Sheikah Training: Know Your Surroundings Sheik Stage Discussion~Lylat Cruise

[Dcold]

Sheik Stage discussion thread, i got the idea from the Dedede Boards. Basically you guys know how it goes, let's start it off with Final Destination. Discuss how good the stage is for Sheik, who to CounterPick there, who to Strike the stage against, and who to Ban that stage against. Include why we should do those things. Be very specific and not a general characterization of characters. Ex: CP anyone who can't do ________ to [stage]. Instead do this: CP Mario, Luigi, Peach to this tsage. Strike against Bowser, and Ban this against Dedede. Stages will be rated by how many

's it gets
.

Final Destination
Rating:

Here is my opinion:

FD is great for DACUS. There is nothing that the foe can get on.

FD is great for GR because there are no platforms in the way.

FD is wonderful for juggling because there are no platforms to get into the way.

FD helps for Needle camping/spamming since there is no alternative root to getting to Sheik.

The lip under FD can be wall bounced off of and it helps to duck down under there sometimes on certain match ups.

Other than being a good stage to camp people on, I really don't see any specific advantages it gives Sheik other than spacing.

Bans:
Don't even have to explain this one. Ice Climbers are an obvious problem for Sheik ESPECIALLY on this stage. We can try to needle camp them, but ice blocks destroy that idea. There is no where you can run from the CG. No platforms for you to run away with. No where you can run back to after you get a hit in. Horrible idea to even consider leaving this stage un-banned.

Strike:

Sheik really needs room to maneuver and run away against Diddy, since actually fighting him when he's got bananas is a really bad idea. While she can camp him with needles, Sheik is left with relatively few options when Diddy finally makes it up close and Sheik needs a quick exit.

Counter-Picks: This is basically the place you take characters that you are worse against on BF.

Marth has a better advantage off of his platform game than Sheik does, so eliminating them altogether will lessen his options in the matchup.

Marth without platforms is better for you. You can even needle camp him here since he has no projectile, and if he approaches punish him once you get inside his range of tipper. Go to work on him, then restart the needle camp.

Sheik can grab release Wario on a whole lot of stages, but Final Destination makes it a threat from anywhere.

[**** Ankoku basically covered this whole thing lol.] Keep Wario off of BF! You will have amazing trouble dealing with him there. Here, you can try to needle camp him, but really all you have to do [easier said than done] is get him to a high enough % where a FRESH [to make it easier] Grab Release -> UpSmash WILL KILL. On FD you don't have to worry about a platform stopping him midway in his release. Take him here.

Taking Snake here isn't a bad option either. You outcamp Snake on this stage imo at a distance Sheik has no problem avoiding grenades and if you're forcing Snake to approach that matchup becomes so much easier for Sheik. He can't control platforms or strategic areas like he can on all the other neutrals and you always can just simply run away from him lol.

You can camp here once again. Enough room to get away from nades thrown at you. Good for juggling snake here. Not a bad Snake stage, i'd just say it is more advantageous for us.

Yes! The one people really care about. But don't get too happy. Every [unless they don't care] MK bans FD. But if you're lucky and they don't. Here's what yer do.

Sheik can grab release Wario on a whole lot of stages, but Final Destination makes it a threat from anywhere.
Same with Meta Knight. Don't CP this for grab releases on him unless you have the DACUS down, though.

If you can PERFECT GRUST [That's my word], you have a kill by 80% which is roughly Full needles, couple jabs, Ftilt lock -> upTILT, then an Ftilt to dsmash. Grab him, do a pummel to make sure then boom. *Can be DIed* But is a definate kill by 100% so if you get him there, you're golden.

Other Characters considerable:
,[Preference],[Lip], , and

Yoshi's Island [SSBB]


Rating:

Yoshi's island. Ledge drop > stick to wall > come up with a bair when time is right xD

YI can be a good stage for Sheik if used properly.
I like to go by the analogy that Sheik doesn't have a bad stage. Stages will both limit one option, but increase the effectiveness of another option.
YI can limit GR. It can however, make f-tilt lock more effective, give us a sliding DSmash, good wall jump and cling options and allow us to use duck more effectively.
Because of the floors unevenness you can actually lower yourself when you duck more than usual. This allows you to duck under most jab (most people's panic attacks), some f-tilt and maybe a few FSmash's.
You can also use the far right edge to send Sheik sliding by performing a duck dash.
To add to how good the slopes are for Sheik you have to look at what allows people to escape the f-tilt lock. The answer to that is by going up or down. Since you can increase the amount of down here you can possibly extend the f-tilt lock.
Last but not least, this helps Sheiks ledge stalling/planking with Bair. You can also do a kind of wall stall by clinging far below the stage.

I hate this stage because of the stupid recovery deaths amongst other things.

Bans:

Ban against
(mess's up your GR options)

Strikes:

STRIKE (and possibly ban) THIS AGAINST DK! If you're playing dk on this stage, you're doing it wrong.

Generally I don't like this stage as sheik. I find it easier to run away on FD, BF (because of platforms), and Smashville for camping and I find BF a better place to deal with someone who out camps me. I pretty much always strike this or lylat first.

DK can do some stupid stuff with his up b where he's invincible or some dumb stuff like that.

I don't think an explanation is needed for this one. Self Explanatory, it's Lucario.

Counter Picks:

.......but i've found that Pit's recovery is pretty easy to handle on this stage since he can't go underneath and play his stupid mindgames. Shy Guys also get in the way of his arrows and stuff. Put this down as a maybe against Pit? what do you guys think?

Counter against
It can mess up either their CG's, camping or spacing game.

I guess if you ever play a Ness or Ganondorf in tournament, you can counter pick this stage.

Rating:

BF is an awesome stage to bait with. Platforms serve us rather well because we can punish decently no matter the percentage.Dashing charge needles off the left/right platforms can set up for edge guard opportunities if the opponent if further out.

BF is by far my favorite stage in the game. Sheik does really well here imo because her pressure game excels when she has platforms to work with and not only are there platforms on this stage, There's 3 of them and they don't move lol.

Make sure the majority of the time you use utilt to pressure from beneath instead of uair or another aerial since it's a lot safer.

Love playing MK on this stage, easier to recover for whatever reason. I beat ROB here more than any other stage, like it against Diddy, Falco.


Don't like it against Marth, Olimar, or DDD.

You can grab release wario into aerials on BF regardless of where you are in relation to a platform.

I remember using this stage as a CP against Sonic because you can chain camp him hard should you get a nice lead.

On that note, I'm awful with the chain lol.

Also, against MK you have to me careful with platform pressure because shuttle loop will hit you and will kill you at killing time.

LOL dang i got baited.

generally i like battlefield to fight characters that i want to get close by. if the character is stronger at a close range fight and i wanna get away, i like smashville.

You can do the neat B-reversed needles on the platforms to change your momentum and generally be more mobile.

Other than that, I think everything has been said as far as what Sheik can do on this stage.

As far as who to ban and what not, my personal Ban is on Marth for this stage just because he can utilize it better than us. Out of personal preference for sure. Honestly aside from my personal ban on Marth, I wouldn't ban this stage against anyone.

Bans:

He uses the platforms much better than us, and is his best/bread and butter stage. Unless you feel extremely comfortable with this MU and with this stage (as you should be) I'd advise against fighting Marth here.

Counter-Picks: Battlefield is a preference stage, whoever you feel comfortable against, you can take here. With the only exception being :Marth: . Like with some neutrals it's just a matter of where you feel comfortable.

Rating: - The definition of an average stage. There are no real CPs here, it is a preference stage.

mindset...
Smashville is a mixture of Battlefield and Final Destination. You should try to force them into the air and onto the platform. If you bait an attack or watch them carefully you can pull of extensive juggles. Dash Attack, f-tilt, d-throw, f-throw and b-throw all put them into the air.

control!
Sheik should try and control the area around the moving platform.

tricks!
Unlike Battlefield the platform at Smashville does not set up for your tipper USmash.
You have your GR options as long as the platform does not get in the way.
When Squirtle is grab released he always goes under the platform.
People die earlier to f-tilt> USmash when you are on the platform.
The platform gives you Vanish and Needle Glide options.
You can platform cancel onto the moving platform..

This is the worst stage in the game, idk how u guys can like i see nothing good about it.

Vs Snake he gets more stage control from C4, vs MK he gets a chance at escaping GR dacus by waitig for the platform, and at really high percents its practically a guaranteed escape, not to mention it significantly helps him in gimping us off stage do to being able to to normally unsafe attempts at SL safe or landing trap us into a d-smash. Diddy is as annoying here as everywhere else. Falco gets a situation platform to escape too but its less significant than battlefield I guess. TL can air camp us better here, same with sonic having more places he can run to and charge spindashes safely. ICs as mentioned before have platform cancel grab frame traps.

all in all I also find it too plain with not enough we can take advantage of against other characters in general, but it has elements that other people can use against us, that we can;t as effectively us against them. So at best i consider it a +0 stage boost, while everyone else gets +0 or more on this stae against us.



EDIT: **** zinoto

Strikes:
Snake has so much control on this stage, and the moving platform aids his C4 and grenade techniques. As a small stage, we really can't get away from him, and his stage control is really intimidating.

~DISCUSS~

 

[Dcold]

Let's start with Final Destination.

 

[Cold Fusion]

This topic needs actives. I theorize that this should be a good stage for Sheik Shaq because of her his good running speed making it easy to clear the stage distance.

 

[stealth3654]

FD is a good stage for Sheik against most of the cast. This stage makes it easier to spam needles and GR. In my opinion, the only characters you should strike/ban this stage against is IC and Pikachu.

 

[Dcold]

ICs is a definate, Pikachu i can see as a strike because of the chain grab and easier for him to camp. GR on this stage is basically a KO if you know how to do it perfectly. Needles help us control, and i agree FD is a decent neutral against most of the cast.

 

[Zankoku]

Pikachu seriously doesn't need FD to chaingrab you, considering it's done in place.

I would ban FD against Ice Climbers for very obvious reasons.

I would stage strike it against Falco and Diddy Kong because they take better advantage of a long, flat stage with no platforms for maneuvering than Sheik does.
Falco in particular has no trouble escaping right past you with his Phantasm, and can projectile camp very strongly with his lasers.
Sheik really needs room to maneuver and run away against Diddy, since actually fighting him when he's got bananas is a really bad idea. While she can camp him with needles, Sheik is left with relatively few options when Diddy finally makes it up close and Sheik needs a quick exit.

I would possibly counterpick this stage against Marth, Wario, and Meta Knight.
Marth has a better advantage off of his platform game than Sheik does, so eliminating them altogether will lessen his options in the matchup.
Sheik can grab release Wario on a whole lot of stages, but Final Destination makes it a threat from anywhere.
Same with Meta Knight. Don't CP this for grab releases on him unless you have the DACUS down, though.

 

[Dcold]

Pikachu seriously doesn't need FD to chaingrab you, considering it's done in place.

I would ban FD against Ice Climbers for very obvious reasons.

I would stage strike it against Falco and Diddy Kong because they take better advantage of a long, flat stage with no platforms for maneuvering than Sheik does.
Falco in particular has no trouble escaping right past you with his Phantasm, and can projectile camp very strongly with his lasers.
Sheik really needs room to maneuver and run away against Diddy, since actually fighting him when he's got bananas is a really bad idea. While she can camp him with needles, Sheik is left with relatively few options when Diddy finally makes it up close and Sheik needs a quick exit.

I would possibly counterpick this stage against Marth, Wario, and Meta Knight.
Marth has a better advantage off of his platform game than Sheik does, so eliminating them altogether will lessen his options in the matchup.
Sheik can grab release Wario on a whole lot of stages, but Final Destination makes it a threat from anywhere.
Same with Meta Knight. Don't CP this for grab releases on him unless you have the DACUS down, though.

I got my GRUST down to like 95% success rate on flat stages like FD and SV. Once grust is perfected it makes the MK matchup a little easier since we have a reliable way to kill him.

 

[-Mars-]

To add to what Ankoku said.....I like this stage against DDD and G&W a lot due to the spacing options it gives you. I also take Peach here although that may be due to personal preference more than anything else.

Taking Snake here isn't a bad option either. You outcamp Snake on this stage imo at a distance Sheik has no problem avoiding grenades and if you're forcing Snake to approach that matchup becomes so much easier for Sheik. He can't control platforms or strategic areas like he can on all the other neutrals and you always can just simply run away from him lol.

Other than being a good stage to camp people on, I really don't see any specific advantages it gives Sheik other than spacing.

 

[Dcold]

I agree, against D3 this is a stage i feel comfortable on, i can control it better since he can't cg me, and once we're in close we rack up some good damage, and from far away needles help us outcamp him.

Snake is an ok cp here, i'd say this would be a good starting stage imo since SV is so small he can control the whole stage with his explosives and range. BF you do NOT want him there. YI is ehhh. You can avoid his nades here on FD and we do outcamp him here. So Snake could be a possible CP here.

 

[stealth3654]

Oh yeah. I forgot to mention striking/banning this stage against Diddy Kong. Ugh... What a pain fighting him on this stage.

I don't like fighting Pikas on FD because there are no platforms you can run away with.

If you fight ZSS on this stage, she can kind of plank by ledge dropping and using her down B and wall jumping off of the inside of FD's lip to get back on the ledge.

I CP Snakes/Marth/Wario/MK/Luigi/GaW and probably some others with FD whenever I can.

 

[Dcold]

So we can agree Snake/Marth/Wario/MK are definate CP choices

This thread needs to be bumped, or made a sticky More people need to discuss this like really. C'MON

 

[Leafplayer452]

Best Neutral for Sheik

Take Metaknight Snake, Kirby, Fox, Wolf, ZSS, Lucario, Wario, Olimar, Ike, Zelda, Peach, Mr. G&W, ICs (if your beast at needle camping) and I guess all other low tiers from D tier downward

Strike against (DO NOT BAN THIS STAGE FOR ANYONE BUT MAYBE ICE CLIMBERS) Falco, Pikachu, Diddy, maybe Donkey Kong (cargo spike and up b ***** on FD) R.O.B., TL, Pit, and some other characters that im forgeting I think

 

[rathy Aro]

I don't see donkey kong being a problem on FD. I actually like taking him there for the reasons other people mentioned they like FD.

 

[ThreeSided]

If you fight ZSS on this stage, she can kind of plank by ledge dropping and using her down B and wall jumping off of the inside of FD's lip to get back on the ledge.

That's actually an extremely unintelligent thing for a ZSS player to do, especially against a fast character with good gimping abilities like Shiek. That process is slow, and you could easily edge hog her out of it, at which point all she has left is her tether and second jump, which would be very predictable, and easily gimped with a Bair, Uair, or even Fair or Nair. Besides, it's faster to drop down and DI in under the stage, and then flip out to grab the edge, which is something you can do on all stages with a lip.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Here is my opinion:

FD is great for DACUS. There is nothing that the foe can get on.

FD is great for GR because there are no platforms in the way.

FD is wonderful for juggling because there are no platforms to get into the way.

FD helps for Needle camping/spamming since there is no alternative root to getting to Sheik.

The lip under FD can be wall bounced off of and it helps to duck down under there sometimes on certain match ups.

 

[Leafplayer452]

Savior I think DACUS is best on BF cuz Sheik can get enemies on the mid level platforms

 

[Dcold]

Savior I think DACUS is best on BF cuz Sheik can get enemies on the mid level platforms

You can't grust on there, and you have to line it up perfectly to get them hit by the tip

 

[saviorslegacy]

Savior I think DACUS is best on BF cuz Sheik can get enemies on the mid level platforms

That is more like tipper sniping.
On BF people can shield before the tipper comes out.
No, to tipper on BF it takes skill to put them onto the platform or to punish any lag that they may get.

 

[Judo777]

That is more like tipper sniping.
On BF people can shield before the tipper comes out.
No, to tipper on BF it takes skill to put them onto the platform or to punish any lag that they may get.

I think he just meant DACUS saviors FD is obviously the best for GRUST (there i used ur term dccold lol)

Yea FD is a great pick against everyone that doesnt have a projectile because now sheik can camp with needles. I think this stage is one of the best choices against a gw because needles are soooooo important to that MU

 

[JagaTranvo]

I disagree, slightly although its a good stage but not great. There are better stages you can pick like yoshi's island, IMO stages with platforms brings out the characters full potential.

 

[-Mars-]

YI is in no way a good Sheik stage.....mainly because of how much it gays her recovery.

 

[saviorslegacy]

that and YI mess's up almost everything that deals with DACUS.

 

[Dcold]

Ok, we've established only ban this stage against ICs, strike against Diddy, Falco, and Pika. Now we have to find counterpicks. Marth, Wario, Snake. Name CPs please now, no more needless fluff everyone knows. GO

P.S.: Rate this stage out of 5. Looking to be like a 4 it seems. Next stage is going to be YI btw since everyone wants to discuss that. Yay! But let's get FD done first.

 

[Judo777]

I dont think it should be struck against pika. It gives you room to run the hell away and camp with needles which btw we can out camp pika. Infact of the 5 neutrals i think FD or BF would be the two stages i would most prefer.

CP this stage against Wario and MK and maybe marth.

 

[Dcold]

I dont think it should be struck against pika. It gives you room to run the hell away and camp with needles which btw we can out camp pika. Infact of the 5 neutrals i think FD or BF would be the two stages i would most prefer.

CP this stage against Wario and MK and maybe marth.

BF is out best stage against Pika, end of story lol. We can handle easier on BF, and on FD we can't run from the jolts. And we don't outcamp him since he can jump while camping us, and if we jump and needle...well that doesn't work

 

[rathy Aro]

TJ is SO easy to powershield. How can he out camp anyone with a projectile?

Right now I'm theorycrafting (I have no way to test), but I'm imagining him using TJ and when he lands we needle or if he doesn't want to jump we needle. Mad easy.

 

[Judo777]

TJ is SO easy to powershield. How can he out camp anyone with a projectile?

Right now I'm theorycrafting (I have no way to test), but I'm imagining him using TJ and when he lands we needle or if he doesn't want to jump we needle. Mad easy.

what he said almost exactly. Pika cannot outcamp us seriously we can jump over his jolts and charge needles in the air or just shield em on the ground. When they are charged when he jumps to TJ he can not avoid the needles at this point cause he doesnt recover from lag til he hits the ground. I'd trade 5% for 18% anyday.

BF might very well be our best stage but FD isnt far behind because in the end this matchup comes down to not getting grabbed and while platforms do help alot running away is also a good option. Plus GRUST is guaranteed on pika

 

[stealth3654]

I don't like FD against Pika because there are no platforms to run away with.

I think FD should be CPed against: MK, Snake, Wario, GaW, Marth, Fox, Wolf, Peach, Luigi, Lucas, Ness, PT, and Jiggs.

I listed Fox and Wolf because this way they can't platform camp till after tilt lock %.

 

[Dcold]

You're making it seem as if the pika won't move if you try to approach. You can't get your needles off if you're PSing every TJ. You can't get close enough to him for needles to even hit. Try to PS run, and he'll move not just stand there as if nothing will happen.

Plus, you can't run away with platforms

 

[stealth3654]

You can just camp the platform until you get over CG %. If Pika was to CG you while you are on the platform, he will have to be standing on the platform first.

 

[Bsrk_]

Camping is boring as hell_ The fact that you are choosing a stage for it's campability is almost telling players they should camp camp camp_ Good players will be able to break the camp and force an approach_

I personally feel that BF is Shieks more favorable stage as it gives her more options_ FD is fine against players who have more options with platforms than you (MK, Marth, Wario), but i don't feel it is a must choose CP for Pika or even Snake_ Platforms are better for those matchups because we have more aerial options against them_

 

[JagaTranvo]

Marth-As for marth, Imo his weakness is under him,stages like lylat cruise and battle field, both have alot of platforms for him to jump on and you to fair and nairs

Wario-With wario I think about his arials and how he moves,im kind of iffy about this but I deduce the best stage to fight wario on is delino plaza, I guess the game with wario is to smash him out,with sheiks speed on ground game its very possible to win

Snake-I think the best way to deal with snakes are platformed-stages I.E- rainbow cruise <3 and brinstar,I believe with constantly jumping around,skeiks arials shine and he has weird spacing and nade game



FD ****/*****
4 / 5

 

[Bsrk_]

You make a good point about Marth i might of underestimated_ Completely forgot about Lylat Cruise

Personally i have had this <3 for FO lately_

 

[Zankoku]

Good players will be able to break the camp and force an approach_

This is why games in Brawl last an average of 5 minutes, right?

Camping may be boring but it is in no way an inferior strategy. If one player is camping well then the other must play carefully if he wants to make it through without getting punished.

 

[saviorslegacy]

This is why games in Brawl last an average of 5 minutes, right?

Camping may be boring but it is in no way an inferior strategy. If one player is camping well then the other must play carefully if he wants to make it through without getting punished.

This is why I never get 3 minute replays. -_-
My matches last on average of 6 or 7 minutes. I sometimes run the timer out.
Speed camping with Sheik is to good. If they have an approach that is really good but cause's them to close in on you then Vanish is good for that (don't spam it because they will fake you out and punish your lag).
Out space and punish with Chain as well.
Bair/f-tilt things when Chain isn't a valid option and you are afraid of using Vanish/Vanish does not apply.
Needle everything they do and constant be charging Needle's.

Mix in a little aggression when you have the upper hand and you have my play style.
It helps counter her undisjointedness since you are not approaching.

 

[Judo777]

You're making it seem as if the pika won't move if you try to approach. You can't get your needles off if you're PSing every TJ. You can't get close enough to him for needles to even hit. Try to PS run, and he'll move not just stand there as if nothing will happen.

Plus, you can't run away with platforms

I dont think you get what i am saying. Yes BF is sheiks best stage against pika but every pika i play bans BF so FD is the next best thing IMO.

And yes you can PS TJ and charge needles in between but even if you couldnt like i said you can charge needles in the air so jump over the TJ and charge needles unless he is close enough to hit you but at that range you shouldnt be trying to camp anyway. But more importantly Needles goes across most of FD and if he full hops TJ he CANNOT recover until after he touches the ground so take the TJ and throw your needles at him when he lands he cant avoid it he can only control which way he falls through the air. Dodge his TJ then when ur needles are charged trade with him when he lands since he will land at the end of his jump cause he is stunned.

Also its good because GR>DACUS or GRUST is guaranteed on pika

 

[Dcold]

If you two [Judo and Rathy?] can make a better, let me rephrase that, a good enough arguement about CPing FD against Pikachu, or atleast not striking it, i'll list it. But from what i see, i don't think many other people agree with you. Going to update up to what people have said, and what the census is.

UPDATED OP. LIKE/DISLIKE? CONTINUE PIKA DEBATE. NEXT STAGE WILL BE YI OR BF YOUR PICK. WHICHEVER WAS NOT PICKED, WILL BE AFTER. DISCUSSIONS WILL BE KEPT TO A WEEK/2 WEEKS UNLESS DISCREPANCIES. STAY ON TOPIC PEOPLE. THANKS

 

[Judo777]

No you are right Dccold BF is the best pick for pika so shoot for that i was just trying to say i think FD is a good second choice if they strike BF. For the sake of this thread no pika doesnt belong in the CP spot for FD.

I was just saying why FD is a good second choice for reasons like camping is all I'm not trying to be argumentative

 

[Dcold]

It's a discussion, it's meant to be argumentative lol. What i'm really looking for is if we should strike it against him. That's the new question.

Tired of this capital D, really annoying me now -.-

 

[rathy Aro]

rathy ain't a part of this arguement.

For the sake of avoiding the chaingrab I suppose BF makes more sense.