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Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
50/50 on RBC and brinstar? On RBC MK ***** snake hardcore. You can ledgecamp on the ship then gimp him afterwards. Not even. Brinstar is more even, but Id put it in metas favor also.
And MK beats or goes even with snake on BF, SV, or Yoshis.
So hes a counter but a very soft counter at that because of CPs.
repost from page 18:
"@ the Pro-ban side: Can I get a clear, well written/thought out list of reasons you think MK should be banned. From reading/participating in all these theads, I can gather that the reasons you put forth are:
He's the best character*
He breaks the stage counterpick system, which is a feature unique to smash (which is why many comparisons to other games fail)
There are too many people using him
He's stagnating the meta-game
*Not that he's unbeatable, but that he has the most good matchups, least (if any) neutral or disadvantages.
Before I respond to these points, I want to make sure I'm not oversimplifying or misconstruing any of the points, or outright missing them. Also, I'd prefer that more than one pro-ban person anwsers this, because I want to make sure you are all on the same page. Also, more notable/respected smashers would be cool, as to be honest, I'm elistist (I'm NA, go figure), and I strongly believe that the better players do know more about the game that other people, even if their knowledge isn't complete, it's at least more complete most of the time.
Sorry for not following the the tradition on the thread, but I *think* I've showed in previous iterations of this subject that I'm trying to be rational about this subject."
"@ the Pro-ban side: Can I get a clear, well written/thought out list of reasons you think MK should be banned. From reading/participating in all these theads, I can gather that the reasons you put forth are:
He's the best character*
He breaks the stage counterpick system, which is a feature unique to smash (which is why many comparisons to other games fail)
There are too many people using him
He's stagnating the meta-game
*Not that he's unbeatable, but that he has the most good matchups, least (if any) neutral or disadvantages.
Before I respond to these points, I want to make sure I'm not oversimplifying or misconstruing any of the points, or outright missing them. Also, I'd prefer that more than one pro-ban person anwsers this, because I want to make sure you are all on the same page. Also, more notable/respected smashers would be cool, as to be honest, I'm elistist (I'm NA, go figure), and I strongly believe that the better players do know more about the game that other people, even if their knowledge isn't complete, it's at least more complete most of the time.
Sorry for not following the the tradition on the thread, but I *think* I've showed in previous iterations of this subject that I'm trying to be rational about this subject."
Ulevo
Smash Master
No it doesn't. Good Meta Knight players lose all the time. Get over it please.
BlueTerrorist
Smash Ace
This topic makes me wanna punch kittens....HARD!!! Please people, know what you are doing please . You would be doing me and everyone else a favor. I don't have a yes or no yet, but this is getting way out of hand.
. You would be doing me and everyone else a favor. I don't have a yes or no yet, but this is getting way out of hand.
Nic64
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,725
50/50 on RBC was ridiculous but I don't think he was far off elsewhere, I think snake has a slight edge on brinstar and goes even on the others mentioned.
in general I would agree that MK's matchups alone aren't that horrible, a number of characters go near even with him...I think the problem that he presents is simply that he has no clear counter, there is no reason to main someone else when you have counters and can be stage counter picked while MK can not except for snake, and even that is close enough that being slightly better than your opponent is enough. I posted earlier in the thread that I thought the question with MK is whether or not he invalidates the idea of playing anyone else as your main to win, and to some extent he does. voted yes but it's very borderline and I get flip floppy about it, in some respect I'm not sure if I really care one way or the other.
Philosophize
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2006
- Messages
- 148
DONT BAN METAKNIGHT!
Do you really want to make this heavy of a decision this early in the game's career? We don't know enough about how to be GOOD at brawl yet. We can't ban a character FOREVER at this point, it's just really too early to do something like that. The fact that every video I've seen of top Metaknight players contains them being seriously damaged during the course of the fight and even losing multiple stocks and even LOSING period shows that he may be good but he isn't broken(i.e. OS's MK lost to Anther's Pika?). Give ourselves more time to learn how to play against this character. Just give it more time, that's all I'm saying.
Do you really want to make this heavy of a decision this early in the game's career? We don't know enough about how to be GOOD at brawl yet. We can't ban a character FOREVER at this point, it's just really too early to do something like that. The fact that every video I've seen of top Metaknight players contains them being seriously damaged during the course of the fight and even losing multiple stocks and even LOSING period shows that he may be good but he isn't broken(i.e. OS's MK lost to Anther's Pika?). Give ourselves more time to learn how to play against this character. Just give it more time, that's all I'm saying.
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
accidentally voted yes lol...
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
does this voting poll have any say in anything? or is it just to see what the brawl community thinks about this entire fad? mk for life, brawl forever!
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
oh, then i don't see how it's one sided, it seems it's a 50/50 ya know?
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 3,417
Noone is saying to ban him because he's the best. That would result in an infinite recursive loop until the game is dead. The problem is that he's the best BY FAR.
He breaks not just the stage counterpick system, but the counterpick system in general, characters and stages. There's just no way to get an advantage, or even go even with MK in a best 2/3.
The next two points are kind of meshed together, and yes, he's stagnating the metagame and causing people to quit. You hit the nail on the head with that one.
The last point is good, too.
And I have my own personal pro-ban argument which you can refute if you want. There's no harm in banning him and then bringing him back if the game becomes better with him in it. The former MK mains will have lost skill, but their opponents will have lost skill playing against MK as well, so his meta will regrow on an even playing field. He's causing players, like myself, to drop out of the tourney scene, and we need a thriving tourney scene.
Sigrid Fiinikkusu
Smash Apprentice
Lol I agree 1048576 about the tourny scene. Luckily there are no good Metaknight players where I'm at.
Sephiroth27
Smash Ace
He's not a counter of any kind.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
another question i have
lets say some weird tech is discovered that MK gimp snake way easier that he used to, and some how the match ended up being 60-40 MK on every stage no matter what (hypothetical).
how many more ppl would be willing to ban him?
lets say some weird tech is discovered that MK gimp snake way easier that he used to, and some how the match ended up being 60-40 MK on every stage no matter what (hypothetical).
how many more ppl would be willing to ban him?
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
I would...
DraKmoN001
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 88
If beating MK with anyone was as hard as beating DeDeDe with DK (and infinites were allowed), then would that be grounds for a ban?
Dokutayuu
Smash Apprentice
It's not like he's immortal, people (and that includes me) just need to outsmart MK players. The fact that his u-tilt out prioritizes Toon Link's dair still scares me though.
I admit he's probably better than the rest of the cast but banning him is only avoiding the problem. Eventually MK may become predictable or we find some sort of weakness.
Who knows, maybe one day someone will find that Captain Falcon has some sort of broken technique which allows him to beat MK?
I admit he's probably better than the rest of the cast but banning him is only avoiding the problem. Eventually MK may become predictable or we find some sort of weakness.
Who knows, maybe one day someone will find that Captain Falcon has some sort of broken technique which allows him to beat MK?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
2 issues with this quote
1. the only reason MKs are losing right now is because they are being predictable...
2. nobody is going to play CF because they are all playing MK because they got sick of getting whooped by him
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
just because a character has distinct advantages over another, he should be banned? i mean cmon!
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
This is my biggest problem with MK to date... to many people are picking him up... and for good reason too...
M15t3R E
Smash Master
The MK virus. It is real. It has infected a good portion of the Brawl community already and is still spreading.
Not "another" -- "every other"
CO18
Smash Hero
He does not have distinct advantages over everyone
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Right, except in MK ditto matches... then its neutral
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
well i dont believe mk can't be beaten by other chars, what about ganondorf like 3 hits is all you need!
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
im pretty sure he is.
he said before that he thinks ganon is at least a full tier above yoshi
he said before that he thinks ganon is at least a full tier above yoshi
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
ganon is good, he can kill early! you guys obviously don't understand how deep brawl is
brinboy789
Smash Champion
he doesnt not have a distint advantage over anyone except for chars that get ***** by the entire top tier. just to make that clear. aside from chars that get ***** by all top tier chars, MK goes round 10-13 : 20 ratio with the rest of the cast
edit: besides for snake
editedit: and maybe olimar
Wobby
Smash Apprentice
Um Big G pwns all. LOL, ok maybe not that much, but I will say any given game Ganon can beat MK, I myself have beaten the top rank players in my state that use MK a couple times, not consistently, but about 40% or maybe 45%
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
ROFLMAO!
No, I believe you are the one that is seeing the game in to shallow of a light... So what if it only takes Ganon "three hits" if he cant land his attacks?!
M15t3R E
Smash Master
Ganon can't take on a good MK...
Ganon is a defensive punisher when used correctly. Good MK's are absurdly difficult to punish even by fast characters.
Ganon is a defensive punisher when used correctly. Good MK's are absurdly difficult to punish even by fast characters.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
now i KNOW you are trolling...
i wasnt sure if you were just stupid for a while but this post clinched it
Who said it had to be a distinct matchup advantage?
There are other ways to be advantaged in Brawl.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
that just means the ganon player isn't good, and shut up da kid, say something useful for once!
rehab
Smash Journeyman
I don't suppose anybody's seen BrawlLover's signature lately?
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