Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[da K.I.D.]

seriously... that ratio is ********

he can kill just about any character with f/d-smash at little over 100 but dies to even the weakest smashes at i think below 100

 

[ShadowLink84]

He kills anyone at ridiculously low percents, has stupidly good priority, has fast and hard to punish moves, and is probably the best ledgecamper due to his n-air.

That 9 hammer has also cost me a set against Mew2King and Velocity in teams that Atomsk and I would have most certainly won otherwise, a match against Wes and Dire, and a match against Vex Kasrani. It's ********.

Game and Watch is the most terrifying character, imo.

Excellent candidate for "best character in the game without Meta Knight in it."

Well I don't find the judgement hammer to worrisome though it is indeed better than melee.
It sucks when it comes out but what can you do?
Definitely one of the best characters in the game.
He's light but it matters little since he can kill heavy weights at percentages comparable to friggin middle weights.

 

[BrawlLover]

ohhh that's what he meant! yeah i have to agree man, gnw dies quite easily, even though killing with that amazing down smash is just ludacris

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think it was the second strongest Dsmash in the game IIRC.

 

[BrawlLover]

who's the best? please don't tell me mk looool is it!? omg please i hope not

 

[Inui]

seriously... that ratio is ********

he can kill just about any character with f/d-smash at little over 100 but dies to even the weakest smashes at i think below 100

What? No. Game and Watch can live decently despite being the second lightest character. Good DI can keep him alive and hitting him in the first place is really hard because of how amazingly safe he is.

 

[ShadowLink84]

On another note.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qK6TLQSNLtA

Kirby gets owned by hole in space and time

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BkTCF8Enhw4&feature=related

The second is the lulz

 

[ProBrawler]

Ugh, G&W is the second biggest pain to face in my opinion. His range, priority, speed and little lag of attacks, strength and stupid easy overpowered "combos" are ridiculous. Plus he has the bucket which is incredibly good in teams. His recovery isn't even that bad. Plus he has a weird hitbox and his small size makes him tough to hit sometimes. For some reason Zelda's short hop f-air never works on a grounded G&W but short hop b-air does. So weird. BUT BEFORE WE GET INTO A DEBATE ABOUT HOW HE WOULD DOMINATE: HE HAS COUNTERS.

 

[Inui]

BUT BEFORE WE GET INTO A DEBATE ABOUT HOW HE WOULD DOMINATE: HE HAS COUNTERS.

Uh... I don't think Game and Watch has any matches worse than 45/55, and those matches are arguably even, like the one with Marth. Meta Knight and Snake are the only characters that truly beat him, imo, and it's extremely slight. I don't agree that Marth has a real advantage worth anything. I think he's in the same league as MK and Snake in terms of amazingness, and I'd put Falco, Diddy, and Olimar in that section, too.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i heard tink does amazingly well for a character being a tier lower...

 

[gantrain05]

i believe Toon link is a very solid counter to G&W maybe even Link.

 

[Face124]

well, this is my opinion so don't flame. I think they should just ban him. its a clear majority and has changed by about 16% in pro-ban favour since the last thread, so I'm assuming there must have been some good pro-ban points brought up in the podcast (which I, annoyingly, haven't seen).

 

[Master Knight DH]

No. Just...no.

Yes. Just....yes.

Quit playing online.

I don't have to.

Edit: Or if you're going to keep playing, which really is fine, quit bringing it into a discussion about offline play.

Arrow spam is less abusive online. That's supposed to make a difference. It doesn't.

its debatable but for most ppl arrows are possibly the best projectile in the game.
that doesnt change the fact that projectile spam of any kind is cake to get around compared to MKs sword.

I'd rather face Meta Knight's sword than Pit's arrows. At least Meta Knight's sword is close range, and Meta Knight himself actually DIES when you get past it.

winning>credibility

you just go back to normal when everone thinks you're stupid now.

I shouldn't be stuck with a stupid desperation tactic. Let alone one that treats the Pikmin like water, and one that does not fit the character's personality for that reason alone.

And it doesn't work anyway. I have tried it.


On topic of G&W......yeah. I think HE is more ban worthy than Meta Knight would be. At least you can touch Meta Knight, HE doesn't even kill people with simple kill moves at generally borderline h4x percentages, and HE doesn't make usage of even one projectile haunt you with the possibility of being nailed by a ridiculously high KB attack capable of killing at REALLY h4x percentages, that you can't even react to.

However, my complaint is about Pit, who abuses counterpicking way too far.

 

[gantrain05]

pit sucks, he's mid tier material, and again, just because YOU have problems with pit, does not make him broken, you just need to practice to get around it, he's not really all that tough to beat.

 

[Inui]

Pit's A tier, probably. I can't see him being S tier ever and B tier is too low for a character with his positives.

Arrow spam and Pit in general are far easier things to handle than Meta Knight, so I don't understand why Master Knight DH is complaining so much.

lol @ Game and Watch being more bannable

He is, by a substantial margain imo, the most noob friendly character in the game, but not bannable.

 

[Master Knight DH]

pit sucks, he's mid tier material, and again, just because YOU have problems with pit, does not make him broken, you just need to practice to get around it, he's not really all that tough to beat.

If he's middle tier, then how did he get in High tier with:
1) Few players representing him to begin with.
2) Fewer players in comparison being decent with him.
3) A hard counter in the frequently enough used Game & Watch.

I'm sorry, but there was a reason why Fox's blaster, which in SSB was slower than Pit's arrows and can't even be directed up, causes no flinching in Melee and Brawl. Pit's arrows prove that reason.

 

[1048576]

I fing MK much easer to pick up because all his moves can be used at any time, and his roll is more spammable.

 

[gantrain05]

Pit's A tier, probably. I can't see him being S tier ever and B tier is too low for a character with his positives.

Arrow spam and Pit in general are far easier things to handle than Meta Knight, so I don't understand why Master Knight DH is complaining so much.

lol @ Game and Watch being more bannable

He is, by a substantial margain imo, the most noob friendly character in the game, but not bannable.

yeah i agree, but pits really A rank? meh, i just never really have any problems with pits, ,mostly cuz there are literally no good pits anywhere near me, but still lol. he's definatley not a broken character, and arrow spam is not hard to get thru, and once you do, his close range game is kind of lacking, very small range on his smashes, his tilts are slow, except his Utilt, and he has alot of trouble killing.

 

[Inui]

Master Knight DH, you need to learn how to powershield and dodge things consistently. >_>;

 

[camzaman]

so, we have over 60% currently...is that a super-majority? start looking for the ban hammer...

 

[Mmac]

What? No. Game and Watch can live decently despite being the second lightest character. Good DI can keep him alive and hitting him in the first place is really hard because of how amazingly safe he is.

The ultimate irony though is that this is coming from the same guy who said that MetaKnight (Who can also DI, and recover from stun super quick) can't live past 100 on Snakes Utilt. What makes you think G&W Fairs better when he is almost twice at light, and doesn't have the quick aerials to help him recover?

Plus why are we talking about Game & Watch now?

so, we have over 60% currently...is that a super-majority? start looking for the ban hammer...

The last poll was 60:40. This really isn't anything different.... Plus only 650 people have voted...

 

[Master Knight DH]

Pit's A tier, probably. I can't see him being S tier ever and B tier is too low for a character with his positives.

At least we can agree that B rank is too low for Pit.

Arrow spam and Pit in general are far easier things to handle than Meta Knight, so I don't understand why Master Knight DH is complaining so much.

Ugh. Arrow spam is not easier to handle than Meta Knight. Both require insane reaction time when combating them at their respective ranges, but if you go long range against Meta Knight, you can just play smart against him and he can't catch you with an approach. You can't go long range against the arrows because they're long range and therefore Pit won't have to worry about being hit. And if Pit sees you approaching him, he punishes you but good.

lol @ Game and Watch being more bannable

You mean the swordsman who relies on not messing up to survive is more worth banning than somebody who kills at ridiculously low percentages for his options.

He is, by a substantial margain imo, the most noob friendly character in the game, but not bannable.

I wouldn't call G&W newbie friendly with his clunky controls. But if he's going to kill ROB around 100%, he should at least be possible to kill easily like his weight is supposed to suggest as well.

yeah i agree, but pits really A rank? meh, i just never really have any problems with pits, ,mostly cuz there are literally no good pits anywhere near me, but still lol. he's definatley not a broken character, and arrow spam is not hard to get thru, and once you do, his close range game is kind of lacking, very small range on his smashes, his tilts are slow, except his Utilt, and he has alot of trouble killing.

You'll have a lot of trouble killing him, though. 4 jumps and a glide on top of workable weight, as well as a ridiculous Up B. And he can make use of the confusion he causes with the arrows to punish approaches.

Master Knight DH, you need to learn how to powershield and dodge things consistently. >_>;

I already do that. The arrows are too fast for decent reaction.

 

[BentoBox]

God Master, you must really fail hard at this game.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Am I really witnessing someone argue that Pit's arrow spam = Meta Knight? Wow, never thought I'd see that.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Am I really witnessing someone argue that Pit's arrow spam = Meta Knight? Wow, never thought I'd see that.

Welcome to Smash Boards =D

 

[1048576]

It's an 08er

 

[adumbrodeus]

Tell you what Ulevo.

You want to prove something other than 50:50 exists for MK vs. other characters than Snake. You provide the proof of this claim.

You're asking people to disprove something that's never been proven in the first place, and the tournament results do in fact disagree with you (If multiple other characters when played at equal skill were advantaged vs. MK he would not have as many wins as he has compared to them, they'd be able to beat him and claim that top position.) Snake is the only one really supported in them, because his win rate is significantly higher than the other characters -- and even then it only currently supports the 55:45 matchup because if it were a significant advantage more Snakes should be taking down MKs for first place. It could also be echoes of Snake's popularity and MK field clearing to let him get to that final round and have a 50:50 shot at winning too, so even possibly supported the 55:45 is far from proven.

Forgot to mention this.

No, it's not deviation from the normative opinion, it's deviation from the null hypothesis.

The null hypothesis is "nothing", in other words, no advantage, 50-50. All deviations from that have burden of proof.

LMAO @ your Enstein reference. Let me put it in smash terms for u.

People on Smashboards say MK beats Snake. Good, high level players say Snake beats MK.

Now, the difference is the people on Smashboards don't go to high level tournaments as frequently as the top level players, and they don't place as well. This is because they aren't as good players obviously, and they can't think of as good strategies or implement them as well.

So, when M2K or Inui or Atomsk or any high level player says Snake beats MK, they are saying this because they've been in the position as MK or Snake and have concluded data from their experiences. You, as in Shadowlink, have no idea what it's like as Meta Knight to try and get inside of a Snake that limits what you can do using grenades and tilts you with precise timing and accuracy every time you get close. You really can't comment accurately on the matchup, because you don't know it as well as other high level players.

In addition, every matchup characteristic in MK's advantage that the people that think MK beats Snake refer to all the time, the good players that know the matchup have experienced it all. Yes we all know MK ***** Snake in the air. Yes we all know MK edgeguards Snake really well. We take that into account when determining the matchup also.

It's really frustrating for people who have put a ton of time and effort into the game, spent a lot of money travelling and gone through a lot in general to get to where we are today, only to have people that post on Smashboards tell us we are wrong and use silly Einstein references to back up what they say. We know what we're talking about, we've been through everything that we are arguing for. Yes what we say is opinion. but it's backed by a lot of experience and research, the kind that's impossible to duplicate by reading character boards.

Also, you really can't use Azen for any arguments really. We all know he's unorthodox. Not to mention, the kids that were trying to use Side B to approach probably were terrible or had little tournament experience. I can tell you right now if Azen told me to approach with Side B as Luigi, I would first laugh, then tell him to pick Luigi and try it on me. I would then proceed to **** him really really badly as he tried to approach with Side B. This is because I'm not an idiot, and there are a lot of other players like me out there who aren't idiots and wouldn't do that anyways.

In response to your answers.

A.) You should really ask NL to play. He's awesome and you'd get real good.
B.) Ok, so you really have no Brawl experience at all. Thanks for at least being honest.
C.) Same as B pretty much.

To answer your question, I don't think your logic is worse, I just think it holds less value. Like, everything you are saying makes sense for the most part, only it's not true. For example, when you say good players aren't always knowledgeable and that everyone's opinion holds the same weight... I see where you're coming from and it makes sense...Only it's not true. As much as people hate to admit it, Inui's opinion does indeed hold more weight than yours. He's SEEN first hand the things he's talking about, he's experienced it. If he thinks Snake beats MK, it's obviously because he's been on the Snake side and beaten MK, he's been on the MK side and lost to Snakes, he's SEEN other good players on either side lose or win in the matchup. He's talked with other high level players about it. Players that have thought of strategies on both sides, and have determined using their own intelligence and thinking and testing that Snake wins.

Sucks for Inui after all of the time he's put into the game, all of the tournaments he's hosted, all of the matches he's been through and all of the people he's spoken with, he shares what he's learned and people come in and say, " The character boards determined this. I'd rather believe them than your opinion which is no better than anyone's."

Here's a fact: Some people's opinions do indeed hold more value than other people's. Character boards can only be used as good references if there are players there that have been to tournaments, worked hard to study everything they've learned, and contributed to the boards. Marth boards are really reliable because Emblem Lord contributed all of his knowledge to it. Snake boards are not that reliable because there are just a bunch of people there who don't really know what they are talking about. Now let's say DSF came in and started sharing with them everything. They'd be IDIOTS to say to him, "Your opinion holds no more value than anyone else's here!"

Essentially that's what you are doing as well as others. It just doesn't make sense.

While at face value what you are saying is correct (experienced people's opinions hold more inherent value then experienced people), what you suggest is the implication of this fact is both totally illogical and antithetical to debate as a whole. This is implication is that individuals without this experience cannot impeach opinions of more experienced players.


It is understood that high-leveled players are more likely to be correct then the average smasher. However more likely DOES NOT SATISFY BURDEN OF PROOF, EVER. Nor does it satisfy the qualifications for disproving an argument. It merely means greater likelihood.


The reasoning here is simple, a more experienced player should be better able to support his/her opinions and should've had more chance to test his/her opinions. However this DOES NOT prevent them from making errors. An error in reasoning may also be pointed out by any person, because regardless of any outside factors, a blind man an occasionally hit a bullseye, and an expert marksman may occasionally miss the broadside of the barn. Logic is concerned with results. In the same way, a person with any level of intellect and experience may come to a correct or incorrect conclusion, and they must all be debated on equal ground.


You may consider it insulting, but so might every other field that has to do with these basic facets of logic, including the philosophers and mathematicians who defined these concepts. Deal with it, logic is blind to the person who puts forth the argument, only the argument itself is actually relevant. The only change is certain people are more likely to put forth a correct argument.


If you insist on that line of reasoning, let me point out that it's self-defeating. You do not have the philosophical and mathematical background in logic that I have. Therefore, under your line of reasoning, your opinion about logic is worthless when opposed by somebody with more experience in the field. Therefore, your opinion about logic cannot stand.


Because your opinion on validity of an opinion is an appeal to authority, but that logical process is rejected by a superior authority in the field of logic, it fails.

Am I really witnessing someone argue that Pit's arrow spam = Meta Knight? Wow, never thought I'd see that.

He did it before, and we beat him down with data.

The thing is, his experience is wifi, where Pit's arrows are a great deal more powerful then IRL.

 

[Radiation]

whaaaaaaaaat I play on wifi because I never have anyone else to play with and Pit's arrows are LESS good because they're harder to aim, and if you're good enough to aim them (in which case they ARE better, but only because you can't see them coming) despite the lag then you should also be able to predict where they're going (i.e., usually at you and you can just airdodge or roll through them) "great deal" yeah right

In any case, I find myself on the, uh, "not banning" end of the spectrum. I really, really hate Metaknight and I loathe fighting him (mostly because I'm terrible at it because I have no matchup experience) but I feel like most of the people voting in the polls honestly have NO idea what they're doing at all, and that they're just bandwagoning with everyone else like it's some sort of mob and we're all gonna lynch some guy. SMASHBOARDS WANTS TO SEE SOME BLOOD, ALRIGHT!? How many of the 700 that have voted in the poll are tourneygoing players with a lot of experience under their belts? It's unfair for anyone else to impress their uninformed, inexperienced opinion onto the people that, y'know, actually have to deal with the ban. (this could be anywhere from 10% to 95% of the poll, I have no clue. but the people that are doing it are D: )

Also all of Overswarm's posts have really turned me off because they've been really negative and just exude the raw spirit of crushed dreams. The man has a personal vendetta against Metaknight. He doesn't want him banned, he wants him humiliated, crushed, forced to use a secondary against someone HE'S playing as... and when the MK loses, he'll spit in his eyes and laugh. Probably.

Uh, anyway, I'm in full support of a temporary ban, and I think we should do one SOON. That way things will work out like this:

- if this idea is a good one, everything will magically and happily change like the ban-pro people are talking about. or, anyway, at least... tourneys will be more diverse? Or... uh... we just won't have to fight metaknight? Mostly that last one. Anyway, if it actually makes a difference then hooray we can keep him banned and everyone's happy except for the people that play metaknight.

- if the idea is a bad one (non-ban people win) then we unban him and everybody is just like "okay so why were you guys scrubs again lol"

of course, SBR doesn't have control over everything, I don't think we can ban MK everywhere even if we tried

also, kind of unrelated but I like how people were like "oh my god TOO MANY METAKNIGHTS IN THE TOP" at hobo 11 and then the same guy that got 3rd got 2nd in some non-mk tournament with lucario (lee or whatever, I THINK) HMMM MAYBE IT IS BECAUSE OF HIS PERSONAL MERIT AS A PLAYER AND NOT OF HIS CHARACTER CHOICE??? ... nah

 

[-Nana-]

uh, a lot of people thought snake beat MK, before banning MK was even an issue even

Snake does beat MK. This is another unnecessary thread. There's no need to ban characters.

I agree with the wall of text Jesiah posted.

Also this may come off as a bit ignorant but I find G&W to be a very predictable character. I think Marth, Snake and MK at least counter him. There are also certain characters like Falco or Fox who can hold their ground although they may be disadvantaged it's not by THAT much and can be worked around. This given, he's still easily one of the best in the game but please do not talk about GAW and the word ban together.

 

[Master Raven]

I actually think Ike at best goes 35:65 against MK. If he didn't have such a shoddy recovery it could probably even be 40:60.

I also don't really like to rely on character matchup topics for the most part due to conflicting opinions over various boards.

 

[Nic64]

lmfao lets ban pit!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

II also don't really like to rely on character matchup topics for the most part due to conflicting opinions over various boards.

I completely agree.

I think the Ike match-up is 6/4 MKs favour though. If Ike avoids lags as far as it goes he has some nice advantages: weight, range, KO power. His recovery is the only thing that keeps him from going even with him imo.

 

[momochuu]

I hate MK because you have to play by his game, unless you're Diddy.

 

[Zankoku]

I play my game, all the time. Well, I tried playing Inui's game once but he failed to mention that it's for Snake only.

 

[Tenki]

Master Knight DH, you need to learn how to powershield and dodge things consistently. >_>;

I already do that. The arrows are too fast for decent reaction.

Inui: What he means is, it's hard to powershield and dodge arrows online.
I agree with him. Online, you have to predictively powershield crap, and against something like Pit's arrows, you'll more likely get hit than not. And Pit's arrows are overpowered online.




just add online to any of his arguments and everything makes more sense.

 

[ADN]

nooo

no deben de banear a metaknight no seanllorones jueguenles a ganar asi nunca van a subir de lvl

 

[The Milk Monster]

I hate MK because you have to play by his game, unless you're Diddy.

I was listening to Show Me Your News, and they were debating at one point about Diddy's match up against Metaknight.
They said he rocked him on the anti ban side I believe.
Then the ban side came in and said they were only basing this off NinjaLink's Diddy rocking M2K.

 

[Master Raven]

Do most people really base Diddy's matchup against MK off of NinjaLink's victory against M2K, or is that simply a misunderstood notion? I don't understand how anyone would actually base anything off of one match.

 

[BrawlLover]

i think diddy looks cool and does great against anyone

 

[da K.I.D.]

diddy is a good character but hes does not beat MK

and yes, when NL beat M2K about 4 months ago everyone was up in arms

however NL has and will say himself that diddy does not beat MK, but he himself beats MKs