Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[AlphaZealot]

What you are saying amounts to disregarding the highest level of play, when it is the highest level of play that represents the match ups the truest.

NL does not have the same reputation for winning the M2K does too, if anything, in terms of overall skill, M2K is at an advantage. Put on top of that that he is playing a supposedly ban-worthy character, and no matches he ever has should be close-let alone loses.

Azen in Melee did stints where he only went lower tiered characters. However, during these stints, he had some of his worst placements, and while he did better than players maining the characters for years, he still ended up proving that, no, some characters just can't win tournaments when up against upper echelon players using top tier/high tier characters.

 

[ShadowLink84]

By no means is that what I mean. What I am asking is if that flaw in the argument could skew things and cause an issue.
Mainly since NL said the last time that he was just better at the time when he beat m2k. Not because he was using Diddy.

By the way, how much of a difference did Azen place when he used lower tiered characters?
Just to satisfy my curiosity.

Remove the last part since it is untrue and I am not pro ban.
When did the pro ban side ever ignore NL's placements?
NL is NOT a Diddy player either, he has said s himself so I do not understand why you and many other people continuously bring it up.
it is extremely similar to the claim that Lucario goes even with Mk because Azen beat other MK's with his Lucario.

The pro ban side did claim that other diddy players needed to show they can do well against MK's and in this aspect, I tihnk what was said still stands. have there been any other Diddy players that have been placing well against high level MK's consistently?

 

[AlphaZealot]

History of Diddy versus MK

I claim Diddy could be a soft counter to MK in July-no one believes me
NL beats M2K/Omni/Forte in August
Pro-ban cries foul because of inexperience against Diddy
NL consistently beats top MKs in NY/DC region for next two months
Pro-ban ignores these victories because the only really notable player beaten was Forte
NL loses once to Inui in late September
Pro-ban claims this proves that Diddy does not counter MK
NL continues to win tournaments in NY over top MK players in that region
Pro-ban continues to ignore these tournaments
Podcast occurs
Pro-ban also claims that NL would not be able to beat M2K again
Pro-ban also claims other Diddy players need to do well
NL beats M2K again
Lethein takes 3rd in Texas (most MK dominated state)
Pro-ban now claims that the matches don't count because the players are to good?

---

Bomb 3 (Spring 2005) Azen placed either 5th or 7th because he went stricktly Samus/Link, when had he played top tier he would have won. ChuDat ended up winning, Darkrain 2nd, I think Chillin/Husband placed above Azen, and Wife may have as well too (forget).

 

[HeroMystic]

Talking about how gay YGO is was more fun than going back to Metaknight.

More Card game talk please.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Another good game was Poker.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Poker>Yugi-HO

 

[Turbo Ether]

History of Diddy versus MK

I claim Diddy could be a soft counter to MK in July-no one believes me
NL beats M2K/Omni/Forte in August
Pro-ban cries foul because of inexperience against Diddy
NL consistently beats top MKs in NY/DC region for next two months
Pro-ban ignores these victories because the only really notable player beaten was Forte
NL loses once to Inui in late September
Pro-ban claims this proves that Diddy does not counter MK
NL continues to win tournaments in NY over top MK players in that region
Pro-ban continues to ignore these tournaments
Podcast occurs
Pro-ban also claims that NL would not be able to beat M2K again
Pro-ban also claims other Diddy players need to do well
NL beats M2K again
Lethein takes 3rd in Texas (most MK dominated state)
Pro-ban now claims that the matches don't count because the players are to good?

---

Bomb 3 (Spring 2005) Azen placed either 5th or 7th because he went stricktly Samus/Link, when had he played top tier he would have won. ChuDat ended up winning, Darkrain 2nd, I think Chillin/Husband placed above Azen, and Wife may have as well too (forget).

Amazing post.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I claim Diddy could be a soft counter to MK in July-no one believes me

It is expected considering at the time there was no true results to support such an idea .

Pro-ban continues to ignore these tournaments

Ignore? Not true.
the pro ban side stated that if only one Diddy was capable of beating MK's consistently, it pointed to it being a result of one player kill not character capability.

The results were taken into account, but were not considered as undeniable proof of the claim.

Lethein takes 3rd in Texas (most MK dominated state)

1. NL has stated he does not main Diddy. That he uses a variety of characters. NL has als stated that he knows what t do in the matchup, not that the matchup was an advantage for Diddy (which you claimed).
2.How many other Diddy's have been beating out MK's to win a tournament? If its only been NL thats going around consistently beating people, then the same can be said of m2k beating users of other characters that have been proposed as counters.

Pro-ban now claims that the matches don't count because the players are to good?

Where did you get such an idea?

 

[Calixto]

I don't suppose NL could just be a great player. No. Can't be.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Where did you get such an idea?

Could it not be said that NL, Azen and m2k are people who are so god that they pretty much nullify the matchup ratios?

That perhaps?

 

[ShadowLink84]

You canno deny that he is winning with Diddy dude.

As AZ shwed, Azen is a great player but placed lesser with lower tiered characters.

That perhaps?

Question=declaration?

When did the definition change?
I can see where it was misinterpreted but considering my reply after it I can't see why he would constantly think such a thing.
Let alone since I am NOT pro ban which I have often stated in this topic.

 

[Turbo Ether]

You canno deny that he is winning with Diddy dude.

As AZ shwed, Azen is a great player but placed lesser with lower tiered characters.



Question=declaration?

When did the definition change?

Who cares about a definition? Were you implying that the players are too good for the results to count? Yes or no?

Edit: Nvm, caught your edit.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Who cares about a definition? Were you implying that the players are too good for the results to count? Yes or no?

Edit: Nvm, caught your edit.

If I ask a question why would a question be taken as a claim? Thats stupid and makes up an argument which has not been made.

 

[Turbo Ether]

If I ask a question why would a question be taken as a claim? Thats stupid and makes up an argument which has not been made.

The answer to that question is 'no', FFS.

 

[DraKmoN001]

NL has stated he does not main Diddy. That he uses a variety of characters. NL has als stated that he knows what t do in the matchup, not that the matchup was an advantage for Diddy (which you claimed).

The fact that NL knows what to do for the matchup... why is that affirmation not evidence that Diddy at least had good options against MK (which could compound to being an advantage)? NL is super good, but all the things he can do in the Diddy vs MK matchup are all bounded by what is programmed into the game (specifically for Diddy), so it is not as if NL can transmute an advantage out of thin air. Some of you are very quick to point out MK's frame advantages and that such advantages are inviolable because they are inherent to the game... so when NL uses options which are inviolable because they are inherent to the game, what is that worth?

 

[DanGR]

History of Diddy versus MK

Most of these pro-ban arguments fail. Are you serious?

 

[Rain(ame)]

Alright, I agree with Inui in the fact that the MK matchup isn't as horrid as it seems. Even Peach has a decent Matchup against MK. And what the heck are we talking about MK's Gimps for? I mean....let's be serious, here.

In Melee:
Did we ban Fox beacuse a simple Shine spike...at any percentage can finish you? Or Marth because all you really need is a Backthrow to Dair? Or what about the Ken Combo? Ken took a friggin' stock in less than 10 seconds!? On Isai of all people!!! What about IC's? We didn't ban them for wobbling...we did ban the technique, though. Even still, they had other techniques that were utterly gay beyond all compare. Peach's Dsmash...if someone was actually stupid enough to fully crouch cancel a charged Dsmash it did massive damage. Sooooo? That means you don't CC one. What about Sheik? She was considered unbeatable at one point. Honestly, Sheik is considered by many to be one of the most gay characters in the game. Let's not even get started on Falco.


In Brawl:
The game itself is rather ridiculous in some of the things that you are capable of doing. Now I'm honestly not trying to be mean, here, but the people that were complaining about Melee are also complaining about Brawl it seems. I don't play Brawl as much as some do, and I put those that do to SHAME. Sure I've gotten beat...and by some really gay tactics, but what did I do? I came back the next match and ***** their little technique. Tornado Spamming...gimp attempting...etc. MK? I faced it....I was overwhelmed the first match. Came back with my Peach...and guess what I did? I won. Now for someone as inexperienced as me in Brawl to overcome what people are complaining about, something's DEFINITELY wrong.

I don't want to sound harsh, but people need to get over this. I'm considered to be a low player in Melee. Even though people won't say it to my face, on a scale of 1-10 I'm probably considered a 3. (That's right, I've heard about how I've been trash-talk about behind my back.) Still in all, for me to figure this out when I'm considered to be such a "low-ranked" player and also have a mid-tier character, there's something wrong. the solutions I came up with? Well, anybody seen M2K's guide on beating MetaKnigh? I figured that crap out on my own....after ONE match. I think we should be serious here.


1.) MK is gay, but not bannable
2.) If you ban MK, then you need to Ban the top 5 characters in Melee as well. Each of them are just as gay, and equally beatable.

 

[DanGR]

2.) If you ban MK, then you need to Ban the top 5 characters in Melee as well. Each of them are just as gay, and equally beatable.

If there were five characters in brawl that were as good as MK, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Ussi]

^ He beat me to it

1.) MK is gay, but not bannable
2.) If you ban MK, then you need to Ban the top 5 characters in Melee as well. Each of them are just as gay, and equally beatable.

5 characters are more fun to see on top than only one

 

[Rain(ame)]

Edit: You take away MK, and you still have Snake, DDD, Falco, and G&W. Another 4 SUPER gay characters that people all complain about.

sorry, I misread that post

 

[ShadowLink84]

The fact that NL knows what to do for the matchup... why is that affirmation not evidence that Diddy at least had good options against MK (which could compound to being an advantage)? NL is super good, but all the things he can do in the Diddy vs MK matchup are all bounded by what is programmed into the game (specifically for Diddy), so it is not as if NL can transmute an advantage out of thin air. Some of you are very quick to point out MK's frame advantages and that such advantages are inviolable because they are inherent to the game... so when NL uses options which are inviolable because they are inherent to the game, what is that worth?

Except what must be understood is how well those abilities work out.
For example Sonic can Fsmash K out of his tornado, however what are the circumstances regarding such behavir?
Diddy does have options but under the current metagame, he doesn't appear to have anything that can really push him to being a soft counter. Let alone that it has been insinuated that Diddy performs best on stages similar to FD so it could be stage dependant. At which pint, the MK user can strike out the stages that Diddy does best on and lessens those options.

NL really does use Diddy extremely well, that is undeniable, however, it is being criticized primarily because only NinjaLink has really been showing that behavior with Diddy. So because he is one of the few it could indicate many things that are not capable f being factored into a discussion. i.e. mindgames.

The answer to that question is 'no', FFS.

Which is why you blew off what I said earlier when you said definition didn't matter.

 

[Natch]

FFS means For F***'s Sake

 

[ShadowLink84]

-_-;.
Lol, lulz, ffs.
Blargh so many.

 

[HeroMystic]

The internet has gotten so lazy these days.

ITT, IIRC, FFS, TL;DR...

What's next?

 

[BrawlLover]

i dont know itt, iirc

 

[DanGR]

Edit: You take away MK, and you still have Snake, DDD, Falco, and G&W. Another 4 SUPER gay characters that people all complain about.

that would be fine.

 

[1048576]

Alright, I agree with Inui in the fact that the MK matchup isn't as horrid as it seems. Even Peach has a decent Matchup against MK. And what the heck are we talking about MK's Gimps for? I mean....let's be serious, here.

In Melee:
Did we ban Fox beacuse a simple Shine spike...at any percentage can finish you? Or Marth because all you really need is a Backthrow to Dair? Or what about the Ken Combo? Ken took a friggin' stock in less than 10 seconds!? On Isai of all people!!! What about IC's? We didn't ban them for wobbling...we did ban the technique, though. Even still, they had other techniques that were utterly gay beyond all compare. Peach's Dsmash...if someone was actually stupid enough to fully crouch cancel a charged Dsmash it did massive damage. Sooooo? That means you don't CC one. What about Sheik? She was considered unbeatable at one point. Honestly, Sheik is considered by many to be one of the most gay characters in the game. Let's not even get started on Falco.


In Brawl:
The game itself is rather ridiculous in some of the things that you are capable of doing. Now I'm honestly not trying to be mean, here, but the people that were complaining about Melee are also complaining about Brawl it seems. I don't play Brawl as much as some do, and I put those that do to SHAME. Sure I've gotten beat...and by some really gay tactics, but what did I do? I came back the next match and ***** their little technique. Tornado Spamming...gimp attempting...etc. MK? I faced it....I was overwhelmed the first match. Came back with my Peach...and guess what I did? I won. Now for someone as inexperienced as me in Brawl to overcome what people are complaining about, something's DEFINITELY wrong.

I don't want to sound harsh, but people need to get over this. I'm considered to be a low player in Melee. Even though people won't say it to my face, on a scale of 1-10 I'm probably considered a 3. (That's right, I've heard about how I've been trash-talk about behind my back.) Still in all, for me to figure this out when I'm considered to be such a "low-ranked" player and also have a mid-tier character, there's something wrong. the solutions I came up with? Well, anybody seen M2K's guide on beating MetaKnigh? I figured that crap out on my own....after ONE match. I think we should be serious here.


1.) MK is gay, but not bannable
2.) If you ban MK, then you need to Ban the top 5 characters in Melee as well. Each of them are just as gay, and equally beatable.

So you beat a bad MK, big deal.

So Melee had 4 good chars, brawl has one. That's the problem, obviously.

Troll?

 

[BentoBox]

So first we take away the character boards credibility and now you argue that someone playing a character at its fullest potential isn't credible proof enough as the data on paper does not reflect such results. Tell me shadow, do you really believe that on paper analysis is the end all be all of matchup discussions? And are you really going to dismiss every aberrant piece of data?

Nobody claimed that Diddy was a soft counter, he goes neutral, meaning that the outcome of the matchup can go both ways.

@dangr: "fine" is subjective. Some people are "fine" with the way things are currently.

 

[AlphaZealot]

M2K claims Snake/MK is Snakes advantage
People cite results to disprove M2K's claim

I claim Diddy/MK to be Diddy's advantage and cite results
People cite what NL says to disprove the results

So, opinions get overridden by results, but only if those opinions are in the pro-ban favor?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

M2K claims Snake/MK is Snakes advantage
People cite results to disprove M2K's claim

I claim Diddy/MK to be Diddy's advantage and cite results
People cite what NL says to disprove the results

So, opinions get overridden by results, but only if those opinions are in the pro-ban favor?

M2K has made many matchup claims which are questionable.

I personally believe M2K is right in his claims, but one of these is the belief that melee Sheik was the best character in melee. I don't know enough about melee to make a judgement, but I am pretty sure the community overwhelmingly disagrees.

Also, there is the possibility that M2K has a Diddy problem in the same vein as Inui's Sonic issues.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Which is why you blew off what I said earlier when you said definition didn't matter.

The definition doesn't matter. The difference between 'question' and 'declaration' isn't relevant to the discussion at all, and is you sidetracking the topic for no reason. You asked how Alpha Zealot got the idea, I pointed out a possibility, based on what you said in a quote. That's all. I also answered the question for the hell of it.

 

[BrawlLover]

results are good evidence to prove things, so we should go by them

 

[bobson]

The problem with assuming the highest level of play dictates matchup advantages/disadvantages is that there are very few players at that level right now. If the highest level Captain Falcon player has no trouble against Metaknights but all of the others do, you can't tell if it's because Falcon has an advantage over Metaknight at the highest level or if it's just that player who knows how to beat Metaknights.

Aside from NL, are there any other Diddy Kongs doing notably well against Metaknights?

 

[AlphaZealot]

And yea, that is how I got the idea.

I just see pro-ban as grasping for straws, at least when it comes to Diddy. At first it was inexperience, then it was one loss to one MK despite having consistently won against MK's of both similar and higher skill. Then it was not enough Diddys. Now its that Diddy isn't winning tournaments even if he is beating MK, or that the Diddy who is winning claims the match up to not be in Diddy's favor (while similar claims, like M2K about Snake, are discredited because of evidence, this claim is accepted despite the evidence).

More evidence is mounting in favor of Diddy, something I've always claimed to happen, and I believe Diddy still has substantially further to improve as a character overall then the likes of MK.

Aside from NL, are there any other Diddy Kongs doing notably well against Metaknights?

Lethein
-1st out of 40 @ 10/11 Prince Bistro Tournament #1, Flower Mound, TX; $80
-2nd out of 32 @ 11/2 Funhouse SSBB/Soul Calibur 4 #3 Monthly, Tulsa, OK; $60
-3rd out of 112 @ 11/22 OH SNAP! v4.0, Norman, OK; $110

 

[The Halloween Captain]

M2K has made many matchup claims which are questionable.

I personally believe M2K is right in his claims, but one of these is the belief that melee Sheik was the best character in melee. I don't know enough about melee to make a judgement, but I am pretty sure the community overwhelmingly disagrees.

Also, there is the possibility that M2K has a Diddy problem in the same vein as Inui's Sonic issues.

Is this a true statement?

EDIT: I don't know if Diddy counters MK. I do not think he does, because more experienced Diddys than me say he does not.

I do not pretend to completely grasp MK v. Snake, but likewise, I agree with M2K. However, I also agree with the opinions of other expert Snake and Meta Knight players on this matchup.

 

[bobson]

Also, there is the possibility that M2K has a Diddy problem in the same vein as Inui's Sonic issues.

NL's consistently beaten other high-level MKs, so no, it's not just M2K. But it might just be NL.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So first we take away the character boards credibility and now you argue that someone playing a character at its fullest potential isn't credible proof enough as the data on paper does not reflect such results. Tell me shadow, do you really believe that on paper analysis is the end all be all of matchup discussions? And are you really going to dismiss every aberrant piece of data?

Are you going to act so stupid as to band wagon when I clearly did NOT state such a thing?
I really hate it when people just go off the accusations made by others.

I asked if it was possible for a player to be good enough so that they skew things and if it would be the result of player skill overcoming character capability, primarily due to the many different factors that cannot be taken into account on paper.
Such as mindgames.

I already clarified on what I had meant earlier on the last page and this page as well.
Don't act stupid.

Nobody claimed that Diddy was a soft counter, he goes neutral, meaning that the outcome of the matchup can go both ways.

Az said made the assertion of Diddy being a soft counter.
He stated it on the last page and I quote him saying it on this page.


@AZ: I mean besides Ninja Link and Lethein? I thought there were a few more pro Diddy users.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

NL's consistently beaten other high-level MKs, so no, it's not just M2K. But it might just be NL.

Nothing against either, but the vids I saw of M2K in the matchup had a lot of banana mistakes by M2K.

 

[Rain(ame)]

No, I'm not a troll, far from it. Please refrain from making ridiculous comments like that. Trolls are people that insult. I was just backing up the people that don't want to see MK banned.

All I'm saying is that I don't see a difference at all. What were people saying about DDD and Snake early on? About how unbeatable they were? Game and Watch? Ike? Seriously, I think you're just quick to dismiss other people. Like you just said, "So you played a bad MK." Noooooo, I didn't. I've played BAD MK's before that were absolutely horrid. I'm talking about an MK that does what I see other MK's that people complain about doing. Seriously, people are so quick to dismiss others instead of LISTENING to what people are saying. I've seen what MK has done to people, personally. Then I've gone right around and beat that same MK. Right now, people are complaining about how broken MK is. There are other equally broken characters in Brawl. Take it from somebody that can't stand using MK, let alone facing him. It's not that bad. I find it harder to beat a DDD than I do MK.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I think its 55-45 in favor of Diddy or at worst even.