Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[SPAWN]

M2k is the best Sheik (or at least in the US *doesn't offend any Europeans) and Kage is the best Ganon arguably. How does this not qualify to be the deciding factor? However, I do wish both players had decided to cg (M2k obviously told Kage not to cg him because he feels any time players cg it makes he feels it makes the game less fun which it does), that would've been interesting... not as a match but to see how much better/worse Ganon does since his cg is really broken on Sheik.

Also, I'm talking on a high level of play. On a slightly lower level of play, it's a much tougher matchup because Sheik players get baited/misspace so they get grabbed and then die because Ganon is ********.

On another note...

How do you beat Peach? I thought it was a good idea to shield a lot... but it's seeming like it isn't.

 

[ArcNatural]

M2k is the best Sheik (or at least in the US *doesn't offend any Europeans) and Kage is the best Ganon arguably. How does this not qualify to be the deciding factor? However, I do wish both players had decided to cg (M2k obviously told Kage not to cg him because he feels any time players cg it makes he feels it makes the game less fun which it does), that would've been interesting... not as a match but to see how much better/worse Ganon does since his cg is really broken on Sheik.

Also, I'm talking on a high level of play. On a slightly lower level of play, it's a much tougher matchup because Sheik players get baited/misspace so they get grabbed and then die because Ganon is ********.

On another note...

How do you beat Peach? I thought it was a good idea to shield a lot... but it's seeming like it isn't.

What? Your Spawn, fulljump double jump over float and throw needles all dai.

 

[bananarama]

Thanks, soap. Besides down-throwing against high %'s, are there any other reliable setups to a sweetspotted up-smash?

 

[SPAWN]

bananarama- Usmash oos vs some random chars... I tried what soap said (I think) of the usmash oos vs jiggs and it worked out pretty good. I've been doing it vs like Falco and it's so odd that it's been working xD.

Lol, that's so gay haha. I know Sheik's bair beats everything Peach has. But it just logically makes sense to me about shielding. Peach's grab game sucks vs Sheik. You can wd oos grab after Peach's dsmash right(Also, you have to light shield the dsmash to grab)? I lost the timing for it I think... or the Peach's I've played before sucked. Gah, I used to be really good at the matchup but I've been focusing on getting really good vs Fox/Falco that I think I'm starting to get bad at the matchup like I used to be. T_T

 

[soap]

dont shield against peach. her float cancel is too gay. space autocancel fair and grab, thats all u need.

upsmash out of shield is ridiculous against jiggs. every time they aerial and try to cross over your shield, usmash. they autocancel nair into crouch, usmash.

u can set up sweetspot usmash easily on fastfallers. weak usmash, dash attack, all her tilts, dair. just watch their DI

 

[KirbyKaze]

Every Ganon just camps Fair in place or Bair and jump back Bair / Fair and if you're smart at all you'll realize all the stuff you can do about this. His ground game blows, so if you ever convince him to fight you there he auto-loses.

Sheik's Bair has more aerial priority than Falco as a whole. If you're both facing each other, Sheik will have more aerial priority because of her Fair. In few situations does Falco have more aerial priority (although there are a few where he does).

The issue is spacing because he has the ultimate anti-spacing tool (laser).

If he lasers until you're forced to jump because he lasers at a good height and then goes for the punish, you have to learn how to stay fresh when you're forced to the air.

Shield vs grounded Peach is acceptable sometimes. Shield vs airborne / floating Peach is bad. It's better to try to pressure her into doing bad stuff. Her anti-pressure is actually more punishable than her offensive stuff for Sheik, believe it or not.

Canadian Jigglypuffs don't do cross-ups. They all just drift away. Then again, our Puffs all suck comparative to Hungrybox and Mango and Darc so oh well.

D-tilt --> Fair is indeed ridiculous. D-tilt to anti-air a Fox Nair and then do ridiculous Sheik combo #41 v2.01 is too good.

Nair is faster and does more shield stun so idk Fair is always superior.

 

[soap]

shield pound, tip usmash. that ones my favorite

 

[SPAWN]

Why did I enjoy reading KK's post so much?

Soap- Good stuff also. **** roofing in 4 hours. T_T I took tylenol pm 3 hours ago why am I not asleep/tired!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[soap]

kk's posts have spunk, thats why

 

[raychun1]

ganon does fine against sheik. i recently played a non-cg set with a ganon and it's not always easy getting a slap-KO. ganon can di away and avoid f-tilt at certain percents. and if the ganon can do the perfect waveland from the ledge, he can edge-guard the crap out of sheik. the funny thing about kage is that everyone says he's the best ganon--but i think he can still get better. i've played him at genesis for hours and didn't win a single match. it was like all 1 stocks, but i coudln't win.

about falco, i'm convinced you can't beat falco head on. falco has the best approach, and sheik probably has the most awkward. you can't shffl anything against him and you can't needle camp him consistently. he also has better shield pressure. i'm almost convinced sheik's game is all about grabs, d-smashing, and edgeguarding. if you can do those 3, then there's no way falco will win. (not trying to undermine KK's OP, it's good and detailed).

 

[Teczer0]

1) Why does sheik and ganon go even?

a) They both have a 0-death CG on each other. YET ganon MUST approach due to lack of projectiles.

b) Sheik has an easier time grabbing. Sheik's CC grab is a lot stronger than ganon's CC grab. Ganon's grab range isn't spectacular and he is slow. Not to mention that sheik on the other hand is fast in general and her grab range is quite good.

I think the key reason ganons do better than expected is because of the lack of ganon experience that most sheiks have.

Sheik vs ganon is in sheik's favor imo.


2) When did grabbing falco become so simple?

Yes, edgeguarding falco is fairly straightforward. But GETTING falco offstage is a giant task all on its own.

His far superior projectile game means YOU have to approach even with stages with platforms.

Even though our shields are big his shield pressure game is too good. Played correctly its just too difficult to shieldgrab him. Is it impossible? No but you have to FORCE the error.

Not only that, one dair shine -> combo puts you at a pretty high percent if DIed wrong. Even DIed right it could add a ton of percent on you.

So IMO sheik vs falco is in Falco's favor.

I don't delve into percentages even though I do have my own thoughts about it. Percentages are just to biased anyway.

 

[pockyD]

how would a sheik ever cc grab a ganon =\

sheik still wrecks him though

 

[raychun1]

hmm? sheik vs ganon is def in sheik's favor, i just think the non-cg set changed my opinion about the machup. i do not believe i said they go even(if i did, i take it back). i'm just not sure how much or what the percents are. i agree with your points about ganon. i just think it's a myth that sheik absolutely ***** ganon.

on falco, it's true that sheik has to force errors on falco. but if we're talking about errors, if sheik doesn't mess up then falco is f'ed. it's a lot harder for falco to play perfectly than sheik, at least in terms of consistency.

tec0, does falco have an advantage on fox? if he does, it's not any worse than what falco has on sheik. and i think that sheik does slightly better against falco than fox does.

 

[KirbyKaze]

ganon does fine against sheik. i recently played a non-cg set with a ganon and it's not always easy getting a slap-KO. ganon can di away and avoid f-tilt at certain percents. and if the ganon can do the perfect waveland from the ledge, he can edge-guard the crap out of sheik. the funny thing about kage is that everyone says he's the best ganon--but i think he can still get better. i've played him at genesis for hours and didn't win a single match. it was like all 1 stocks, but i coudln't win.

about falco, i'm convinced you can't beat falco head on. falco has the best approach, and sheik probably has the most awkward. you can't shffl anything against him and you can't needle camp him consistently. he also has better shield pressure. i'm almost convinced sheik's game is all about grabs, d-smashing, and edgeguarding. if you can do those 3, then there's no way falco will win. (not trying to undermine KK's OP, it's good and detailed).

Without the chain grab it's probably not that bad for Ganon. But with it, it's horrible, horrible ****.

I find grabbing a Falco in the abstract far too troublesome without an aerial or knock over to lead into it. You can't beat Falco head-on if you're at the same height, but you're Sheik.

I dislike D-smash against Falco except for tech chasing and edgeguarding. But I generally dislike ground moves against Falco in general. But to each their own. Maybe there's enough room in Sheik's big heart for both styles to work against Falco if you have good execution <3

 

[Teczer0]

hmm? sheik vs ganon is def in sheik's favor, i just think the non-cg set changed my opinion about the machup. i do not believe i said they go even(if i did, i take it back). i'm just not sure how much or what the percents are. i agree with your points about ganon. i just think it's a myth that sheik absolutely ***** ganon.

on falco, it's true that sheik has to force errors on falco. but if we're talking about errors, if sheik doesn't mess up then falco is f'ed. it's a lot harder for falco to play perfectly than sheik, at least in terms of consistency.

tec0, does falco have an advantage on fox? if he does, it's not any worse than what falco has on sheik. and i think that sheik does slightly better against falco than fox does.

Falco might be on level terms with fox on some stages but in general I think fox has the advantage.

Its not really about playing perfectly. Falco doesn't need break neck tech skill in order to not get grabbed. You just need to have a good sense of spacing really. His nair and bair does an extremely good job of keeping him out of shieldgrab range.

Not saying tech skill doesn't matter, but I think if you don't play perfect, you can get away with it sometimes.

About the comparison to sheik/fox vs falco its pretty obvious what I think because of my arguements.

Fox IMO has an easier time vs falco then sheik does.

EDIT: I'm not really sure if anyone said explicitly if ganon goes even with sheik but it sounds like thats what everyone is trying to arrive at. Maybe I'm just jumping to conclusions *shrugs*

how would a sheik ever cc grab a ganon =\

sheik still wrecks him though

Why can't I CC grab him? I've done it before to ganon's bair/jab/ftilt a few times.

Fair might be a little difficult >_> maybe at 0 if you charge in maybe.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Ganon vs Sheik is even, then something has happened to cripple Sheik and buff Ganon immensely or someone realized how to do effective things that aren't "Fair / Bair in place".

 

[SonuvaBeach]

If Ganon vs Sheik is even, then something has happened to cripple Sheik and buff Ganon immensely or someone realized how to do effective things that aren't "Fair / Bair in place".

Exactly. Sheik has so many advantages, it is just about exploiting Ganon's weaknesses...which are many. Yes, Ganon's combo's are beast and one combo can easily send you to death. But to get those combo's Ganon has to capitalize on huge mistakes that shouldn't be made by the sheik player. Sheik on the other hand just forces Ganon to do whatever she pleases through needles and utter speeeed.

Fox is a much easier matchup than Falco IMO. Don't mistake easier with Sheik having more of an advantage though. I think they are both even or maybe 55-45...negligible basically, but Falco has the ability to control it so much better than Fox. If Fox is approaching I have so many options, not to mention a d-smash that trades hits, but against Falco nu uhh.

 

[raychun1]

well, we were talking about who has an easier time versus falco--sheik or fox, but i'll bite.

i really think fox does better against sheik than falco. but i've been having an easier time with fox lately, but it's always about the other player. i definitely feel like the WORST and BEST players use fox. there are so many garbage foxes it's hilarious. and plus it's fox; everyone essentially knows the matchup or the potential of the matchup.

i don't get how m2k avoids lasers so well against falcos. he just avoids the lasers and chokes the bird perfectly. maybe the standing needle is the new solution???????

btw, standard generic falcos are actually okay for me. it's the weird, slow, mindgamey falcos that piss me off. the ones that spam grab, fsmash, and the shine oos. ughh

 

[SonuvaBeach]

well, we were talking about who has an easier time versus falco--sheik or fox, but i'll bite.

i really think fox does better against sheik than falco. but i've been having an easier time with fox lately, but it's always about the other player. i definitely feel like the WORST and BEST players use fox. there are so many garbage foxes it's hilarious. and plus it's fox; everyone essentially knows the matchup or the potential of the matchup.

i don't get how m2k avoids lasers so well against falcos. he just avoids the lasers and chokes the bird perfectly. maybe the standing needle is the new solution???????

Oh yeah. I read that...then for some reason I switched topics. Oops. Fox or Sheik vs falco...I don't know. Not good enough with Fox yet to say. Since I'm much better with Sheik it seems sheik, but Fox is so quick and has the ability to cover distance and handle lasers better than Sheik. Not to mention a shine of his own.

m2k is m2k. Everything he does is sex and is a phenomenon to us all. What else needs to be said?

Yeah, I haven't played any super beast Falco's yet and I still get pooped on. Can't imagine playing someone like Zhu or any top falco. 4 stocked!

 

[Sliq]

Why's er'body always hatin' on me.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Because you're adorable.

 

[unknown522]

Without the chain grab it's probably not that bad for Ganon. But with it, it's horrible, horrible ****.

I find grabbing a Falco in the abstract far too troublesome without an aerial or knock over to lead into it. You can't beat Falco head-on if you're at the same height, but you're Sheik.

I dislike D-smash against Falco except for tech chasing and edgeguarding. But I generally dislike ground moves against Falco in general. But to each their own. Maybe there's enough room in Sheik's big heart for both styles to work against Falco if you have good execution <3

Anti-air falco with it. It's awesome

 

[bananarama]

But doesn't Falco's dair beat Shiek's d-smash? And that's like half of Falco's air game right there (at the risk of grossly over-simplifying things).

Also, haven't really tried this and most definitely somebody's probably thought of it and disproved it already, but can a Shiek just crouch to limit Falco's SHL (only can pull off one lazer per jump to hit Shiek's crouch height I think) and shield in order to force the falco to approach..... god this looks a lot dumber when I am typing it down >.>;

 

[Teczer0]

But doesn't Falco's dair beat Shiek's d-smash? And that's like half of Falco's air game right there (at the risk of grossly over-simplifying things).

Also, haven't really tried this and most definitely somebody's probably thought of it and disproved it already, but can a Shiek just crouch to limit Falco's SHL (only can pull off one lazer per jump to hit Shiek's crouch height I think) and shield in order to force the falco to approach..... god this looks a lot dumber when I am typing it down >.>;

I believe falco's dair does beat sheik's dsmash.

You can definitely crouch under certain lasers. However there are a lot of heights he can shoot at. He can actually shoot a very low laser to make it harder to crouch PS lasers all day.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Anti-air falco with it. It's awesome

That would be so awesome if Falcos didn't respond to WD back anything with more lasers.

But, for real, Sheik's D-smash > Falco Dair. If you somehow trick them into actually fighting you without a billion lasers do it as much as possible.

 

[bananarama]

You can definitely crouch under certain lasers. However there are a lot of heights he can shoot at. He can actually shoot a very low laser to make it harder to crouch PS lasers all day.

Which is why also suggested shielding the low lasers once the Falco wises up. Granted there is still a delay between letting go of the shield and going back to crouching position so there's that too. I could see it working at the ends of Corneria absolutely, but that opens up a whole new dangerous possibility doesn't it? ... Blah **** Falco.

But, for real, Sheik's D-smash > Falco Dair.

You have a frame of invincibility. They do not.

! Did not know that. Is it at the beginning?

 

[unknown522]

^^ or time it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ idk who you're responding to

! Did not know that. Is it at the beginning?

Her leg is invincible on frame 5 (the hitbox leg).

 

[soap]

i anti air dsmash when it is spaced right.

don't bank on that solitary invincibility frame lol.

Ganon, i think gets *****. I've played against joe's ganon alot back in the day, and i train with a ganon main.

if they retreat fair, which they will, just run up and dtilt after they miss, they will cover themselves with a jab usually and u duck it. (just watch out for those stupid b moves that evade stuff, u can sidestep it, then take their stock)

u can pressure easily with autocancel fair to crouch, u do a move and disappear from their grab range, its so stupid.

alternatively, needle camp, then intercept their approaching aerial which is pretty slow. all they can do is camp different types of fair to keep you at bay. (double jump, retreating)

70/30 with chaingrabs, 60/40 without (sheiks chaingrab + edgeguard is slightly more efficient)

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Just bait them into attacking you, cuz once they land they're boned.

 

[Teczer0]

Which is why also suggested shielding the low lasers once the Falco wises up. Granted there is still a delay between letting go of the shield and going back to crouching position so there's that too. I could see it working at the ends of Corneria absolutely, but that opens up a whole new dangerous possibility doesn't it? ... Blah **** Falco.

How would you use this in order to force Falco to approach?

 

[bananarama]

How would you use this in order to force Falco to approach?

What I was hoping for with this idea was a simple method to lessen the use of shield and last longer against a Falco's SHL than simply holding down the shield or jumping over the lazers, but I realized that it still don't work cause of the delay between shielding and crouching. Yet another bad idea to start of the long list of them I will be having in the future on these boards

Although I think it could work on the ends of Corneria should a Falco ever CP it.... although there's also the danger of getting knocked off the stage and spiked, but those are unimportant details amirite?

 

[unknown522]

But doesn't Falco's dair beat Shiek's d-smash? And that's like half of Falco's air game right there (at the risk of grossly over-simplifying things).

Also, haven't really tried this and most definitely somebody's probably thought of it and disproved it already, but can a Shiek just crouch to limit Falco's SHL (only can pull off one lazer per jump to hit Shiek's crouch height I think) and shield in order to force the falco to approach..... god this looks a lot dumber when I am typing it down >.>;

sheik's down smash at the very beginning beats almost every move in the game.

^ idk who you're responding to

you. Rawr.

 

[KirbyKaze]

banana: Falcos don't approach Sheik unless she's being hit by lasers or airborne.

unknown: Sheik's too good. I forgot you can time moves to beat other moves without WD back.

 

[soap]

downsmash is bull****

 

[raychun1]

ever notice how sheik's wd back is broken but her wd forward is rarely used???

-dash attack is faster
-running d-smash is faster
-can't really use fsmash with it(or in general)
-no b-moves to use with wd forward

i use wd forward only for grabs and wd out of shield.

also, i learned that the chain is useful for when the spacies are trying to bombard you with spaced autocancel b-airs. that chain eats them up. i hate when the space animals do that.

 

[pockyD]

and WALK FORWARD is amazing

 

[SPAWN]

I completely forgot about timing dsmash. Usually I just spam it forever and then die because I forget it's not that broken.

 

[soap]

ever notice how sheik's wd back is broken but her wd forward is rarely used???

-dash attack is faster
-running d-smash is faster
-can't really use fsmash with it(or in general)
-no b-moves to use with wd forward

i use wd forward only for grabs and wd out of shield.

also, i learned that the chain is useful for when the spacies are trying to bombard you with spaced autocancel b-airs. that chain eats them up. i hate when the space animals do that.

i wd forward into tilts alot out of run. seems more fluid to me than just dash canceling.

wavedash seems like the most natural way to transition between walk and run

wavedash out of run into walk forward like pocky said.

 

[Spife]

So I'm taking sheik a lot more seriously and am thinking about using in tourny tomorrow, so my sheik is tourny ready, but what are like, the top 5-10 things I need to know/remember that are important and sheik related?!?!?!!?

>_> Thenks gais.