That's actually not that bad. Its a hella lot of MK, but not as bad as it could be, seriously.
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Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
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Mmac
Smash Lord
But if you separate the character by themselves and not by rank, the gap doesn't nearly look as close.
Do the same with Melee. Same **** happens, except Falco+Ice Climbers = Marth and C-E rank practically don't exist.
Overswarm
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The difference is that in Melee you had a much larger range of competitively viable characters in relation to how many characters there were.
In Brawl, you have Metaknight on his lonesome. You could possibly argue the existence of Snake based on a few regions... but that's it.
The Melee data you are using is flawed. You are using a severely limited number of tournaments and only the largest national tournaments in existence. I can tell you that a Marth never won midwest tournaments; we had Peach, Sheik, and Falco win more than Fox or Marth ever did. Was this common at large, national tournaments? No.
You don't have the tournaments to compare the two, but simply looking back at the consistent top players based on regions in Melee and then looking at the top ranking players at national tournaments in Melee, you'll find the characters aren't the same. It becomes a lot of Marth with Fox being prominent as a secondary, an Ice Climber, and a Sheik. There was... maybe two captain falcon players and two peaches, and a handful of Falco's that could ever dream of reaching the top 8 in national tournaments, making it appear as if Marth was dominating hardcore. He wasn't. Ken, Azen, and Mew2king dominated hardcore. Most marth players didn't win. Most Metaknight players do. You look at the large events for Brawl and you see an increase of Metaknights winning as time go by, same as Marth in Melee. You look at the regional and local events, and you still see Metaknight winning the vast majority while Marth had no such luck in Melee.
We'll go with November only for this one, then.
1 NinjaLink (Diddy Kong/ROB)
1 Azen (Marth)
1 Judge (Meta Knight)
1 Domo (Meta Knight)
1 Kenny (Snake/Olimar)
1 Nacho (Samus/Zero Suit Samus)
1 Anther (Pikachu)
1 Jem (Meta Knight)
1 Question Mark (Toon Link)
1 DSF (Meta Knight/King Dedede)
1 Tactical (Lucario)
1 BUM (Donkey Kong)
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight)
1 Clouderz (Meta Knight)
1 Anti (King Dedede)
1 Anther (Pikachu)
1 DSF (King Dedede/Meta Knight)
1 Erow (Snake)
1 JesiahTEG (Snake/Meta Knight)
1 Dark.Pch (Peach)
1 Ally (Snake)
1 S.D (Pit/Meta Knight)
1 Kruton (Snake)
1 Will_ (Meta Knight/Ness/Donkey Kong)
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight/King Dedede)
1 chillindude829 (King Dedede/Snake)
1 Sethlon (Falco)
1 Domo (Meta Knight)
1 Catnip (Meta Knight)
1 Tink (Mr. Game & Watch/Wario)
1 TKD (Meta Knight)
1 Mal (King Dedede/Ness/Mario)
1 Inui (Meta Knight/Snake)
1 Anther (Pikachu/Sonic/Fox/Lucario)
1 DieSuperFly (Meta Knight/King Dedede)
1 Ally (Snake)
1 Lee (Meta Knight/Lucario)
1 Dojo (Meta Knight)
1 Noodles (ROB)
18 Meta Knight winners out of 38 tournaments, so if you count winning a little less than half of all the tournaments in a month as dominant, I'd agree with you. If you count that as completely dominating.... >_>
1 NinjaLink (Diddy Kong/ROB)
1 Azen (Marth)
1 Judge (Meta Knight)
1 Domo (Meta Knight)
1 Kenny (Snake/Olimar)
1 Nacho (Samus/Zero Suit Samus)
1 Anther (Pikachu)
1 Jem (Meta Knight)
1 Question Mark (Toon Link)
1 DSF (Meta Knight/King Dedede)
1 Tactical (Lucario)
1 BUM (Donkey Kong)
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight)
1 Clouderz (Meta Knight)
1 Anti (King Dedede)
1 Anther (Pikachu)
1 DSF (King Dedede/Meta Knight)
1 Erow (Snake)
1 JesiahTEG (Snake/Meta Knight)
1 Dark.Pch (Peach)
1 Ally (Snake)
1 S.D (Pit/Meta Knight)
1 Kruton (Snake)
1 Will_ (Meta Knight/Ness/Donkey Kong)
1 Mew2King (Meta Knight/King Dedede)
1 chillindude829 (King Dedede/Snake)
1 Sethlon (Falco)
1 Domo (Meta Knight)
1 Catnip (Meta Knight)
1 Tink (Mr. Game & Watch/Wario)
1 TKD (Meta Knight)
1 Mal (King Dedede/Ness/Mario)
1 Inui (Meta Knight/Snake)
1 Anther (Pikachu/Sonic/Fox/Lucario)
1 DieSuperFly (Meta Knight/King Dedede)
1 Ally (Snake)
1 Lee (Meta Knight/Lucario)
1 Dojo (Meta Knight)
1 Noodles (ROB)
18 Meta Knight winners out of 38 tournaments, so if you count winning a little less than half of all the tournaments in a month as dominant, I'd agree with you. If you count that as completely dominating.... >_>
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
so many mk's jeeeeeeze
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
LOL@ Anther with 4 characters
Overswarm
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Umm.... how many for the character in second place?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i dont really think people can talk trash about OS not making informed posts anymore...
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
i really have to aks, but what is OS?
Overswarm
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I suggest you look and count what character is 2nd place and how many there are.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Have you watched the vids of Snakeee vs M2K? He's an example of working your hardest to become great. People should take after him.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Stop with this annoying argument.
"get better."
Thats it?
Fine, get better against Akuma, Old Sagat then.
Just saying get better doesn't mean anything if you don't say why getting better will help.
That and it automatically assumes that peolpe who want him banned suck which discredits both sides.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
People who cannot read make me sad.
In case you don't understand here is why,
It was not a comparison to Akuma
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
omgggg mk is not comparable with akuma, cmonnnn mannn
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
bra lover how can I be as epic as you?
Overswarm
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Nic, you're making an arugment that didn't exist.
He's saying that the attitude of "just get better against whatever is thrown at you" is pointless and stupid.
Akuma didn't win in SF against the Japanese. He wasn't banned there. Akuma didn't even win everything here against the top players. They were still the top players.
Did people point at them and say "we should get better like them!"
No, they said "**** that, this guy's broken. Just because there are 5 or 6 machines out there that can beat him doesn't mean we should have to deal with him. If you don't agree with me, you 5 or 6 kids can play the game and we'll all leave."
It wasn't a comparison to Akuma.
You said MK was winning the vast majority. The point is that he's winning a majority, but not a VAST majority. That being said he is the best character in the game and personally, if the gme becomes overcentralized on MK I'd like to see him go too.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
This is why you need to read.
The subject was jesiah's statement of "get better".
So I criticized him by mentioning the aforementioned characters and showing how "get better" is not a valid argument.
What do you mean by "why do you continue to bring him up?" Seriously explain this because I have NEVER compared Metaknight to Akuma. Assumptions are bad so don't make them. kthx.
MarKO X
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Hey guys... ST Akuma is the ultimate definition of broken. Soft or hard ban, top players don't play him because it would literally be Akumas taking all 20 top spots, period.
Old Sagat is different because he has been beaten by top players, and that's because he is beatable. But Akuma breaks the laws of ST tenfold.
And the get better argument... well, have you truly given up on fighting MK?
Old Sagat is different because he has been beaten by top players, and that's because he is beatable. But Akuma breaks the laws of ST tenfold.
And the get better argument... well, have you truly given up on fighting MK?
Overswarm
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Check it....
8 Snakes in 1rst place. 4 of them with a secondary, 2 of those with Metaknight as the secondary.
18 Metaknights in first place. 8 of them with secondaries (unless I miscounted).
That's the gap between the best character and the second best character. That is a HUGE gap.
Let's look at #3?
7 D3's. FOUR of them with Metaknight as a secondary. One of them a solo D3.
That is domination.... especially considering anyone who pays attention to the tournament scene knows that not all of those are the best players in the world and this list isn't weighted.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
Getting better will help because then you will start beating Meta Knights and realize he shouldnt be banned.
Wasn't it obvious? Get better is THE argument for anyone that is not an idiot, and wants a chance to not only succeed at high level play, but also a chance to stop complaining about Meta Knight.
And seriously, don't call the argument annoying. It may be annoying to you since you've never been to a Brawl tourney and you're absolutely out of the loop and have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to high level smash play, but to other people that don't think it's annoying and take that advice to heart...Guess what. They win.
M2K didn't start off as the best, he GOT BETTER.
Ninjalink wouldn't have been able to beat M2K if he didn't GET BETTER.
If you really say getting better is a stupid argument, you have absolutely no idea about high level smash and don't deserve to be posting anyways.
I don't hate you man, I haven't even met you. For all I know you could be an awesome guy. But to say "get better' is annoying? Wow dude. If you actually went to tournaments and improved to the point where you realize "Wow, MK IS PUNISHABLE! Wow, I didn't realize I could find an opening to attack when he does this! Oh, all I need to do is DI this way to avoid getting ***** by this move!" then you would realize MK shouldn't be banned, because you will start winning. It's as simple as that, I don't see why you don't understand it.
Nic64
Smash Lord
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that all depends on just how broken you believe meta knight to be
I should have worded that differently as I was speaking more generally, he gets mentioned a lot around these topics and I think he has little relevance, totally different style of game, totally different circumstances. MK is potentially ban worthy for breaking the counterpick system, not being insurmountable, ultimately both lead to diminished character diversity but the cause is different.
I don't know what you're trying to do. You made a claim, and Ankoku showed that it wasn't true. Move on?
Overswarm
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Actually, he made my point for me. o_O
Hey, how bout me? I'm a good player with more first place ranks than most Brawl tournament goers and I've been a threat to everyone I play. I guess I should just get better, huh? Losing to only one Metaknight and fighting the odds to win uphill battles and still coming to the conclusion that MK should be banned wasn't easy. You don't know me so you don't know how deep I go into the game, but talk to some people from the Midwest like Samurai Panda and Kel and ask them how long it took me to come to my conclusion.
"Get Better" is a fools ad hominem. What you are REALLY saying is that everyone else that has a problem sucks and YOU do not suck because obviously you don't have problems with MKs. How would you feel if I said "Get Smarter"? It wouldn't help anything, would be stupid, and would imply that you were stupid.
For every time you say "get better", the metaknight player can say the same thing to himself, improve beyond you because he has a higher mountain peak, and you're left behind.
Doesn't that assume you can get better faster than MK-users can? Which isn't really guaranteed?
Edit: what OS said^
MBlaze
Smash Champion
I heard that the SBR is currently 2/3 in percential form is against MK's ban, I really hope this isn't true. D=
Its 7/3 against MK's ban.
Edit: Its a ratio, OS, not every fraction is partial over total... besides, it looks worse this way.
Overswarm
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i lol'd ^___________^_
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You can beat Old Sagat in SF2 but he was still banned in a few regions.
just because you can beart them doesn't automatically imply that it shouldn't be banned.
Like the Ravager deck in Magic could be beaten by both tooth and nail but was banned ebcause of overcentralizing. It was beatable and so were those two decks.
Beatability isn't the major factor.
incorrect. That is an argument for idiots who go "lol MK is broken,."
MK is beatable, this has beens tated multiple times, yet that isn't what is being addressed by the pro ban side.
His beatability is not a winning argument since we have instances in which something is beatable but is banned due to overcentralizing and stagnation of the metagame.
Oh so that was the purpose of your questioning, so you can turn around and try to shove it in my face as if that validates your argument?
Sorry dude, but using personal attacks does nothing.
Let alone that its completely wrong.
Do I have to be in the NBA to know that kobey made an error in his paly?
When I watch Inui's MK playing atomsk's Olimar on youtube, do I need to have been there personally to know that he shouldn't have hovered above Atomsk with his tornado?
Sorry dude but your point is moot.
Saying get better is a TERRIBLE argument.
Why? because in many instances you have had something that was beatable but was banned for TWO main reasons.
overcentralizing and stagnation of the metagame. Which were actual major factors.
Not beatability as you and several other people try to make it appear.
Ravager in magic the Gathering is beatable by TWO other decks and those two other decks are also beatable.
Guess what happened to Ravager? Banned.
Ols Sagat is beatable but I found out recently that he had been banned in some regions. OH wait but he's beatable too.
Get better is a terrible argument because not only is it basically telling the opponent "You suck." but it is also self defeating int he fact that beatability is NOT a major factor in what is or is not banned.
Let alone that your insinuation on me not knowing anything about high level smash is terribly insulting. not only have I been ehre just as long as you (assuming you were luring since smashboards was created) but I also have experience in several other competitive communities.
I don't hate you dude. I usually like you, but then you make stupid posts like these that not only annoy me, but also make me think much less of you. I am going to call you out on everything you have said thus far in this post.
Show that I have NEVER agreed with MK being punishable.
Prove that I haver NEVER agreed with MK being beatable.
Prove that I have NEVER agreed to MK's attacks being DI'able.
prove every single one of those accusation that you have thus far made and I will shoot down every single one and make you realize how ignorant you have been thus far.
Prove that I have no experience about high level play in ANY field whatsoever. Prove that everything I have said is false because I apparnelty have no clue what high level play is.
Prove I have NEVER done well in any tournament.
Prove that beatability is a major factor and that in all cases where a character/deck/strategy was beatable that it was NOT banned.
prove that overcentralization and stagnation are not the reason that Ravager was banned and why Old Sagat has recently been banned in some regions.
Prove that "get better" is a valid argument that hasn't been shot down repeatedly.
normally, I would just address it regularly but my patience has run thin throughout these months.
Back up all of what you said. Or you can get off my back cause frankly, my patience has run thin with people making such stupid arguments that have been proven wrong MANY times.
I don't believe him to be broken or ban worthy at all.
I have stated my position in this argument repeatedly.
Ots not just counterpick issues, what needs to be addressed by both anti ban and pro ban is the following.
Does MK cause overcentralization?
Does he stagnate the metagame?
Those are the two biggest points of a banning and are ultimately the reason that Akuma, Ravager Decks, Red Eyes Darkness Metal Dragon were banned.
Not because they were broken.
Everyone is so focused on whether or not MK is broken that they forget that it is on what is the effect of him being broken. What effect does this "broken" character have and is it enough to say he should be banned?
Old Sagat could be considered broken in many ways but he is not ban worthy.
Same with marth and Sheik and Fox.
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BrawlLover
Smash Champion
i lol'd as well, so they will never ban a character in smash
Lol, gj SL. i think this "get better" thing should get shot down a little more just so we can bring it up as well when it's " your interpretation of data sucks cuz i'm better than you, so get better before your opinion can count."
God, seriously, elitism is the stupidest crap. -_-" It's as good as saying, I'm rich, your poor, so my opinions on the economy counts more than yours because I must know more because I'm rich. -_-"
God, seriously, elitism is the stupidest crap. -_-" It's as good as saying, I'm rich, your poor, so my opinions on the economy counts more than yours because I must know more because I'm rich. -_-"
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