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Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
ewwwwww...
i dont want cake anymore
i dont want cake anymore
Monshou_no_Nazo
Smash Journeyman
This is exactly why I didn't vote, because I knew MK wasn't going to be banned regardless of anything.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Since the SBR totally has direct power over TO's.
Not too many TOs are going to check out some several-hundred posts filled with repeated arguments and flaming and spam to see what they should do.
Either way, we won't accomplish much.
Might as well try.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
TO's are not stupid. They will do what they feel benefits them the most.
towelie892
Smash Cadet
Overswarm promised cake with MK crossed out. I refuse to consume this cake until my complaint has been addressed.Cake?:
THE CAKE IS A LIE.
No TO is going to sit back and go "the SBR said so so I guess I have to follow them." It's happened for the tier list, it's happened for the rules set, and it will likely happen regarding the MK ban.
Yeah, but its probably what they would have done near the beginning of the debate, and this won't really change the minds of a majority of TOs.
I know, I'm just saying they'll go with something like their gut instinct instead.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203535 There you go. This is the reason people say you don't know what your talking about, you just band wagon posts from the people who do.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
this is a lie.
my TO does exactly this.
all he does is bandwagon on SBR decisions
lololololol
He stopped posting, let's not bring him back <3
@ankok, SBR rules are considered as a standard by most. In the end, I don't foresee a majority of tournaments banning MK regardless of the SBR's decision. Now who is penalized exactly? The TOs or the players?
@ankok, SBR rules are considered as a standard by most. In the end, I don't foresee a majority of tournaments banning MK regardless of the SBR's decision. Now who is penalized exactly? The TOs or the players?
LinkStrifeLeonhart
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2008
- Messages
- 54
So the last couple of pages got me thinking about the entire point to the character specific boards here. The match up topics aren't reliable sources of information on character match ups, so that's off of it. It seems that to get good info you need to ask a pro, so that either means in a topic a pro already made or with a PM or at a tourney.
I guess it's only useful for finding out new character specific things, which brings ATs to mind. And honestly, that could probably be done in a single overall topic.
But I want to know why there seems to be such a disconnect between pros and the character boards. Wouldn't the pros want the character boards more reflective of the meta-game as the pros understand it? This might be more prevalent with the high tier character boards and all, but it honestly just seems pointless to me now. If a character board doesn't have a residing pro or two, then it's really just a general chat centered around a character.
Then again, this also gets into my current question of what competitive Brawl is and if it really encompasses those that go to tournaments to "prove what a character is worth."
/tangent
I guess it's only useful for finding out new character specific things, which brings ATs to mind. And honestly, that could probably be done in a single overall topic.
But I want to know why there seems to be such a disconnect between pros and the character boards. Wouldn't the pros want the character boards more reflective of the meta-game as the pros understand it? This might be more prevalent with the high tier character boards and all, but it honestly just seems pointless to me now. If a character board doesn't have a residing pro or two, then it's really just a general chat centered around a character.
Then again, this also gets into my current question of what competitive Brawl is and if it really encompasses those that go to tournaments to "prove what a character is worth."
/tangent
Tristan_win
Not dead.
That cake looks cheap.Cake?:
THE CAKE IS A LIE.
mariofanpm12
Smash Ace
Seems the same as last time.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
the metaknight looks like its made out of lotion.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
This should probably be addressed by the pro-ban people. Nobody has argued with this at all or proven anything wrong and I basically just proved that Snake beats MK and Olimar, Falco, Diddy, and Game and Watch go almost even with him. Furthermore, I strongly feel that ZSS and Wario go even with him and that Dedede, Marth, Toon Link, Pit, DK, R.O.B., Lucario, and Kirby do not lose any worse than 40/60. I'm also starting to think that Yoshi and Sonic go 40/60 with MK despite the tier gap.
•Col•
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,450
That's not lotion.........................................
NeoCrono
Smash Ace
Oh dear god.... what have I eaten!!!!
HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 6,473
- Location
- San Antonio, Texas
- NNID
- HeroineYaoki
- 3DS FC
- 2191-8960-7738
Sunscreen?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i dont understand why inui is still trying to prove crap after umbreon came in and ***** the thread and took away its will to live.
its over dude, you may commence face rubbing
but just for the lulz:
Falco
you say that ppl are only human and therefore they have to do things that are imperfect, to that my responce is that if you assume that the person has to make a mistake every once in a while, than you must also assume that a human will also do some thing not feasible by human standards on occasion. you cant assume perfection, but you cant assume mistakes either. that being said. :
that means that every once in a while an MK will get an actual gimp off on falco, whether it be by ledgehopping a n-air into the f-b, down smashing the landing, or just guessing when the falco will go for the edge, and getting to it before him.
this has more of a chance of happening than MK spacing falco so as not to get grabbed the entire match so its a decent trade off
you forget to mention that MK can hit falco out of his f-b so i can run away and camp more strat with tornado. so any well timed tornado can put falco in a bad spot...
GaW
as much as I play sonic, i know more than just about anybody the power and sometimes the need to hit other people before their attacks. and GaW is somewhat susceptible to this, seeing as his smashes, while fast do have a noticible (not long just noticible) startup time to his kill moves, it shouldnt be unbearable difficult to focus on hitting GaW before said powerful moves come out.
about the f-smash at 65. is that with full up airing DI? cus that sounds suspiciously low.
other than that, all you are really saying is MK can camp with shuttle loop and play safe and win the match since other than what ive already mentioned, they are even in all other aspects. recovery, range, safeness, priority and camping.
Diddy
if MK is down air camping and diddy is trying to up air him, wouldnt it be easy to just AD into the ground and punish the up tilt with what ever?
also diddys only competing move in the air is forward, but that can be hard to hit because even though his horisontal air speed is crap, the verticle is top notch and that can make it hard to hit an MK that is sticking to the air.
not to mention that it seems that once MK gets inside, with a mixture of down airs, multi jumps, airdodging, and glide attacking, it seems that MK tends to have all the advantage in the world, because he can pressure and outspace him, and spot dodge to down smash the vast majority of his attacks.
about down airs.
its very easy to repeat rising down airs on peoples shields, its much harder to up tilt him out of it, and i dont see people doing it consistently, i would say that MK comes out of that exchange without taking damage more often than diddy will.
Olimar
Cant MK space a tornado high enough to go over the grab and still hit oli? even if he cant do it in a straight line, MK can still curve the nado over the grab.
camping down airs still seems like a good idea in this match up because if you see oli preping for a counterattack, you can just AD through all 3 of the moves that he would be using in that situation and punish him for it.
i would just like to point out your "cant assume perfection theory again" using that, i surmise that oli cant keep track of all his pikmin throughout the entire game. this can lead to purple pikmin grabs, which dont have the necessary range, and blue pikmin up smashes at 80 when you thought it was purple, which than stales the up smash so it wont kill at the right percent either. not saying this will always happen, but you cant say it will never happen either...
and it seems like oli will be pivot grabbing alot and with MKs agressive nature it shouldnt be hard to pull a couple feignts to get oli to pivot grab himself to the ledge, and from there, all it would take is one low trajectory attack (d-smash) to put oli in a gimpable position at med damage.
but like i said this debate is over. i just decided to try and refute you for the lulz
its over dude, you may commence face rubbing
but just for the lulz:
Falco
you say that ppl are only human and therefore they have to do things that are imperfect, to that my responce is that if you assume that the person has to make a mistake every once in a while, than you must also assume that a human will also do some thing not feasible by human standards on occasion. you cant assume perfection, but you cant assume mistakes either. that being said. :
that means that every once in a while an MK will get an actual gimp off on falco, whether it be by ledgehopping a n-air into the f-b, down smashing the landing, or just guessing when the falco will go for the edge, and getting to it before him.
this has more of a chance of happening than MK spacing falco so as not to get grabbed the entire match so its a decent trade off
you forget to mention that MK can hit falco out of his f-b so i can run away and camp more strat with tornado. so any well timed tornado can put falco in a bad spot...
GaW
as much as I play sonic, i know more than just about anybody the power and sometimes the need to hit other people before their attacks. and GaW is somewhat susceptible to this, seeing as his smashes, while fast do have a noticible (not long just noticible) startup time to his kill moves, it shouldnt be unbearable difficult to focus on hitting GaW before said powerful moves come out.
about the f-smash at 65. is that with full up airing DI? cus that sounds suspiciously low.
other than that, all you are really saying is MK can camp with shuttle loop and play safe and win the match since other than what ive already mentioned, they are even in all other aspects. recovery, range, safeness, priority and camping.
Diddy
if MK is down air camping and diddy is trying to up air him, wouldnt it be easy to just AD into the ground and punish the up tilt with what ever?
also diddys only competing move in the air is forward, but that can be hard to hit because even though his horisontal air speed is crap, the verticle is top notch and that can make it hard to hit an MK that is sticking to the air.
not to mention that it seems that once MK gets inside, with a mixture of down airs, multi jumps, airdodging, and glide attacking, it seems that MK tends to have all the advantage in the world, because he can pressure and outspace him, and spot dodge to down smash the vast majority of his attacks.
about down airs.
its very easy to repeat rising down airs on peoples shields, its much harder to up tilt him out of it, and i dont see people doing it consistently, i would say that MK comes out of that exchange without taking damage more often than diddy will.
Olimar
Cant MK space a tornado high enough to go over the grab and still hit oli? even if he cant do it in a straight line, MK can still curve the nado over the grab.
camping down airs still seems like a good idea in this match up because if you see oli preping for a counterattack, you can just AD through all 3 of the moves that he would be using in that situation and punish him for it.
i would just like to point out your "cant assume perfection theory again" using that, i surmise that oli cant keep track of all his pikmin throughout the entire game. this can lead to purple pikmin grabs, which dont have the necessary range, and blue pikmin up smashes at 80 when you thought it was purple, which than stales the up smash so it wont kill at the right percent either. not saying this will always happen, but you cant say it will never happen either...
and it seems like oli will be pivot grabbing alot and with MKs agressive nature it shouldnt be hard to pull a couple feignts to get oli to pivot grab himself to the ledge, and from there, all it would take is one low trajectory attack (d-smash) to put oli in a gimpable position at med damage.
but like i said this debate is over. i just decided to try and refute you for the lulz
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Awesome. I actually post lots of evidence and good arguments finally and it doesn't matter. See why didn't do so earlier? It wouldn't have matter for some other reason, probably.
bobson
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2008
- Messages
- 1,674
It's easier to just ignore it and watch it get buried under the thread and forgotten.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Thought so. It's not too beneficial for the pro-ban side to have their arguments crushed under the weight of fact and skill.
Cake?:
THE CAKE IS A LIE.
Catching up on the argument through 46 or so pages since I last checked.
These posts made it soooooooooooooooooooo worth it.
Other stuff too, like Atomsk feeling similar to me in that I don't want my win/lost to be credited to MK--
Ankoku text sex.
MK's dtilt not having a disjoint.
And MK not getting banned
All good stuff but these posts right here are where awesome is born. I love you guys.
( :
Deoxys
Smash Lord
Why is it a lie? Because his mask is colored wrong?Cake?:
THE CAKE IS A LIE.
VICTORY!!! WAHAHA!!
gantrain05
Smash Master
ok Inui here goes my opinion on your MK matchups
1. Snake, i agree snake does well against meta, and on paper everything seems all fine and dandy, but in a real match, its not an advantage to snake, its more like 50-50, you say that snake can punish MK when he messes up, and yes he can, but it still isn't easy to do, and you failed to mention how meta can punish snake when he messes up, which is EXTREMELY easy for any good MK to do, if any characters messes up against MK they can and will punish, they just have the speed to do it. grenade camping will only go so far, MK has never had many problems with projectiles, he's too small and too fast to really be hindered by them, but i do think snake has the best projectiles for the job. and even a smart recovering snake has to face the facts, if MK is patient and just spaces him in the air he can just bait out the airdodge and punish with shuttle loop, and with snake usually recovering high he's probably dead, and if he recovers low, then thats even worse, he's going to either get stage spiked, or knocked away and the same thing will repeat until he's either dead or MK messes up and he gets back to the stage.
2. falco, now heres where i strongly disagree, while falco has lasers thats all good and nice, but they won't last very long as MK will be right in falcos face at the start of the match, pretty much every one of MK's arials and ground moves will outprioritize anything falco has besides lasers and DownB. and while he does have a deadly chaingrab its not easy for a character like falco to really get a grab off on MK, short grab ranged and he has some cooldown after a grab that can actually allow MK to dashgrab him in return, and falco can actually be very easily gimped, if he gets falco offstage with a Dair, he can actually Dair falco to the bottom corner of the stage until he has no chance of coming back and MK will just shuttle loop back on stage, and no they actually can't get out of this safely, the only way would be to let out an attack and if they do they just gimped themselves. it basically goes like this, MK knocks falco off stage with any one of his various moves, and while falco is offstage MK does Dair > jump > Dair > jump > Dair > jump Dair> go back to stage, and falco is too far to recover.
3.G&W basically, game and watch has the turtle......if he's short hopping at you...he's going to turtle, the simple way to make sure he does do this is to just shuttle loop when you see G&W jump at you with his Bair, it will beat turtle every single time and gives G&W very limited approach, he has some rediculous KO moves, but you can't really set any of them up unless you Dthrow and successfully tech chase them, but thats all based off luck and MK can actually immediatley tech roll to the side right after the Dthrow and have enough time to put a shield up or counter attack b4 G&W can be on him, and G&W is a very light character and a fresh Dsmash will kill him at very reasonable percents, same with shuttle loop. against a very good MK i just don't see G&W really having much of an answer.
4.Diddy Kong, on final D diddy can beat MK, so that doesn't really help when anybody who plays against a diddy bans final D anyway, any stage with platforms or obstacles will mess up diddys banana game (yoshi's island is a good example) and we all know w/out banana's diddy is not that great.
5.Olimar, now this one you have got to be kidding me right? pikmin spam does NOTHING to MK, if he sees you throwing a pikmin at him, he's just going to Nair or any move really its not even going to give the pikmin time to actually attack him, olimar is just wasting his pikmin doing that, all olimar really has in this matchup is his pivot grabs, which if used well can actually be very effective against MK, but he's eventually going to catch on and just dash at olimar and probably just Dodge behind him or even Dsmash him, his grab won't catch MK if he Dsmashes, he has no grab armor. all of his smashes get beaten out in priority by any of MK's moves, any olimar main will tell you that if you just clank moves with him he will always get beat, except for maybe Uair.
and i don't really have much experience with the others you've mentioned either, except that i know DK's tilts can be a bit of a problem for MK, marth gets gimped too easily, and DDD just alright, he can live forever and has that rediculous chaingrab.
1. Snake, i agree snake does well against meta, and on paper everything seems all fine and dandy, but in a real match, its not an advantage to snake, its more like 50-50, you say that snake can punish MK when he messes up, and yes he can, but it still isn't easy to do, and you failed to mention how meta can punish snake when he messes up, which is EXTREMELY easy for any good MK to do, if any characters messes up against MK they can and will punish, they just have the speed to do it. grenade camping will only go so far, MK has never had many problems with projectiles, he's too small and too fast to really be hindered by them, but i do think snake has the best projectiles for the job. and even a smart recovering snake has to face the facts, if MK is patient and just spaces him in the air he can just bait out the airdodge and punish with shuttle loop, and with snake usually recovering high he's probably dead, and if he recovers low, then thats even worse, he's going to either get stage spiked, or knocked away and the same thing will repeat until he's either dead or MK messes up and he gets back to the stage.
2. falco, now heres where i strongly disagree, while falco has lasers thats all good and nice, but they won't last very long as MK will be right in falcos face at the start of the match, pretty much every one of MK's arials and ground moves will outprioritize anything falco has besides lasers and DownB. and while he does have a deadly chaingrab its not easy for a character like falco to really get a grab off on MK, short grab ranged and he has some cooldown after a grab that can actually allow MK to dashgrab him in return, and falco can actually be very easily gimped, if he gets falco offstage with a Dair, he can actually Dair falco to the bottom corner of the stage until he has no chance of coming back and MK will just shuttle loop back on stage, and no they actually can't get out of this safely, the only way would be to let out an attack and if they do they just gimped themselves. it basically goes like this, MK knocks falco off stage with any one of his various moves, and while falco is offstage MK does Dair > jump > Dair > jump > Dair > jump Dair> go back to stage, and falco is too far to recover.
3.G&W basically, game and watch has the turtle......if he's short hopping at you...he's going to turtle, the simple way to make sure he does do this is to just shuttle loop when you see G&W jump at you with his Bair, it will beat turtle every single time and gives G&W very limited approach, he has some rediculous KO moves, but you can't really set any of them up unless you Dthrow and successfully tech chase them, but thats all based off luck and MK can actually immediatley tech roll to the side right after the Dthrow and have enough time to put a shield up or counter attack b4 G&W can be on him, and G&W is a very light character and a fresh Dsmash will kill him at very reasonable percents, same with shuttle loop. against a very good MK i just don't see G&W really having much of an answer.
4.Diddy Kong, on final D diddy can beat MK, so that doesn't really help when anybody who plays against a diddy bans final D anyway, any stage with platforms or obstacles will mess up diddys banana game (yoshi's island is a good example) and we all know w/out banana's diddy is not that great.
5.Olimar, now this one you have got to be kidding me right? pikmin spam does NOTHING to MK, if he sees you throwing a pikmin at him, he's just going to Nair or any move really its not even going to give the pikmin time to actually attack him, olimar is just wasting his pikmin doing that, all olimar really has in this matchup is his pivot grabs, which if used well can actually be very effective against MK, but he's eventually going to catch on and just dash at olimar and probably just Dodge behind him or even Dsmash him, his grab won't catch MK if he Dsmashes, he has no grab armor. all of his smashes get beaten out in priority by any of MK's moves, any olimar main will tell you that if you just clank moves with him he will always get beat, except for maybe Uair.
and i don't really have much experience with the others you've mentioned either, except that i know DK's tilts can be a bit of a problem for MK, marth gets gimped too easily, and DDD just alright, he can live forever and has that rediculous chaingrab.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
you can go back a page, I editted to throw some match up stuff out there as well
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i just read trains post and i thought of some thing hott
MK/Falco
mk knocks falco off stage
MK glides out to falco
falco airdodges the impending g air
MK b cancels the glide into a rising down air
MK gets off another rising down air
MK uses his last jump and up b to get back to the stage while falco falls helplessly to his death
...
...
sex
MK/Falco
mk knocks falco off stage
MK glides out to falco
falco airdodges the impending g air
MK b cancels the glide into a rising down air
MK gets off another rising down air
MK uses his last jump and up b to get back to the stage while falco falls helplessly to his death
...
...
sex
gantrain05
Smash Master
i suppose that could work too, i've never seen anyone do it quite that fancy pants but yeah...it seems viable i might test it out lol.
Dr. Grandpa
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2008
- Messages
- 516
BAN BAN do it do it. Honestly, it's not a realistic goal to accomplish. Tough luck guys.
gantrain05
Smash Master
how is it not a realistic goal? it seems to me it could go either way, but what do you know, you just come into threads like this and spam.
Master Raven
Smash Master
Or Falco can simply avoid this by using Illusion.
Almost everything on paper is easier said than done (including my above statement).
GGMoneY
Smash Cadet
All I have to say on this topic is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djtl9Kv64c8&feature=related
That is all.
That is all.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Or Falco can simply avoid this by using Illusion.
Almost everything on paper is easier said than done (including my above statement).
The dair chain actually puts Falco immediately too low to use Illusion which is what makes it so bad for him in the first place. It's one of the main ways I've seen Meta Knight's handling Fox and Falco because of the great angling of the attack. The next Dairs are then unaviodable because the space furries will have to try and UpB and the charge will not allow them to do so before being hit again. I watched M2K do this alot at HOBO11 as well to any Fox or Falco as it seems to be the quickest and most effecient way to kill him.
Speaking of Dair, Ive found Olimar is incredibly suceptible to it even through his Usmash so long as you approach with a diagonal angle. This keeps Meta's hurtbox away fromthe pikmin but his sword in Olimar. From there it seems to be no problem to carry Olimar off the stage with followups.
Lol no. Platforms HELP Diddy's game. A little Melee import called 'z-grabbing items'
The matchup is the same, regardless of stage. I'd actually prefer to take MK to Battlefield over FD. Most Diddy's play on the assumption that FD is going to be banned against them.
Also:
Master Raven
Smash Master
I wasn't actually suggesting to illusion after getting Daired, but if Falco was knocked off-stage but not low enough to be forced to recovery with his fire bird. Of course it's really mostly just good guess work but like I said, a lot of things on paper are easier said than done.
Ulevo
Smash Master
Let's also not forget that with proper DI, a Falco isn't suddenly going to conveniently appear below the stage, let alone in the position for a properly placed Dair. Gimping a good Falco player is actually quite difficult.Or Falco can simply avoid this by using Illusion.
Almost everything on paper is easier said than done (including my above statement).
frdagaa
Smash Journeyman
I like how this thread has pretty much the same margin as the other one. Apparently people aren't really changing their minds.
100% Agree'd. Any well played character is hard to gimp (except Falcon, Link + Ganon). All the time you hear about Ness being gimpable but that's not really true...same goes ´for spacies and party for Ike as well
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