LOSING TO ONE CHARACTER?

we pick metaknight

 

[Kewkky]

NO WHAT PEOPLE DO IN THE BRAWL COMMUNITY

WHEN WERE LOSING TO ONE CHARACTER?

we pick metaknight

we whine and pick metaknight

then we make topics

about how broken he is

and waste everyone's time

rather than learn the matchup

and get it on lock down

****



... Which I wholeheartedly agree with, by the way.

 

[Overswarm]

I mean .. its only bee a year

i remmember when people were like snakes omg hes so good

then i look back and there like snake sucks lol

But come on ur gonna ban metaknight just cause

ur getting *****?

Would you like to explain to us how everyone DID focus on Snake and Snake was dethroned within a matter of weeks.... but MK is now more plentiful than Snake ever was and we've been trying to find out how to beat him for over half a year now and the problem has gotten worse?

 

[sMexy-Blu]

LOLOLOLOLOL

SO TRUE

You lose to a D3? Just pick MK and whorenado spam.

 

[|RK|]

I don't play as Meta-Knight seriously. Since my brother and I think Meta-Knight or Kirby are awesome respectively, I second Kirby, and he plays (but sucks with) Meta-Knight. So he mains Marth.

 

[ShadowLink84]

And Akuma was added in Street Fighter, not Brawl.

IRRELEVANT!
That has NOTHING to do with a ban.
You know who was banned for being in a game?
link,Heihachi Spawn.
Exclusive

Gold version of Guilty gear characters.
EX versions.

stuff

Obviously you do not understand. The point of Akuma is to act as a control. To show the reasons concerning a ban.

well since i didnt play the first year of melee

IM PRETTY SURE ITS DRASTICALLLLY DIFFRENT

DO you really have to feign stupidity?
THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT HS GONE BY IS IRRELEVANT.
What matters is the growth of the the metagame.
Do explain as to how Brawl's metagame, a game lacking the many things in melee, a game that dealt with Snake VERY quickly, is somehow goign to change drastically over the next year?

Melee was completely different in that it changed very quickly over time because of the wealth of things available.

Do explain as to how you see the brawl tier list changing DRASTICALLY like melee did.
Or how Brawl is such a deep and complex game that it has the potential to show great change?

I mean .. its only bee a year

Time is irrelevat.
Again akuma banned within 9 months.
It was even less than a year.

i remmember when people were like snakes omg hes so good

then i look back and there like snake sucks lol

Really? Snake fell to low tier ?
Let alone that Snake had an even higher dominance than MK did in the first few months of Brawl.
Community focused on Snake, and we knocked him down and took him apart.

Community has focused on MK for over a year and well, not much change if at all.

But come on ur gonna ban metaknight just cause

I am anti-ban by the way,

ur getting *****?

Oh and do explain this wondrous logic.
you're losing thats why you want a ban.

iirc Ninjalink beats m2ks metaknight and he wants a ban. There goes your argument.

Man up Brawl community

Completely constructive way of provig the other side wrong.
MAN UP PEEPZ.YOU'RE WRONG CAUSE YOU ARE NOT GOOD.
FORGET ANY OTHER JUSTIFICATION!

Cmon I know you have better reasoning than this.

U NO WHAT WE DO IN THE MELEE COMMUNITY

]
We have no clue considering we have the forums within the same board and had that whole fair of melee vs brawl.
=)

WHEN WERE LOSING 2 ONE CHARACTER

Sheik for those who do not know.

WE watch matches

Assumptions...

study the character

make an ***

learn the matchup

of you

anad keep doing that **** till

we got it on lock down

****

and me.

if you cannot logically explain the reasoning as to why MK should not be banned other than "'you people are whiners." Do refrain from posting. It does not help the community any if you do not wish to share your knowledge ina manner that would aid people.

OH and as for not working hard?

May/June 2008
S: Snake, Meta Knight, King Dedede

June/July 2008
S: Snake, Meta Knight

July/August 2008
S: Meta Knight, Snake

Snake got knocked down.
Don't look down on the brawl community like that, its rude.

 

[MaNg0]

lol thats true when every loses a match they go mk


and well i dont play brawl .... but when i do

and i play a mk i dont c ne thing wrong with him

HE IS Beatable ... yeah hes good ...

just do stuff..

and ****

 

[Kewkky]

Obviously you do not understand. The point of Akuma is to act as a control. To show the reasons concerning a ban.

... Whereas he was banned justly, and with better reasons than MK apparently has.
Edit: Kicking out a guy at a bar because he's belching and vomiting =/= kicking out a guy at a bar because he's belching.

Akuma was "belching and vomiting": He was halting the metagame, and winning with anyone besides Akuma was a rare sight to behold.

MK is just "belching": He might be on top, but from what I see, MK's falling aren't a rare sight. People kick them down all the time! the fact that everyone still feels they'll do better with him than anyone else is because he's overall the "best character in the game"... And that is no reason to ban a character.


And I see you're anti-ban. Why am I even dragging on this argument?

-=stops talking about the whole Akuma thing, which was my petition to begin with=-

 

[Bonehimer]

lol thats true when every loses a match they go mk


and well i dont play brawl .... but when i do

and i play a mk i dont c ne thing wrong with him

HE IS Beatable ... yeah hes good ...

just do stuff..

and ****

well ........i dont play melee ......but when i do

and i.......play........a...........fox....i c things wrong.........with........him.........

HE ISNT.........Beatable.........yeah he...........s...............broken.........

cant........do.......stuf............f............

and..........sodomy

 

[ShadowLink84]

... Whereas he was banned justly, and with better reasons than MK apparently has.

reasons that people want to ban MK is very similar.
in fact it is similar to why Akuma was banned in SF2 HD remix.

Yes Akuma was recently banned in HD remix. Sirlin agreed.

lol thats true when every loses a match they go mk

I stay Sonic or I go Marth.

and well i dont play brawl .... but when i do

and i play a mk i dont c ne thing wrong with him

HE IS Beatable ... yeah hes good ...

just do stuff

That doesn't help much.
Every character i any game is beatable.
What matters is the degree to which they are beatable.

By no means do I advocate a ban. I am anti ban myself.
It s understandable though when people see that the majority of top 8 use MK in a MUST basis.
Even though they are maining other characters.

and ****[/QUOTE]

well ........i dont play melee ......but when i do

and i.......play........a...........fox....i c things wrong.........with........him.........

HE ISNT.........Beatable.........yeah he...........s...............broken.........

cant........do.......stuf............f............

and..........sodomy

I laughed.

 

[MaNg0]

shadowlink - im just in here cause i want more post....

i can care less about brawl but we already laugh at

the brawl community and if u ban it just proves how u guys

are *****es ... and well laugh more =D

and the guy who posted like me

Son i dont use that many .....

AND Lol at fox being broken


pretty sure i win tourneys with puff / falco

Son
=D



edit - ur post are 2 serious for me
lol

 

[CRASHiC]

shadowlink - im just in here cause i want more post....

i can care less about brawl but we already laugh at

the brawl community and if u ban it just proves how u guys

are *****es ... and well laugh more =D

and the guy who posted like me

Son i dont use that many .....

AND Lol at fox being broken


pretty sure i win tourneys with puff / falco

Son
=D

gtfo out spaming troll
you don't play Brawl.
You have no place here.
You don't see me coming in to Melee forums.

Our community is one of the largest in competative gaming history, and is growing. Go take this elitest **** elsehwhere.

 

[Eddie G]

Wow people, stop being stupid. Mango has the right mentality.

And stop cherry-picking posts just for the sake of arguing Shadowlink, it's ridiculous.

 

[Suspect]

gtfo out spaming troll
you don't play Brawl.
You have no place here.
You don't see me coming in to Melee forums.

why so serious?

 

[Kinzer]

The internet is serious business.

Also I thought the point of debating was to personally nit-pick every fine detail against the opposing side and make all their points invalid so there is no doubt that one way is better than the other.

 

[CRASHiC]

why so serious?

I don't play Street Fighter, and I don't go to their site and go, Don't ban Akuma *******.

 

[MaNg0]

guy who yelled at me ....


u guys may have one of the biggest communitys BUT


lets be honest here .... lets say were at a brawl tourney


withhhh uhhhh 100 people...


OK


90 of the people are COmplete noobs and suck

then u got like 5-6 people who are notable

then the rest who are real good

=D

 

[Eddie G]

The internet is serious business.

Also I thought the point of debating was to personally nit-pick every fine detail against the opposing side and make all their points invalid so there is no doubt that one way is better than the other.

Yeah well the nitpicking has been going on for too long. Besides, Mango wasn't even seriously arguing here, and Shadowlink (like many of the people who visited this thread) felt the need to go Mr. Super-logic about it. Like I said, ridiculous.

 

[Bonehimer]

shadowlink - im just in here cause i want more post....

i can care less about brawl but we already laugh at

the brawl community and if u ban it just proves how u guys

are *****es ... and well laugh more =D

and the guy who posted like me

Son i dont use that many .....

AND Lol at fox being broken


pretty sure i win tourneys with puff / falco

Son
=D



edit - ur post are 2 serious for me
lol

u r rite

i sound stupid

talking about fox and melee

i guess

people

sound stupid when they

talk about

a

game they dont

play huh

.......................


.

 

[pure_awesome]

Mango... you very obviously don't know anything about Brawl or the Brawl community, and quite frankly you're embarassing what's left of the Melee community.

I don't know if you're high or drunk or just always this wierd, but seriously, find something better to do with your time. Saying that whenever you play Brawl, MK seems beatable, is exactly as important as every other scrub who comes in here and says MK seems beatable when he plays his random friends.

 

[MaNg0]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

thats why people agree with me?

go say that on a melee forum

and ur gonna get *****