Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[KirbyKaze]

You can't. It's impossible.

 

[joejoe22802]

Lol thats ****ing funny.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Patient people in fighting-type games suck, period. Needs to be Super Aggro Bros. all day.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Fly_Amanita]

The best general advice I can think of for playing against patient people is to not let yourself get flustered.

 

[silentSWAG]

dont let them "out play you"

 

[soap]

I always just try to play on my terms and put them in situations that I'm familiar with and know how to control

 

[Sinji]

What do you do in the shiek vs falcon match up?

 

[The Great Gonzales]

I actually try to react half the time (and usually fail) then guess the rest. Randomly lol.

im surprised you saying that, from the macthes ive seen you play sheick your pretty good at tech-chasing.

 

[Mew2King]

I WAS pretty good at it 3 years ago, but as I have not played humans lately I have become very bad at it. I'm nowhere near what I was at gen1 when I used to play the game a lot I'm a washed-up has-been now in many categories

 

[silentSWAG]

What do you do in the shiek vs falcon match up?

if you look, theres alot of stuff on this already

stay grounded
**** him up when he techs
ftilt his sh approaches
bair/wd on ledge/dsmash recovery

 

[Mew2King]

the MU is pretty close, i don't think sheik wins by much. Falcon's up throw to Uair connects on sheik and marth both after 30 and can lead to a regrab or more Uairs which doesn't even really require reflexes and i can kill sheiks/marths a lot from doing this.

but yeah u have to stay grounded most of the time cuz falcon's Uair ***** anything above him really badly

 

[Armada]

Sinji:

Ground game: Sheiks ground game is really good against Falcon and something you should use more. CC is really good against some of Falcons approaches (You against Jeapie 2.17 and M2k vs Mango 7.23). F-tilt has a lot of priority and beat/trade with a lot of falcons stuff and is fast (Me against Nizro 3rd match 0.20 and 1.35 - 0.27 first match). Those f-tilts also beat nair (connect to grab) but I can´t find a perfect example on that atm. You should also use more needles they are great at rack up damage and many people start appraoching cause they are not patient enough (trust me). But be careful cause they are a bit slow so don´t use them to much when they are on close range

Arieal/Plattform game: CF has retarted priority/hitbox with that uair so don´t use plattforms much. Situation you can use plattforms is if you have Falcon on close range (m2k vs Mango 6.08) The reason why Sheiks use plattforms sometimes when falcon is close to the plattform (not under) is beacause Falcon can´t coming from more than one angle pretty much but if you stay on plattform when he is far away he can come from a lot more of angles AND your needles becomes less effective (close range =needles works - far away= not)

Both Fair and Bair is okay but don´t use those arielas more than your ground game. Bair is more safe and connect to grab sometimes. Fair is less safe but connect to grab too (Me against Nizro third game 0.09). I guess mix up between them is good but I go more for bair in generall cause it is more safe.

Dashdance: Something that is really important in this MU and this is your key to beat many appraoches from Falcon and then grab him (No example here. Really bad I only have the first set I played Sheik against Falcon recorded). This is really good but the spaceing is a bit tricky but this is REALLY good. You maybe wonder why you just can´t f-tilt from what you have read so far but this can happen (Armada vs Nizro 3rd match 2.13). Falcon can also run then shield grab your f-tilt (if you don´t space 100% correctly which is hard sience he runs into you). So mix up between those too.

Edguarding: Really important point and once he is out he should not get in. If Falcon is coming back Never use fair (Amsah vs Jeapie 2.47). Instead use (M2k vs Mango 7.28). Use M2ks example on high damage (cause you can´t combo) and dair when he has high % enough to give you a free combo. With that I mean use the dair like you does with Falco. Like you should be closer to the center of the stage after you jump from the edge then Falcon (so he can´t DI into the stage pretty much) cause this gives you a free fair or in worst case scenario bair (turn around needle cancel fair is usefull sometimes). And ofc use traditioal bair from the edge when "normal" situations comes. Next really important point with edgeguarding is staying on the ground (main key for the MU). Compare your example against Hax (1.20 and 5.06) (You against Jeapie 1.05) with (Armada vs Nizro 3rd match 3.30) (M2k vs Mango 4.57). I know you maybe say it is a bit different BUT Hax didn´t even reached the plattform so he can´t come from a angle you can´t cover with that f-tilt. Look at (Me against Nizro 3rd match 3.26) staying on the ground in those situations is really good too. Reason is that Sheik is way to Slow in the air so stay on the ground as much as possible (no plattforms is really good for Sheik but wait work on other stages too if they don´t have enough space to plattfrom cancel it you know. The only situations you should jump off stage is if Falcon is coming way to high from above to stay on the ground (M2k vs Mango 4.30).

Throws: Compare (you against Jeapie 0.40 and 2.01) with (You came all this way....) (Me against Nizro the 2 first stock 3rd match) No plattforms on those matches but I think you can see how effective d-thorw is so never use uppthrow. Falcon has the worst roll in the game so play on reaction allways and be patient. If Falcon is on a plattforms but haven´t teched and you are close (in the middle under the plattform) wait. He can´t escape at all.

DI: Really hard part of the MU but in generall I prefer DI down away from Falcons combos. Falcon seems to have a hard time to combo Sheik is you use this DI (but ofc mix up). If you have around 60 % Falcon will use upp throw and a really good thing to do is DI into him from the throw and DI away down on the uair (they will use knee if you DI like that all the time so be carefull) they can´t combo you. The reason is cause they have no speed from the Uair sience you DI into him from the throw. My experience against a lot of Falcons is why I belive this works really good.

Pressure: Falcons always use their jabs so jump is ofc not so good in any form. What to do is hard to say but I guess just wait and then try to do something but not jump out from it at least.

Combos: Except from the d-throw part use reactions. Maybe it is boring but 0-deth Falcon is so easy. You came all this way... and my 3rd match against Nizro proves a lot of reactions (and that video is really old and my Sheik is way better than that cause I used random stuff cause I didn´t know the MU really good back then). Like always wait for the roll THEN go. Falcon can´t do anything against it and it works every singles time. Wait then do normal Sheik combos. Reactions is underrated in generall but don´t use it against Falcon pretty much all the time is bad I think (okay if you have a perfect read/feeling go for it but not to often). Many Falcons don´t tech all the time so then I guess you have to go for uppsmash sometimes. That is not reaction but when I say "do that" ofc I mean in generall. Jab reset is overrated and Falcons smash DI it a lot (like a lot of exmaple excist in your set aganst Hax). A mindgame that works many times is just walking to them and pretend you are going for a jab then they smash DI and just walks up and you can grab again (use sheld if they by misstake use a button too).

Weird NTSC stuff: (M2k vs Mango 2.40) stuff like this you have to check up by yourself cause Im not so famaliar with ntsc Sheik.

Random stuff: You came all this way.... 0.28. Needles is really good and somehow hit Falcon sometimes even if he sweetspot way better than that example so if you are to far away to ht him eith anything else use that.

Matches I have been useing to help you with thise MU.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bL_irjGpfM - Amsah vs Jeapie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwVRR...eature=related - Armada against Nizro 3rd match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid...Kh8&feature=iv - Armada against Nizro first match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpbCBT1TGdg - You cam all this way....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3CPw3Rc6hY - M2k vs Mango


I wrote this to Amsah a while ago so that's why it maybe looks a bit weird like Im talking to him but now you know why. Really hope this will help and maybe Tope or someone can fill something in if I have forgot something.

Would like to hear what you think about this MU guide.


From page 218 in "Stuff that ends in fair".
Wrote this one a while ago and some matches maight be old but I that should not be a problem

 

[Mew2King]

Dude, this is one of the best I ever played (that's recorded) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xhGZebbqwg

that whole set actually. my trained reflexes as well as my controller were both much better then so i could have really solid execution on everything.

 

[.Ðempt]

I've actually been considering picking up Sheik lately, and for the most part, everything is pretty basic.

I do have a question though: When do you generally use U-Tilt? I know it's a good platform trapper, and helps set up for F-Tilt because of the second hit (and since Vanz has a pretty mean Sheik, he told me he likes to use a U-Tilt from OoS WD). But what else do you really use it for?

 

[silentSWAG]

up tilt is kind of like sheik's shield pressure. covers jump out of shield( or just regular jumps) and some people dont expect the second hit. i also use it for foxes full hop drill (as a counter attack)


you are amazing armada
im going through one of my phases where i use other people as my motivation (role model kind of thing)

 

[.Ðempt]

Yeah, it comes out pretty quick, so I can see that. I mean generally Sheik isn't too hard to pick up. You space your F-Tilts, Shield Pressure with U-Tilt and jabs. Grab when they aren't expecting it, then tech chase accordingly, followed by tech chasing --> punish (I like using U-Smash at mid percents to pop them up, plus it adds a little more damage then just an F-Tilt, at least I think).

But yeah, she's fun to play, plus it's an easy solution to Marth.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

shes fun to use till you play againts good spacies. Then its a nigthmare gettign hit by a random shine and gettting waveshined off teh state >_<

 

[Mew2King]

sheik barely loses to fox it's almost even imo. falco's a lot harder for her than fox since sheik can play the "i have more range than you" game all day with fox after getting close to him, but also kill fox really quickly with a few good guesses (where even if she guesses wrong she's not really even in a bad position anyway). Falco u rly gotta just be able to powershield his stuff or u can't approach well ur better off waiting with needles (needles trades damage really well compared to lasers, needles might even be a BETTER camping tool than lasers actually not 100% sure though).

 

[.Ðempt]

I generally don't mind spacies (a lot of my friends play them down here, so it's whatever) and actually enjoy a challenging matchup. Fox is fun to combo, and when played against correctly, he can't get inside Sheik. Falco is tougher imo, but maybe that's just me.

*Reads Jason's post*

Yeah, I agree. I think needles are a lot more annoying then lasers (especially as a Fox/Falco player, getting needled sucks). You really gotta be able to punish when they allow a window of vulnerability. Their approach is much stronger when they gain momentum and is hard to break unless you space accordingly.

 

[silentSWAG]

i think fox is my best match up

 

[The Great Gonzales]

sheik barely loses to fox it's almost even imo. falco's a lot harder for her than fox since sheik can play the "i have more range than you" game all day with fox after getting close to him, but also kill fox really quickly with a few good guesses (where even if she guesses wrong she's not really even in a bad position anyway). Falco u rly gotta just be able to powershield his stuff or u can't approach well ur better off waiting with needles (needles trades damage really well compared to lasers, needles might even be a BETTER camping tool than lasers actually not 100% sure though).

weird i feel the complete opposite, id preffer to figth againts Falco than fox, it feels like unless you get comboed into Dair sheik kills Falco much quicker than he kills her. When im playing againts fox i always seem to get shine-gimped XD

 

[KirbyKaze]

What do you do in the shiek vs falcon match up?

Falcon wins 10-0

 

[joejoe22802]

Well you want to be in the air a lot. Jump out of grabs. Make sure to use the red one, falcons like a bull so he'll be aggravated by that. On that note dash dash in his shield like you're a waving flag so you can bait him out of shield. When hes recovering never grab the edge, it is easier to cover options from the stage probably three character lengths away from the ledge so you can dodge his knee if he goes from that SS stuff. Also standing needles are surprisingly good.

 

[Sinji]

Sinji:

Ground game: Sheiks ground game is really good against Falcon and something you should use more. CC is really good against some of Falcons approaches (You against Jeapie 2.17 and M2k vs Mango 7.23). F-tilt has a lot of priority and beat/trade with a lot of falcons stuff and is fast (Me against Nizro 3rd match 0.20 and 1.35 - 0.27 first match). Those f-tilts also beat nair (connect to grab) but I can´t find a perfect example on that atm. You should also use more needles they are great at rack up damage and many people start appraoching cause they are not patient enough (trust me). But be careful cause they are a bit slow so don´t use them to much when they are on close range

Arieal/Plattform game: CF has retarted priority/hitbox with that uair so don´t use plattforms much. Situation you can use plattforms is if you have Falcon on close range (m2k vs Mango 6.08) The reason why Sheiks use plattforms sometimes when falcon is close to the plattform (not under) is beacause Falcon can´t coming from more than one angle pretty much but if you stay on plattform when he is far away he can come from a lot more of angles AND your needles becomes less effective (close range =needles works - far away= not)

Both Fair and Bair is okay but don´t use those arielas more than your ground game. Bair is more safe and connect to grab sometimes. Fair is less safe but connect to grab too (Me against Nizro third game 0.09). I guess mix up between them is good but I go more for bair in generall cause it is more safe.

Dashdance: Something that is really important in this MU and this is your key to beat many appraoches from Falcon and then grab him (No example here. Really bad I only have the first set I played Sheik against Falcon recorded). This is really good but the spaceing is a bit tricky but this is REALLY good. You maybe wonder why you just can´t f-tilt from what you have read so far but this can happen (Armada vs Nizro 3rd match 2.13). Falcon can also run then shield grab your f-tilt (if you don´t space 100% correctly which is hard sience he runs into you). So mix up between those too.

Edguarding: Really important point and once he is out he should not get in. If Falcon is coming back Never use fair (Amsah vs Jeapie 2.47). Instead use (M2k vs Mango 7.28). Use M2ks example on high damage (cause you can´t combo) and dair when he has high % enough to give you a free combo. With that I mean use the dair like you does with Falco. Like you should be closer to the center of the stage after you jump from the edge then Falcon (so he can´t DI into the stage pretty much) cause this gives you a free fair or in worst case scenario bair (turn around needle cancel fair is usefull sometimes). And ofc use traditioal bair from the edge when "normal" situations comes. Next really important point with edgeguarding is staying on the ground (main key for the MU). Compare your example against Hax (1.20 and 5.06) (You against Jeapie 1.05) with (Armada vs Nizro 3rd match 3.30) (M2k vs Mango 4.57). I know you maybe say it is a bit different BUT Hax didn´t even reached the plattform so he can´t come from a angle you can´t cover with that f-tilt. Look at (Me against Nizro 3rd match 3.26) staying on the ground in those situations is really good too. Reason is that Sheik is way to Slow in the air so stay on the ground as much as possible (no plattforms is really good for Sheik but wait work on other stages too if they don´t have enough space to plattfrom cancel it you know. The only situations you should jump off stage is if Falcon is coming way to high from above to stay on the ground (M2k vs Mango 4.30).

Throws: Compare (you against Jeapie 0.40 and 2.01) with (You came all this way....) (Me against Nizro the 2 first stock 3rd match) No plattforms on those matches but I think you can see how effective d-thorw is so never use uppthrow. Falcon has the worst roll in the game so play on reaction allways and be patient. If Falcon is on a plattforms but haven´t teched and you are close (in the middle under the plattform) wait. He can´t escape at all.

DI: Really hard part of the MU but in generall I prefer DI down away from Falcons combos. Falcon seems to have a hard time to combo Sheik is you use this DI (but ofc mix up). If you have around 60 % Falcon will use upp throw and a really good thing to do is DI into him from the throw and DI away down on the uair (they will use knee if you DI like that all the time so be carefull) they can´t combo you. The reason is cause they have no speed from the Uair sience you DI into him from the throw. My experience against a lot of Falcons is why I belive this works really good.

Pressure: Falcons always use their jabs so jump is ofc not so good in any form. What to do is hard to say but I guess just wait and then try to do something but not jump out from it at least.

Combos: Except from the d-throw part use reactions. Maybe it is boring but 0-deth Falcon is so easy. You came all this way... and my 3rd match against Nizro proves a lot of reactions (and that video is really old and my Sheik is way better than that cause I used random stuff cause I didn´t know the MU really good back then). Like always wait for the roll THEN go. Falcon can´t do anything against it and it works every singles time. Wait then do normal Sheik combos. Reactions is underrated in generall but don´t use it against Falcon pretty much all the time is bad I think (okay if you have a perfect read/feeling go for it but not to often). Many Falcons don´t tech all the time so then I guess you have to go for uppsmash sometimes. That is not reaction but when I say "do that" ofc I mean in generall. Jab reset is overrated and Falcons smash DI it a lot (like a lot of exmaple excist in your set aganst Hax). A mindgame that works many times is just walking to them and pretend you are going for a jab then they smash DI and just walks up and you can grab again (use sheld if they by misstake use a button too).

Weird NTSC stuff: (M2k vs Mango 2.40) stuff like this you have to check up by yourself cause Im not so famaliar with ntsc Sheik.

Random stuff: You came all this way.... 0.28. Needles is really good and somehow hit Falcon sometimes even if he sweetspot way better than that example so if you are to far away to ht him eith anything else use that.

Matches I have been useing to help you with thise MU.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bL_irjGpfM - Amsah vs Jeapie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwVRR...eature=related - Armada against Nizro 3rd match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid...Kh8&feature=iv - Armada against Nizro first match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpbCBT1TGdg - You cam all this way....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3CPw3Rc6hY - M2k vs Mango


I wrote this to Amsah a while ago so that's why it maybe looks a bit weird like Im talking to him but now you know why. Really hope this will help and maybe Tope or someone can fill something in if I have forgot something.

Would like to hear what you think about this MU guide.


From page 218 in "Stuff that ends in fair".
Wrote this one a while ago and some matches maight be old but I that should not be a problem

thanks for the advice.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Armada, some of your links are broken.

 

[Sinji]

yea the last one with m2k and mango got deleted

but i clicked on the link m2k showed.

 

[MegaRobMan]

sheik barely loses to fox it's almost even imo. falco's a lot harder for her than fox since sheik can play the "i have more range than you" game all day with fox after getting close to him, but also kill fox really quickly with a few good guesses (where even if she guesses wrong she's not really even in a bad position anyway). Falco u rly gotta just be able to powershield his stuff or u can't approach well ur better off waiting with needles (needles trades damage really well compared to lasers, needles might even be a BETTER camping tool than lasers actually not 100% sure though).

I think my problem may be that the Falcos are way further along than the Fox's in NE/KS/IA/MO, that being said I agree with this. Falcos lasers stop you in your tracks and his dair also stops you in your tracks. It's harder to get in vs Falco imo. Falcos CC is controller throwable sometimes. The only thing with Falco is that Falco dies at 60% when he's off stage where as Fox never ****ing dies off stage.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

I think my problem may be that the Falcos are way further along than the Fox's in NE/KS/IA/MO, that being said I agree with this. Falcos lasers stop you in your tracks and his dair also stops you in your tracks. It's harder to get in vs Falco imo. Falcos CC is controller throwable sometimes. The only thing with Falco is that Falco dies at 60% when he's off stage where as Fox never ****ing dies off stage.

thats probally why i find falco easier, i can gimp falco relatively easy, but againts Fox i always **** up and let him get on stage too easy

 

[Sinji]

I notice that you guys have most of the matchups, do you guys know the Samus and Doc. matchup? those are actually my worst match ups.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just don't tilt them when they're on the ground.

 

[Nedved]

Just don't tilt them when they're on the ground.

When I'm against Doc i just spam needle-> grab and ftilt->fair...

Just avoid CG, cause it's very painful and Doc will end the CG with AFA.
Recovering is the same, just go for platforms when you can.

About Samus, look for the Ice-Cyr match @ESA5

 

[Meljin]

Is it better to look over our character or the opponent's character ?

4 years ago (xD) one of the best French player told me that almost always looking over my opponent's character is one of the keys to reach the pantheon...
Even nowadays, I have some troubles looking at the opponent, especially when doing somewhat technical moves such as the dangerous Shino Stalls...

What do you think about it ?

 

[gm jack]

If your tech skill is on point, you shouldn't need to look at yourself at all (except occasional glances to confirm position). The only unpredictable thing (on most stages) is what your opponent is doing. If you are watching them, you will see what they are doing far sooner, and pick up on patterns a lot better than if you keep looking at yourself.

 

[Van.]

has anyone experimented with dthrow--> no impact land on YS or PS or wherever it works --> tipped upsmash? Even if it doesn't work, we could probably get it through sheer deceit every once in a while, and it would be a real crowd-pleaser

also if someone gets really good at run off needle canceling they should use it to edgeguard fox by standing facing forward--> mindgame them into going for the ledge--> ****

Q: Whats the deal with that u-throw-->jab-->regrab thing on spacies? Is it viable at all? even a little?

 

[soap]

i've been dthrow no impact land regrabbing instead of wavelanding

usmash seems too slow to really link out of anything

I'll try it out tho

 

[KirbyKaze]

has anyone experimented with dthrow--> no impact land on YS or PS or wherever it works --> tipped upsmash? Even if it doesn't work, we could probably get it through sheer deceit every once in a while, and it would be a real crowd-pleaser

Dropping through the platform into uair is cuter. Regrab is the best though.

also if someone gets really good at run off needle canceling they should use it to edgeguard fox by standing facing forward--> mindgame them into going for the ledge--> ****

I've done this vs Marths but tbh vs Fox you can cover that option or do less risky (similar) tricks much more easily.

Q: Whats the deal with that u-throw-->jab-->regrab thing on spacies? Is it viable at all? even a little?

Not at all.

 

[Mew2King]

weird i feel the complete opposite, id preffer to figth againts Falco than fox, it feels like unless you get comboed into Dair sheik kills Falco much quicker than he kills her. When im playing againts fox i always seem to get shine-gimped XD

it is because you don't play perfect falcos. I can jv 5 stock falcos that are unperfect. Falco is that type of character. He either is perfect and kills you, or he is unperfect and you kill him. I 4 stock more non-top falcos (if they arent a top 4 falco or something) than anyone else but I think the top level play is 100% reversed due to what options you have

 

[The Great Gonzales]

it is because you don't play perfect falcos. I can jv 5 stock falcos that are unperfect. Falco is that type of character. He either is perfect and kills you, or he is unperfect and you kill him. I 4 stock more non-top falcos (if they arent a top 4 falco or something) than anyone else but I think the top level play is 100% reversed due to what options you have

well i MM'ed Dr. Pepee when i went to Civil War, he 3-stocked me but i felt like i understood the macthup and was conftarble in it. He just simply played better than me. If your on their level thougth the macth-up is bad but winnable. I mean there is no such thing as perfect Falco since nobody is perfect, but i defenatly if somebody did play perfect the macth-up would be unwinnable. But arent all the spacey's like that lol if they play perfect nothing you can do? Good thing nobody is perfect

 

[mers]

Well you want to be in the air a lot. Jump out of grabs. Make sure to use the red one, falcons like a bull so he'll be aggravated by that. On that note dash dash in his shield like you're a waving flag so you can bait him out of shield. When hes recovering never grab the edge, it is easier to cover options from the stage probably three character lengths away from the ledge so you can dodge his knee if he goes from that SS stuff. Also standing needles are surprisingly good.

how did nobody acknowledge this amazing post?

 

[omgwtfToph]

well i mm'ed dr. Pepee when i went to civil war, he 3-stocked me but i felt like i understood the macthup and was conftarble in it. He just simply played better than me. If your on their level thougth the macth-up is bad but winnable. I mean there is no such thing as perfect falco since nobody is perfect, but i defenatly if somebody did play perfect the macth-up would be unwinnable. But arent all the spacey's like that lol if they play perfect nothing you can do? Good thing nobody is perfect

>_>

... >_>