Shoot First, Ask Questions Later: The Samus Tactical Discussion & Q&A Thread

[theeboredone]

Hmm...so it seems you guys are discussing Ike. I was actually wondering, what would be the ideal neutral stage to play a Samus on. And what are Samus' best CPs? Worst?

 

[Cherry64]

for ike, I'd Yoshi's island or smashville, depending on which stage the ike does better on. Best would prolly be final D, it gives samus so many strats to use, we can camp, go grab happy, melee or do combinations of those. Worst would be japes, other CP's would prolly include yoshi's island, and for this MU alone, I'd say delfino, just because ikes generally do good there :S

 

[IsmaR]

As Ike, ideal neutral would be BF against Samus. From what I can tell, FD would be the worst, SV and Yoshi's not being much in either's favor(depends on how you play). As Samus, I hate Japes and RC for CPs, but Ike doesn't do so well on either...either. lol. Try Castle Siege, or any stage with a low ceiling if you are feeling ballsy/U-Smash/air/tilt happy.

/loves telling people how to beat us.

 

[NO-IDea]

/loves telling people how to beat us.

I was unaware that Ike had any significant advantage in the match-up. They're counter picking probably because we won the first match, and more than likely we'll win the set. XD

On a side note, your font ***** my eyes at 3 in the morning. Quite the epiphany.

 

[Cherry64]

I was unaware that Ike had any significant advantage in the match-up. They're counter picking probably because we won the first match, and more than likely we'll win the set. XD

On a side note, your font ***** my eyes at 3 in the morning. Quite the epiphany.

lol. concieded much? it's true samus beats ike 60-40 but if the stage is wonky and we can't use z air well, he can approach, and when he does **** goes sideways, that's why we said the stages we did, if you don't care to contribute don't comment

 

[NO-IDea]

lol. concieded much? it's true samus beats ike 60-40 but if the stage is wonky and we can't use z air well, he can approach, and when he does **** goes sideways, that's why we said the stages we did, if you don't care to contribute don't comment

Conceited? Just stating the obvious. The "Samus will win the set" comment is just basing it off match-up ratios.

As for the counterpick stages stated previously, I agree? I was merely commenting on Ismar's post... yeesh.

 

[Xyro77]

IMO its 65-35 or even 70-30 in samus favor. ike is just too horrible to beat a good samus.

japes, pkmn stadium, FD, frigate, SV.........all of those **** ike.

bf and yoshis hurt samus more than ike but samus should still win.

Halbert/delphino/pirate ship are absolute HELL holes for samus and ike should always win there.

 

[NO-IDea]

Halbert/delphino/pirate ship are absolute HELL holes for samus and ike should always win there.

Agree with everything but Delfino. I find the walk-offs a good place to camp since f-air can be shield grabbed, and n-air approaches can just be OoS up+B. The ceiling isn't significantly low enough to make Ike's kill moves as deadly as say Halberd, or the recovery issue isn't relieved as much as it is on, say, Pirate Ship.

 

[Xyro77]

I see alot of ike CP it and never see samus CP it. Theres something on there they like.

 

[KillerJawz]

Since Ike's recovery is **** poor, delphino's constant changes allow ike to go off stage safely and land perhaps on a grassy pillar. Since our recovery allows us to stall/ play off stage for a bit, its more beneficial to Ike to play here. Samus should definatly avoid Castle Siege under ANY circumstances, I've played on this stage so much it's not helpful to her.

 

[Crystanium]

Ike? Castle Siege? Please take this to the stage section. I believe the discussion is about Castle Siege.

 

[theeboredone]

Wish the matches between Xyro and me woulda gone recorded. It showed what Ike can do.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

I've been reading/ lurking a lot of the threads and stickies and came upon "lingering hitboxes" from fair and usmash (?). What exactly are these lingering hitboxes and they are good for punishing spot dodges?

 

[KillerJawz]

I've been reading/ lurking a lot of the threads and stickies and came upon "lingering hitboxes" from fair and usmash (?). What exactly are these lingering hitboxes and they are good for punishing spot dodges?

Ok im going to use Lucarios uair as an example for this.

When Lucario performs his uair (at max aura) the hitbox of the move will stay out for longer then the animation for the move, this causes a somewhat "invisible" hitbox to stay there for a long period of time. They are BEAUTIFUL for punishing spotdodges, honestly they eat them hard.

 

[Ravin]

Why does everyone complain about Samus being Spammy when you can press A to kill all of her projectiles and not waste your shield?

I was just thinking about that while Raiding on WoW today. Thought id share.. (Dont go ZOMG its not that easy. Yes, it really is that easy. Just don't be stupid about the Zair.)

 

[Crystanium]

Why does everyone complain about Samus being Spammy when you can press A to kill all of her projectiles and not waste your shield?

I was just thinking about that while Raiding on WoW today. Thought id share.. (Dont go ZOMG its not that easy. Yes, it really is that easy. Just don't be stupid about the Zair.)

It doesn't make Samus any less spammy if you stop the projectiles by hitting them. And besides, I think people would rather try to play it safe and take no chances of getting hit. That's why they use their shield instead.

 

[Ravin]

And then let their shield get eaten? A lot of Samus's ive seen on these forums play... "Spam missles till they approach then use Zair." Not, "Aggressive missile and use Zair to approach them until you can get an opening."

Just saying people have other options and should explore them to exploit Samus's game, and more of her game needs to be looked at then camping or playing keep away. She has an amazing aggressive playstyle that only certain players take advantage of, and its worth exploring then completely being disregarded everytime and told she sucks.

This includes looking at her advantages and disadvantages, even if its out of her normal "Playstyle." No charater has a way they should be played. Not many people mix it up and I don't know how many "Mains" ive played on these boards and they try to give matchup information when they don't know much about the charaters at all.

Thats my input. Time to lurk for a long long time again and watch people act like they know what they talk about, when only a handful know whats going on.

 

[Xyro77]

I know whats going.

 

[NO-IDea]

I agree with everything said, but am curious as to what you mean by this quote.

A lot of Samus's ive seen on these forums play... "Spam missles till they approach then use Zair." Not, "Aggressive missile and use Zair to approach them until you can get an opening."

What is aggressive missiling? Honestly speaking. If you're going to play Samus aggressively, wouldn't you forgo missile canceling altogether and just stick to z-air until you find an opening? Because missiles aren't aggressive in my standard. It's a form of control to limit options because it forces a response. If you call that aggressive, fine.

But then wouldn't mean spamming=aggressive? Because every missile fired forces a response (shielding/jumping over/dodging.)

Which then means:

"Aggressive missile and use z-air" = Spam missile and z-air at mid-range until either creates an opening

Are they not one and the same? Spamming missiles doesn't necessarily mean camping, it means spacing yourself with missiles. Z-air use is an obvious for any Samus player. But learning to balance the two is a problem I tend to see.

As to why people shield? Because Samus follows missile cancel up with z-air often, so your idea of pressing A to stop the missile fails to clank with z-air's transcending priority.

I find error in how you find spam not being aggressive. Your terminology, not your concept. I agree with your ideas.

Unless you're thinking of "Spam missiles at a distance and not approach." Then fine, I agree with you to a certain extent, because it differs upon MU. I will totally outcamp a ROB and force them to approach than the inverse.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

I think a lot of characters have an overused spam move. Snakes love to have grenades out and camp with them. It puts pressure and just having it on the field is enough to limit the opponent. I feel like missles are samus' equivalent, they might not kill, but lingering homing missles limit the opponent and put some mental pressure. And I'm not acting like I know what I'm talking about, but that's what I think when I use FH double missles

 

[NO-IDea]

Thank you for supporting me. Your use of FH double missiles I HIGHLY question though. lol

 

[Darkshadow7827]

Thank you for supporting me. Your use of FH double missiles I HIGHLY question though. lol

How should I use them? I'm opened to new ideas and, more importantly, stopping any bad habits before they form, haha.

Edit: Momentum cancel with Uair to bomb/double jump. I better stop zairing to momentum cancel.

 

[NO-IDea]

Well, rather than tell you how to play, how about you explain to me why you think FH double missile works?

EDIT: In response to your edit, GOOD! Air dodging does nothing to momentum canceling, and you can't fast fall z-air. And all that note, most of the time, just fast falling u-air is enough to save Samus since she's a heavyweight.

Double jumping only cancels momentum by a small amount. This is because you regain all momentum canceled from fast falling. So be wary in your decision as to whether or not you really do need to double jump.

 

[Crystanium]

And then let their shield get eaten?

That's what happens, unless you're fighting someone like Meta Knight, Falco, or Marth. You could try to air-dodge, I guess. As for the rest of your rant, I won't bother.

 

[Xyro77]

Full hop super missles has its uses, though its mega rare.

IMO the more weird you play the higher the chance the foe will fall for it which in turn can lead to early KOs/percent gains. if you notice, my samus is not flashy at all. just common sense stuff+ weird things. Those weird things save my ***.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

When I FH double missle, people usually just either sit letting me zone them and slowly eating their shield, sometimes they try to hop over the first one where I try to zair them if they do, and if they sh airdodge, i try to dash grab them while they land. They usually get more wary afterwards though. I'm not sure if it's just the fact that the people I play don't know what to do against samus.

Edit: Which samus are you (NO-IDea) are you under the video thread?

 

[NO-IDea]

Ah. I don't post videos here because I have no recording equipment. Not to mention not a big fan of posting videos where I'm outright winning/losing (most of the videos in the Celestial Archives are rather skewed matches... or wi-fi, save for a few.) Likewise, I usually will not bother watching/critiquing a match under three minutes save for few exceptions. This is Brawl, not Melee. An under three minute match means something stupid happened.

If you'd like to see my gameplay, post a VM on my wall and we can exchange wii/FC codes. I have footage for almost all MUs, and can probably get footage of a particular MU if you request it, and if I have permission to allow you to see it (some players don't like their videos to be shared.)

As for answering my question, my next question(s) to you is:

A) Is their response the right response to your FH double missile? (Yes/No, why)
B) Are there better options for you to accomplish what your FH double missile does? (If no, continue what you're doing, if yes, tell me)

If you answer these questions by yourself, you can eliminate most of your superfluous habits. Or maybe they're not even superfluous. If it's working, continue at it. But make sure you acknowledge why it's working (difference in skill level? particular character MU? your timing/spacing? perhaps you've played your opponent for so long you're too experienced with his style?)

 

[Crystanium]

An under three minute match means something stupid happened.

So much for my videos against IsmaR, n00b, and Legan. -_-

 

[NO-IDea]

So much for my videos against IsmaR, n00b, and Legan. -_-

Likewise, I usually will not bother watching/critiquing a match under three minutes save for few exceptions.

I do make exceptions. Rarely. But I can't ever see a legitimate Brawl match going under three minutes, with both players being good at DI and the skill levels between the two being equal. Which is why there's always the possibility of stupidity infecting the match. Or choking. Or lag. Etc.

Even Samus v. MK. If the match is legit, it usually goes beyond three minutes.

 

[KillerJawz]

I do make exceptions. Rarely. But I can't ever see a legitimate Brawl match going past three minutes, with both players being good at DI and the skill levels between the two being equal. Which is why there's always the possibility of stupidity infecting the match. Or choking. Or lag. Etc.

Even Samus v. MK. If the match is legit, it usually goes beyond three minutes.

We had some pretty legitmate matches under.... *Lylat Cruise*.... nvm.....

Either way, it really does depend on how aggressive/smart a person will decide to play, its not just on the matchup, I made a Yoshi v Ness match last over 7 minutes, then played another straight after and it lasted 2:30 x.x

 

[Darkshadow7827]

A) Is their response the right response to your FH double missile? (Yes/No, why)
B) Are there better options for you to accomplish what your FH double missile does? (If no, continue what you're doing, if yes, tell me)

If you answer these questions by yourself, you can eliminate most of your superfluous habits. Or maybe they're not even superfluous. If it's working, continue at it. But make sure you acknowledge why it's working (difference in skill level? particular character MU? your timing/spacing? perhaps you've played your opponent for so long you're too experienced with his style?)

A) I don't think their response is right, since there time to close the spacing and they could just powershield the missiles.

B) Ummm. Maybe I could occasionally just SH single and space with zair more. Against my inexperienced friends the FH works, but I guess I should stop making it a habit so I don't use it too much against more experienced players.

Also, you bring a good point. I have played one of my friends for too long, so I think I'm too used to his play style. It's interesting how you make me answer my own questions to learn about what I should change rather than tell me how to play. You make me think about my other habits when I use snake... hmmm....

 

[Crystanium]

I do make exceptions. Rarely. But I can't ever see a legitimate Brawl match going under three minutes, with both players being good at DI and the skill levels between the two being equal. Which is why there's always the possibility of stupidity infecting the match. Or choking. Or lag. Etc.

Even Samus v. MK. If the match is legit, it usually goes beyond three minutes.

No SDs were involved. And Legan is a pro Link main. The one I saved where I brawled with Legan recently has a cool ending, which is why I kept it. I use b-air and he uses d-air, and we both hit each other. I get one of those KOs where you land in front of the screen, and Legan flew off to the right. It was too good. The ones I have with n00b aren't because of SDs, let alone lag. And I doubt we both choked or whatever.

 

[NO-IDea]

Like I said, there are exceptions. It could be like what KillerJawz said earlier, both sides were very aggressive.

 

[LanceStern]

Falco has a lot of options out of his jab, particularly now that people are buffering everything. One combo I've fallen into is a single jab from Falco -> DACUS that hits me with both the dash attack and upsmash.

Is there a way to SDI out of that jab? Cause it gives me a lot of stun. Or is it just not possible to react that fast?

 

[Thunda-Moo]

Huurrgh...

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere but I got a weird error when I used the search engine.

Sometimes, when I try to Zair, (by pressing Z on a Gamecube controller, naturally) I air dodge instead. I figured the Samus boards would know all about this. How do I ensure that I don't fail at Zairing like the fool that I am?

I'm also guessing that this same thing would be why I sometimes sheild when I want to grab with Z, especally when chain grab releacing.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Rhyme]

If you're going to play Samus aggressively, wouldn't you forgo missile canceling altogether and just stick to z-air until you find an opening?

Not necessarily. Use homing missiles/CS to trap your opponent, then guess if they will avoid with airdodge/jump or decide to take the damage. Projectiles used as combo-starters or deterrents are very different than projectiles meant to impede a character's approach. =/

just common sense stuff+ weird things. Those weird things save my ***.

This is all I do with Kirby, and that's precisely why I will never beat a Snake with him. Kirby needs gimmicks to beat Snake. : (

 

[NO-IDea]

Not necessarily. Use homing missiles/CS to trap your opponent, then guess if they will avoid with airdodge/jump or decide to take the damage. Projectiles used as combo-starters or deterrents are very different than projectiles meant to impede a character's approach. =/

It was a rhetorical question. It served my argument the further along you read. xD

@Thunda-Moo: It's Brawl's buffering system that makes you air dodge instead of grab. Remember that the Z/Grab function is essentially a buffered input of R+Attack, therefore, you'll find yourself often air dodging after performing an aerial if you were trying to z-air instead.

Solution? If you really want to have precise timing with stringing aerials to z-air, be sure to either press Z twice, or use the L/R+A combination to perform z-air. Otherwise, you may accidentally air dodge.

Here is something rather interesting Rohins brought up in a very secret place: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=37410

 

[IsmaR]

Dang all you nubs with the GC controllers. The only command I can understand is Z-air.

 

[Thunda-Moo]

I figured it was buffering. How does double-tapping Z help? That sounds too simple to be true.

 

[NO-IDea]

I figured it was buffering. How does double-tapping Z help? That sounds too simple to be true.

Remember Z/Grab is essentially R+A. Double tapping buffers in an attack input, so, as you're air dodging, it won't read the shield and go straight into reading the attack input. Voila, z-air.

Likewise, an easy way to buffer a spot dodge from z-air would be to press and hold Z, and then press down as you land. If you were to hold Z, you would normally shield, and pressing down would make the necessary pattern for a spot dodge input.