Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[Justblaze647]

i don't think that "pissing off MK mains" is a reason to not ban him.

2nded

10agrees

 

[Ulevo]

i don't think that "pissing off MK mains" is a reason to not ban him.

Well, it is in contrast to the pro ban argument that Meta Knight is making players quit. If players are quiting due to Meta Knight, and that's a problem, wouldn't Meta Knight mains quitting because he's banned also be a problem?

You can't argue at your own convenience.

 

[Sephiroth27]

Metaknight is like the Fantastik of a Smash Brothers game.

 

[gantrain05]

Well, it is in contrast to the pro ban argument that Meta Knight is making players quit. If players are quiting due to Meta Knight, and that's a problem, wouldn't Meta Knight mains quitting because he's banned also be a problem?

You can't argue at your own convenience.

i really don't think it would, MK mains will find a new main, they aren't going to quit the game, ppl are quitting BECAUSE of MK being so dominant in tournies people are fed up with it.

and wtf man, "you can't argue at your own convenience" that doesn't really make sense, seeing as to make an argument it would have to be convenient for me to make one, otherwise whats the point?

 

[HeroMystic]

I never said that. I said if you ban Metaknight just for the sake of "making the game easier" (Losing MK -would- make the game more competitive... but only because right now we're just giving up against him), then that's pretty worthless.

Metaknight is broken, but he doesn't break the game. If he just outright destroyed every single character to the point it's a 2-3 stock everytime you play a skilled Metaknight (which I've yet to see besides Dojo's, but that was when MK really just began to evolve drastically and no one was prepared for it), then I'd be pro-ban once again. But that's not the case and probably won't be.

 

[Ulevo]

i really don't think it would, MK mains will find a new main, they aren't going to quit the game, ppl are quitting BECAUSE of MK being so dominant in tournies people are fed up with it.

and wtf man, "you can't argue at your own convenience" that doesn't really make sense, seeing as to make an argument it would have to be convenient for me to make one, otherwise whats the point?

No, that is not how arguments work. You make a claim when the argument is convenient for you, yes, but you don't twist it to your whims while ignoring the contrast. You can't ignore the opposing point, story, argument... Simply because you feel like it. That's just being either rude or oblivious.

What you just did was automatically assume that if Meta Knight is banned, there will be no players that will quit Brawl because of that reason. Do you know how silly that sounds? Many people play Meta Knight. For him to simply disappear for what some players believe to be an improper or unfair reason would be more than enough to warrant leaving the game. I am not saying there won't be players who will move on. Dojo said himself that if Meta Knight is to get hit by the ban stick, he'll move on to Diddy Kong. That's just one example. But there are many others who wouldn't tolerate it. You have to consider those people as well when making this sort of decision. You can't just say, "Oh, well we have to ban Meta Knight because it's making people quit. Don't worry about the Meta Knight mains, they'll just find someone else"

 

[Justblaze647]

I never said that. I said if you ban Metaknight just for the sake of "making the game easier" (Losing MK -would- make the game more competitive... but only because right now we're just giving up against him), then that's pretty worthless.

It's not just that we're giving up... it's that MK severly limits the options that you have in the game. So far, I think the only match-ups that allow even a slight chance of overcoming MK are Snake (and I'm still skeptical about this one...), Diddy on neutrals (Banana spama), or MK (go figure).

 

[gantrain05]

No, that is not how arguments work. You make a claim when the argument is convenient for you, yes, but you don't twist it to your whims while ignoring the contrast. You can't ignore the opposing point, story, argument... Simply because you feel like it. That's just being either rude or oblivious.

What you just did was automatically assume that if Meta Knight is banned, there will be no players that will quit Brawl because of that reason. Do you know how silly that sounds? Many people play Meta Knight. For him to simply disappear for what some players believe to be an improper or unfair reason would be more than enough to warrant leaving the game. I am not saying there won't be players who will move on. Dojo said himself that if Meta Knight is to get hit by the ban stick, he'll move on to Diddy Kong. That's just one example. But there are many others who wouldn't tolerate it. You have to consider those people as well when making this sort of decision. You can't just say, "Oh, well we have to ban Meta Knight because it's making people quit. Don't worry about the Meta Knight mains, they'll just find someone else"

i do consider those people, but i will bet you if he doesn't get the ban even more people are going to quit the game because of it or else they will resort to playing MK, and nobody likes all MK tournies.

 

[Nic64]

I think the only match-ups that allow even a slight chance of overcoming MK are Snake..., Diddy..., or MK (go figure).

ridiculous hyperbole ftl

 

[Justblaze647]

For him to simply disappear for what some players believe to be an improper or unfair reason would be more than enough to warrant leaving the game.

Have you seen the poll? I think you mean to say "most players."

 

[Nic64]

40.61% is most?

also this is only indicative of smashboards

 

[Ulevo]

It's not just that we're giving up... it's that MK severly limits the options that you have in the game. So far, I think the only match-ups that allow even a slight chance of overcoming MK are Snake (and I'm still skeptical about this one...), Diddy on neutrals (Banana spama), or MK (go figure).

I'm going to ask you a legit question, which I do not intend to offend. Have you ever been to a tournament before with more than 40 contestants, and entered yourself? Also, have you ever placed well?

I ask this because many players making the claims you just made yourself are doing nothing but repeating what they've heard on the board by others users (like yourself), or are using theorycraft and paper analysis strictly.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Where is the evidence that enough people are quitting because of MK for it to be a problem?

Ankoku has like 200+ tournaments from the last 2 months. That is a TON of tournaments. Not to mention just this past weekend there was a 100+ person tournament in Oklahoma (of all places) and 90 person tournament in Virginia. These types of numbers are unprecedented for this time of year.

I also wonder if some of the people who appear to be leaving (I think the people who leave are being replaced) may be leaving for other factors. The economy does suck right now, and tournaments aren't really inexpensive (usually 30-40$ + travel costs).

 

[Ulevo]

i do consider those people, but i will bet you if he doesn't get the ban even more people are going to quit the game because of it or else they will resort to playing MK, and nobody likes all MK tournies.

But you have nothing to prove that theory, and neither do I. We don't ban a character by mere theory. Meta Knight is very dominant, yes, his ranks show this. It doesn't give a proper conclusion to the future however. This is a wait-and-see matter, and we need to wait that out, because no good comes of making hasty choices.

 

[gantrain05]

well i can't speak for blaze, but i've entered many tournies around here with 30+ entrants and being in iowa thats quite a good turnout. and in those 30+ entrants there are usually anywhere between 4-12 MK users that are for the most part, at least decent with the char. and for those of us who don't play MK because we actually like diversity in a competitive game, its just rediculous odds to overcome, and you know who usually walks away with prize money? all the MK's Snake/MK's and the really good DDD's.....

 

[Ulevo]

Where is the evidence that enough people are quitting because of MK for it to be a problem?

Ankoku has like 200+ tournaments from the last 2 months. That is a TON of tournaments. Not to mention just this past weekend there was a 100+ person tournament in Oklahoma (of all places) and 90 person tournament in Virginia. These types of numbers are unprecedented for this time of year.

I also wonder if some of the people who appear to be leaving (I think the people who leave are being replaced) may be leaving for other factors. The economy does suck right now, and tournaments aren't really inexpensive (usually 30-40$ + travel costs).

This is also another very good point I failed to mention.

Exactly what proof is there that a drastic amount of players (or substantial enough to consider) are quitting Brawl? And even if there were proof of players quitting, how can you also prove that Meta Knight is a contributing factor to that? Again, this is another myth spread about the boards in order to intimidate players on the decision of keeping Meta Knight in the game. I am by no means saying Meta Knight has not caused players to leave, I'm sure he has. But unless you can prove by how significant of a margin, we can't even use that argument to make a decision.

 

[Nic64]

and for those of us who don't play MK because we actually like diversity in a competitive game, its just rediculous odds to overcome, and you know who usually walks away with prize money? all the MK's Snake/MK's and the really good DDD's.....

I love how that went from "MK is unfair!" to "**** those snakes and DDD's too ban MK plz"

 

[Justblaze647]

haha, I've been to one tourney, it had abot 30+ entrants, and I placed 2nd. What does any of that have to do with me posting my opinion in an online forum..?

 

[Ulevo]

well i can't speak for blaze, but i've entered many tournies around here with 30+ entrants and being in iowa thats quite a good turnout. and in those 30+ entrants there are usually anywhere between 4-12 MK users that are for the most part, at least decent with the char. and for those of us who don't play MK because we actually like diversity in a competitive game, its just rediculous odds to overcome, and you know who usually walks away with prize money? all the MK's Snake/MK's and the really good DDD's.....

That was no different from Melee, was it? Fox, Marth, Falco always won tournaments on a wide scale consistently. Sure, in Melee, the occasional Jigglypuff or Ice Climbers, Peach or Captain Falcon would emerge victorious. But can we say that doesn't happen in Brawl? I've seen plenty of circumstances where Ice Climbers, Lucario, Wario, Marth, Peach... have all won tournaments, and against the odds of other Top Tier characters, including Meta Knight.

That aside, the higher you climb in skill, the easier it is to deal with Meta Knight. And this is not because you become the better player, it is because you become a better player. Just continue to improve. I have, and I no longer have problems with Meta Knight, even against the best in my country. If I lose, it's never badly, and I know it is due to difference in player skill and game comprehension.

Peach? I couldn't fight her worth my life.

 

[Blad01]

It's not just that we're giving up... it's that MK severly limits the options that you have in the game. So far, I think the only match-ups that allow even a slight chance of overcoming MK are Snake (and I'm still skeptical about this one...), Diddy on neutrals (Banana spama), or MK (go figure).

AND FALCO.

I would be really curious to see what the SBR thinks about the Falco vs MK match-up. It was considered 60-40 in Falco advantage before SK92 vs Plank and Sethlon vs Stiltz (i think this was that). It's now generally considered as even.

 

[Ulevo]

haha, I've been to one tourney, it had abot 30+ entrants, and I placed 2nd. What does any of that have to do with me posting my opinion in an online forum..?

It has to do with the amount of experience you have fighting and witnessing truly great Meta Knights. Let's not forget that this web site is not a board for casual players; it is meant for those who compete. You can argue all day that Meta Knight needs to be banned because your friend whips your *** in casuals at hang outs and sleep overs. It won't mean anything. The point is that there are players out there, competing and beating other Meta Knight players equal to their level of play. There are top players who place consistently well and go to tournaments on a regular basis, who knows this game like the back of their hand, clearly stating their informed opinion on why Meta Knight is not worthy of a ban.

I am not discrediting your word if it is backed by proper reason. I am just pointing out that without extensive experience in the matter, you're not likely to understand the topic as well as those above you. The more experience you have, or tournaments you attend, the more likely you are to change your mind on the matter.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of less experienced users on these boards who complain, or give similar reasonings uninformed reasons as to why Meta Knight should go, and it leaves a bad impression to anyone else who is not properly informed them self. Eventually, they form a similar mind set.

It also doesn't help that more "respected" members here like Overswarm or LeeHarris post the way they do.

 

[gantrain05]

i totally understand what your saying ulevo, but i think that MK is getting a little out of hand, in melee, there was always shiek, marth, fox, falco, and then tehre were those ic's peach, falcons, jiggs etc, but people could play who they wanted in that game because of how deep it was, but in brawl the MK thing is just out of hand, i don't think it matters how much experience you have, the best mario in the world still doesn't have a chance against MK, at least in melee pretty much everyone did.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'd say at best I'm a mid-level player. I usually do lose to Metaknights but I occasionally do win. Thing is, whenever I lose, it's by one stock, with both MK and myself at a point where one smash attack could deliver the win. That's not game breaking at all, and I main freaken Mario.

I may sound anti-ban right now, but I'm still neutral. We need to wait and see how long this lasts. If MK's dominance goes beyond what it should be (over 50% would seem rational. That would be the point where everyone is playing dittos), then there would be a problem. But I have a feeling this will just be a phase that'll eventually die out.

EDIT: Lol, ironic you brought up Mario as soon as I posted. Have you ever seen vids of Boss? He makes the match-up look even.

 

[∫unk]

This is also another very good point I failed to mention.

Exactly what proof is there that a drastic amount of players (or substantial enough to consider) are quitting Brawl? And even if there were proof of players quitting, how can you also prove that Meta Knight is a contributing factor to that? Again, this is another myth spread about the boards in order to intimidate players on the decision of keeping Meta Knight in the game. I am by no means saying Meta Knight has not caused players to leave, I'm sure he has. But unless you can prove by how significant of a margin, we can't even use that argument to make a decision.

Players that were going to quit in my region decided not to because either the metagame is going to learn to deal with MK or he's going to get banned. They needed to know MK's absolute dominance and grip on the meta will not continue for the rest of Brawl's existence. These kinds of threads brought them back.

 

[gantrain05]

oh and heromystic, sorry to use mario as an example lol, but im just saying the mid/low tiers in brawl have much less of a chance of beating a good MK than the mid/low tiers in melee had of beating shiek or marth.

 

[Ulevo]

i totally understand what your saying ulevo, but i think that MK is getting a little out of hand, in melee, there was always shiek, marth, fox, falco, and then tehre were those ic's peach, falcons, jiggs etc, but people could play who they wanted in that game because of how deep it was, but in brawl the MK thing is just out of hand, i don't think it matters how much experience you have, the best mario in the world still doesn't have a chance against MK, at least in melee pretty much everyone did.

I believe it was... Boss? who beat another Meta Knight main with Luigi. He mains Mario. Both are within the same Tier, so I suppose the idea still holds. In either case, from what I recall, this Meta Knight was someone reputable.

The characters that I see compete in tournaments and win against Meta Knight during each tournament I attend are as follows:

King Dedede
Snake [Insert Ally **** here]
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario
Wario
Zelda
Sheik
Yoshi
Peach
Marth
Falco
Pikachu
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong

These are the regulars that I personally witness myself, and they're all fairly decent players. Most of these are from tournaments and friendlies with regular attendances of 60+ players. They are all also mostly able to compete with players such as KingAce, Ambrose, JL, MDK-- the better Meta Knights from GTA.

 

[gantrain05]

who's pkm trainer, zelda and shiek were beating good metas? i don't think i've ever seen that done b4 lol. and plus, if MK isn't familiar with the matchup it can change alot, im sure there are alot of people who arent familiar with the luigi matchup, myself included, there just aren't alot of people repping the guy.

 

[Justblaze647]

It has to do with the amount of experience you have fighting and witnessing truly great Meta Knights. Let's not forget that this web site is not a board for casual players; it is meant for those who compete.

You're not telleng me anything I don't already know here. I am not a "casual player."

You can argue all day that Meta Knight needs to be banned because your friend whips your *** in casuals at hang outs and sleep overs. It won't mean anything. The point is that there are players out there, competing and beating other Meta Knight players equal to their level of play.

You must be speaking figuratively, cuz those words have never left my mouth.

There are top players who place consistently well and go to tournaments on a regular basis, who knows this game like the back of their hand, clearly stating their informed opinion on why Meta Knight is not worthy of a ban..

Yes, but there are also top players who place consistently well and go to tournaments on a regular basis, who knows this game like the back of their hand, clearly stating their informed opinion on why Meta Knight is worthy of a ban, so...

Unfortunately, there are plenty of less experienced users on these boards who complain, or give similar reasonings uninformed reasons as to why Meta Knight should go, and it leaves a bad impression to anyone else who is not properly informed them self. Eventually, they form a similar mind set..

Sorry, but I took the initiative to inform myself, and I formed my own opinion on the matter. I am not following anyone else's example

It also doesn't help that more "respected" members here like Overswarm or LeeHarris post the way they do.

Well, maybe that's why they're in SBR and you're not.

 

[da K.I.D.]

It has to do with the amount of experience you have fighting and witnessing truly great Meta Knights. Let's not forget that this web site is not a board for casual players; it is meant for those who compete.

i dont think this is necessarily true. i think this site is just for people who really like the game and think its fun, regardless of their skill level or how many tourneys that they go to.

any colored name people wanna possible clear up this misconception (cus obviously, one of us is wrong here...)

p.s. i was in these threads when OS was making really detailed and informed posts.
and if i had gotten blown off the way some of his statements did, i might resort to just trolling people and sarcasm too...

 

[The Real Inferno]

I recall one of the mods telling a tale of how these boards were started by casual players and not competitive ones.

Also: Canada Smash is trash. /Xyro

 

[Ulevo]

who's pkm trainer, zelda and shiek were beating good metas? i don't think i've ever seen that done b4 lol. and plus, if MK isn't familiar with the matchup it can change alot, im sure there are alot of people who arent familiar with the luigi matchup, myself included, there just aren't alot of people repping the guy.

PK Trainer would be Percon, who also uses Kirby and I believe King Dedede. Used to main Snake. He's either 2nd or 3rd on GTA's PR. WolfBlade who mains Lucario, also uses Pikachu and PK Trainer and is also on the PR, although I cannot recall the rank. Seventh or Eighth? Both are good players. GK, who I'm unsure if he is on the PR, I believe he is... Uses Sheik and Zelda, along with ZSS. He says he uses female characters mostly, so he might use Peach. I also faced a really good Zelda that I couldn't beat with my Meta Knight personally but did quite well with Marth. I cannot recall the name, I believe he's from Montreal.

Anyway, any player can be unfamiliar in a match up, even for Meta Knight. Many of the players who came down to OiN2 had never played a good Meta Knight before, simply because there are none in their area. It all differs from person to person. In either case, many of the characters I posted about are used by players all in amongst the same area of the GTA, Niagara, and some of Montreal. They play each other at tournaments regularly and are familiar with each others characters. Match up experience usually isn't at fault in their turn outs.

 

[HeroMystic]

I believe it was... Boss? who beat another Meta Knight main with Luigi. He mains Mario. Both are within the same Tier, so I suppose the idea still holds.

He mains both Mario and Luigi, and he also defeated Metaknight mains with Mario. From my observations, he has a harder time with DeDeDe, for obvious reasons.

@Da K.I.D.: This is a competitive Smash forum.

 

[Zankoku]

i totally understand what your saying ulevo, but i think that MK is getting a little out of hand, in melee, there was always shiek, marth, fox, falco, and then tehre were those ic's peach, falcons, jiggs etc, but people could play who they wanted in that game because of how deep it was, but in brawl the MK thing is just out of hand, i don't think it matters how much experience you have, the best mario in the world still doesn't have a chance against MK, at least in melee pretty much everyone did.

This is a lie. It's hyperbole praising Melee for being more balanced than it actually was; and while it was quite fun, character diversity in Melee was no better than that in Brawl. Yeah, Mewtwo had all these crazy combos and such on Fox since Fox was a light fastfaller - the top Mewtwo player (Taj) would also almost never use Mewtwo against another top-level player in serious tournament play. Low tiers are low tier for a reason, and "omg I can combo spacies" is not going to save them from getting eaten alive by Marth's sword or chaingrabbed to death by Sheik.

The difference was that there were a lot more people in each region playing with a somewhat close margin of skill, so instead of a stratified level of dominance everywhere (Anther in Midwest, DSF in Pac. West, M2K and Azen in almost everywhere, BUM and NinjaLink in Atl. North, Ally in Canada, Dojo and Roy_R in Texas, AfroTHUNDAH and Reflex and Atl. South), you'd get like three or four players vying for first place in each region, giving this little image of diversity in the top placements that really only happens in national-level tournaments when it comes to Brawl.

But are you going to go ahead and say "who cares about diversity at the national-level, we're getting dominated by Meta Knight locally?" Who knows, I don't really care about the whole debate. I just dislike exaggerated points.

 

[Ulevo]

i dont think this is necessarily true. i think this site is just for people who really like the game and think its fun, regardless of their skill level or how many tourneys that they go to.

any colored name people wanna possible clear up this misconception (cus obviously, one of us is wrong here...)

p.s. i was in these threads when OS was making really detailed and informed posts.
and if i had gotten blown off the way some of his statements did, i might resort to just trolling people and sarcasm too...

The thing about Overswarm is that on many occasions, he has made what would appear to be an informed post, and another poster (whether if it be by another SBR member or someone else from the community) would reply to it, addressing the points he made, and he would simply ignore them and continue to lead off with sarcastic remarks. Either he doesn't pay attention to the posts being made, or he doesn't have answers to respond to the debates being made towards him.

And even if this web site were to serve both casual and competitive players (which it can serve casual players, I used this site years ago to learn about techs before I became competitive), the issue of banning Meta Knight is strictly a competitive matter. It will effect tournaments-- no one is arguing to ban or keep Meta Knight in casual matches.

 

[Overswarm]

I made more progress by just spouting random gibberish and jokes and sarcasm..... when I posted intelligently with detailed posts, people just kind of ignored it or would quote one line and say "NO WAY!!!".

 

[gantrain05]

This is a lie. It's hyperbole praising Melee for being more balanced than it actually was; and while it was quite fun, character diversity in Melee was no better than that in Brawl. Yeah, Mewtwo had all these crazy combos and such on Fox since Fox was a light fastfaller - the top Mewtwo player (Taj) would also almost never use Mewtwo against another top-level player in serious tournament play. Low tiers are low tier for a reason, and "omg I can combo spacies" is not going to save them from getting eaten alive by Marth's sword or chaingrabbed to death by Sheik.

The difference was that there were a lot more people in each region playing with a somewhat close margin of skill, so instead of a stratified level of dominance everywhere (Anther in Midwest, DSF in Pac. West, M2K and Azen in almost everywhere, BUM and NinjaLink in Atl. North, Ally in Canada, Dojo and Roy_R in Texas, AfroTHUNDAH and Reflex and Atl. South), you'd get like three or four players vying for first place in each region, giving this little image of diversity in the top placements that really only happens in national-level tournaments when it comes to Brawl.

But are you going to go ahead and say "who cares about diversity at the national-level, we're getting dominated by Meta Knight locally?" Who knows, I don't really care about the whole debate. I just dislike exaggerated points.

i can't say i exxagerrated anything in that post ankoku, its all truth man, shiek marth fox and falco shared pretty much equal representation in melee. and if we are ONLY talking about the best of the best then this whole debate only rests in the hands of like what 20 people? i don't think so, just using the very top of players in brawl/melee isn't the only factor in determining these things. you also have to consider all the tourneygoers who aren't freakishly good at these things like M2K, ken, and azen etc. brawl simply is like 40% MK and 50% snake/falco/DDD/G&W, in melee there was much less of a spread. the other 10% are the mid/low tiers obviously

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. theres a good amount of characters that are still only doing well b ecause people havent cared enough to learn how to fight them. lol
2. why are we still having this argument.

 

[Ulevo]

You're not telleng me anything I don't already know here. I am not a "casual player."

I wasn't claiming you to be. I was stating facts based on observations I've made with the regular poster on a majority scale.

You must be speaking figuratively, cuz those words have never left my mouth.

I was speaking figuratively. I thought that would have been obvious.

Yes, but there are also top players who place consistently well and go to tournaments on a regular basis, who knows this game like the back of their hand, clearly stating their informed opinion on why Meta Knight is worthy of a ban, so...

Yes, but quite obviously not as many.

Sorry, but I took the initiative to inform myself, and I formed my own opinion on the matter. I am not following anyone else's example.

It is very easy for any human to follow someone else's example, intentional or not.

Well, maybe that's why they're in SBR and you're not.

I have no exceptional tournament rank thus far, my join date is deceiving early, and I am not a regular tournament organizer. There are a plethora of reasons why I am not a SBR member. I couldn't be a member at this point in time, even assuming the contrary.

 

[Zankoku]

brawl simply is like 40% MK and 50% snake/falco/DDD/G&W, in melee there was much less of a spread. the other 10% are the mid/low tiers obviously

Whoo, statistics. This is actually something I can actually verify.
Using my rankings list, the point distributions read:
S Rank (Meta Knight): 26.27%
A Rank (Snake, King Dedede): 18.61%
B Rank (Falco, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, Wario, Lucario, Diddy Kong, ROB, Olimar): 30.55%
C Rank (Kirby, Peach, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Wolf, Zero Suit Samus): 15.60%
D Rank (Bowser, Zelda/Sheik, Toon Link, Pit, Ike, Luigi): 6.01%
E Rank (Everyone else): 2.97%

Snake/Falco/King Dedede/Mr. Game & Watch: 28.21%

These numbers are interesting, actually. I think I'll keep them around for future reference.

 

[Ulevo]

I made more progress by just spouting random gibberish and jokes and sarcasm..... when I posted intelligently with detailed posts, people just kind of ignored it or would quote one line and say "NO WAY!!!".

Correction, you made more of a reaction.