Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[Yuna]

Problem with that Yuna, this topic will move so fast that he wont be able to find it T.T

There's this really useful button called "Go to first new post". If you go to sleep and come back and click it, you will be taken to the first post you haven't read since you last read the thread (if you've read it at all).

I guess he is better, but from what everyone says, he is much much better than anyone on the list.

And none of this matters.

Why am I a "wannabe"? I never said that I'm a game designer that makes money out of it or has studied anything. I said I program games, which is true.

No, you specifically said you were a "game designer". You should still know what defines glitches, bugs and errors.

I don't care what you think of Austria. And just because I don't know exactly what a word means it means my games suck or whatever you thought?

No, I think that you're most probably not very good at designing games if you have as little insight into what games are as to think that D3's infinite is in any way a glitch, a bug or an error, three very different things, none of which D3's infinite is.

Yeah because the game designers wanted that Dedede has a chaingrab on nearly all characters and can infinite some?

Against game designer intent/Not picked up by the game designer =/= Glitch/Bug/Error

How many times must we say this?

Of course not, but this thing should, because if makes something really really bad. It is an oversight that does in no way make the game better. It makes it worse, so I don't see the problem in banning it.

None of these are good reasons to ban things.

"It does something bad" - Yeah, well, not bad enough.
"It makes the game worse, in no way better" - Yeah, well, so do tons of things that aren't banned.

Wtf are you talking about? And Captain Falcon can run away from Meta Knight! Does that mean MK will never hit him because CF is faster? No.

You spoke as if you can never ever avoid getting grabbed by D3. But you can. You were exaggerating, just as you always seem to do.

Those are results I copied that were posted in Ankokus thread.

So you don't even know who those people are. That Ike player is most probably leagues better than the people he beat since Ike isn't very good. Ankoku seems to agree since his post indicates that, yes, the Ike player is must better than his opposition in that tournament.

And I just said that the skill gap is small.

And you would know this how? You don't even know these players. You were not there, there were probably no videos recorded. You are making stuff up.

If you're not talking about the results, then let's go back to what prompted me to bring this up the first place:
You claiming that match-ups are winnable, always, except D3 vs. DK and D3 vs. Bowser. No, they really are not. Melee NTSC Sheik vs. Melee NTSC Bowser is not winnable. Captain Falcon vs. Mete Knight (an argument you actually made) is not winnable...

Unless the skill level is huge.

I wasn't talking about that.

Either you were or you are delusional if you think CF stands a chance against MK. A character with one of the worst recoveries in the game vs. one of the best edgeguarders and gimpers in the game? Yeah...

Tell this the players.

If people mess up the infinite a few times then they will still win against DK, because the matchup is that bad.

This is no reason to ban anything. This is not the argument I was making. I was pointing out the obvious flaws in your argument that CF stands a chance against DK or that Sonic and Lucas are viable. They aren't. Sonic is kinda viable if you eliminate MK from play.

You said that it is possible to have 100 % equal skill.

Yes, it is. I also said that it is highly improbable. It is not 100% impossible. It is just one on gazillion or something to be 100% the same (in a single set of matches). It will most probably never occur, but it is possible in the abstract sense.

Of course, this does not matter. The term to keep in mind is "two people of roughly equal skill". You're just grasping at straws now trying to pinpoint even the slightest, irrelevant, flaw because of a lack of actual arguments.

 

[Tyser]

Wow.. your not even a good troll.

Go back and try to learn to troll again lolz

You play Brawl. Nuff said.

 

[gantrain05]

yuna, your so mean lol.

and why god, is the main debaters for the pro-ban side making such horrible statements? i wish i was good at debating, but i simply am not. stop throwing things out like "unwinnable" it makes you look like a scrub, the DK vs DDD matchup w/out the chaingrab is ACTUALLY not that bad, at least according to alot of DK mains, he has the tools to properly space DDD, and i don't know how many times it has been said, but matchups do not warrant a ban, unless said character has a notable advantage to nearly the entire cast, which isn't the case. yeah DDD has an infinite on DK, yeah its bad, but unwinnable? no, its not. Why are you making these assumptions anyway luigi player? you said yourself you don't even main DK, so how would you even know if its unwinnable? I'm still pro-ban, but the arguments some of you people are putting up are making me wish i weren't.

 

[Wylde]

Yunas only bad argument was the one against Austrian gaming knowledge, as stereotyping is not a logical argument. Other than tat he did really well.

These Pro Banners are ridiculous.

 

[Brinzy]

FFFF, sorry.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Luigi Player, for the umpteenth time, be sure to NOT make sweeping generalizations as to why we play the characters that we play. I don't care about Zelda's character, just the fact that she can end lives extremely early in the air.

Look, taking a look at his area, and smash's record there as a serious fighting game, I can understand why he has that impression.

Europe has never gotten over that "kiddie" image for Smash and refuses to consider it even a "serious" party game, let alone a serious fighting game.

That's why Nintendo hired Sirlin to do tutorial vids for it, so people would take the game seriously, they're using it for their European advertising campaign.

So, it stands to reason that his impresson would be true of his area, because of the game's image in Austria the players generally chose to play and continue to play because they like the characters.


The important point to consider is that in that regard, Austria would be the exception. Most areas don't have that issue and most players don't play because of the characters, that should be obvious.



So the point to hammer home is not so much that he's wrong, but that his area is unusual in that regards, and the sales figures and Nintendo's advertising campaign show this.

 

[Brinzy]

If what you say is true, then while I can now see why he keeps taking that position... he should know by now that it doesn't work that way for North America. I mean, there's really nothing wrong with playing because you like the characters, but at the same time, I can't see why he hasn't picked up on this irregularity yet (or rather, why he still refuses to completely acknowledge it).

 

[adumbrodeus]

If what you say is true, then while I can now see why he keeps taking that position... he should know by now that it doesn't work that way for North America. I mean, there's really nothing wrong with playing because you like the characters, but at the same time, I can't see why he hasn't picked up on this irregularity yet (or rather, why he still refuses to completely acknowledge it).

I think because when presented with opposite information he keeps slightly editing his position, thinking that it was slightly incorrect, but the concept was fundamentally correct, not realizing that the average smash culture is fundamentally different the Austria's Smash culture.


It's not too uncommon for people to not realize that their culture's way isn't the only way things are done until explicitly told otherwise.


So, just keep telling him that the rest of the world is not like Austria, eventually he'll get past the culture shock... hopefully.

 

[Luigi player]

Well, I am really sure that many people play the game because of the characters. I didn't say the competitive players do... but overall the Casual gamers probably play it because of them. Why would they else play it? It's not "cool" or anything.

Also were you people here when Brawl was announced? The characterboards were the biggest part by far and everyone wanted their favourite character in the game. They play a big roll, at least for some people.

Just because it isn't like that for you 5 guys doesn't mean it is like that for everyone else.

The Ness boards at least like their character really much. I'm sure this is the same for some other boards, and most Brawl-newcomers are casual gamers which also like to play as the characters they like.

I can not believe that it is not like that...


Anyway:

DK vs D3 would not be that bad for DK if the infinite was banned. Nobody said anything else.

But with the infinite it is impossible for DK.
And yeah DK isn't my main, and? Does that mean I never play him? He's one of my secondaries.

I hate it when people say stuff like "this isn't unwinable" and probably never even played the matchup (I did).
You guys have no idea how bad the match is. It is 0:100 for a reason.

 

[Brinzy]

I like Ness, too. We probably DO have characters that we like, but we do not always place that above everything else!

 

[Yuna]

Luigi Player

Well, I am really sure that many people play the game because of the characters. I didn't say the competitive players do... but overall the Casual gamers probably play it because of them.

And I told you: It does not matter what Casual players do or don't do.

Why would they else play it? It's not "cool" or anything.

Because they like the gameplay?

Also were you people here when Brawl was announced? The characterboards were the biggest part by far and everyone wanted their favourite character in the game. They play a big roll, at least for some people.

Casual players. Who, as I've already established, do not matter in this debate.

The Ness boards at least like their character really much. I'm sure this is the same for some other boards, and most Brawl-newcomers are casual gamers which also like to play as the characters they like.

I can not believe that it is not like that...

No one has ever argued that a large portion if not the majority of Casual Smashers play the game because of the characters. However, I did state that they do not matter! You brought up caring about characters into this debate as if it mattered to the debate.

Most players play the game because of their favorite character's presence, blah blah. Now if this is only true for Casual players, why does it matter?! This is Competitive Smash. Most Competitive Smashers do not play the game Competitively because their favorite character is in it. And even if they did, that's no reason to ban things.

I hate it when people say stuff like "this isn't unwinable" and probably never even played the matchup (I did).

Yet you claim so many other things, such as Captain Falcon vs. Meta Knight isn't unwinnable due to your misguided and ignorant parameters for what "unwinnable" means.

No, it is not winnable to any extent that matters in the eyes of Competitive gaming. Nobody (credible) cares if the best Captain Falcon in the world might beat mediocre Meta Knights.

You guys have no idea how bad the match is. It is 0:100 for a reason.

You have no idea how bad the Captain Falcon vs. Meta Knight match-up is. It is, for all intents and purposes, unwinnable.

Yunas only bad argument was the one against Austrian gaming knowledge, as stereotyping is not a logical argument.

I did not, in any way, stereotype Austrian gaming knowledge.

I merely stated that if Luigi Player had managed to get a degree in gaming design out of an Austrian college/university, then I'd stop playing games even partially made in Austria because IMO, knowing the difference between a glitch, a bug and an error is something every single game designer should know and if you don't and still pass the "bar", then the school's not that good, the local industry's not that good and they allow way too many unqualified people to pass.

This was not stereotyping, this was a criticism of a standard (if it were true).

That's why Nintendo hired Sirlin to do tutorial vids for it, so people would take the game seriously, they're using it for their European advertising campaign.

Which quite the mystery considering how the game was designed in the first place.

So the point to hammer home is not so much that he's wrong, but that his area is unusual in that regards, and the sales figures and Nintendo's advertising campaign show this.

He's wrong on many things concerning Austria's smash scene. I still want any kind of proof that he's in any way anywhere near being the best player in Austria.

Apparently, he doesn't travel. So all Austrian tournaments must, somehow, be held in his city.

I think because when presented with opposite information he keeps slightly editing his position, thinking that it was slightly incorrect, but the concept was fundamentally correct.

Are you saying that he's strawmanning himself?

It's not too uncommon for people to not realize that their culture's way isn't the only way things are done until explicitly told otherwise.

Only if they're arrogant, delusional, illogical and ignorant to the ways of the world... and assume they know everything about cultures they have never encountered or studied.

 

[Luigi player]

Luigi Player

And I told you: It does not matter what Casual players do or don't do.


Because they like the gameplay?


Casual players. Who, as I've already established, do not matter in this debate.


No one has ever argued that a large portion if not the majority of Casual Smashers play the game because of the characters. However, I did state that they do not matter! You brought up caring about characters into this debate as if it mattered to the debate.

Most players play the game because of their favorite character's presence, blah blah. Now if this is only true for Casual players, why does it matter?! This is Competitive Smash. Most Competitive Smashers do not play the game Competitively because their favorite character is in it. And even if they did, that's no reason to ban things.


Yet you claim so many other things, such as Captain Falcon vs. Meta Knight isn't unwinnable due to your misguided and ignorant parameters for what "unwinnable" means.

No, it is not winnable to any extent that matters in the eyes of Competitive gaming. Nobody (credible) cares if the best Captain Falcon in the world might beat mediocre Meta Knights.


You have no idea how bad the Captain Falcon vs. Meta Knight match-up is. It is, for all intents and purposes, unwinnable.


I did not, in any way, stereotype Austrian gaming knowledge.

I merely stated that if Luigi Player had managed to get a degree in gaming design out of an Austrian college/university, then I'd stop playing games even partially made in Austria because IMO, knowing the difference between a glitch, a bug and an error is something every single game designer should know and if you don't and still pass the "bar", then the school's not that good, the local industry's not that good and they allow way too many unqualified people to pass.

This was not stereotyping, this was a criticism of a standard (if it were true).


Which quite the mystery considering how the game was designed in the first place.


He's wrong on many things concerning Austria's smash scene. I still want any kind of proof that he's in any way anywhere near being the best player in Austria.

Apparently, he doesn't travel. So all Austrian tournaments must, somehow, be held in his city.


Are you saying that he's strawmanning himself?


Only if they're arrogant, delusional, illogical and ignorant to the ways of the world... and assume they know everything about cultures they have never encountered or studied.

Okay, I still think most players play it because of the characters. If you want to change that you'd have to show me facs (a poll or something). But it doesn't matter anyway.

Sorry if I don't know every specific term for programming in a language I don't even speak, lol.
But I guess that's not a good excuse. I just didn't think about it enough and also didn't really care what exactly I call it. It is an oversight from the programmers. I hope you're happy now?!


And I don't really care if you think I'm good or bad at smash. I know that I'm good. I also played it nearly non-stop a few months (well, a few stops like sleeping/girlfriend/etc.).
I'm sure my Brawl playtime is much more than from most people (of course for people who got the game earlier than the EU release this might not be the case).

We also don't have many Brawl players here sadly, but Serpit is here, and he's pretty good/known.
If I tell you I mostly play online you'll probably just say "lol, online". But it's the best thing I can do right now (it's better than nothing).
Online I'd be top 2 from germany too. Of course I know online doesn't have to mean anything though.

 

[Jupz]

but if its banned then you will still be able to short step CG bowser, DK, wario, gano and wolf... only mario, luigi and samus will be saved and even then only one of them is possible to be used in tourneys (luigi)...

 

[Yuna]

Okay, I still think most players play it because of the characters. If you want to change that you'd have to show me facs (a poll or something). But it doesn't matter anyway.

Why? You have zero facts to prove your standpoint.

Sorry if I don't know every specific term for programming in a language I don't even speak, lol.

Terms. You called it both a glitch, a bug and an error. Surely you must know what the very common word "error" means? And I'm pretty sure the German word "fehler" doesn't cover D3's infinite.

By the way, I have it on good authority, coincidentally another Austrian, that the word "error" is a word you, as a 20 year old who, I'm assuming, has gone through the Austrian educational system, should know because it's so common.

But I guess that's not a good excuse. I just didn't think about it enough and also didn't really care what exactly I call it. It is an oversight from the programmers. I hope you're happy now?!

Yes, you were wrong all along. It's an oversight. And the question would be:
And? Who cares?

It is irrelevant. So, really, you were arguing something that is irrelevent (if you indeed meant to say "programmer oversight" from the beginning). Tacking on "programmer oversight" onto every single one of your arguments does not make them any more valid.

Because it doesn't matter if it's an oversight or not! I'm pretty certain Sakurai and the programmers never intended for us to RAR. Ban it!

And I don't really care if you think I'm good or bad at smash. I know that I'm good. I also played it nearly non-stop a few months (well, a few stops like sleeping/girlfriend/etc.).

I'm sorry, I was not aware of that I was arguing whether or not you were any good at Smash. I was contesting your claim to be the best Brawl-player (or possibly Smasher in general) in Austria, possibly one of the best in Europe.

Stop strawmanning yourself!

I'm sure my Brawl playtime is much more than from most people (of course for people who got the game earlier than the EU release this might not be the case).

Playing the game for a very long time does not ensure prowess. One can be incompatible with a game, have no talent for it and/or just be playing it "wrong".

We also don't have many Brawl players here sadly, but Serpit is here, and he's pretty good/known.

Tell me, do you beat him? Or more importantly, do you beat people he cannot beat (which would make you better than him, simply beating him but losing to people he beats would make you worse than him)?

Because you claimed to be the best Brawl/Smash player in Austria.

If I tell you I mostly play online you'll probably just say "lol, online".

What makes you think I haven't already (and I have)? Winning online means jack squat.

But it's the best thing I can do right now (it's better than nothing).

Tell me again how this, in any way, supports the claim that you are the best player in Austria, maybe one of the best in Europe?

Online I'd be top 2 from germany too. Of course I know online doesn't have to mean anything though.

Why would Germany matter? It's another country. Also, how would you possibly know that? Brawl does not have an online ranking system. There is absolutely no way for you to know where you stand in regards to other players online!

Maybe you haven't played the best online players in Austria or Germany (which you most probably haven't). And, online means jack squat anyway since it lags and therefore renders several characters unviable (for one thing, I'd like to see a person who can always pull off a D3 infinite, seeing as how online has input lag).

Online eliminates the option of consistent perfect shielding, thus making Falco god tier since he can just spam laz0rs all day. Several characters become rendered unviable since with lag, they have no way of combating laser camping.

So, no, nobody really cares about online. And since you don't travel, there is no possible way for you to know that you are the best player in Austria since you've never played the best players in Austria.

 

[Luigi player]

Why? You have zero facts to prove your standpoint.

Well it's just my experience...

Terms. You called it both a glitch, a bug and an error. Surely you must know what the very common word "error" means? And I'm pretty sure the German word "fehler" doesn't cover D3's infinite.

Yeah it was just because I didn't think too much about how I'd say it.

Yes, you were wrong all along. It's an oversight. And the question would be:
And? Who cares?

Well I always just meant that. Who cares? The people who play the affected characters. Obviously the people that don't play those mostly don't care.

It is irrelevant. So, really, you were arguing something that is irrelevent (if you indeed meant to say "programmer oversight" from the beginning). Tacking on "programmer oversight" onto every single one of your arguments does not make them any more valid.

I already said if you only see it from the competitive viewpoint and by those "ban-rules" than there is no reason to ban it. You still say things I can argue about though.

Because it doesn't matter if it's an oversight or not! I'm pretty certain Sakurai and the programmers never intended for us to RAR. Ban it!

You compare such a technique with an infinite? I know you could say other examples, but this one is really bad.

I'm sorry, I was not aware of that I was arguing whether or not you were any good at Smash. I was contesting your claim to be the best Brawl-player (or possibly Smasher in general) in Austria, possibly one of the best in Europe.

I'm not the best Smasher in general. I don't play Melee much (I get 4 stocked from Fox128 most of the time). The game is so old and I like to play the new one. I was good in Melee for some time, but I stopped playing it entirely after Brawl was released. I only play it if we have some smashfests. And of course I don't really have a good feel anymore how everything works and such.

Playing the game for a very long time does not ensure prowess. One can be incompatible with a game, have no talent for it and/or just be playing it "wrong".

Yes of course it doesn't, but it's one of the reasons I'm as good as I am.

Tell me, do you beat him? Or more importantly, do you beat people he cannot beat (which would make you better than him, simply beating him but losing to people he beats would make you worse than him)?

Yes, I beat him more often than he beats me, and I beat people he doesn't beat.

Because you claimed to be the best Brawl/Smash player in Austria.

I'm talking about Brawl.

What makes you think I haven't already (and I have)? Winning online means jack squat.

Yup.

Tell me again how this, in any way, supports the claim that you are the best player in Austria, maybe one of the best in Europe?

Of course online doesn't mean too much, but I'm leading a ladder right now and the only player who wins more often than me is reaper, who spams with ROB the whole time >_>

Why would Germany matter? It's another country. Also, how would you possibly know that? Brawl does not have an online ranking system. There is absolutely no way for you to know where you stand in regards to other players online!

I'm playing against german people every day. We have our own smashboards forums and we do have some ladders.

Maybe you haven't played the best online players in Austria or Germany (which you most probably haven't). And, online means jack squat anyway since it lags and therefore renders several characters unviable (for one thing, I'd like to see a person who can always pull off a D3 infinite, seeing as how online has input lag).

If there are some unkowns in germany that nobody knows about they probably can't be better. It doesn't lag that much, but I always hate playing online after I played offline... it's still better than nothing though. Yeah the D3 infinite is not as easy as offline, but online we don't have the Advanced Slop Pick, which means you always run the risk that your enemy takes D3 and it sucks. I already tried to talk to everyone, but they just don't care. And D3s infinite might not be as easy as offline, but you can still do it really really easy if you just set your cstick to grab.

Online eliminates the option of consistent perfect shielding, thus making Falco god tier since he can just spam laz0rs all day. Several characters become rendered unviable since with lag, they have no way of combating laser camping.

Yes I hate campers. Especially ROB, because everyone else is beaten much easier.

So, no, nobody really cares about online. And since you don't travel, there is no possible way for you to know that you are the best player in Austria since you've never played the best players in Austria.

Serpit traveled and he won a tourney in germany.
I play offline with my austrian smashers. We have our "little" community and we're more than 20 people in vienna. Including Serpit.


Btw, we're getting off topic here a little. If you want to talk to me about how good I am you can PM me, haha.

 

[Yuna]

Well I always just meant that. Who cares? The people who play the affected characters. Obviously the people that don't play those mostly don't care.

No, what I implied was:
Why should that matter?! Why should it matter if some people just like some characters? Not all characters are viable. Competitive fighting gaming is not about always playing as your favorite character! If you can't accept that, then maybe it's not for you.

I already said if you only see it from the competitive viewpoint and by those "ban-rules" than there is no reason to ban it. You still say things I can argue about though.

So you're just saying "In my opinion, this should go... I have nothing to really back this up but my own opinion. I feel my way is better than yours... I just can't tell you why".

You compare such a technique with an infinite? I know you could say other examples, but this one is really bad.

You're reading properly. I'm saying that whether or not it's a programmer oversight is irrelevant.

I'm not the best Smasher in general.

Really?

I don't play Melee much (I get 4 stocked from Fox128 most of the time). The game is so old and I like to play the new one. I was good in Melee for some time, but I stopped playing it entirely after Brawl was released. I only play it if we have some smashfests. And of course I don't really have a good feel anymore how everything works and such.

You said absolutely nothing about how good you are at Brawl. You claimed you were the best Brawl player in Austria. I'm challenging that. Prove it or admit you were blatantly lying.

Yes of course it doesn't, but it's one of the reasons I'm as good as I am.

And just how good would that be?

Yes, I beat him more often than he beats me, and I beat people he doesn't beat.

And do you beat everyone in Austria? Because I don't even know who Serpit is and whether or not he's even one of the best in Austria (because I'm no expert on Austria's Smash scene). Heck, do you beat him in tournament matches or just friendlies and/or online?

I'm talking about Brawl.

So you're sticking by your claim to be the best Brawl player in Austria?

Yup.

"Yup it does" or "Yup, it doesn't"?

Of course online doesn't mean too much, but I'm leading a ladder right now and the only player who wins more often than me is reaper, who spams with ROB the whole time >_>

Who cares about your ladder? Does your ladder feature every single good player in Austria? Also, if you're not even winning the most in your very online and laggy ladder, how could you possibly claim to be the best player in Austria?

I'm playing against german people every day. We have our own smashboards forums and we do have some ladders.

But you wouldn't be Top 2 from Germany. You'd be 2nd ranked if you were to play against the Germans who play online.

Did you know that many good players do not play online because it messes them up? It messes up their timing, which is a bad thing for when they play offline? Not all good players play online. It is online.

If there are some unkowns in germany that nobody knows about they probably can't be better.

Does every single good German Smasher play in that ladder?

It doesn't lag that much, but I always hate playing online after I played offline... it's still better than nothing though.

But it's no proof you're the best in Austria or 2nd best after the best of Germany.

Yeah the D3 infinite is not as easy as offline, but online we don't have the Advanced Slop Pick, which means you always run the risk that your enemy takes D3 and it sucks.

That was not the point. The point is that Online Brawl is an entirely different game from Offline Brawl. The lag makes it so. Wi-Fi R.O.B. and Wi-Fi Falco are much better characters online than Offline.

I already tried to talk to everyone, but they just don't care.

Why is this relevant?

And D3s infinite might not be as easy as offline, but you can still do it really really easy if you just set your cstick to grab.

Not if the game randomly lags your input.

Yes I hate campers. Especially ROB, because everyone else is beaten much easier.

Online is a different game. Suffer.

Serpit traveled and he won a tourney in germany.

But you didn't. Just because you beat him and beat more Austrian players than you does not mean you would've beaten those German players. And what tourney is that, anyway? "A tourney" doesn't automatically mean anything. Did the tourney have the best of Germany there? Was it big?

I play offline with my austrian smashers. We have our "little" community and we're more than 20 people in vienna. Including Serpit.

Do you win against everybody the most within that community (in tournament matches and money matches)? Is that community the strongest in all of Austria? Do you win against everyone more than they win against you in tournaments (because I play way worse in friendlies than tournaments because I just can't be bothered to go all out in friendlies) in Austria?

Online means nothing. Friendlies mean very little. Many people play differently in friendlies than in tournament matches, this is a fact. Just because you beat someone/it's close in friendlies does not mean they won't 3-stock you in tournament matches.

Btw, we're getting off topic here a little. If you want to talk to me about how good I am you can PM me, haha.

I'm just trying to establish your lack of credibility. We're already established that you know very little about Competitive gaming, Competitive Smash, D3's infinite, what constitutes glitches, bugs and errors and what qualifies as "unwinnable".

I guess the only thing left is to attack your claim of "Best Brawl player in Austria, possibly in all of Europe!".

 

[Cirno]

Because the inputs are much more complex? It's like saying "What's stopping Fox players from getting the Cruel Waveshine Infinite down as naturally as just wavedashing?" Well, seeing as how you're doing about three times as much...

....it should take three times as long?
That's the logical answer right?

Guitar Hero songs get more complex as you raise the level, and take longer to learn/master accordingly. Doesn't the necessary technical ability and amount of time necessary to learn technique work the same?


Really,what is stopping them?
The only answers I can guess are they don't think it's worth the effort(which is a pretty uncompetitive attitude since it is), or they simply don't want to.

If you have a 70% chance of messing up a JC Shine infinite that deals 40% damage before your right hand spontaneously combusts, and a 20% chance of misreading a Shine into tech/wakeup punish that deals 37% damage, which would you go for?

If I confident enough to use the infinite in tourney settings, my chance of messing up the jc shine infinite wouldn't be 70% for one.

And here we have to take into consideration set factors:

• After my hand combusts(or just gets tired for realistic purposes) I will no longer be able to continue the infinite meaning I will only get 40% off.
  
• After succesfully landing a shine into tech/wakeup punish, I can follow up from 37% possibly even the jc shine to combustion, meaning it's value is much higher than just the jc shine to combustion option.

The first option will always have a larger percent chance in errors no matter how much you minimize it through practice/experience, but if the high(er) risk is not met with high(er) reward, why attempt it?

It's like choosing between Falcon Punch approach as to nair.

In MBAC, a certain character has his normal combo that deals a fairly good amount of damage, and another combo that requires frame-perfect timing on two separate instances that deals 100 more damage. The only time people ever go for the second one is for combo vids when messing around in Practice Mode.

Melty Blood is love.<3

As far as this goes it comes down to two questions:

Is it humanly possible?
I believe yes since people do it in practice mode( I'm assuming intentionally, not by mistake or luck)

And is it worth the possible chance of messing up?
100 more damage sounds worth it to me. It may not to others.

Seems in a lot of cases similar to this it may come down to play style.

The only thing the JC Shine infinite is worth is bragging rights. I'm pretty sure the infinite has been known for a long time now, but it's still not used or even attempted most of the time.

I believe that in the sense of competitive spirit, If humanly possible it will be mastered.
Not everyone, but someone will.

If you could do it consistently, wouldn't you use it?

If they can use it consistently and aren't, they are not playing to win. It's as simple as that.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My point is that Melee Players (such as I still am) DON'T use aforementioned shine infinite because its too hard to be consistent with, where you can do something else that's more consistent. EVEN THOUGH THE RESULT WAS AN INFINITE, NO ONE DOES IT CAUSE IT'S TO****HARD. Not that they would if they knew about it or anything, they just don't. This has been around for more than a year, and no one uses it.

Wobbling has been out for a while now too. Not every ice climber uses it because it's difficult.
IC mains know about it, some may practice and still not get it. Wobbles does though as well as a few other. It's the ability and desire to do these things other players can't that sets us all apart.

Whether you're Bad, good, amazing, or one of the top players in the world depends on you.

Moral of the story: if you can do something, doesn't necessarily mean that someone will master it, EVEN IF IT'S GOOD.

All that story really said was that the jc shine is very difficult, a lot of Fox mains do not have the ability or desire due to it's difficulty to do it consistently.

Also, at a previous point: MK IDC was banned because its a stalling technique, and it would be impractical to have judges watching every MK game to determine if the MK is using it for stalling vs "safely retreating". When does one become the other? TOs would have to monitor all MK matches because of this, and it's just not reasonable. That's why it's banned. Not because people can exploit this to invariably win matches (unless you're talking about stalling).

I thought it was banned for possible over centralization since it would be the only viable tactic and character. Same with Luigi's Mansion.

You can stall on any board or using several techniques but aren't those two the ones that will force all competitive players to do this or lose?

The thing stopping something difficult from being like wavedashing in melee? Melee's wavedash has a several frame window, with only 5 different timings for the whole cast (1 timing is for bowser alone). Something like a JC shine infinite has a 1 frame window, and must be repeated at a reasonably fast rate. Something like alt-grabbing requires different timing for the whole cast. There things are on a totally different magnitude of technical skill from a wavedash. SOME THINGS WON'T BE MASTERED, EVEN IF IT IS BENEFICIAL TO DO SO.

We understand somethings are more difficult than others. No one's arguing that. Alt grabbing is harder than Dthrow chain imo. But isn't learning the alt throw or even harder imo, the buffered fwd throw on heavies better despite it's difficulty?

If it's beneficial and humanly possible to be mastered, why wouldn't it?

Eye'm afraid I don't agree, sir.

also: how did i NOT catch the portal reference the first time?

You caught it. You just like to hurt me.
u_u;

 

[Luigi player]

No, what I implied was:
Why should that matter?! Why should it matter if some people just like some characters? Not all characters are viable. Competitive fighting gaming is not about always playing as your favorite character! If you can't accept that, then maybe it's not for you.

I play Diddy anyways lol. And he's really good.

So you're just saying "In my opinion, this should go... I have nothing to really back this up but my own opinion. I feel my way is better than yours... I just can't tell you why".

I already told you why, but those aren't good enough reasons for you.

You're reading properly. I'm saying that whether or not it's a programmer oversight is irrelevant.

Yeah i know. I just wanted to point it out.

You said absolutely nothing about how good you are at Brawl. You claimed you were the best Brawl player in Austria. I'm challenging that. Prove it or admit you were blatantly lying.

I could show you some results that we have in our forums if you really insist on it o_O

And just how good would that be?

lol, what answers could I give here? I'd say really good.

And do you beat everyone in Austria? Because I don't even know who Serpit is and whether or not he's even one of the best in Austria (because I'm no expert on Austria's Smash scene). Heck, do you beat him in tournament matches or just friendlies and/or online?

I ***** Serpit the last 2 tourneys we had.

So you're sticking by your claim to be the best Brawl player in Austria?

Yes -_-

"Yup it does" or "Yup, it doesn't"?

I know that it doesn't have to mean much. I'm no scrub.

Who cares about your ladder? Does your ladder feature every single good player in Austria? Also, if you're not even winning the most in your very online and laggy ladder, how could you possibly claim to be the best player in Austria?

This ladder is for austria and germany. There are also some players from other countries.
We currently have a 500 € tournament running on that site.

But you wouldn't be Top 2 from Germany. You'd be 2nd ranked if you were to play against the Germans who play online.

I'll say it again: We have our own smashboard forum. There are all good players.

Did you know that many good players do not play online because it messes them up? It messes up their timing, which is a bad thing for when they play offline? Not all good players play online. It is online.

Yes. I also hate online, but it's better than nothing.

Does every single good German Smasher play in that ladder?

No, but many. Including the best player.

But it's no proof you're the best in Austria or 2nd best after the best of Germany.

The "proof" is that I always win offline against the people in my country.

That was not the point. The point is that Online Brawl is an entirely different game from Offline Brawl. The lag makes it so. Wi-Fi R.O.B. and Wi-Fi Falco are much better characters online than Offline.

Yeah that is true.

Not if the game randomly lags your input.

Which doesn't happen. Only with certain people (who suck anyway). There is like no lag. We just have a bit of delay.

Online is a different game. Suffer.

lol

But you didn't. Just because you beat him and beat more Austrian players than you does not mean you would've beaten those German players. And what tourney is that, anyway? "A tourney" doesn't automatically mean anything. Did the tourney have the best of Germany there? Was it big?

It was the only and first tourney that had Brawl. There probably are no other communities that make some tourneys. We'd know those people. Or at least the germans would know them. So it had the best players there. I have no idea how big it was, I wasn't there.

Do you win against everybody the most within that community (in tournament matches and money matches)? Is that community the strongest in all of Austria? Do you win against everyone more than they win against you in tournaments (because I play way worse in friendlies than tournaments because I just can't be bothered to go all out in friendlies) in Austria?

Yes. The only one who can even beat me is Serpit lol.

Online means nothing. Friendlies mean very little. Many people play differently in friendlies than in tournament matches, this is a fact. Just because you beat someone/it's close in friendlies does not mean they won't 3-stock you in tournament matches.

I know. I'll tell you again, I'm no scrub.

I'm just trying to establish your lack of credibility. We're already established that you know very little about Competitive gaming, Competitive Smash, D3's infinite, what constitutes glitches, bugs and errors and what qualifies as "unwinnable".

I don't care about other competitive gaming. I care about smash competition. This stupid infinite is stopping some characters and it should just be banned (to make them viable).
You know as good as me that DK vs D3 is unwinable. And Captain Falcon has a chance to win. It doesn't mean he does, but he could theoretically win. DK can not.

I guess the only thing left is to attack your claim of "Best Brawl player in Austria, possibly in all of Europe!".

I never said I'm the best brawler in europe. I said I'm probably one of them.

 

[Yuna]

I play Diddy anyways lol. And he's really good.

This had absolutely nothing to do with what you were replying to. I'm noticing a pattern with you.

I already told you why, but those aren't good enough reasons for you.

I just asked you to use facts to back up your statements. The pro-ban side have been able to actually use the facts to their advantage. You, however, have not, because your arguments are almost 100% pure opinion and guessing.

Yeah i know. I just wanted to point it out.

What part of "irrelevant" (bolded) was confusing you? We know you just wanted to point it out. I was telling you it was irrelevant, so you shouldn't be pointing stuff like that out.

I could show you some results that we have in our forums if you really insist on it o_O

Where you beat every single good player in Austria and are crowned the best player in Austria? I'd like to see those.

Also, does Fox128 play Brawl at all? And if he does, do you beat him?

I ***** Serpit the last 2 tourneys we had.

Congratulations. Is Serpit the 2nd best Brawl player in Austria (since if you ***** him, you're better than him, so he can be 2nd best at best)?

This ladder is for austria and germany. There are also some players from other countries.
We currently have a 500 € tournament running on that site.

Yes, and since no one else in Europe apparently knows about it, it's most probably not that well known outside of those circles. Not to mention that not all good players would spend money to play in an online tournament.

Still, if you're losing to someone online (in number of wins), then if we're gonna go by online, you are not the best player in Austria.

I'll say it again: We have our own smashboard forum. There are all good players.

That is not the question. The question is whether or not you beat all of the good players. Whether or not they are a member of your own Smash forum does not matter.

No, but many. Including the best player.

Including the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th best? Are the very best players in Germany in that ladder? Or are you only 2nd best just because very few of the best in Germany participate?

The "proof" is that I always win offline against the people in my country.

Yet you admit to not traveling. So are all Austrian tournaments held in Vienna? Who are the top players of Austria?

Which doesn't happen. Only with certain people (who suck anyway). There is like no lag. We just have a bit of delay.

Delay is equally as bad when you're comboing or chaingrabbing someone. If the game has delay, it might not get your move out in time for a successful combo/chaingrab.

It was the only and first tourney that had Brawl. There probably are no other communities that make some tourneys. We'd know those people. Or at least the germans would know them. So it had the best players there. I have no idea how big it was, I wasn't there.

They've only had 1 Brawl tournament? This explains everything. Germany's Brawl scene is tiny, insignificant and probably not that good.

Yes. The only one who can even beat me is Serpit lol.

Congratulations. I have no idea how you can be, apparently, one of the best players if not the best player in Austria (not like we really care about Austria) yet know so little about Brawl.

Maybe Austria's scene is just quite small and not very good.

I know. I'll tell you again, I'm no scrub.

How should I know that you don't know? After all, you didn't know what "error" means. And I see you conveniently left that part out of your reply, the part where I said that another Austrian gamer told me that you'd have to know what "error" means.

I don't care about other competitive gaming. I care about smash competition.

Competitive gaming in general, like how Competitive gaming works. And what a 80-20 match-up means (MK vs. CF).

This stupid infinite is stopping some characters and it should just be banned (to make them viable).

But Competitive gaming is not about making as many characters as possible viable through bans. It never has been and never will be.

You know as good as me that DK vs D3 is unwinable. And Captain Falcon has a chance to win.

If you think that, then I fear for Austria's Smash scene. Because you guys can't be that good if you still think that.

It doesn't mean he does, but he could theoretically win. DK can not.

Theoretically, anything is possible. Theoretically, if the D3 sucks enough, DK can win. It's the same with CF. If the MK sucks enough, CF can win. But they are both unwinnable match-ups. DK's match-up against D3 is worse, but they are both unwinnable.

It's a 80-20 for a reason. The fact that you are still fighting me on this makes it all the more perple

I never said I'm the best brawler in europe. I said I'm probably one of them.

That was a mistyping. I accidentally left out "one of" in the "possible the best in Europe". I apologize.

 

[Luigi player]

This had absolutely nothing to do with what you were replying to. I'm noticing a pattern with you.

Okay.

I just asked you to use facts to back up your statements. The pro-ban side have been able to actually use the facts to their advantage. You, however, have not, because your arguments are almost 100% pure opinion and guessing.

What statements?

What part of "irrelevant" (bolded) was confusing you? We know you just wanted to point it out. I was telling you it was irrelevant, so you shouldn't be pointing stuff like that out.

Nothing confused me. I still point things out that if you're comparing such totally different things.

Where you beat every single good player in Austria and are crowned the best player in Austria? I'd like to see those.

Videos or what? We don't have vids. We only have the brackets and the lists of who placed where.

Also, does Fox128 play Brawl at all? And if he does, do you beat him?

No he doesn't.

Congratulations. Is Serpit the 2nd best Brawl player in Austria (since if you ***** him, you're better than him, so he can be 2nd best at best)?

Serpit was known as one of the best Brawlers in europe and he already won some online tourneys before Brawl came out in europe.
Serpit is of course the 2nd best player in Austria and if we combine the german with the austrian list it would proabbly be like this:

1/2 reaper/me
3 Serpit

Yes, and since no one else in Europe apparently knows about it, it's most probably not that well known outside of those circles. Not to mention that not all good players would spend money to play in an online tournament.

Well don't you know the consoles sport league? csl? http://consoles.net There you can find some ladders.

Still, if you're losing to someone online (in number of wins), then if we're gonna go by online, you are not the best player in Austria.

If we're gonna go by online, I'm the second best player in germany and the bester player in austria. The second best is also debateable because I didn't even use Diddy in our last tourney matches.

That is not the question. The question is whether or not you beat all of the good players. Whether or not they are a member of your own Smash forum does not matter.

Everyone can beat everyone...?!
The only one who has a better record would be reaper.

Including the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th best? Are the very best players in Germany in that ladder? Or are you only 2nd best just because very few of the best in Germany participate?

Maybe not the 5th best.

Yet you admit to not traveling. So are all Austrian tournaments held in Vienna? Who are the top players of Austria?

Yes. Vienna is the capital city of Austria fyi and it has probably the biggest smash scene.

Delay is equally as bad when you're comboing or chaingrabbing someone. If the game has delay, it might not get your move out in time for a successful combo/chaingrab.

Yes but if you just infinite someone you just need to think a bit ahead. Since you're doing the same all the time anyway it won't be hard. The timing is also the same, you only see it a little bit later.

They've only had 1 Brawl tournament? This explains everything. Germany's Brawl scene is tiny, insignificant and probably not that good.

I said it was the first Brawl tournament, not the only one.

Congratulations. I have no idea how you can be, apparently, one of the best players if not the best player in Austria (not like we really care about Austria) yet know so little about Brawl.

How do you figure I know little about Brawl? Because I want an infinite banned? el o el

Maybe Austria's scene is just quite small and not very good.

Maybe

How should I know that you don't know? After all, you didn't know what "error" means. And I see you conveniently left that part out of your reply, the part where I said that another Austrian gamer told me that you'd have to know what "error" means.

I know what error means, I just didn't say it accurately. Glitch, bug, or whatever. I don't care how you want to call it. It was not intended and should not be here. Especially because it destroys those characters.

Competitive gaming in general, like how Competitive gaming works. And what a 80-20 match-up means (MK vs. CF).

Captain Falcon still has a chance.

But Competitive gaming is not about making as many characters as possible viable through bans. It never has been and never will be.

I already said what it would do, and it would also help the game to last longer, because there are more things that could happen.

If you think that, then I fear for Austria's Smash scene. Because you guys can't be that good if you still think that.

Why are you over-centralizing? What I think has nothing to do with what other Austrians think.

Theoretically, anything is possible. Theoretically, if the D3 sucks enough, DK can win. It's the same with CF. If the MK sucks enough, CF can win. But they are both unwinnable match-ups. DK's match-up against D3 is worse, but they are both unwinnable.

No. If the CF is good enough, he could win. It doesn't matter how good the DK is though, he will always lose. He has no chance.

It's a 80-20 for a reason. The fact that you are still fighting me on this makes it all the more perple

80-20 =/= 100-0

That was a mistyping. I accidentally left out "one of" in the "possible the best in Europe". I apologize.

Ok.

 

[Yuna]

What statements?

All of them?

Nothing confused me. I still point things out that if you're comparing such totally different things.

They're both programmer oversights. You kept repeating "programmer oversight" (or rather "glitch", "bug" and "error") as if it mattered in what should be banned. With this logic, so should RAR.

I was pointing out how ridiculous your use of "programmer oversight" was since it is irrelevant.

Videos or what? We don't have vids. We only have the brackets and the lists of who placed where.

I did mention videos? You claim you have "results". I wanted to see them. Stop assuming.

No he doesn't.

This explains a lot.

Serpit was known as one of the best Brawlers in europe and he already won some online tourneys before Brawl came out in europe.

There it is again. Online. The best Brawlers do not participate in online tournaments for money due to the lag.

And who cares if Serpit won a tournament or two (online) back when the game was new and no one was very good at it?

Well don't you know the consoles sport league? csl? http://consoles.net There you can find some ladders.

Brawl is one of the worst games to play online as a Competitive sports. That is all that matters.

If we're gonna go by online, I'm the second best player in germany

No, this is impossible because you do not live in Germany. You beat everyone but their best player (among those who actually play online).

The second best is also debateable because I didn't even use Diddy in our last tourney matches.

Johns. Why would you not use your best character against a player who's apparently the best in Germany?

Everyone can beat everyone...?!

What does this have to do with anything I said?

Yes. Vienna is the capital city of Austria fyi and it has probably the biggest smash scene.

Fine, I might conceede that you're the best in Austria. Too bad for Austria, I guess.

Yes but if you just infinite someone you just need to think a bit ahead.

No matter how much you think ahead, if the game friggin' delays your input, you're not gonna get that regrab!

The timing is also the same, you only see it a little bit later.

Depends on the lag and input delay.

I said it was the first Brawl tournament, not the only one.

Funny, this is what you said:
It was the only and first tourney that had Brawl

If you meant something else entirely, then it's your fault for not writing it out better. But you did say that it was "the only [...] tourney that had Brawl [in Germany]".

How do you figure I know little about Brawl? Because I want an infinite banned? el o el

No, based on what you've said in this thread.

I know what error means, I just didn't say it accurately.

No, you used the word "error" for something that wasn't an "error", so it's blatantly obvious you do not know what the word means or you just think you do (and you're wrong).

Glitch, bug, or whatever. I don't care how you want to call it. It was not intended and should not be here. Especially because it destroys those characters.

It's not a glitch, it's not a bug. How many times must we say this? You are using the words "glitch", "bug" and "error" wrong and according to a fellow Austrian gamer, it is near inexscusable for a 20 yearold Austrian to not know what the English word "error" means.

Captain Falcon still has a chance.

No. You continously claiming this means you have no insight into Competitive gaming or Competitive Brawl. In the eyes of Competitive gaming, he does not. He has a tiny chance of the MK player is much, much worse of a player than he is and keeps screwing up over and over and over again.

But nobody cares about cases like that. We only care what happens when two people of roughly the same skill face each other at the highest level of play. And if that happens, CF is not going to win. It is an unwinnable match-up.

You clearly have no insight into how Competitive gaming works or just fighting games in general if you think CF stands a chance... unless, of course, you mean a really, really good CF players vs. a really, really bad MK player, in which case it is irrelevant since they're not of roughly the equal skill and clearly not playing the game at the highest level.

I already said what it would do, and it would also help the game to last longer, because there are more things that could happen.

And I already told you that we do not ban things for those reasons.

Why are you over-centralizing?

Stop using words you do not know the meaning of.

What I think has nothing to do with what other Austrians think.

You cannot be a very good player if you do not know that Captain Falcon vs. Meta Knight is an unwinnable match-up. If you still do, you are clearly not playing this game at a very high level. And if you are the best player in Austria, well, the rest can't be very good, then.

No. If the CF is good enough, he could win.

No he couldn't.

It doesn't matter how good the DK is though, he will always lose. He has no chance.

Nobody cares. We only care about people of roughly equal skill level at the highest levels of play. Nobody cares if the world's best CF can beat a mediocre MK.

It has no bearing on Competitive play and its rules. And if we go far down enough, if we're just gonna assume that one side is really good while the other sucks, we could just throw the world's best DK vs. a really bad D3 and have the D3 keep messing the infinite up somehow and say that DK still stands a chance.

CF vs. MK is an unwinnable match-up. The longer you keep on arguing the opposite, the clearer it's going to be just how in the tank the Austrian Smash scene must be.

80-20 =/= 100-0

80-20 =/= Winnable

I never said they were the same. You are just strawmanning me/misreading me/hallucinating/in urgent need of English lessons.

I said that 80-20 is unwinnable.

 

[Luigi player]

They're both programmer oversights. You kept repeating "programmer oversight" (or rather "glitch", "bug" and "error") as if it mattered in what should be banned. With this logic, so should RAR.

It is alltoghether what makes it ban-worhty (in my eyes).
It is a skill less infinite that makes some characters unviable.

I was pointing out how ridiculous your use of "programmer oversight" was since it is irrelevant.

It is one of the reasons why it isn't problematic to ban it.

I did mention videos? You claim you have "results". I wanted to see them. Stop assuming.

Eh, I don't care anymore.

This explains a lot.

It explains nothing.

There it is again. Online. The best Brawlers do not participate in online tournaments for money due to the lag.

As you see they do.

And who cares if Serpit won a tournament or two (online) back when the game was new and no one was very good at it?

He was first a long time on the online ladder and only one could beat him (and it was a lucky win). The only ones who can beat Serpit are reaper and me. Some others might also be able to every now and then, but Serpit still wins the majority.

Brawl is one of the worst games to play online as a Competitive sports. That is all that matters.

I know it sucks.

No, this is impossible because you do not live in Germany. You beat everyone but their best player (among those who actually play online).

I already beat him.

Johns. Why would you not use your best character against a player who's apparently the best in Germany?

Because I was really angry and always made mistakes (SDs, pressed the wrong button etc.). So I didn't care anymore and just chose Meta Knight, and this was the first time I ever used him in a "real" fight.

Fine, I might conceede that you're the best in Austria. Too bad for Austria, I guess.

Just because you don't like me because you're an ignorant *** doesn't mean it is bad for Austria.

No matter how much you think ahead, if the game friggin' delays your input, you're not gonna get that regrab!

If you can't think 1/2 second ahead I feel sorry for you.

Depends on the lag and input delay.

I already said there is no lag, only a bit delay.

Funny, this is what you said:
It was the only and first tourney that had Brawl

If you meant something else entirely, then it's your fault for not writing it out better. But you did say that it was "the only [...] tourney that had Brawl [in Germany]".

Oh, you're right. That was I mistake.

No, based on what you've said in this thread.

Just because you suck doesn't mean anyone else can't win really hard matchups.

No, you used the word "error" for something that wasn't an "error", so it's blatantly obvious you do not know what the word means or you just think you do (and you're wrong).

I already said I didn't think about it because I didn't really care what to call it.

It's not a glitch, it's not a bug. How many times must we say this? You are using the words "glitch", "bug" and "error" wrong and according to a fellow Austrian gamer, it is near inexscusable for a 20 yearold Austrian to not know what the English word "error" means.

I just said that I don't care what you want to call it.

No. You continously claiming this means you have no insight into Competitive gaming or Competitive Brawl. In the eyes of Competitive gaming, he does not. He has a tiny chance of the MK player is much, much worse of a player than he is and keeps screwing up over and over and over again.

Maybe I'm just too good so I can win with everyone against everyone.

But nobody cares about cases like that. We only care what happens when two people of roughly the same skill face each other at the highest level of play. And if that happens, CF is not going to win. It is an unwinnable match-up.

He still has a chance though.

You clearly have no insight into how Competitive gaming works or just fighting games in general if you think CF stands a chance... unless, of course, you mean a really, really good CF players vs. a really, really bad MK player, in which case it is irrelevant since they're not of roughly the equal skill and clearly not playing the game at the highest level.

Brawl =/= Melee. In Brawl there aren't any impossible matchups besides DK vs D3. Even if Captain Falcons chance to win is only 20 %... That's about 1 out of five times.
Theoretically, if both players play "perfectly", the Captain Falcon should never win, but nobody plays perfect. Thus he could still win.

And I already told you that we do not ban things for those reasons.

We can still try though.

Stop using words you do not know the meaning of.

Stop being such an arrogant *** plz

You cannot be a very good player if you do not know that Captain Falcon vs. Meta Knight is an unwinnable match-up. If you still do, you are clearly not playing this game at a very high level. And if you are the best player in Austria, well, the rest can't be very good, then.

I don't play Captain Falcon lol. His chance to win is really small, but it is still there.

No he couldn't.

CF win vs MK? Yes he could.

Nobody cares. We only care about people of roughly equal skill level at the highest levels of play. Nobody cares if the world's best CF can beat a mediocre MK.

There aren't 1000 people that are "the highest level of play". Maybe there are 10 or whatever. After them the level is a bit worse. Which means if a player is really good and one of the top 10, he might still be able to place well.

It has no bearing on Competitive play and its rules. And if we go far down enough, if we're just gonna assume that one side is really good while the other sucks, we could just throw the world's best DK vs. a really bad D3 and have the D3 keep messing the infinite up somehow and say that DK still stands a chance.

I still think the more skilled player should win and not a decent player that only knows how to infinite.

CF vs. MK is an unwinnable match-up. The longer you keep on arguing the opposite, the clearer it's going to be just how in the tank the Austrian Smash scene must be.

Me =/= every Austrian.

80-20 =/= Winnable

Then would does the 20 stand for? If a matchup is unwinnable it would be 100-0.

I never said they were the same. You are just strawmanning me/misreading me/hallucinating/in urgent need of English lessons.

I said that 80-20 is unwinnable.

That is not true.

I'll stop debating now though, because the only thing you're doing now is trying to discriminite me, and I don't feel like talking with such a person.

 

[Zankoku]

....it should take three times as long?
That's the logical answer right?

Guitar Hero songs get more complex as you raise the level, and take longer to learn/master accordingly. Doesn't the necessary technical ability and amount of time necessary to learn technique work the same?

You're spending more time to get a consistently better result. It's not the same at all.

Really,what is stopping them?
The only answers I can guess are they don't think it's worth the effort(which is a pretty uncompetitive attitude since it is), or they simply don't want to.

Well, first, it can only happen against a wall. Second, it's only really worth even thinking about on characters that fall to the Shine, like Fox and Falco, since otherwise you can just do the waveshine infinite, seeing as how the JC Shine infinite is happening so fast that it's actually possible to SDI out and escape.

If I confident enough to use the infinite in tourney settings, my chance of messing up the jc shine infinite wouldn't be 70% for one.

And here we have to take into consideration set factors:

• After my hand combusts(or just gets tired for realistic purposes) I will no longer be able to continue the infinite meaning I will only get 40% off.
  
• After succesfully landing a shine into tech/wakeup punish, I can follow up from 37% possibly even the jc shine to combustion, meaning it's value is much higher than just the jc shine to combustion option.

You can practice a lot, but spending hours to learn a situational wall combo that involves pressing two buttons in two frames every four frames (well, a little more than that due to hitlag) is never going to reach a high enough consistency to realistically deal more than around 40% (about 15 Shines, I think).

Melty Blood is love.<3

As far as this goes it comes down to two questions:

Is it humanly possible?
I believe yes since people do it in practice mode( I'm assuming intentionally, not by mistake or luck)

And is it worth the possible chance of messing up?
100 more damage sounds worth it to me. It may not to others.

Yeah, it's not even worth it to Japanese players, of which their average players have execution equal to many of the US's higher level players. Having a 1-frame window to link an attack followed by a 2-frame window to link the next one is stupid. Going for an extra 100 damage out of 11000 max life where messing up means 1800 less damage than normal is stupid. Trying to show off where the added risk far outweighs the potential reward in a game where the objective is to win, not to look cool, is stupid.

Seems in a lot of cases similar to this it may come down to play style.

Yeah, most players are practical and you're a ⑨. <3

I believe that in the sense of competitive spirit, If humanly possible it will be mastered.
Not everyone, but someone will.

If you could do it consistently, wouldn't you use it?

If they can use it consistently and aren't, they are not playing to win. It's as simple as that.

Have you seen Perfect Control and Perfect Control 2? Everything done in there is, technically, within the possible limits of the game. But nobody can keep up the dexterity required for a long enough time to actually make it count. There's a reason TAS usually beat out humanly-played speedruns.

Wobbling has been out for a while now too. Not every ice climber uses it because it's difficult.
IC mains know about it, some may practice and still not get it. Wobbles does though as well as a few other. It's the ability and desire to do these things other players can't that sets us all apart.

Wait, what? Wobbling is the easiest infinite the Ice Climbers have. You press A at a slightly fast rhythm. It's the technique being banned in a couple regions here and there that sets apart the ICs that do it or not.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ok seriously yuna and luigi player need to take their walls of test to PMs at this point because the length of this page alone is rediculous...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Luigi_Player stop being so cocky. Being the best in Austria (or Germany) means nothing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

means hes better than you ...

loloololololool

 

[~ Gheb ~]

means hes better than you ...

means nothing

 

[da K.I.D.]

i know, im just messing with you.

 

[gr8ape]

anyone else notice yuna put the names of his characters up to tertiary (lol?) using their japanese, i think, (lol???) names

 

[Brinzy]

anyone else notice yuna put the names of his characters up to tertiary (lol?) using their japanese, i think, (lol???) names

Anyone else notice that nobody ****ing cares?

 

[Yuna]

It is alltoghether what makes it ban-worhty (in my eyes).
It is a skill less infinite that makes some characters unviable.

But you went on and on and on about how it was a glitch/bug/error/programmer oversight as if it matters. You were trying to argue that this was a reason to ban it.

It is not in any way a reason to ban it, even if grouped together with other reasons. Whether it is a programmer's oversight, error, bug or glitch does not make it any more or less bannable.

It is one of the reasons why it isn't problematic to ban it.

No, it is not. No one with insight into Competitive gaming would argue that it does. It does not.

Eh, I don't care anymore.

You claim to have proof of your prowess and to be willing to show them to me. I wanna see it. All a sudden you don't care about showing me these results? Not that I really care.

It explains nothing.

No, really, it explains how you could become the best player in Austria. Obviously, everyone good at Melee in Austria just stuck with Melee instead of moving over to Brawl.

As you see they do.

Maybe they do in Austria. Worldwide? No. We've already established that the Australian Smash scene is a bit different from other scenes.

He was first a long time on the online ladder and only one could beat him (and it was a lucky win). The only ones who can beat Serpit are reaper and me. Some others might also be able to every now and then, but Serpit still wins the majority.

So all we have are you, Serpit and Reaper going at it, fighting for the top spot. This really tells me nothing as you are all random players I have never heard of and who have never made it big at any international tournament that I know of.

I'm just saying, maybe Germany and Austria aren't that good at Smash. Being the best in Austria and "2nd best in Germany" (despite this being impossible for you specifically since you do not live in Germany) might not mean that much if you get creamed when facing the British, the Swedes or the Dutch.

I already beat him.

Beating him once or twice =/= You are better than him

Because I was really angry and always made mistakes (SDs, pressed the wrong button etc.).

Johns.

So I didn't care anymore and just chose Meta Knight, and this was the first time I ever used him in a "real" fight.

So, in a very important match against your most challenging opponent, you just went with Meta Knight despite having very little training with him, thinking that just because he's Meta Knight, you'd win? Smart.

Just because you don't like me because you're an ignorant *** doesn't mean it is bad for Austria.

The only thing I'm ignorant of (I suggest you look that word up, BTW, you have a habit of using words you do not know the real meaning of) is the Austrian Smash scene.

If you can't think 1/2 second ahead I feel sorry for you.

It does not matter if you can think ahead if the game lags you so that when you press the buttons, the moves do not come out 'til 1/2 second later, thus screwing up your timing, thus screwing up your chaingrab.

I already said there is no lag, only a bit delay.

Yes, I'm sure you never experience any lag whatsoever.

Oh, you're right. That was I mistake.

It was quoted in the post you replied to claiming to never have said it! At least when I say you said something, read the quote I'm replying to to make sure you didn't say it!

Just because you suck doesn't mean anyone else can't win really hard matchups.

I'd like to see you win an 80-20 match-up at the highest level of play against someone of equal skill. It is an unwinnable match-up.

I already said I didn't think about it because I didn't really care what to call it.

I just said that I don't care what you want to call it.

So you didn't think three times? Because you went from glitch to bug to error.

Maybe I'm just too good so I can win with everyone against everyone.

He still has a chance though.

So does DK if you're just going to assume that the D3 player will suck and make frequent huge mistakes. No, he does not. For all intents and purposes, it is an unwinnable match-up.

Brawl =/= Melee. In Brawl there aren't any impossible matchups besides DK vs D3.

Oh really, why is that? What amkes Brawl so different that there are no impossible match-ups besides DK vs. D3?

Even if Captain Falcons chance to win is only 20 %... That's about 1 out of five times.

No, that's not how match-up ratios work. That means that for every match played, CF stands a 20% chance of winning. It does not stack up.

He does not win 1 out of every 5 matches. In every single one of those 5 matches, his chances are only 20% vs. MK's 80%. And even if CF won one out of every 5 matches, it does not matter. In Smash, it does not matter if you can win one out of every 5 matches since you have to win entire sets to advance.

Still doesn't change the fact that match-ups do not work that way. 80-20 does not mean 1 out of every 5 matches. It means 20% in every single match you play. For every match you play, you have only a 20% probability of winning when facing MK as CF.

It does not stack up. It does not magically become 40% in the 2nd match or 60% in the third. It does not mean you're probably going to win every 5th match. It means only a 20% chance of winning, period.

Theoretically, if both players play "perfectly", the Captain Falcon should never win, but nobody plays perfect. Thus he could still win.

The problem is that MK would have to be tons more imperfect than CF to lose. Tons. He'd literally have to screw up at least 5 times as many times as CF or something to lose. That does not happen between people of equal skill playing at the highest level.

We can still try though.

Why? Insanity is trying something over and over again hoping for a different result.

Stop being such an arrogant *** plz

Calling you out on using words you do not know the true meaning of is arrogant? See, there you go away, using yet another word in the wrong context.

You just accused me of "over-centralizing". What does that even mean (in this context)? What did you mean by that? Of course you were using it wrong. It's not arrogance to point it out. It was condescending.

I don't play Captain Falcon lol.

I never said this. Stop hallucinating up half of my posts.

His chance to win is really small, but it is still there.

No, it is an unwinnable match-up.

CF win vs MK? Yes he could.

Stop arguing this.

There aren't 1000 people that are "the highest level of play". Maybe there are 10 or whatever.

10? No. Many more.

And when concerning banning and match-ups and what is impossible or not, we only care about the people who play at the highest level of play.

After them the level is a bit worse. Which means if a player is really good and one of the top 10, he might still be able to place well.

Against worse players (if he's wielding CF, that is).

I still think the more skilled player should win and not a decent player that only knows how to infinite.

It is not about who has the most skill. If you want it to always come down to who has the most "skill", ban everyone but CF because then it'll be about who has the most skill and not who picked the character with the better match-up, ever.

Me =/= every Austrian.

You cannot be a very good player if you think CF vs. MK is winnable. You just cannot since in order to believe that, you'd have to actually play at a level where that is possible. And if you're at such a level, then I really feel sorry for the Austrian Brawl scene.

Then would does the 20 stand for? If a matchup is unwinnable it would be 100-0.

No, a match-up does not have to be 100-0 to be unwinnable. For all intents and purposes, 80-20 is unwinnable. 100-0 is just much harder to win. If we're gonna argue that it's possible to win if MK is just much worse than CF and keeps screwing up, then we can argue that D3 will screw up the infinite, be bad as D3 and not be able to land grabs well and, consequently, lose to the best DK in the world (arguably Bum).

I'll stop debating now though, because the only thing you're doing now is trying to discriminite me, and I don't feel like talking with such a person.

"Discriminate" you? Again, stop using words you do not know the meaning of, please. It's like every time you try to use a multi-syllabic "big word", you get it wrong.

Over-centralizing, arrogant, discriminate, what's next?

I'd be much less condescending if you stopped arguing CF vs. MK is winnable using blatantly faulty logic. No, CF does not magically win 1 out of every 5 matches against MK.

 

[Zankoku]

Yes he does. He's Captain ****ing Falcon. Even if the victory screen says Meta Knight, we all know who really won.

 

[Deleted member]

He asked for "concrete information", not "concrete objective evidence".

We are on the internet, a common medium of information transfer. If you are asking for information, so long as it is truthful, they are one and the same.

Choose your words more carefully.

 

[gantrain05]

who the hell could ever think that falcon vs MK is winnable? and why is that even being brought up in this debate? first of all falcon vs MK is LESS winnable than DK vs DDD, DK actually does have a chance in that fight, he's got speed, he's got priority, he's got power, his spacing game is better than many characters, probably in the top half, im sorry but i play DK as one of my counterpicks, and i have beaten DDD's that know the infinite, its not IMPOSSIBLE, its IMPROBABLE, but definatly not even close to unwinnable. so please god, stop arguing this point lol.

 

[platomaker]

few characters suffer from it? well, doesn't that put them at an unfair advantage? personally I would Ban it, but I still think it shouldn't be banned. Banning that portion of the game is like banning Metaknight or Smash balls.

 

[Yuna]

who the hell could ever think that falcon vs MK is winnable?

Evidently, Luigi Player, supposedly the best Brawl player in Austria, possibly one of the best in all of Europe!

and why is that even being brought up in this debate? first of all falcon vs MK is LESS winnable than DK vs DDD, DK actually does have a chance in that fight, he's got speed, he's got priority, he's got power, his spacing game is better than many characters, probably in the top half, im sorry but i play DK as one of my counterpicks, and i have beaten DDD's that know the infinite, its not IMPOSSIBLE, its IMPROBABLE, but definatly not even close to unwinnable.

This, however, I cannot agree with. Still, MK vs. CF is unwinnable match-up (just less so than DK vs. D3).

Banning that portion of the game is like banning Metaknight or Smash balls.

Smash Balls were banned for perfectly legit reasons, one of them being over-centralization around not only certain characters but also around a certain tactic we felt was "too good". The entire metagame would revolve mostly not only around who had the best Final Smashes but also around Final Smashes themselves.

Why fight tooth and nail to rack up 120% only to see yourself at KO:ed at 0% if you can just go for Marth or Falco, who both win very well without Final Smashes and who are absolutely unstoppable with them? The game would revolve around a select few characters and their Final Smashes.

Not acceptable.

 

[RDK]

who the hell could ever think that falcon vs MK is winnable? and why is that even being brought up in this debate? first of all falcon vs MK is LESS winnable than DK vs DDD, DK actually does have a chance in that fight, he's got speed, he's got priority, he's got power, his spacing game is better than many characters, probably in the top half, im sorry but i play DK as one of my counterpicks, and i have beaten DDD's that know the infinite, its not IMPOSSIBLE, its IMPROBABLE, but definatly not even close to unwinnable. so please god, stop arguing this point lol.

Evidently, Luigi Player, supposedly the best Brawl player in Austria, possibly one of the best in all of Europe!


This, however, I cannot agree with. Still, MK vs. CF is unwinnable match-up (just less so than DK vs. D3).

You guys are feeding into their ridiculous misinformed opinions.

Yes, for all intents and purposes in high-level play, DK vs. D3 and MK vs. Falcon are unwinnable. But the matchups themselves are not 100%, virtually impossible.

That's even worse than if you unplugged the other guy's controller, because you could still beat him to the SD. He would have to automatically lose at the beginning of every match for it to be literally unwinnable.

 

[Yuna]

Yes, for all intents and purposes in high-level play, DK vs. D3 and MK vs. Falcon are unwinnable. But the matchups themselves are not 100%, virtually impossible.

Did I ever say that? Or anything even close to it? Did I or did I not argue that they are unwinnable, but, that the chance of victory is never 0% at the same time?

It's called multi-tasking (kinda). I'm awesome like that.

I believe the progression of events went like this:
Luigi Player: D3 vs. DK is unwinnable!
Someone: So is MK vs. CF.
Luigi Player: MK vs. CF is sooooo winnable.
Me: Say whaaaa? It is sooooo unwinnable!
Luigi Player: No, there's always a chance!
Me: Yeah, if the CF is good enough and the MK is bad enough. That's the same thing as saying there's always a chance the D3 will just keep screwing up and sucking while the DK is the one of the best DKs in the world. There's always a chance. But for all intents and purposes, they are both unwinnable match-ups!
Luigi Player: No! Because I say so! 80-20 means 1 out of every 5 matches will be won by CF.
Logic: Like hell it does!
Competitive gaming match-ups: Like hell it does!
Me: My tuchas it does!

 

[RDK]

Did I ever say that? Or anything even close to it? Did I or did I not argue that they are unwinnable, but, that the chance of victory is never 0% at the same time?

It's called multi-tasking (kinda). I'm awesome like that.

I believe the progression of events went like this:
Luigi Player: D3 vs. DK is unwinnable!
Someone: So is MK vs. CF.
Luigi Player: MK vs. CF is sooooo winnable.
Me: Say whaaaa? It is sooooo unwinnable!
Luigi Player: No, there's always a chance!
Me: Yeah, if the CF is good enough and the MK is bad enough. That's the same thing as saying there's always a chance the D3 will just keep screwing up and sucking while the DK is the one of the best DKs in the world. There's always a chance. But for all intents and purposes, they are both unwinnable match-ups!
Luigi Player: No! Because I say so! 80-20 means 1 out of every 5 matches will be won by CF.
Logic: Like hell it does!
Competitive gaming match-ups: Like hell it does!
Me: My tuchas it does!

This is exactly why I always regret continuing these discussions.

See what stupidity does to perfectly sound minds? Their idiotic wiles have turned us against each other.

 

[Brinzy]

We are on the internet, a common medium of information transfer. If you are asking for information, so long as it is truthful, they are one and the same.

Choose your words more carefully.

All I wanted from him was to state his position, to state his argument, and to state his facts. Overall, that is the information I wanted from him. I don't see why it's impossible for him to tell me exactly what he's thinking.